Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 10th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

Like my hon. Friend, I am a non-trade union member. I was expelled from the Association of Scientific, Technical and Managerial Staffs in the 1970s and described as a “pin-striped bovver boy”.

My hon. Friend raises a serious issue about the safety of staff working on their own for the NHS, which has a responsibility to look after its staff. The management service has rolled out an alarm protection service for NHS staff who work alone, and employers can take advantage of the service by providing staff who work alone with alarms. I understand that his PCT has taken advantage of this service.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

I think that the business statement implies that on Tuesday we will have a chance to debate the Lords amendment on a threshold before the referendum on AV becomes mandatory. As an electoral reformer myself, I want the referendum to go through and I will vote yes, but it would be difficult to accept that the result could be compulsory on an extremely low turnout. What is the Government’s attitude likely to be towards this on Tuesday?

[Sir George Young]

I think that I am right in saying that when we debated the matter in this House, Opposition Front Benchers were against a threshold, and that certainly remains the position of the Government. But there will be an opportunity on Tuesday, as I said, for the House to debate the Lords amendments, including the one on the threshold.

Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 3rd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

The Health and Social Care Bill contains a fairly large section on public health, because it transfers responsibility for that sector from primary care trusts to local authorities. There should be opportunities for discussion of important health issues in Committee, and my hon. Friend will certainly be able to discuss them on Report.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

The Leader of the House has expressed his enthusiasm for further parliamentary reform, and he will be attending this afternoon’s debate on the subject in Westminster Hall. Will he bear in mind the fact that the change in our sitting hours which was introduced in 2002 proved pretty disastrous and pretty un-family friendly for those who wanted to take their children on the school run in London? The question is not as simple as some make it out to be.

Parliamentary Reform

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 3rd February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

It is a pleasure to hold this debate under your chairmanship, Mr Benton, and I thank you for your guidance on how matters should proceed. No doubt that was appreciated by all hon. Members in keeping within the spirit of the debate. I am also grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for providing the opportunity for an initial debate on parliamentary modernisation and reform. I look forward to hearing about the experiences of other new Members, and to learning from those who have been MPs for longer.

This debate is part of a call for more open and efficient politics. If we do not continue visibly to modernise the way in which we work, I worry that the public will—rightly—fail to be convinced that politics has changed for the better. It is more vital than ever for Parliament to ensure that its work is efficient, transparent and accountable. Following my first six months in this place, those are not the first three words that come to mind as I consider the way we conduct ourselves.

Our political process is still struggling to regain its legitimacy and credibility in the eyes of the public. Following the expenses scandal, 232 new MPs entered Parliament in 2010. It is now time to shake off the image—and in some cases the reality—of the “old boys club” and move Westminster into the 21st century. I pay tribute to the extensive work that has already been done. In particular, the work of the Wright Committee led to important changes in the management of the business of the House, not least with the establishment of the Backbench Business Committee, which has allowed this debate to take place.

There is still a long way to go. Following the expenses scandal, public suspicion about the behaviour of MPs has not gone away, and many people seriously ask what exactly it is that MPs do. How does Parliament work on a day-to-day basis? How can we better scrutinise legislation and serve our constituents with maximum efficacy and efficiency? In years gone by, MPs were accused of being too Westminster focused and of not working enough in their constituencies. Now some suggest that the pendulum has swung in the other direction, and that some MPs spend too much time in their constituencies, and not enough time properly scrutinising the legislation for which they are responsible. Now is a good time to take stock of that, and discuss what the balance should be between time spent on constituency casework and scrutiny of legislation.

Our constituents want us to have the time to know what we are voting on and to hold the Government to account, but they also want us to deal with constituency work and to know about their concerns. How much time a week should MPs spend in understanding what they are voting on in Parliament, and how much time should they spend in their constituency? We will all hold different views on that. It strikes me that it might be interesting to see an official job description for the role of MP. That is not something I have ever seen, but if it existed it would be interesting, and people would probably have different views about the different clauses in it.

We all have our own views about the way that the procedures in this place could be improved, and I look forward to hearing from others during the debate. I have published some of my own ideas in a report entitled, “The case for parliamentary reform”, which I circulated to colleagues last November. Today, I make the same suggestion as in the report: the procedures and processes of the House of Commons are in urgent need of reform. That is hardly a new or novel observation. However, in a time of austerity when the rest of the country is urged to be more efficient with scarce resources, perhaps we should look at our own practices and at how efficient we are being with taxpayers’ resources in using our time in Parliament.

