Spring Budget: Wales

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Wednesday 29th March 2023 Westminster Hall

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Does the hon. Member agree that there is a discrepancy here? If UK Departments do not spend all their money within the financial year, it goes back to central UK Government. Surely, under any rational devolution settlement, there should be the same arrangement for Wales, so that if money is not spent by certain Departments in Welsh Government, it remains in Wales.

[Ruth Jones]

The right hon. Member makes the point perfectly well; that rule would be fair. Opposition Members will pick this issue up in the coming days, along with the issue of the inadequacies of the spring Budget, because it is a new case of robbing Wales to pay Westminster, and it cannot go on. We have seen this before with High Speed 2, an England-only project that should, according to a Welsh Affairs Committee report of 2021, be classified as such. The acknowledgment of this simple truth, which I and cross-party Welsh MPs spelled out to the Government nearly two years ago, would give Wales the £5 billion it is owed. We are seeing the same thing play out again with the Northern Powerhouse Rail project; that is another £1 billion that could and should have gone to Wales. That money would have a real and substantial effect there, but it has been withheld. The Secretary of State for Wales may have entirely ducked responsibility for his Government’s role in this matter, but we will not let this go.

Growth was downgraded in this Tory Budget. That will surprise nobody in Wales who is battling with rising inflation, rising energy bills and rising food costs. That is why Labour will not allow Wales to keep bumping along this path of managed decline from Westminster. I mentioned my constituent Dawn Jones in the Budget debate in the Chamber last week, and I mention her again here. She is a pensioner living in Caerleon who has worked all her life and now cannot afford to put the heating on. She has not had it on all winter because of the expense, and every time she goes to buy anything in the supermarket, she finds it has increased in price. She wrote to my office and said: 

“I am really struggling now with all these increases and do not know how I am going to pay my way; I am worried to death!”

It seems like every other day my constituency office receives more cases of desperate people who have found themselves at the end of the options for help and support. It is heartbreaking, and to be quite frank, it makes me deeply angry with those who have made the political choice to put my constituents in that position.

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[Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con)]

Prynhawn da. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone, in this important debate. I would like to say congratulations—llongyfarchiadau—and put on record my thanks to the UK Government for a Budget that is good news for my constituents on Anglesey, for Wales, and for the UK.

Before the Budget was announced, the Finance Minister in the Labour Government in Cardiff stated that:

“The Chancellor has the powers to…ease the challenges being experienced by households and businesses”,

and to

“support those most vulnerable—including practical actions to support people with energy costs, housing needs and welfare benefits.”

The Chancellor delivered. The energy price guarantee was kept at £2,500. There were new childcare plans to help working-age people get back into work, with 30 hours’ free childcare for children aged from nine months to four years—in England, at least; I understand there is still some doubt about what Wales will do with its share of the funding. I hope the Minister will enlighten us in his closing remarks. There is a new universal support scheme to help disabled people who want to work to do so, worth up to £4,000 per person.

Housing is a devolved matter. However, the Labour Government in Cardiff could have used some of their £155 million underspend, instead of always asking UK taxpayers for more and more money. I am delighted that the Chancellor delivered way more for Welsh people in the spring Budget than would have been delivered under the relatively low aspirations of Labour.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

The hon. Lady raised the matter of housing. It is worth considering the local housing allowance, the perimeters of which are set by the UK Government. Does she share my concern about a constituent of mine at Aberllenfenni, who faces an increase of £150 month in rent set by her landlord? No more can be paid in local housing allowance, because that is set at a lower level, at 25% of private rents. Does she agree that that should be raised by Westminster to 30%, to support people in private rental arrangements?

[Virginia Crosbie]

I thank the right hon. Member for her intervention. My concern is that Labour in Cardiff should be building more homes that people want, in locations where they want to live, including for young people starting off their life.

In addition to delivering the day-to-day support that people need with the cost of living crisis, caused by Russia’s illegal war against Ukraine, the UK Government have delivered hope, and a promise of long-term prosperity in Wales. We need to grasp that with both hands and work together for the benefit of the Welsh people. We have seen what working together in a constructive way means for Wales. It means a freeport on Anglesey, with 13,000 new jobs and £1 billion in economic investment.

The Budget is an example of how this Conservative Government are investing in Wales, and levelling up communities both north and south. Families across north Wales see that the UK Government, rather than the Labour one in Cardiff, are supporting the region with long-term investment and good-quality jobs. I was delighted that £20 million for the refurbishment of the Holyhead breakwater was announced in the Budget. That investment in a vital piece of infrastructure is important if we are to keep Holyhead from flooding, and are to attract new investment to the port—the second busiest roll-on, roll-off port in the UK. That follows the announcement of £17 million from the levelling-up fund to regenerate Holyhead town centre.

The funding will attract new investment and good-quality, long-term job opportunities for local people across the whole island. It will give Ynys Môn a new lease of life, and turbocharge the island’s economy. My island has one of the lowest levels of gross value added in the UK, with high levels of temporary and seasonal work. Every year, we lose young people, who move in search of decent employment elsewhere. My dad had to leave Wales to find work. These investments will ensure that other young people do not have to leave Wales. The UK Government are investing to protect our island’s communities and our Welsh language.

It is the nuclear energy announcements in the Budget that will have the greatest long-term impact on the people and economy of Ynys Môn, and across the whole of north Wales. That point was highlighted when the Chancellor mentioned Ynys Môn in his speech. Earlier this month, I wrote a letter to the Prime Minister, co-signed by 57 of my right hon. and hon. Friends, asking him to push ahead with Great British Nuclear, and to make new nuclear energy part of our green taxonomy. The steps the Chancellor took in the spring Budget underline the Government’s commitment to our long-term energy security and net zero. With energy independence and jobs in new nuclear, alongside renewable energy production, this country can become a more prosperous and balanced economy.

The Budget was overwhelmingly positive for nuclear in the UK: there was the launch of Great British Nuclear, and the labelling of nuclear as environmentally sustainable in the green taxonomy. It was also great to hear the Chancellor’s commitment to nuclear providing a quarter of Britain’s electricity. That means a massive ramp-up of new nuclear projects on a scale that we have not seen for a very long time. What does that mean for Wales? It means opportunity. GBN will make the delivery of new nuclear projects, including in Wales, much more efficient, enabling us to build vital new stations more quickly than ever before.

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[Beth Winter]

I beg to differ. If we look at local governments, there are very few with any significant reserves. For example, my local authority has experienced cuts in excess of £90 million since the start of austerity, and it has tapped into reserves significantly to meet the shortfall. I think the figure was about £30 million in the last year, although do not quote me on that. That is already happening, and local authorities do not have the reserves to which the right hon. Gentleman referred.

In terms of EU structural funds, Wales faces a £1.1 billion shortfall in funding—so much for “not a penny less, not a power lost”. I am interested to hear the Minister’s explanation for the significant shortfall in funding post EU.

On the levelling-up fund and the shared prosperity fund, the Tories’ record is one of failure, and the announcements in the Budget do very little to reverse more than a decade of austerity. One year on from the levelling-up White Paper, most places have lost out in the scramble for levelling-up funding. Millions have been wasted in the application process. Bids have been eaten up by inflation. My constituency has not received a penny, nor have other valley constituencies such as Blaenau Gwent or Torfaen. The UK Government’s shared prosperity fund was to replace EU structural funds, but funds have been cut, and the Welsh Government have been completely cut out of that process.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I am sure that the hon. Lady shares my concerns and those of Welsh universities, which face a risk to 1,000 jobs and 60 research projects because European structural funds are coming to a close. I am sure she will join me in asking the Minister whether the Government intend to come up with a £71 million bridging fund to enable Welsh universities to survive the period in which they are waiting for funding.

[Beth Winter]

I am just coming on to the university sector, where I worked for 10 years as a researcher and a trade union representative. Indeed, universities in Wales have been at the forefront of green growth and research in Wales and internationally, but with EU structural funding coming to an end, they face the loss of more than 1,000 skilled jobs, as the right hon. Lady said.

Swansea University, where I worked for many years, has been delivering on 50 projects awarded total grants of £150 million from EU structural funds. We have only to look at some of those projects—ASTUTE 2020 and SPECIFIC 2—to get a sense of that cutting-edge research. I was involved in lots of those projects; outstanding work is being undertaken. Universities have written to the Welsh Affairs Committee to say that there is little emphasis on research and innovation within the shared prosperity fund, and wider reforms of the funds are needed.

However, there was absolutely nothing in the Budget to deal with the failings of so-called levelling up and the shared prosperity fund. As the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) said, I am interested to hear the Minister’s response on how the Government will address the shortfall, with all those jobs at risk from the end of this month, as I understand it. Over 1,000 jobs could be lost in Wales.

Moving on to the legacy of the coal mines, the UK Government continue to benefit unduly from their share of the national mineworkers’ pension scheme. They should be paying that money to former mineworkers and their families, many of whom live in Cynon Valley. It is a continued failure of this Government that they have not funded the £600 million legacy costs of making the coal tips safe in Wales. As I said, we created the wealth in the south Wales valley. People sacrificed their lives in many instances. We deserve our fair share of that wealth back.

The UK Government’s record on housing is one of failure. The Bevan Foundation, which has been cited, has undertaken comprehensive research. Evidence shows that there is a shortage of properties to rent, and the local housing allowance rates set by the Tories do not cover real-world market rents. The data found that 75% of Welsh local authorities did not have a single property available at LHA rates, and just 1.2% of rental market properties advertised across Wales were available at LHA rates. The Bevan Foundation has called for rates to be uplifted, and for the collection of better, more comprehensive data from the private rental sector, yet the Budget again said nothing. I want to hear the Minister’s response to the issues with the LHA in Wales, which is a reserved matter.

On transport, the UK Government have continued the lie of designating not only HS2, but now Northern Powerhouse Rail as England and Wales projects, which should result in a total of £6 billion for the Welsh economy.

The Budget shows how urgently we need a change of Government in the UK. We need a completely different economic approach to deliver a new funding settlement for public services, and fully funded, inflation-proof pay rises for workers. We need the wealthiest in society finally to pay their fair share of tax. While the Tories will not do it, Wales requires fair, needs-based funding to be able to do what we want to do, which is to address the levels of inequality that are completely unacceptable and completely avoidable. The UK Government need to stop riding roughshod over the devolution settlement. The Budget showed why we need a UK Labour Government, who will work hand in hand with the Welsh Government to deliver and level up, lifting incomes and living standards and building an economy for future generations. Diolch yn fawr.

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[Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC)]

Diolch, Mr Hollobone; it is an honour to serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate the hon. Member for Newport West (Ruth Jones) on securing this important debate. It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards). I fear that I need not reiterate many of his points in my own speech because he made them so eloquently and effectively.

Before I address the substance of the spring Budget, it would be remiss of me not to comment on the report published earlier this week by the Senedd’s Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, which found that due to a budget underspend in 2021-22, the Welsh Government breached the limits of the Welsh reserve. Other Members have commented on that this afternoon. I would just add, echoing the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts), that it cannot be right—it is certainly inconsistent and illogical—that any underspend in a UK Government Department returns to the UK Government, but the same does not apply to any underspend in Welsh Government Departments.

I turn to the issues facing the spring Budget. High on the agenda was the rising cost of living. Much has been made of the measures included in the Budget that aimed to support households and businesses with energy costs. We have heard comments to that effect this afternoon. The Chancellor was right to identify that as a key concern, but given that energy bills are still expected to increase by some 17% next year, the Budget did not go far enough. To help families see out the spring, the Government could and should have considered extending the energy bills support scheme.

I do not dismiss the extension of the energy price guarantee, which will be a great service to a lot of people across Wales, but the measure does not offer the 74% of my constituents living in off-grid homes support with their fuel costs. There should be further support for off-grid households; I would welcome a further round of the alternative fuel payment, for example. It is difficult to deny the inconsistency in the level of support offered to off-grid households compared with those connected to the mains gas grid, and I am sure the Government would want to address that.

Meanwhile, small businesses have been left without any additional support with energy costs. We know of the increased percentage of business insolvencies last year in England and Wales. I fear that we will see a further escalation in insolvencies this year, unless the UK Government expand the energy bills discount scheme or at least require energy companies to allow small businesses to renegotiate their contracts early in order to reflect falling prices.

I mentioned that 74% of properties in my constituency of Ceredigion are not connected to the mains gas grid. Much has been made of the plight of households and rightly so, but for off-grid businesses, the situation is quite acute. They have been offered only a one-off payment of £150. We do not need to be experts in business to know that that falls woefully short of reflecting the increase in energy prices that these off-grid businesses have experienced over the past 18 months to two years.

Let us remember that these off-grid businesses are local post offices, village shops, swimming pools, and rural factories in Ceredigion—key pillars of rural society and economy, and the lack of meaningful support has placed them at a competitive disadvantage to those companies connected to the mains gas grid. When we consider that most off-grid businesses are located in rural areas, that failure surely flies in the face of the UK Government’s professed levelling-up agenda.

Of course, part of the long-term solution to bringing down energy bills for both households and businesses is to improve the energy efficiency of our buildings. I have previously called for the £6 billion committed to energy efficiency in the autumn statement last year to be brought forward in the term of this Parliament, but it is critical that the current energy company obligation schemes—the ECO schemes—are delivered properly.

E.ON Energy estimates that as of December 2022, only 11% of the ECO4 scheme obligation had been delivered, compared with an expected delivery rate of some 19%. By comparison, at the same point during the ECO3 scheme, it estimated that 29% of the obligation had been delivered.

The company has suggested that inflation is partly to blame for this underperformance, having escalated costs beyond the funding assumptions originally set for the installations. But it is also important to note that the scoring limitations of the scheme have set the bar far too high for the minimum improvements required for a property to be eligible for support under the scheme. The result is that many eligible households fail to secure an installer willing to undertake work on their properties. This is something the Government need to review with some urgency.

I now want to take a step back from the immediate issues facing households and society more broadly, and look at the longer-term problems. I echo many of the points that the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr made in his very eloquent speech. I agree that this Budget wasted an opportunity to tackle some of these longer-term productivity issues that have hampered prosperity in Wales for decades. I am concerned that businesses in Wales, particularly in rural areas, risk being left behind due to poor digital connectivity. For example, gigabit connectivity in Wales stands at some 50% compared to the UK average of 68%, and—as always—the problem is far more acute in rural areas, with only 27% of Ceredigion connected to gigabit internet.

We cannot allow rural areas to miss out on productivity-boosting technologies, whether that means simple broadband connectivity or the integration of new AI technologies. I therefore urge the UK Government to release the funding allocated to Project Gigabit without delay and in accordance with recommendations set out in the report of the Select Committee on Digital, Culture, Media and Sport. In addition, the Government should consider accelerating the timescales for the roll-out of gigabit broadband in very hard-to-reach areas, which often lack both fast broadband and a 4G signal. Sadly, many are located in my constituency of Ceredigion, and I know that the Minister is deeply aware of the impact of such notspots on the people living there.

The National Infrastructure Commission for Wales estimated that it would cost about £1.3 billion to connect every property in Wales with fibre-to-the-home technology, yet the Government have only released £1.2 billion of Project Gigabit funding so far for the entire UK. There is a real opportunity to boost productivity in all parts of the United Kingdom, if only the Government were willing to bring forward some of the funding that they have already allocated for this purpose. If fibre-to-the-home technology is too challenging in the short term, let us instead see greater effort made to expand projects designed to target very hard-to-reach areas, such as the rural small cell projects or work on gigabit-capable, fixed wireless access technology.

There must also be a way to reform the self-defeating systems that currently see fibre taken to the curtilage of some rural properties only for residents to be forced to pay exorbitant excess construction charges if they want that connection extended to their actual home—in other words, if they actually want it to work. In rural areas, where the curtilage of a property may lie some distance from the house, this is proving a real barrier to improved connectivity.

Another key area that should be prioritised if we are to boost the Welsh economy is, of course, renewable energy. Others are far more informed than I am on this topic and could make contributions, so I will just say that we have considerable generation potential along the Welsh coastline in both marine renewables and offshore wind, and an opportunity to seize a first-mover advantage in technologies such as offshore floating wind and become a world leader in the manufacture of components, and in the export of skills and expertise into a growing global market.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

There is a risk that we keep repeating ourselves, but there is a reason for us to do so. In Scotland, the Crown Estate 12 miles out to sea is devolved to Scotland, so that policy can be made in relation to it and the profits that arise from the Crown Estate remain in Scotland. Why, if it is good enough for Scotland, is it not good enough for Wales?

[Ben Lake]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for posing that question. It is indeed a question that keeps me up at night. Why is it good enough for Scotland but not good enough for Wales? Perhaps the Minister will address that point when he winds up.

The Welsh Affairs Committee recently published a report setting out that offshore floating wind technology could represent the single biggest investment opportunity in Wales for decades, and recommended that the UK Government take the necessary steps to ensure that its potential is realised. I very much hope that they do.

Wales desperately needs an economic strategy capable of providing adequate funding for its public services, reducing poverty, improving incomes and ensuring that we realise our potential contribution to the global effort of tackling climate change—a strategy that, I am afraid to say, the spring Budget did not deliver.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Dr James Davies)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I congratulate the hon. Member for Newport West (Ruth Jones) on securing this important debate, which has triggered many views from opposing directions. I am grateful to all those who have contributed, including my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Virginia Crosbie), the hon. Members for Cynon Valley (Beth Winter), for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), for Ceredigion (Ben Lake) and for Neath (Christina Rees), and of course the Opposition spokesperson, the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Gerald Jones).

I am pleased to have this opportunity to discuss the recent spring Budget and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor’s plan for long-term, sustainable, healthy growth in Wales and across the United Kingdom. I will come to the questions raised by hon. Members in due course.

I was incredibly pleased to see my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Wales on Ynys Môn last week announcing not just one but two new freeports for Wales. The jobs and investment that will come as a result of that announcement will help deliver on our commitments to level up Wales and grow the economy. The fact that we have been able to deliver two freeports for Wales jointly with the Welsh Government is a testament to what can be achieved when the two Governments work together. We saw friendly competitors from Ynys Môn and Preseli Pembrokeshire sitting next to each other earlier, and both of them had a critical role to play in that development, so many thanks to them.

Earlier this month, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor set out a Budget that ensures that the benefits of economic growth are felt everywhere, including in Wales. It promotes the conditions for enterprise to succeed and encourages the inactive back into employment. At the autumn statement in 2022, the Government took the difficult decisions on tax and spending needed to restore economic stability, support public services and lay the foundation for long-term growth. At the spring Budget two weeks ago, the Government built on that foundation with a plan to deliver on three of the Prime Minister’s five key priorities: to get debt falling, halve inflation and grow the economy.

I want first to highlight the funding that the Budget included for multiple projects that will specifically benefit Wales. We are supporting the restoration of the grade II* listed Holyhead breakwater with £20 million of funding for the Welsh Government to ensure the long-term viability of that vital transport hub and, through it, trade links with Ireland.

My right hon. Friend the Chancellor set out that the Government will provide up to £20 billion over the next two decades to support the development of carbon capture, utilisation and storage. That is not something we have heard about today, but the HyNet cluster in north-east Wales and north-west England is already benefiting from our existing £1 billion commitment through the cluster sequencing programme. Decarbonising heavy industry is vital to driving economic growth and creating high-quality, sustainable jobs across the region, while helping us meet our climate commitments. The increased £20 billion ambition will further expand CCUS across industry, which will be vital for economic growth across Wales.