Some of the reforms in my report build on previous proposals by the Wright Committee and the now disbanded Select Committee on the Modernisation of the House of Commons. A few of the new proposals draw on experiences from other legislatures, while others were—I admit—rejected by previous Parliaments at a different time. However, that is no reason why a new Parliament in new circumstances should not examine those proposals again.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

I have read the hon. Lady’s paper; it contains some interesting and good proposals. Past reforms covered the hours in which the House sits, which were changed in 2001-02. One of the proposals in her paper is to change sitting hours on a Tuesday, but that is distinctly un-family friendly for people who want to do the school run in London. At times, some of the proposals have the feel of being not so much family as London friendly.

[Caroline Lucas]

The issue that the hon. Gentleman pinpoints is important. The perspective of family friendliness depends on where someone happens to sit, be that in London, the north or the south-west. However, the issue is broader than that; it is about what kind of symbol and signal we want this place to convey. I hope we want to give a signal that it is right for people to be able to work within set hours on a given day. People, including our staff, should be able to do that.

[Kevin Brennan]

I will not intervene again after this remark. However, on some occasions, it was extremely difficult for hon. Members to see their staff before Wednesday afternoon, because there was no thinking, preparation or meeting time when a Committee meeting started before 9 am on a Tuesday. My researcher wanted to work a 2 pm to 10 pm shift, so that she could do her job properly when those hours were introduced. The House changed its mind and went back to the previous hours a year later.

[Caroline Lucas]

The hon. Gentleman’s intervention indicates that changing the sitting hours alone is not enough. We must change what we do within those hours. I am sure that it is not beyond the wit of this Parliament to arrange our sitting hours so that people can do enough preparation for their Committees, and so that officials have time to prepare the speaker for urgent questions, or whatever. Do we want this House to set an example by working relatively family-friendly hours or not? If we do, other things will fall into place.

Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 27th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

The House business committee was another commitment to which the previous Government refused to commit themselves. We are committed to it, and it will be introduced within three years of this Parliament. We want the current regime to run for about a year, when we will review it and then have serious discussions about how we move to stage 2 —the House business committee, which will merge my responsibilities with those of the Backbench Business Committee, so that one Committee will deal with the future business of the House.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

May we have a debate on the Government’s use of Orwellian language? We have had doublespeak and newspeak, and now we have Mayspeak in the Home Secretary’s renaming as the “Freedom Bill” a measure to keep people under surveillance, and renaming curfews “overnight residence requirements”. Is it true that she is to rename electronic prisoner tags “involuntary pagers”? Frankly, we need some sort of cross-party conversation, otherwise known as a debate, about it.

[Sir George Young]

The hon. Gentleman reiterates an exchange that took place yesterday when his colleagues raised those points, which the Home Secretary dealt with very adequately. She has rebalanced the competing demands of liberty and security in an intelligent way. There will be an opportunity to debate the Bill to which she referred when it is introduced. The provisions may not be in the Freedom Bill.

Oral Answers to Questions

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 20th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vaizey]

I absolutely agree with the hon. Lady’s sentiments. I know that she used to work for Creative Partnerships and was a trustee of the South London gallery. She will know full well that almost all our cultural organisations work extremely hard to ensure access for young people to their work. We will continue to work with them and the Department for Education to ensure that that is maintained.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

14. When he expects to reach a decision on whether to refer to the Competition Commission the News Corporation bid for BSkyB.

[The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Jeremy Hunt)]

I will take as much time as necessary to come to a considered decision on this very important issue.

[Kevin Brennan]

As a former Minister with responsibility for competition in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, I know that the Secretary of State will want seriously to consider the evidence and not to prejudge what should be done in this case—unlike his predecessor. However, does he agree that given his own very high-profile comments about Rupert Murdoch and BSkyB, it might be sensible in this case, in which justice needs to be seen to be done as well as to be done, for him to hand over the decision to someone who will be seen to be more impartial, if not actually more impartial?

[Mr Hunt]

This is not a decision about Rupert Murdoch or his business; it is a decision about whether a specific transaction will affect plurality. I am approaching that decision with total impartiality and following strict due process.

Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 20th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I welcome my hon. Friend’s remarks. I hope that he will speak on Second Reading of the Health and Social Care Bill to make the point, which he just touched on briefly, that GP commissioning is the way forward, is popular in his constituency, and is the right way to go as we reform the NHS.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

One way of stopping the complaints about announcements appearing in the press beforehand—this is a helpful suggestion—would be for the Leader of the House to announce the Government media grid at the same time as he announces the future business of the House on Thursdays. Just what is it on the Government media grid on Monday that means that the Home Secretary is refusing to grace us with her presence until next Wednesday?

[Sir George Young]

When the hon. Gentleman’s party was in government, I am not sure that it put in the public domain the media grid devised by Alastair Campbell. The Home Secretary will be at this Dispatch Box on Monday, ready to answer questions on whatever matters colleagues raise.

Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 13th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

That is an excellent idea. The Government have no plan to do so, but it might be a suitable subject for a Backbench debate. Many encouraging export orders have been made over the Christmas recess—some from China and many in the aerospace arena—and Sainsbury’s made a commitment on Monday to create another 20,000 jobs, but I agree that we must do all that we can to promote export-led growth. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills and the newly appointed Minister for Trade will attack that task with vigour.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Why has the statement about the responsibilities that are being transferred from BIS not yet been made? Will the Leader of the House arrange for that to be done immediately? The Secretary of State was de-bagged on the last day of term. It has now been nearly a month since that change was announced. Is some sort of wrestling match going on behind the scenes over his residual responsibilities?

[Sir George Young]

Some details need to be finalised. The hon. Gentleman will know that all responsibility for competition and policy issues that relate to the media, broadcasting, digital and telecoms sectors has been transferred to the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, and that includes full responsibility for Ofcom’s activities in those areas. The Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey) will be the Minister responsible for the digital economy. As I have said before, the details of those changes will be laid before the House in a written ministerial statement very shortly.

Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 16th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I applaud what the hon. Gentleman said about our fighting forces. He will get a letter from an MOD Minister before the House rises for the Christmas recess.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Now that the Prime Minister has said that he is taking personal charge of the school sports debacle, can we expect another statement from him on Monday, after he visits the Olympic site, or will an announcement be made in the usual way through the Sunday newspapers?

May I wish a merry Christmas to the Leader of the House and the Deputy Leader of the House, who is wrong about the Deputy Prime Minister? He is not St Nick, or even the messiah—he is just a very naughty boy.

[Sir George Young]

I have forgotten what the question was. On school partnerships, a further announcement will be made in due course about our proposals to replace the previous regime. I welcome what the hon. Gentleman said about wishing everybody a merry Christmas, and I hope that he included in that the Deputy Prime Minister.

Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 9th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. With the establishment of an all-age careers service by April 2012, we intend to restore a focus on specialist expertise and careers guidance for young people, based on independence and professionalism. I regret that the single focus on careers guidance has been lost in recent years, and we hope to put that right. If we have time for a debate on the matter, I hope that the Back-Bench business committee can allocate one.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House enlighten us about why he has decided to pull stumps half-an-hour early this evening, because he did not do so last night? Instead of criticising the Opposition, will he tell us why he has chosen to restrict debate by taking that half-an-hour off when so many Members want to speak?

[Sir George Young]

We followed the precedent of the previous Government, who, in a similar debate, drew stumps at 5 o’clock.

Business of the House (Thursday)

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Wednesday 8th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

If the hon. Gentleman had wanted, he could have tabled an amendment to the motion and we could have debated it. No such amendment was tabled by any Opposition Member and I therefore assume that they are entirely content to stop at 5.30 pm.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

rose—

[Sir George Young]

I want to make a bit of progress and then I will give way.

When I announced the business for tomorrow at business questions last Thursday, no Member on the Opposition Benches raised objections to the timing or the process of the motions. The process that we are using for the debate tomorrow is set out in section 26 of the Higher Education Act 2004, under which the regulations are to be made. The Opposition will be familiar with that process, given that it is their Act that allows us to make these changes by secondary legislation.