The Government are launching Great British Nuclear to address constraints in the nuclear market and support new nuclear builds as the Government work towards net zero.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

It has already been mentioned that an SMR at the Trawsfynydd site, as well as at Wylfa, is very much in the anticipation. The Minister will be aware that there are proposals for a national medical isotope centre at Trawsfynydd, known as Project ARTHUR. What discussions have there been with the Welsh Government about bringing that forward? There are concerns that there will be a shortage as reactors across Europe and the world cease to produce. When it comes to the medical security of the United Kingdom, there is real potential here.

[Dr Davies]

The right hon. Lady is right to raise that point. If I may, I will write to her with the latest position on that, but she may find that there will be announcements in the relatively near future on Great British Nuclear and its plans, which might assist in that regard. We know that Wales has the best British sites for new nuclear, including Trawsfynydd in her constituency and Wylfa Newydd. I look forward to working with GBN to champion a revived nuclear future for north Wales.

Investment zones were mentioned. Wales, too, will benefit from the Government delivering 12 investment zones across the UK, including at least one in Wales. The programme will provide each successful area with up to £80 million over five years to grow a cluster in one of our key future sectors, bringing investment into areas that have traditionally underperformed economically.

The UK Government are working with the devolved Administrations to develop an investment zone programme for each of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. In addition, the UK Government and devolved Administrations will work together to explore potential options for delivery of new levelling-up partnerships in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, such as those announced for England by the Chancellor in the Budget.

The Budget set out a number of measures that will create the right conditions for enterprise in Wales in all sectors, based on competitive taxes, access to capital and smarter regulation. We will support growth in Wales by attracting the most productive companies to set up, invest and grow in Wales and in the rest of the UK. We expect about 220,000 businesses in Wales to benefit from a range of administrative changes to simplify the tax system, allowing Welsh small and medium-sized enterprises to spend more time on their business and less on meeting their tax obligations.

During the debate, there were a multitude of questions on all sorts of issues. I will do my best to address as many of those as possible. I should declare first that I am a member of the British Medical Association, although I do not expect to benefit from the pension changes myself. Last week, I met the chair of the BMA, Philip Banfield, whom I know from his time as a consultant at Glan Clwyd Hospital. Glan Clwyd, like many in Wales, is struggling, as the Healthcare Inspectorate Wales report has detailed yet again today, so anything that can help to retain senior doctors’ hours and their presence in departments is certainly to be welcomed.

Oral Answers to Questions

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Wednesday 1st March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call Liz Saville Roberts.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Lefarydd, a dydd gŵyl Dewi hapus i chithau ac i bawb—happy St. David’s Day to everybody.

Although the Minister might blame the mountains, it is evident that poor connectivity in rural areas is clearly one of the factors holding businesses back. Another is trade barriers, particularly for Holyhead. Pre-Brexit, about 30% of all trade through the port went on to Northern Ireland from Dublin. That trade has collapsed and it is not protected by green lanes. Stena Line says that there needs to be a solution to this disparity. Can he come up with a solution to protect Holyhead from his Government’s policy?

[Dr Davies]

The right hon. Lady recently attended a debate that I responded to in Westminster Hall, where she was making the case for a freeport in Holyhead. She knows that there are opportunities, through freeports, to boost the trade through Holyhead and other ports in Wales that are seeking the same designation. I urge her to continue that fight.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I urge his Government to come forward with news, because Wales desperately needs two freeports at least.

The Prime Minister said yesterday that Northern Ireland is in the “unbelievably special position” of having privileged access not just to the UK market, but hey, to the EU single market. That is an excellent argument for Plaid Cymru’s policy to rejoin the single market. Why is it not good enough for Wales?

[Dr Davies]

Wales voted to leave the EU quite decisively. The right hon. Lady knows that the situation in Northern Ireland is really quite different from that in Wales, and this is a carefully put together deal to accommodate that situation. I feel quite sure that the EU is not in the business of allowing what she suggests.

Freeports: Wales

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Tuesday 21st February 2023 Westminster Hall

[Stephen Crabb]

The hon. Gentleman makes a crucial point. He is absolutely right that the Crown Estate must ensure those contracts have teeth. That will be crucial to ensuring that developers deliver on their commitments because, as he knows, it is one thing for them to speak to us politicians and tell us about all the good things they will do in our communities, but actually making sure they do them when push comes to shove is another.

The other part of the equation is ensuring that we get the contracts for difference right and ensuring that the financial architecture around floating offshore wind is the right one to enable that investment in the UK and Welsh economies. Of course, there is a potential first-mover advantage waiting for the nation that makes the biggest and earliest strides to deploy floating offshore wind at an industrial scale. The Welsh Affairs Committee was recently in the US and met with a floating offshore wind developer there who was also looking to develop in the Celtic sea. They have secured seabed leases off the coast of New York and in California. There is a global race to be the first nation to see serious industrial-scale deployment of offshore wind, and I believe it should be Wales and the UK that does that.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Wales, indeed. Does the right hon. Gentleman join me in wondering whether Wales would be able to put better procurement requirements in place and ensure that the benefits are accrued more effectively to Wales if the Crown Estate, as in Scotland, was devolved to Wales?

[Stephen Crabb]

It pains me to disagree with the right hon. Lady, but the debate about devolving the Crown Estate is a red herring. It is a question that I have explored with potential developers and something I have discussed with the Crown Estate and other potential players in this field. That will not be the critical intervention to ensuring this vision is realised in the way that we all hope. I appreciate some of the arguments she is making about the devolution of the Crown Estate, and she has made them articulately before in this Chamber, but, as I say, it is something of a red herring.

The freeport intervention would be a critical intervention in helping to unleash and launch this new, exciting industry for Wales. I hope that when the UK Government and the Welsh Government sit down together to assess the bids, they will look at the strength of the industrial proposition behind the Celtic freeport bid. I grew up in Wales and have been a politician in Wales long enough to have seen a lot of failures of economic development around Wales. So much public money has been thrown at different schemes and interventions over the years—so often they seem to have the word “park” in them: food park, science park, tech park and so on—that never really achieve the vision and potential that politicians hoped for when they were spending taxpayers’ money because very often there is no real substance behind them.

I hope that in making this freeport intervention, the Government recognise that they need to work with the grain of the private sector and industry and recognise where real, substantial projects are already starting to happen—in Port Talbot, the port of Pembroke and Milford Haven—and capture that and work with it. That is what will deliver real economic and social benefits for our communities in the way that freeports are intended to do. If the UK Government want to improve our energy security, help us to take a big step towards meeting our net zero ambitions and invest in creating good-quality jobs and training opportunities in our constituencies—that is the essence of levelling up and rebalancing the economy, as it would mean that young people do not have to leave their communities in Wales to work elsewhere, allowing them to stay and be part of those communities, to build and to raise their children there—they will recognise the strength of the Celtic freeport bid and what it proposes. I really hope that the Government take this opportunity and give us the freeport status that we are looking for to help to create this new industrial revolution.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

It is an honour to serve with you in the Chair, Mr Vickers. It is also an honour to follow my friends, the hon. Members for Ynys Môn (Virginia Crosbie) and for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) and the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb). It will probably be noticed that I am the only Member present not representing a constituency that would be directly affected by these freeports, although I have a professional interest in Holyhead, where I used to be a news reporter, and a family interest in Milford Haven, where my daughter works for the tug companies.

I was very interested in what the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire said about the significance of freeports for the economic, social and cultural fabric of Wales. As I have the opportunity now to respond, I must take issue with what he said about the Crown Estates. What we have seen much in Wales is a history of extraction from our resources and infrastructure. If the Crown Estates were devolved to Wales, we in Wales would have far more control over the nature of supply lines and procurement and what we choose to emphasise, in the way that Scotland does in Scotland. The way that something has always been done in the past may not actually reflect the best that we can do in the future. Historically, we have seen that loss. The first places that lose out on economic development in Wales have historically been the furthest west, as well.

Alongside the co-working happening here, there is a different sort of co-working happening already in Wales with the Welsh Government aspect of the freeport programme. I would like to put a couple of things on the record to show how different what is happening in Wales is, because it is important for us to be aware of that. The prospectus that initiated the 12-week bidding process—published back in September—included a commitment that a freeport or freeports in Wales would operate in a manner that aligns with the Welsh Government’s policies on fair work and social partnership, where

“workers are fairly rewarded, heard and represented, and can progress in a secure, healthy, and inclusive working environment, where their rights as workers are respected.”

TUC Cymru also welcomes the involvement of trade union representation in the governance of freeports in Wales. Can the Minister say what estimate there is of the impact of national insurance variations within freeport development zones and how that might play out against the Welsh Government’s views and stated intentions on how freeports should operate?

The freeport development proposed for Holyhead is also the result of a long-term partnership between Stena, the ferry company, and Cyngor Ynys Môn. Stena, of course, is the harbour authority for Holyhead. The Senedd Member for Ynys Môn, Rhun ap Iorwerth, raised the discrepancy between the initial offer of £8 million in seed funding for the Welsh freeports and the £26 million for freeports in England, which ensured that the funding level was on the Welsh Government’s agenda. We now have a commitment that freeports in Wales will be funded to the tune of £26 million.

The right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire mentioned that he was concerned that there might be “optical or political purposes” in proposing two freeports for Wales. I think that it is essential to have viable ongoing projects for two freeports in Wales.

[Stephen Crabb]

Just to clarify, that remark about “optical or political purposes” was a quote from the Welsh Affairs Committee report. It was not just a personal opinion.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I stand corrected and welcome that, but I think there is a really important question here for the Minister, and I press him for a response. My understanding is that for Wales to have two freeports, two exceptional cases have to be made. Now that we appear to be approaching the time when announcements are going to be made, it is important to know what constitutes an exceptional case, because we have two communities—three if we include Port Talbot—that have great expectations. Can the Minister clarify whether the bids are being assessed by both the Welsh and UK Governments? Will the Welsh Government have a meaningful say on whether the two bids meet the requirements? I would appreciate a response on that. Given the initial revelation that a lower level of funding was being allocated for a freeport in Wales, if both freeport applications are successful, will they both receive £26 million in initial funding?

[Virginia Crosbie]

The right hon. Member is making an excellent speech. Does she agree that it is going to be £25 million, plus the £1 million—not only in Wales, but in Scotland? In addition, there has been a one-year delay while the deliberations have gone on. This means that we have lost out on potential investment and skills that could have been transformational not only to Wales, but to the wider economy.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I agree; this is a critical part of levelling up. One of my personal interests in this is support for communities in the far west. Next, I will look at some of the concerns that have been expressed in relation to displacement and freeports per se. The fact that these applications are in the far west is possibly beneficial—as long as we know the details—to other areas around those freeports, so it is important.

There are concerns for north Wales, given that the Liverpool city region has been granted a freeport. I would be interested to know whether the UK Government have made an assessment of the likely impact on the north Wales economy of the possibility of displacement to the east, and the significance of that for decisions on the two freeport bids. Bearing in mind that we have had the terrible news that the 2 Sisters meat processing factory in Llangefni is due to close, with the loss of 700 jobs—I understand that many of those jobs are located in Gwynedd, so they are within my own home county—what assessment has been made of displacement, in favour of or as a risk to other counties that could be affected by development? There are concerns here, and it is due diligence for us to know what assessment has been made of them, particularly in relation to Liverpool but also locally in relation to Anglesey. What pros and cons have been put forward?

Much has been made of the freeport bids in Wales and how they could play a critical role in accelerating the renewables revolution, but we must remember that freeports are not the only aspect. The UK Government should make it clear that energy security is a priority. Can the Minister guarantee that they will work alongside the Welsh Government with areas whose bids have not been successful, to make sure that they receive strategic investment, too? The very fact that a bid has been made shows that a need has been recognised.

My next question is about governance and monitoring. We have heard that the parameters for bids are different in England and Wales, with the emphasis in Wales being on meeting the goals of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 on social partnership and on safeguards for the environment and workers’ rights. How will the UK Government work with the Welsh Government to realise that? Those are very worthy goals, and they make it easier for me and for my party to stand here and support the bids, but I want to know how they are going to move ahead.

I have a question on the national grid. In its report on the grid in Wales, the Welsh Affairs Committee warned that we in Wales would be unable to realise our full renewables potential without expanding grid capacity. The Government refused in their response to commit to undertaking an assessment of current grid capacity in Wales. In recognition of the fact that the lack of a fully functioning grid will undermine any freeports in Wales, will the Minister look again at delivering the Welsh Affairs Committee’s recommendations on the national grid? It is critical to future developments in both projects.

To close, I will emphasise the bid in Holyhead and Ynys Môn, which is the closest one to my constituency. Great Britain’s land bridge has lost 20% of its trade, and that is down to Brexit, which has had a direct effect on the economy of Ynys Môn. It is recognised that that link is important to Holyhead, Ynys Môn, north Wales and the whole United Kingdom. The degree of partnership between the hon. Member for Ynys Môn; the local authority, Cyngor Sir Ynys Môn; the port authority, Stena; and the north Wales Senedd Members—there was cross-party representation in a letter that they wrote yesterday to Vaughan Gething, the Minister for the Economy in Wales—shows that there is co-ordination and a real desire for co-working in these projects. Fundamentally, the Welsh economy, our communities and our young people deserve and need the two projects to move ahead to see the best benefit for Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Dr James Davies)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Vickers, and to make the winding-up speech in a Westminster Hall debate for the first time.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Virginia Crosbie) on securing the debate—I know how hard she works for the island—and thank other Members for articulating their views. Happily, we have heard a range of opinion, from north Wales and from south Wales, in support of the Anglesey bid and the Celtic freeport bid. For balance, there is a third bid in Wales, centred around Newport.

We have had an excellent debate, and I am pleased to have the chance to set out the opportunities being created by the freeports programme in Wales, as well as how it, along with other UK Government support and investments, will help to level up communities the length and breadth of the UK. As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor said last month, the Government are committed to ensuring that the benefits of economic development are felt everywhere—not just in London and the south-east, but across the UK. The Government intend to do that by spreading opportunities more equally across the country, empowering local leaders and bringing left-behind communities up to the level of more prosperous areas.

In that regard, freeports are already playing a key role in creating hundreds of thousands of jobs across the UK and helping to drive economic growth by attracting investment to their local areas and regions. Our new freeports programme in Wales, which is being delivered with the Welsh Government and backed by £26 million, of which £25 million is seed capital and £1 million Government support, will help us to make the vision a reality.

The freeports programme is one of the core parts of the Government’s levelling-up agenda, and it will look to incentivise private businesses to invest in new opportunities in Wales. We have worked constructively with the Welsh Government to design a bespoke freeports model that will deliver for Wales. It will make the most of the unique opportunities in Wales, which will ultimately benefit businesses, ports and communities across Wales.

The Wales freeports model is based on three main objectives: promoting regeneration and high-quality job creation, establishing at least one freeport as a hub for global trade and investment across the economy, and fostering an innovative environment. Freeports are magnets for investment, and businesses located in freeports will benefit from a generous package of measures comprising tax reliefs, customs advantages, business rate relief, innovation, and trade and investment support. Those tools, paired with the ambitious £26 million of public investment in seed funding, will unlock much-needed investment and high-quality jobs not just for businesses located in the freeport, but for the surrounding areas and regions.

The freeports programme will drive forward our ambitions for Wales to compete at a global level while creating new high-skill, high-wage and local jobs, putting Welsh communities on the path to long-term growth and prosperity. The freeport programme in Wales will, once the competitive process concludes, join the freeports in England and the green freeports in Scotland to help to deliver the UK Government’s levelling-up ambitions.

The operational freeports in England are already delivering jobs and investment across local areas such as Plymouth, Solent and Teesside. The newest operational freeports—the Liverpool city region freeport and freeport east, announced at the end of last year—will also drive investment and industrial growth to deliver thousands of skilled jobs for local communities and regions.

The process in Wales is well under way and I, like many others, look forward to the benefits the programme can bring to communities in Wales. We and the Welsh Government have committed to delivering at least one freeport in Wales, and we both remain open to considering the designation of an additional freeport if there are sufficient exceptional bids. Unfortunately, as we are still in a competitive process for Wales, I am unable to comment on individual applications. However, I look forward to seeing the outcome of the competition process and thank all those who developed the bids submitted in Wales.

I very much welcome the contributions to the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn powerfully articulated her arguments for the Anglesey freeport. She focused on net zero, the need to boost trade flows, energy and, of course, jobs.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) asked about Northern Ireland. He is no longer in his place, but I should say that discussions about extending the freeport programme to Northern Ireland are ongoing.

The hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) spoke about green energy—in particular, his desire to see the success of the floating offshore wind agenda—and energy security. My right hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) echoed those comments. He particularly wanted to highlight the importance of job opportunities, energy companies in his patch, and the decarbonisation of the industrial cluster in his part of the world. He, too, spoke about floating offshore wind and the importance of the supply chain.

The right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) kindly presented me with a lengthy list of questions, which I will do my best to answer. First, she asked about national insurance. Freeports will introduce secondary class 1 NI contributions relief for eligible employers on the earnings of eligible employees working at a freeport tax site. I am happy to find out further detail for her in due course if she writes or speaks to me.

I welcomed the right hon. Lady’s general support for the concept of freeports and having as many as possible in Wales. She highlighted her long-standing view that the Crown Estate should be devolved. Particularly in the Celtic sea, the opportunities for floating offshore wind relate also to south-west England, not just Wales, so my personal view is that breaking up the Crown Estate would not assist in that endeavour.

The right hon. Lady asked what constitutes an exceptional case. Essentially, the process is being judged equally by officials in the Welsh Government and the UK Government, and Ministers in both Governments will have equal decision-making powers. It is for them to judge the exceptionality of the cases based on what is submitted to them, but all will become clear in due course.

The right hon. Lady asked whether, were there to be more than one freeport, there would be two or more allocations of the £26 million. I can tell her that yes, that is the intention. She asked about the freeport in Liverpool. As she knows, Growth Track 360 held a reception here yesterday. Liverpool is of course an important element of the north-east Wales economy, and success in Liverpool’s economy benefits north-east Wales, so I urge her to bear that in mind.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I am grateful for the Minister’s explanations and responses to my questions. It is worth putting on the record that Liverpool will have an effect on the whole of north Wales, along the A55 and into Ynys Môn. That is another argument for a counterbalance in the north-west for Caergybi, because that will, I hope, see developments across the north-west of Wales and into other counties, such as Gwynedd and Conwy.

[Dr Davies]

In many respects, the right hon. Member is making the case for investment across north Wales and into Anglesey. The agenda to upgrade infrastructure to link in with the north-west of England is also important to benefit north Wales. I hope that I covered most of her questions; should she have others, I am happy to answer them.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

There was one other question about reconsidering grid capacity in Wales. I would be grateful for a response to that.

[Dr Davies]

The right hon. Member makes a good point. Clearly, the Welsh Affairs Committee has considered these issues in detail. They are important to me, and the role of the Wales Office is to liaise with the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, as it is now called, to ensure that grid capacity meets aspirations. I assure her that I hope to have that influence.