[Kevin Brennan]

I am grateful to the Leader of the House for giving way. Why in the motion did he choose the time of 5.30 pm? It is clear that the House’s intention is that the point of interruption on a Thursday should be 6 pm. Why is it 5.30 and not 6 pm?

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Brennan]

Is not my right hon. Friend’s point completely proved by the motion itself, in that the Government chose 5.30 pm as the time for the debate to end when the moment of interruption for a Thursday, voted for by this House, is 6 o’clock? Votes should take place after 6 o’clock on a Thursday, not before. That shows that the Government are not providing enough time.

[Hilary Benn]

I agree completely with my hon. Friend. That raises this question: what are the Government worried about in that extra half hour? The truth is that they do not want to listen to any more arguments. Given the problems that they have faced over their handling of tuition fees and their broken promises, that is not surprising. However, it is outrageous—I use that word deliberately—that the Government propose to allow the House of Commons only a few hours to discuss and consider the most fundamental change to student support and the funding of higher education that we have ever seen in this country. It is also breathtakingly disrespectful.

For proof of that, we need only to consider the fact that the debate on this business motion can continue until any hour. In other words, the Government are prepared to spend more time debating the allocation of time than they are prepared to give the House of Commons actually to debate, discuss and vote on their proposals.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart]

rose—

[Kevin Brennan]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The hon. Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne) seems to be turning into the hon. Member for Taunting. Is there anything that can be done to allow us to listen to the debate, rather than to his ranting?

[Mr Speaker]

I had been watching and listening closely, and I was conscious—I was about to comment on the fact—that a rather animated and protracted exchange seemed to be taking place between the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) and the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Whether some sort of private salon was taking place I do not know, but it must not do so. We must listen to the debate, so no taunting should take place at all. Let us listen to Mr Hilary Benn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

I think that I will consider that to be a point of humour, because it certainly was not a point of order.

[Kevin Brennan]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. When I was at university, the ones letting off the fire extinguishers were in the Bullingdon club.

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I do not know about fire alarms, but people are certainly letting off steam. They have now done so, and we must return to the important subject of the debate on this relatively narrow motion.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hilary Benn]

Indeed. Back Benchers have the opportunity tonight to decide whether the motion will be passed. That is why I hope that as many as possible will join us in the Lobby to vote it down.

[Kevin Brennan]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. As the Leader of the House has ignored the moment of interruption in his motion, by setting 5.30 as the time for the end of the debate tomorrow, is there any procedure by which a manuscript amendment could be tabled during the course of this debate, to extend tomorrow’s debate up until the normal moment of interruption, when any debate on a Thursday should end?

[Mr Speaker]

The short answer to the hon. Gentleman is that it is open to any Member to table a manuscript amendment. Whether the amendment is selected is a matter for the Chair. The Chair would consider a manuscript amendment if and when it were submitted. That is the situation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am grateful for that point of order, but rather than take up time in the debate I suggest that any Member who needs clarification on how to table a manuscript amendment should go to the Clerk to ask for guidance. Perhaps we can return to the debate.

[Kevin Brennan]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I also recommend “Erskine May”, which is lying on the Table and explains fully how to lay manuscript amendments—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Thank you—[Interruption.] Thank you very much, Mr Brennan. I am eternally grateful. I would like us to focus now on the debate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hilary Benn]

Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker.

[Kevin Brennan]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Will you clarify—this point is pertinent and not hypothetical—whether a manuscript amendment that is tabled tonight will be discussed tonight or tomorrow?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

If a manuscript amendment were tabled and it was selected for tonight’s debate, it would be debated tonight. As one has not been tabled, the hon. Gentleman is still asking a hypothetical question.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hilary Benn]

I agree with my hon. Friend. People look to the House of Commons to speak for them and they look to us as Members to represent their views. They want us to consider in appropriate depth and with adequate care the proposals that come before us. The number of people who are concerned about what we will be asked to consider tomorrow should find expression in the number of voices that are heard in this Chamber. We will be denied that opportunity because of the inadequacy of the time that is being offered.

[Kevin Brennan]

Is my right hon. Friend aware that journalists in the Committee corridor last night were reporting that the Lib Dems had as much time as they liked in their meeting and could speak for as long as they wanted on the matter without any timetabling of it in private? However, in public and in this Chamber, they are seeking to limit the debate to a mere five hours. Is that not a very telling point?