Oral Answers to Questions

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd November 2022 Commons Chamber

[David T. C. Davies]

I am quite happy to support a tax rise to make sure that the living wage goes up. I will support tax rises to make sure that pensions and benefits can go up in line with inflation. What I still have not heard from the hon. Lady, or indeed from the many Labour Members whom I hear on the radio talking about taxation and borrowing, is where exactly they would find the extra money that they want to use to increase spending on public services.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I too welcome the Secretary of State to his place. I am sure that he will join me in expressing llongyfarchiadau—congratulations—to the Wales football team on their performance. If there had only been a third half, we would have been the winners.

The Chancellor told us last week that his financial statement was based on British values. The Wales Governance Centre calculates that, because of failed economic strategies—mostly by his Government—average Welsh incomes will, by 2027, be £10,300 lower than if pre-financial crisis growth levels had been sustained. As the Conservatives prepare to squander another decade, should the people of Wales take it that the British values of the Secretary of State’s Government stand for relentless grinding poverty?

[David T. C. Davies]

In the first instance, I thank the right hon. Lady for her kind words. Of course, I will be happy to say llongyfarchiadau i’r wal goch—congratulations to the red wall—in a few days’ time.

As far as the Government’s economic policies are concerned, I remind her that the Government have had to deal with the after-effects of a financial collapse partly caused by the previous Labour Government, the effects of a covid crisis that has cost £400 billion, and the effect of a land war in Europe. Despite all that, this Government have quite rightly prioritised the least well off in our society, and I am very proud of our economic record.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Today of all days, we must look forward to how the democracy of these isles will best serve our people, particularly the people of Wales. In June, I asked the Deputy Prime Minister whether his so-called Bill of Rights would include the right to self-determination. He did not give me a direct answer, so I will ask the Secretary of State. Will he support the inclusion in the Bill of Rights of the right to self-determination for the peoples of the devolved nations, or does he not believe that Wales should have the right to decide our own destiny?

[David T. C. Davies]

Wales has decided its own destiny in several referenda recently. It decided that it would like a devolved Administration, which is something that this Conservative Government will fully support. Wales voted to leave the European Union, which I fully supported, but I am not sure the right hon. Lady or her party did. I fully respect the self-determination of the Welsh people to leave the EU, and I look forward to her support on that one in the future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Sir Robert Buckland]

I find it concerning that the hon. Lady does not share my enthusiasm for freeports and investment zones. I think of examples from the past in Wales, when inspirational Secretaries of State such as the late Lord Crickhowell, Peter Walker and Lord Hunt of Wirral demonstrated that, through enterprise zones and, for example, the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation, the economy could be transformed and regenerated. I am confident that our approach to investment zones will ensure that Wales shares in the growing prosperity that we want to see throughout our United Kingdom. I believe it will generate more investment and grow that economic pie, which is the aspiration of this Government.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

This Government have been forced to U-turn on their fundamental ideology that slashing taxes magically leads to economic growth. That same ideology underpins freeports and investment zones. Both will shrink the UK Government’s tax revenue and, in turn, the Welsh Government's budget, which is already facing a £4 billion shortfall. With inflation now over 10%, what is the Secretary of State doing in the Cabinet to protect Wales’s budget?

[Sir Robert Buckland]

I yield to none in my admiration for the right hon. Lady, but she has just laid bare Plaid Cymru’s ideological approach. Her party believes that there should be an ever-shrinking share of wealth, which means that our public services would decline. We on this side of the House believe that the way in which to pay for public services is to grow our economy, and it is through initiatives such as the freeports and investment zones that we will do just that. I hope that the Welsh public will note Plaid Cymru’s ideological opposition to growth.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

The Secretary of State is on record as saying that he believes it is right to make cuts in public spending—and that was before last week's multiple U-turns. According to the Glasgow Centre for Population Health, the last Tory austerity experiment led to 335,000 excess deaths. How many excess deaths is the Secretary of State prepared to justify this time round?

[Sir Robert Buckland]

I am sorry, but hyperbole from the right hon. Lady does not help her case at all. We are not talking about so-called austerity; we are talking about ensuring that the money allocated in the public spending round that was agreed last year is spent efficiently and wisely. I said that it was right for each Department to look carefully at its priorities to ensure that frontline services—the sort of services in which I know she and I believe—are maintained for the benefit of the citizens whom we serve.

Oral Answers to Questions

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Wednesday 6th July 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call Liz Saville Roberts, for Plaid Cymru.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Birmingham, Crewe, Derby, Doncaster, Newcastle-upon-Tyne and York: that is the shortlist of cities for the headquarters of Great British Railways. The Secretary of State failed to get a single Welsh location as a candidate. Is he not embarrassed at his dismal track record in Cabinet despite being a loyal Government spokesman?

[Simon Hart]

I love it when the right hon. Lady, who is so determined to separate her country from the rest of the UK economy, lists a whole lot of stations and locations in England. There are either separatists or Unionists and I never know with her which side she is batting for. This is about our delivery in Wales, because in a sense she is asking me to choose between the Welsh Government and the UK Government. I am very proud to be part of a Government who have produced £121 million-worth of levelling-up funds, £46 million-worth of community ownership funds, £585 million-worth of shared prosperity funds, the floating offshore wind potential of the Celtic sea, the potential for nuclear at Wylfa, project Gigabit, Airbus investment at Broughton—the list goes on and on. All we get, as I said to the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jo Stevens), is negativity.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

The Secretary of State defends an infrastructure that is extractive for Wales and brings nothing back. Time and again, the Secretary of State has been rolled out to defend the indefensible on behalf of the Prime Minister. The outgoing Children’s Minister said that he

“accepted and repeated assurances on Monday to the media which have now been found to be inaccurate.”

Two Cabinet Ministers have gone and the Secretary of State’s Parliamentary Private Secretary has gone—it is not business as usual, is it? When will he be going?

[Simon Hart]

I thank the right hon. Lady for that tempting question. It is business as usual in the Wales Office, and that is why I am proud to repeat what I said just now: we are getting on with the levelling-up fund, the community renewal fund and the shared prosperity fund. We have investment across every part of Wales, and despite all her protestations, there is so much evidence that being part of the Union is part of the success of Wales in creating sustainable, long-term jobs. I dearly wish she would come and join us in the endeavour to improve the life of people in Wales, rather than using cheap political opportunities to do the opposite.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Prime Minister]

Clearly, if there were circumstances in which I felt it was impossible for the Government to go on and discharge the mandate that we have been given, or if I felt, for instance, that we were being frustrated in our desire to support the Ukrainian people, or over some major point, then I would. But frankly, Mr Speaker, the job of a Prime Minister in difficult circumstances, when he has been handed a colossal mandate, is to keep going, and that is what I am going to do.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Well, there you have it, Mr Speaker. Once again, the Prime Minister puts political survival before public duty. However, people can see that even if he goes—it is not an if; it is a when, isn’t it?—the same Westminster arrogance will continue to dictate our futures in Wales. Does the Prime Minister want a medal for being the best recruiting sergeant for independence we could wish for?

[The Prime Minister]

Actually, whenever I look around the United Kingdom—I had a great talk with Mark Drakeford the other day, as well as talking to Nicola Sturgeon—I see the bonds of our Union being strengthened all the time, and I am confident that that will continue.

Support for the Welsh Economy and Funding for the Devolved Institutions

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2022 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

We have discussed that very point at the Select Committee; indeed, just a fortnight ago, the Secretary of State was questioned on it by colleagues on the Committee. We know from previous arguments that it is not always easy to pinpoint the exact details of the totality of spending in Wales, but the general argument that Wales does not receive a “fair share” of funding is a constant theme in Welsh politics. I imagine that will continue long after we have all moved on from this place.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

rose—

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

rose—

[Stephen Crabb]

I will give way to the right hon. Lady and then to the hon. Gentleman—I am sure I have just opened the door to a whole host of problems.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his work on the Welsh Affairs Committee and for bringing the debate forward. We are talking about levelling up. One issue is that the Crown Estate is devolved in Scotland but not in Wales. Does he agree that, with the Celtic sea floating wind investment in south-west Wales in the offing, Wales needs the means to equip itself to grow and not just to be dependent on handouts from Westminster, which is one of the ways that levelling up is explained? Consistency between Wales and Scotland would enable Wales to grow its own economy and, most significantly, the local supply chains that would go alongside that sort of investment. Wales could manage that most effectively for Wales’s need.

[Stephen Crabb]

I do not agree that devolution of the Crown Estate in Wales is necessary to achieve the birth and success of a floating offshore wind industry, which so many of us want to see. We have a fabulous opportunity opening up in the Celtic sea, as confirmed by the Crown Estate today. There are lessons that can be learned from the ScotWind process, but for me, devolution of the Crown Estate is a red herring.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Crabb]

I agree with the hon. Member, who pre-empts a point that I was going to make about levelling up. We want interventions that genuinely move the dial. If there was a weakness in the first round of funding, it was the very tight timescales, with local authorities told to get on with it very quickly. Indeed, the Public Accounts Committee recently drew attention to some of the weaknesses in that process.

We want projects that move the dial, but I say gently to the hon. Member that I remember my time as Welsh Secretary, and never a week went by without an Opposition Member knocking on the door of the Wales Office and asking whether there was not a pot of money somewhere in the UK Government to support a project in a constituency in the valleys or elsewhere in Wales. For the first time, the UK Government are making available pots of money that allow us to be involved in partnership with our local authorities on the ground, working to identify solutions to needs. That is tremendously exciting, and I encourage him to be an enthusiastic participant in that. However, he makes an important point about the broader economic context and things that genuinely move the dial.

If there is one part of the United Kingdom that is crying out for meaningful levelling up, it is Wales. I dislike very much the “older, sicker, poorer” narrative, which gets deployed time and again when we discuss the economy in Wales. Too often, it is used as an excuse for mediocrity, complacency and tolerance of poor performance, rather than as something that drives us in Wales to say that we are not going to carry on repeating the same old mistakes of the past. But there is truth behind the narrative. Look at economic output in Wales: in 2020, it was around 3.5% of all the economic output in the UK. That is lower than Wales’s share of the UK population, which is 4.7%. Wales is not punching its weight economically. Economic output per head in Wales is around £24,000, and the UK-wide average is more than £32,000. That is quite some gap.

During the decade from 2010 to 2020, annual economic growth in Wales averaged around 0.8%, similar to the UK average. We could be complacent and say, “Well, we’re in line with the UK average,” but that is not good enough. If we are going to close the economic gap in Wales, we need to grow significantly faster than the rest of the UK. For me, that is really what the objective of levelling up should be. What are the interventions that can move the dial and help the Welsh economy get to another level where we see more, better jobs created that pay more money and are more sustainable for our communities?

I draw Members’ attention to the Office for National Statistics population statistics that came out—

[Liz Saville Roberts]

The right hon. Gentleman is very kind to take a second intervention. I am sure that the Welsh Affairs Committee is considering the need for interventions and investment that would shift the dial. Does he agree that improvements to the National Grid—in particular, an interconnector between north and south Wales, as proposed by National Grid ESO—really would shift the dial? The potential to feed more into the grid, and the generation that we could then have in Wales, would make such a difference to the economy.

[Stephen Crabb]

I agree with the right hon. Lady’s point about infrastructure—the Committee is looking at that at this very moment—but there is a broader point. Right across different forms of infrastructure in Wales, we are decades behind other parts of the UK. In our rail network and parts of our road network, there is so much work to be done to create the basic infrastructure that can support a modern, 21st-century economy. We all want to protect our own little corners of Wales and keep them nice and quaint. The truth is that if we are happy to stay at that level, we will find that all the properties are bought up by second home owners and there are very few high-quality jobs and training opportunities to keep our young families living there.

That takes me to the point that I was going to make about the population data. There is a real problem when we see a significant drop in the population in places such as Ceredigion—those Welsh-speaking communities in western Wales. That does not bode well for the future. We have parts of Wales with declining populations; overlay the ageing demographic, and that points to some deep-seated underlying challenges. It should be the ambition of us all, whatever our political colours, to address that.

I will make one more point and then let other Members get in on the debate. I come back to the issue of floating offshore wind in the Celtic sea, so let me speak parochially for a moment. In my constituency, that represents one of the most important and valuable economic opportunities that is emerging, as was confirmed today in the statement by the Crown Estate. If we are to make the most of this opportunity in Wales and not look back on it as another missed chance to do something significant—if we are to capture its full economic value—some big things need to start happening. We need the port infrastructure in Wales, particularly in south Wales, that can handle these mammoth turbines that are going to be built. We need work on the design of the contract for difference scheme, because some of the developers have real concerns when they look at the Celtic sea opportunities and what is already being leased out in Scotland, and questions are being raised. Will the Scottish economic opportunity outmuscle what is available in Wales? There is a real issue associated with the design of the CfD scheme.

As for the supply chain, we need to ensure that we have jobs and training opportunities in Wales for Welsh people, and that all the manufacturing, servicing and maintenance of the gargantuan new turbines that will be floated off the coast is not done elsewhere. Let me leave that thought with the Secretary of State. He and I have talked about these issues a lot, and I know that we are very much on the same page, but I still think there is work to be done within the UK Government and the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy to make that happen.

--- Later in debate ---

[Robin Millar]

I certainly agree that we can do better. To be clear, I speak in this debate as a proud Welshman—Cymro balch, if I am allowed to say that in the Chamber—born, raised and schooled near Bangor. I have the honour of representing Aberconwy, which is by any measure one of the most beautiful parts of Wales, and indeed the United Kingdom. It should be no surprise that my constituency attracts hundreds of thousands of visitors from throughout the UK and overseas. Llandudno, the queen of the Welsh resorts; the natural splendour of Eryri, Snowdonia national park; Conwy castle, one of several UNESCO world heritage sites that we enjoy in north Wales and are happy to host; and a thriving hospitality and culinary scene—these are just some of the attractions that make Aberconwy the visitor success that it is.

I share the pride felt by so many of my constituents in this thriving sector, but I also share the concern of many that we are so dependent on tourism, and the concern that, for so many young people, the only chance of pursuing a high-skilled, well-paid career lies in moving away from their community. This pattern has been detrimental for many and to the future of many, and not least also to the viability of our precious Welsh culture and language—a language that I, like so many in all parts of the Chamber, wish to see flourish.

I had to move away from north Wales to develop my interests and career, initially as an engineer. In many ways, it is a typical north Wales story, but it cannot be right that our young people have to think in those terms—that to see themselves working, living and settling in north Wales, they must first move away; but then I notice, when I look at Wales’s economic figures, that weekly income over the last 20 years has essentially just about kept up with inflation. There has been no net increase. Why is that? It is a frustration, because Aberconwy is home not just to many of the UK’s finest visitor attractions, but to talent and ingenuity.

Just last winter, an analysis of Companies House returns identified Llandudno, the queen of resorts, as the entrepreneurial capital of the UK. More new companies were filed there than anywhere else. That has to count for something, and it certainly reflects the conversations I have with many young and ambitious people in Aberconwy. Each and every week when I am home in my constituency, I visit businesses and community groups, and I am always impressed by the entrepreneurialism, and the commitment to growing, creating and strengthening things. Whether we are talking about business, people, groups or even our communities, there is huge ability and interest in improving what we have.

As we have heard, talent is distributed throughout the United Kingdom, but opportunity is not. Creating opportunities in communities in every corner of Wales, and indeed the whole UK, is at the heart of this Government’s levelling-up agenda. That is why I welcome the record amounts of funding and investment coming to Wales from the UK Government. However, there are three frustrations that I would like to set out, and they speak to why levelling up could not be more urgent for communities throughout north Wales. It is a tragic fact that, after 24 years of devolution and a consistently Labour Welsh Administration in Cardiff, despite all the promises, all the opportunities for devolution and our vast economic potential, Wales has the lowest economic output of anywhere in the UK apart from north-east England, a region with its own unique challenges.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I am listening to the hon. Member with great interest, because he is making some persuasive arguments, but does he agree that devolution for Wales has not equipped Wales with the tools to make a significant difference? We have seen Labour managing poverty in Wales, rather than having the means to make a difference. He talked about tourism. Does he agree that if we are to play to our strengths, we should have a tax on people staying in Wales—what is known as a tourism tax? That would surely be a way of improving our skills base, which would lead to better jobs, better qualifications and a better experience all round for communities in which there is tourism. Does he agree that we should play to those strengths, and that we need the means of doing that?

[Robin Millar]

The right hon. Lady’s intervention gives me an opportunity to make a really important point. I think that we have a fundamentally different view of the world. Effectively, she is referring to a deficit model, in which the deficit from poverty and need is something that must be filled. I come from a different perspective. I hold to what I would call an asset-based model. Yes, there are problems, gaps and shortages, but the way to deal with them is not simply to try to fill the deficit; it is to engage with and use the assets that are there.

I have spoken against the tourism tax. I feel very strongly that a tax placed on visitors who stay in hotels does nothing to address problems, or the behaviours of those who come to the area and wild camp, or do not even stay overnight, and who do not spend money in the local economy. I understand the sentiment behind the tax, but its motive is to make the money to fill or fix the deficit. We should instead ask: how do we work with communities and businesses to change the behaviour of visitors, address their experience, and address inappropriate behaviours in our area?

Our frustration comes from seeing that we have talent, but limited opportunities. That is compounded by our having one of the lowest income outputs of anywhere in the UK. On top of that comes frustration with some of the responses of the Welsh Labour Government. I say that in all sincerity. In a recent letter to leaders of local authorities in Wales, the Welsh Government Minister for the Economy wrote that

“the Welsh Government is unable to endorse the approach that the UK Government is taking on the Shared Prosperity Fund. This means, as we have consistently stated to the UK Government, that the Welsh Government will not deploy our own resources to implement UK Government programmes in Wales which we consider to be flawed.”

I, like many others, am frustrated by this approach. Surely it is counterproductive to second-guess how a UK Government funding stream for parts of the UK will be handled.

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Baynes]

Yes, I certainly do. One question the Labour party must ask itself is whether, by going into collaboration with Plaid Cymru, it is actually supporting independence for Wales. How does it guard against that? The agenda is dragging it, day by day, closer to an independence agenda, which it is prepared to risk for the sake of its own political stability.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

One thing we need to consider is how the status quo results in Wales’s current financial position. Carrying on doing the same thing when it has led to failure in the past is the obvious statement—that is something else to be considered. Does the hon. Member agree that, in citing how much Wales receives, we must bear in mind that London receives more public spending per person than any other country of the United Kingdom or region of Wales at £15,490 per head, compared with Wales at £14,222 per head? When we use the argument that Wales receives more than England, we should look at the fact that London and its prioritisation affects the rest of the UK. We in Wales are trying to find a more effective way.

[Simon Baynes]

I thank the right hon. Lady for her intervention, and I have a degree of sympathy in that I believe we should support areas outside London, but the fact of the matter is that London generates the income that it spends. London, regardless of whether she or I like it, is the economic powerhouse. We represent adjoining constituencies in a very beautiful part of Wales, but the truth remains that a large proportion of Treasury finance is generated by London. Overall, the point I wish to make is that public spending in Wales is 20% more per person than it is in England, which shows, to my mind, that the UK Government are providing very strong support for Wales.

I have huge respect for the hon. Member for Cynon Valley and have seen how seriously she takes the cost of living issue, and learned a lot from listening to her in the Welsh Affairs Committee. I suggest that two things may be worth thinking about from the Labour party’s point of view. First, under Labour council tax bills in Wales have soared, while the UK Government have ensured that council tax has fallen in England in real terms by 1.1% since 2010. Over the same period, bills in Wales under Labour soared by 54%, or 17% in real terms. That really hits people in Wales in their pocket.