[Hilary Benn]

It is. If such an approach is good enough for Liberal Democrats in private, it ought to be good enough for the House of Commons in public. We are the voice of the nation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

I note what my hon. Friend is saying but, again, I wish to stick to discussing this business motion. I would not want Mr Speaker to pull me up for being tempted to go down a path that would not be in order.

[Kevin Brennan]

My hon. Friend reminds us that we must return to the motion, so what does he think of the Government’s practice of setting the time for tomorrow’s debate to finish at 5.30 pm and ignoring the moment of interruption, which this House democratically voted to put at 6 pm on a Thursday?

[Mr Jones]

I am not sure whether my hon. Friend has got good eyesight or was reading my mind, because that was exactly the point that I was going to make next. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) says that he is “Mystic Kev”, and clearly he is. An important point is at issue, because when the Leader of the House made his opening remarks he was asked why the debate was going to finish at 5.30 pm and not 6 pm tomorrow and we are still waiting for an answer. That was the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) tried to tease out with his manuscript amendment. Clearly, Mr Speaker, you have ruled that that is not in order, but we have still not heard an explanation of why 5.30 pm was chosen.

We have seen a strange thing this week, because this motion allows us five hours for the debate tomorrow, yet a matter of a day ago a motion proposed that we have three hours for that debate. No explanation has been given of why two hours have suddenly been conjured up—I will allow people to intervene on this. If we can suddenly, in a day, conjure up two hours, why can we not conjure up more time, as is clearly needed for this vital debate?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. I told the Whips tonight that I was giving up the opportunity to dine with people from north-east industry, so I have given up that very nice dinner and an opportunity to discuss with those individuals, who are very important to the north-east, higher education and other issues.

[Kevin Brennan]

The Government’s response to the debate is a key factor, is it not? If they had simply allowed the debate to extend to the normal moment of interruption on a Thursday, there would have been half an hour for them to respond, but as things stand, we will probably have only something like five minutes each at the end.

[Mr Jones]

I accept what my hon. Friend is saying, but I do not think that an extra half hour would give the House enough time to debate this issue. The words of the Leader of the House in his opening statement are important. As a reason why the statutory instrument needs to be rushed through this week, in a matter of five hours, he said—I wrote this down—that otherwise we would slow the process down, and that the fiscal position we are in is important. That exposes the truth of why this measure is being driven through. It is nothing at all to do with higher education or ensuring that Members can have a debate tomorrow. Rather than the Government thinking about the future of the country and its educational needs, they are saying that future generations will have to start paying now, to try to help them in the financial position in which they now find themselves.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

I thank my hon. Friend for that very short intervention. No, I have not. As everyone knows, I am not the most technical person.

[Kevin Brennan]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is a matter of some great contention, and we know—indeed, you will be aware, Mr Speaker—that in the previous Parliament a disturbance during proceedings on the Hunting Bill debate caused the House to be suspended. In the unlikely and absolutely dreadful event of that being repeated tomorrow, would the five hours be protected, or would any suspension of the House eat into that time?

[Mr Speaker]

The short answer to the hon. Gentleman is that he is raising a hypothetical question, and my attitude is best encapsulated in the wise words of the late Lord Whitelaw, who famously said that on the whole he preferred to cross bridges only when he came to them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

It is not only the mood of the House: it is also the mood of the country. As with many things that this Government are doing, they are rushing things through. If we had pushed through legislation and ignored the House to this extent, we would have been rightly criticised. Sometimes we did not allow the House enough time for true debate and we were criticised in the press. The point has already been made that curtailing debate also leads to bad legislation, because the implications are not scrutinised either on the Floor of the House or in Committee.

[Kevin Brennan]

My hon. Friend knows that this House has taken a few knocks to its reputation in the last couple of years. Will not the public be staggered when they find out that not only will the debate tomorrow be limited to five hours, but that the Government are not even proposing that the House uses up the time that it normally has available on a Thursday and finishes at half-past 5 instead of 6?

[Mr Jones]

My hon. Friend has made that point eloquently for the third time. I know that repetition is important, but I do not want to repeat points that have already been made well. It is true that we still have not had an explanation for the finishing time from the Leader of the House.