Secondly—my right hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) made this point—the Welsh Government now have the capability to use income tax to raise more money, or indeed to reduce income tax, yet we never hear any word of that. I often wonder whether the Welsh Government are scared of using those powers. We see all the time that an easier way to handle things is to complain about the UK Government but take the money, rather than actually thinking about ways to ameliorate the situation through levers that have been put in the hands of the Welsh Government. I also wish to comment on infrastructure, because it seems crazy to me that the Labour-Plaid coalition has suspended all new road building projects, holding back vital infrastructure improvements. If we want to improve the economic performance of Wales, we must improve the infrastructure—everybody knows that—and I hope that the Labour Welsh Government will reconsider that position.

Finally—you will be relieved to hear that, Madam Deputy Speaker—the Labour-Plaid coalition must also think hard about adding 36 more politicians to the Senedd at a cost of over £100 million per Parliament. That is enough money to pay for 780 doctors, 800 nurses, or 740 teachers. Let us consider the Welsh health service performance—I think Opposition Members have also commented on this. For example, the number of people waiting more than two years in Wales is now 68,032—an increase of 887% in a year—and that is more than five times the English figure of 12,735, which is shrinking fast. All I would say is that the Labour-Plaid coalition should think about spending the money that they are going to spend on extra members of the Senedd on improving the health service, which would be to the benefit of everybody in Wales.

[Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC)]

It is a pleasure, as always, to follow the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Simon Baynes), and I join him and the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Beth Winter) in thanking the staff of the Welsh Affairs Committee. A number of Committee members are present this afternoon, and we benefit from their hard work and diligence in preparing what I would argue is an impressive range of inquiries. We punch above our weight—very much like Wales, perhaps.

I congratulate and thank the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) for securing this debate and for leading the Welsh Affairs Committee in the way that he does. His contribution, and those of my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) and the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Robin Millar), have already caused us to discuss the structural long-term problems that Wales and its economy are facing, and the demographic consequences of those structural problems. Mention has already been made about recent census results in which Ceredigion reported a 5.8% fall in its population. I do not intend to pursue that line of inquiry in my remarks this afternoon, but it is an important area for us to consider and debate in future, because it is intertwined with the debate about levelling up and building a more prosperous economy, and indeed society. In many rural areas, and particularly areas such as Ceredigion, we are seeing a demographic trap in which some of our biggest and most valuable exports are our young people and skills. Yes, that has been happening for many years, but sadly the trend has been accelerating in recent decades. We need to get a handle on that.

I want to focus my remarks on the impact of the recent cost of living crisis on both households and businesses. Set against that backdrop, the debate is timely. As right hon. and hon. Members will be well aware, our constituents, whether households, businesses or community groups, are struggling under the weight of increased fuel and energy costs in particular. In anticipating some of the Secretary of State’s arguments and comments in summing up, I acknowledge that there has been a package of measures and support from the UK Government. As the Library’s briefing informs us, it amounts to some £37 billion and includes: £400 to help all households with energy bills; £650 for households receiving means-tested benefits, with an additional £300 for pensioners and £150 for people receiving disability payments; and a further £150 council tax rebate for households in council tax bands A to D.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. On that £400 household grant, does he share my concern that the residences of farmers count as businesses and therefore do not qualify? That is significant for us in Wales and would make a difference to an awful lot of people in rural areas.

[Ben Lake]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for raising that important point. Indeed, a number of hon. Members are concerned about that. There is still a lack of clarity arising from the technical consultation on the energy bills support scheme about whether farms—I am told that most of them will have a commercial electricity contract that also includes their household premises—will be able to receive that £400. It is important for the Government to look at that now before introducing the scheme in the coming months. She is right that it would not be appropriate or fair if farmers—many hon. Members in their places represent a great number of them—lost out due to a technicality. I am certain that the Government intend to support those individuals and households; it is just that the technical eligibility criteria need to be put right.

One thing that the useful House of Commons Library briefing tells us is that, despite that rather impressive package of measures, once we take into account changes to income tax and national insurance contributions, some of that support is offset, at least in net cost to the Treasury. If we were to take tax increases into account, net Government support stands at about £14 billion in the fiscal year 2022-23.

We need to consider whether the package of support is sufficient, given that we know that domestic gas prices increased by 95% between May 2021 and May 2022 and that domestic electricity prices rose by 54%. In nominal monetary terms, the April price cap saw an increase in the maximum for average bills from £1,277 a year to £1,971 and, in May, the chief executive of Ofgem mentioned that he expected the price cap to rise by potentially 40% in the autumn to a maximum of £2,800. That would be a doubling in less than 18 months, and that is why it is important that we consider the sufficiency of the measures already announced. Just after April’s price cap came in, the Welsh Government estimated that 45% of households in Wales could fall into real fuel poverty—and, of course, that does not take into account further increases that may come in the autumn.

As MPs representing rural areas know, the energy price cap offers solace only to households on the mains gas grid. Many off-grid properties have not been offered the same level of price protection and have been exposed to significant price increases in terms of heating oil and liquefied petroleum gas. It is particularly true in Ceredigion, I am sad to say. According to the Mid Wales Energy Strategy, as many as 72% of properties in Ceredigion are off the mains gas grid. I am sad to say that we have the accolade of being the constituency most dependent on heating oil of any in the UK Parliament. On average, the price of heating oil has risen by 150% in the last year. In some circumstances, the increases have been significantly higher.

There is a debate we need to have, perhaps not for today, on whether we need to change approach in how we tackle the price hikes. Are we certain that they are just one-off temporary increases? Some suggest that we have underestimated and under-costed the risks, and that some increases are here to stay. Indeed, we could see further price increases. I note just today turbulence in Norway that might cause a further increase in the price of wholesale gas. There are a lot of uncertainties at a time when wholesale prices are already at an elevated level.

Before drawing to a close, I should mention that we need to do more to support small businesses and community groups facing energy and fuel price increases. I have been speaking to many hospitality businesses in Ceredigion. One told me that its energy bills have increased by 450% and to such an extent that it had to really consider whether it could continue to operate. The situation is not unique to that business. I know a great number of many other businesses that are struggling in a similar manner. We cannot allow otherwise valuable and successful businesses to fall foul of the price hikes. I sincerely believe that the situation warrants further Government intervention.

To add to that, because I do not want to portray this as solely an economic problem, there is also a community or social impact of the current crisis. We will all have heard from community groups, halls and swimming pools—you name it—that are struggling at the moment with higher than average energy bills. We are currently in the summer months, so usage is a lot lower than it will be in the winter. If they are struggling now, I dread to think where they will be in autumn. For example, in my own constituency, Calon Tysul, a community-run swimming pool in Llandysul in the Teifi valley, is already spending about £1,500 a week just to heat the swimming pool. That does not include the dry side of its facilities. That is already forcing it to make very difficult decisions about the provision of swimming lessons for our young people.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Kinnock]

Madam Deputy Speaker, I am sure that you would love to give me another 10 minutes to talk about the achievements of the Welsh NHS, but unfortunately I am not sure that I would get away with it. The fact is that there is a list of achievements. It has invested more in the recruitment of nurses, which is at record levels. The Welsh NHS vaccine roll-out programme was a tremendous success; I recognise that the roll-out has been a success across the United Kingdom, and I am absolutely delighted about that, but the Welsh NHS really stepped up and delivered. There are so many achievements that we do not have time to discuss today, so perhaps the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire would like to secure another debate on the topic.

I feel for the people of England and Scotland, who have not had the support that we have had in Wales. The answer is clearly for them and their fellow British citizens across the UK to vote to replace this pitiful, debased and degraded UK Conservative Government with a Labour Government driven by purpose, patriotism and the national interest, rather than the self-interest and saving of their own skin that we are seeing from the current Government.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Does the hon. Gentleman join me in welcoming the decision taken by Labour in Wales over the weekend to increase the size of the Senedd? Surely the point is that we need better scrutiny of the services carried out in Wales. Does he also join me in welcoming the major initiative, also agreed to in the vote over the weekend, to change the voting system, moving away from first past the post and towards a list system? It shows that in Wales we can bring about a different sort of politics by working together.

[Stephen Kinnock]

The reality is that the Senedd simply did not have enough Members to hold the Government to account. There were not enough Back Benchers on Committees. Scrutiny is a vital part of our democracy—the right hon. Lady is right about that point.

Wales faces a UK Government who have broken their promises to the people of Wales. It has become clear that when providing a replacement for EU farm funding, the UK Government are deducting EU receipts due to Wales for work that was part of the 2014 to 2020 rural development programme, meaning that Wales’s rural communities are £243 million worse off than they should be. That is a devastating blow to those communities.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart)]

I join the chorus of compliments directed at my right hon. Friend, and neighbour, the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) for his part in this debate and, indeed, in chairing the Welsh Affairs Committee, which he does with absolute skill and aplomb. I was struck by a few points he made. He referred to the inflationary pressures that are on the UK at the moment being a global phenomenon, rather than a UK-based or even a Wales-based one. He mentioned the Opposition’s claims about underspend or underfunding, which seemed to vary according to which speaker was on their feet, with one or two Labour Members referring to £1 billion and others from the SNP referring to £700,000. It seems that they cannot even agree among themselves exactly what their line of attack is.

I was particularly struck by my right hon. Friend’s comments about the Crown Estate and devolution. Having had many meetings with the Crown Estate, a number of stakeholders and potential investors who were floating offshore wind, I am as excited as he is by the prospect of some 10,000 of the 29,000 jobs that might be associated with this scheme coming to Wales. Of all the potential investors, and many of the local supply chain businesses that we will rely on, not a single one has ever mentioned to me that their opportunities would be enhanced by devolving the Crown Estate. [Interruption.] If the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) does not like what I say, perhaps she might trust some of the people who have real expertise and who are really optimistic about bringing well-paid, skilled jobs to Wales. It is they whom we should be listening to, rather than necessarily a separatist movement.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

rose—

[Simon Hart]

I will keep pressing on, because we do not have a lot of time. My old friend and neighbour, the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), and I have had this exchange about separatism versus Unionism many times, but until such time that he can explain to me why it is apparently essential for the future of Wales that we leave the UK, while simultaneously apparently just as essential that we rejoin the EU, I will never be able to take his economic lectures as seriously as I know he would like.

My hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Robin Millar) made a telling contribution about tourism and hospitality, particularly along the north Wales coast, and demonstrated his strong advocacy as far as a low-tax economy is concerned.

If the ambition of the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Beth Winter) is to wind me up, she does it remarkably well, whether in the Welsh Affairs Committee or here. In her praise for the performance of the Welsh Government, it was telling that there was no reference to health outcomes or educational outcomes in Wales. It was also telling, as I challenged her last time about this, that she never mentioned the fact that I would love to join her in a letter to the First Minister suggesting that the £96 million-worth of extra Members of the Senedd that she advocates for so passionately instead be spent on job creation in the Cynon Valley. My offer is still open to her. That would be a better use of the funds we are talking about.

My hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd South (Simon Baynes) made an interesting contribution about the geographical spread of the shared prosperity fund, referencing joint bids between local authorities and the new opportunity for MPs across the House to endorse or contribute to the bids. I thought his point about the Union relevance of infrastructure—we could quote any number of examples, whether road or rail—was telling and important.

Turning to the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Ben Lake), all I can say is that he made, as he often does, a measured and sensible contribution around the rural fuel relief scheme, and my pledge from the Dispatch Box is to talk to him and his colleagues further about how we can tackle that problem.

The hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) put in a strong case for sycophantic speech of the year. That was a great effort. He went all-in on tax rises, but did not mention that the two most recent contributions of Labour in Wales on tax were introducing a tourism tax, which is widely considered to cripple tourism in Wales—that was not mentioned; I cannot think why—and the latest ruse about a deposit return tax, which would damage, for example, a number of vineyards in Wales. His long list of, basically, free stuff to anybody would not have been that long if the Welsh Government were responsible for raising that money, either by private taxes or by business taxes. He never mentioned that. I wonder whether this obsession with free stuff would be so easy if there was some accountability about raising the cash in the first place.

Nearly finally, there was more in the speech of the hon. Member for City of Chester (Christian Matheson) about which we agree than disagree—I am not sure how pleased he will be about that. We have a closely shared ambition on Union connectivity, and I absolutely agree with the significance he attaches to that. We might have a different means of reaching that particular objective, but I agree with him, and I would like to have further conversations with him and colleagues in the north Wales area to see where we can take that.

Finally, with the speech of the hon. Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson) from the SNP, I almost reached a new record, as it contained nothing upon which we agreed. That is not to be in any way critical. He illustrated to me how separatism and nationalism—whichever description he would care to attach to his particular political party—would be one of the most significant threats to Wales that I can think of, were it ever to be deployed in our country.

I want to finish, with huge thanks to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, my right hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire and other contributors to the debate. We are in danger of painting a gloomier picture than we need to—of course, we have to be realistic—if we listen to the expectations for Wales of the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jo Stevens). As Airbus recently demonstrated, Wales is a fantastic place to invest vast sums of money and create hundreds of new highly skilled jobs—there are many such examples, large and small, across the whole country. People are looking to us in Government, and the hon. Lady in Opposition, to create the circumstances to make that possible. We can do that. It is not without its challenges—nobody, from the Chancellor down, is suggesting for one minute that it will be an easy ride—but I urge the hon. Lady to join us in our endeavour to make sure that levelling up is the success that it deserves to be.

Devolution in its truest sense is about involving the widest number of people with expertise across the whole geographical area of Wales. The great thing about the levelling-up fund is that, for the first time ever, it does exactly that. It reaches into local authorities and local communities across the length and breadth of Wales. That has never been done before, and it is revealing that the Welsh Government were advocates of devolution, as we heard from the hon. Member for Aberavon, until such time as we said, “Yes, that’s a good idea. Let’s involve some more people. Let’s involve people who have hands-on daily experience of the pressures facing their communities where deprivation is at its most acute”—that is what we are attempting to do.

It seems odd that Labour in Wales is so paranoid and disrespectful of local authorities, some of which wear the same political colours. For some inexplicable reason, Labour Members seem nervous of allowing devolution to extend beyond the Cardiff postcode. We do not believe that; we trust local authorities, stakeholders and universities—all those people who make our economy and our society tick. That is why levelling up will be a success. If it was simply a means of transferring a postcode from SW1 to CF16 or whatever it might be, it would be a failure. The Welsh Government need to stop being so paranoid and join the endeavour to level up Wales in the way that they have failed so spectacularly to do for 23 years.

Oral Answers to Questions

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Wednesday 25th May 2022 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hart]

The hon. Lady clearly did not listen, or did not want to listen, to my previous answer. When we know the Chancellor is about to make a statement in the Chamber on all these issues, would it not be more sensible to allow the Treasury to spell out exactly what its plans are and how they will benefit businesses and individual families in Wales before making such highly politicised comments?

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I add my party’s commiserations to everybody affected by the bus accident in Llanfair Caereinion.

The Oakeley Arms in my constituency is a superb inn located in a grade II listed building at the heart of Snowdonia national park. It is off grid, it is limited by regulations on energy efficiency measures and its owners now face a quadrupling in energy bills. Does the Secretary of State agree that small businesses need more support? Will he speak to the Chancellor about extending the price cap to our hard-pressed small and medium-sized businesses?

[Simon Hart]

I will definitely speak to the Chancellor, as I often do about these things. Perhaps I could suggest a deal to the right hon. Lady: I will speak to the Chancellor to get further information if she will speak to her leader in Cardiff to get him to call off the dogs by cancelling the tourism tax that the Welsh Government want to impose on businesses, causing further hardship for people in her constituency.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

If the Secretary of State kept to the powers he has in Westminster, perhaps he would have better support. There are now no Tory councillors in any of the Plaid-held councils along the west coast of Wales.

Rumours of an economic package are rife, not because the Government care about struggling households and businesses but because, of course, they want to distract from their own lawbreaking. Household energy bills will likely increase to £2,800 in the autumn, yet the Chancellor is sitting on his hands until it proves politically convenient. Is the Secretary of State not ashamed of his Government’s behaviour?

[Simon Hart]

I despair sometimes, with the greatest respect. I urge the right hon. Lady to wait, for what should not be a great deal more time, to hear precisely what we have in store on the cost of living challenges. I remind her that, throughout the pandemic and the cost of living challenges, the Treasury has been unbelievably flexible, unbelievably adaptable and, in some respects, unbelievably generous. To try to pre-empt the Chancellor by making cheap political points undermines the value of what those contributions may be, and it does a disservice to the businesses and individuals that the right hon. Lady purports to support.

Wales

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Monday 22nd November 2021 Ministerial Corrections

The following is an extract from Wales Office questions on 17 November 2021.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Wales’s dangerous coal tips loom over our industrial communities like spectres from our industrial past and remind us of how our natural resources were exploited, mostly for the benefit of others. Climate change is set to compound the risk posed by coal tips, and we expect rainfall to increase by around 6% over the next 30 years. This month, the COP26 President said it was vital

“that we help at risk communities adapt to the impact of”

climate change. How is the Minister’s refusal to settle the £600 million bill consistent with that statement?

[David T. C. Davies]

Included in the £2.5 billion of extra funding that will be given to the Welsh Government this year is an allocation of money precisely to deal with the sort of problems to which the right hon. Lady refers. She has often said that the UK Government should not get involved in devolved issues; this is a devolved issue, but we have provided the money for the Welsh Government to deal with it. If there are dangerous coal tips, the Welsh Government have the money and must get on and solve the problem.

[Official Report, 17 November 2021, Vol. 703, c. 563.]

Letter of correction from the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies):

An error has been identified in my response to the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts).

The correct response should have been:

Oral Answers to Questions

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Wednesday 17th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

We cannot do points of order; they come afterwards.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Wales’s dangerous coal tips loom over our industrial communities like spectres from our industrial past and remind us of how our natural resources were exploited, mostly for the benefit of others. Climate change is set to compound the risk posed by coal tips, and we expect rainfall to increase by around 6% over the next 30 years. This month, the COP26 President said it was vital

“that we help at risk communities adapt to the impact of”

climate change. How is the Minister’s refusal to settle the £600 million bill consistent with that statement?

[David T. C. Davies]

Included in the £2.5 billion of extra funding that will be given to the Welsh Government this year is an allocation of money precisely to deal with the sort of problems to which the right hon. Lady refers. She has often said that the UK Government should not get involved in devolved issues; this is a devolved issue, but we have provided the money for the Welsh Government to deal with it. If there are dangerous coal tips, the Welsh Government have the money and must get on and solve the problem.[Official Report, 22 November 2021, Vol. 704, c. 2MC.]

[Liz Saville Roberts]

As the hon. Gentleman well knows, it is an inherited issue. Our industrial communities still bear the scars of the scorched-earth policy inflicted by Prime Minister Thatcher. The green transition must be different.

Last week, the Crown Estate revealed that it is planning to build new wind farms off the coast of Wales. The profits will disappear into Treasury coffers rather than going to the people and businesses of Wales. Will the Minister support my private Member’s Bill, which would ensure that all Crown Estate profits made in Wales are invested in Wales?

[David T. C. Davies]

In one breath, the right hon. Lady criticises Margaret Thatcher for closing down coalmines; in the next breath, she says that we must not have coalmines because they are bad for climate change. She will forgive me if I feel there is a certain inconsistency there, but I will look with interest at whatever Bill she has introduced.