In conclusion—[Hon. Members: “More!”] I could start from the beginning if people want me to do so—[Interruption.] The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, has been chuntering from a sedentary position all night. I do not know whether he actually wants to make a contribution to the debate tonight or tomorrow, but as he has given up his principles for his red box and car, perhaps he should explain why.

In conclusion, five hours is completely inadequate to discuss the important implications of the motion tomorrow. It will affect not only thousands of students who are now in university, but thousands in the future. It will change the relationship between the state and higher education. It is not acceptable to rush that motion through in five hours without any justification for why three hours was okay two nights ago and five hours is adequate now. I urge hon. Members, especially those Liberal Democrats who still have their backbones in place, to vote with us and object to this programme motion tonight.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Farrelly]

I agree with my hon. Friend. The views of the Secretary of the Secretary of State for Education can perhaps be described as ultra logical. The Minister for Universities and Science is himself a logical man, but clearly when one admits that the fear of debt, however illogical, is a factor, we must have the time to inquire further into such policies.

[Kevin Brennan]

Is the point that my hon. Friend is making about the vagueness of some of the detail of the proposal not absolutely vital to the issue of having only five hours for the debate tomorrow? A debate in this House should not simply consist of the Government putting forward their proposals and ramming the measure through on a majority; it should consist of sufficient time for opposition and other Members to scrutinise and ask questions of the Government. That simply will not be able to happen tomorrow.

[Paul Farrelly]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Evidence shows—I hope to come on to some of the evidence—that in constructing any higher education package, it is important that the whole is taken together. The reality of politics means that if the fee levels are set in a five-hour debate tomorrow, those people who are concerned about student support and other elements of the package that may or may not count as deterrents will lose their leverage in future negotiations. My hon. Friend is absolutely correct.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Farrelly]

You will be glad to hear, Mr Speaker, that I plan to conclude very shortly, to give more Members—including, I hope, Government Members—an opportunity to contribute to the debate.

[Kevin Brennan]

My hon. Friend mentioned that the Youth Parliament came here to debate the very same issue. Would it not be ironic if we spent less time in the House debating the subject than the Youth Parliament, because of the inadequacy of the motion?

[Paul Farrelly]

It would be not only ironic, but tragic and a dereliction of the House’s duty—and a bad example to the UK Youth Parliament.

As my hon. Friend encourages me to talk more about the UK Youth Parliament, I should say that we need time to consider the views of Sam Hatzigeorgiou, a 16-year-old, who says:

“I am seriously considering giving up any hope of university education. Please think about that before you vote.”

Why can we not have time to consider what Chloe Shaw, who is just 15 years old, says? She says:

“I will be 18 when the policy comes into action. I am so worried about the rise in tuition fees. I am only going to be applying for the cheapest universities. Shouldn’t I be making the most of my abilities, rather than going for the cheaper options?”

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

I cannot adjudicate on that matter now, nor give any advance indication to the hon. Lady on how the debate will run. I say only that I am sure that Members will want to be courteous to each other. We are all concerned that right hon. and hon. Members from the Back Benches should have a chance to air their views. That is right and proper, but I shall be here and I attach great importance to these debates in the interests of all Members.

[Kevin Brennan]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. What was novel about the motion that we have just passed was not that it timetabled business—of course, that does happen—but that it timetabled business to come to an end half an hour before the moment of interruption. I cannot remember another occasion on which that has happened, but hon. Members might tell me that I am wrong. [Interruption.] I am sure that if the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Mr Randall) wants to say something further to my point of order, he will get to his feet in a minute. Will you advise me, Mr Speaker, on the best way to take this matter forward? Is it to write to the Procedure Committee? [Interruption.] I am not wasting time; it is the Government who are wasting time, because they said that they wanted to have that half an hour for voting. Voting should take place after the moment of interruption, and it always has. They have taken half an hour off tomorrow’s debate, and that is a serious matter.

[Mr Speaker]

What I say to the hon. Gentleman is twofold. First, he should not seek to continue the debate. Secondly, he rather anticipated my thoughts. If he feels strongly about this matter, a comprehensive memorandum from him to the Procedure Committee would be a very interesting memorandum to study. It would probably take him some little while to attend to it and I feel sure that that is just what he will want to do.