Backbench Business Committee

James Gray Excerpts

Thursday 26th April 2012 Westminster Hall

[Natascha Engel]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that plug. Of course, it was he who came to the Backbench Business Committee with the suggestion for a debate on a referendum on the EU.

One of the most shocking events I encountered while chairing the Backbench Business Committee—I do not know whether other hon. Members felt the same—was the first time I ever heard a Conservative Member call a Labour Member his honourable friend.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

What a mistake!

[Natascha Engel]

I know; it was a shock to all of us. When hon. Members come to the Backbench Business Committee, they are, collectively, Back Benchers holding the Government to account. The event I mentioned was a mark of how dramatically things had changed.

On the debate on the EU referendum, although the Committee has not always selected subjects for debate that the Government have been entirely happy with, the Government have made the working of the Committee possible. Certainly, although not always entirely happy with what we have done, the business managers and the Leader and the Deputy Leader of the House have always co-operated.

One of my criticisms of the way that relationship has worked is that the allocation of time to the Committee has been entirely ad hoc and pretty random, which means that we have not been able to schedule ahead. That has caused us a real problem and some difficulties; it is quite unnecessary.

--- Later in debate ---

[Natascha Engel]

Again, that is a helpful intervention; I thank the right hon. Gentleman.

I was talking about provisional approach that the Backbench Business Committee decided to take in its work. One of the most important decisions we took early on was to meet in public. That was not in the Standing Orders, but we were very aware that seven members and a Chair meeting in private almost one day per parliamentary week to decide which debates should be held would not be right. It was important for us to meet in public, to receive representations from our fellow Back Benchers and to be guided by what they brought to us, rather than by what we ourselves thought might be interesting debates. One of the Committee’s successes was to open it up to Back Benchers. That means we never have any idea what—if anything—will walk through the door, but it has added to the frisson of chairing and being a member of the Committee.

[Mr Gray]

I add to the general paean of praise for what the hon. Lady has done. One of the predictable things walking through the door every year is the debates that some argue should be held in Government time: the defence debates. We used to have three such debates a year on predictable days, but now they are arranged by the Backbench Business Committee. Is that right, or would she rather they went back to the Government for them to arrange?

[Natascha Engel]

That is an important issue that I hope the Procedure Committee will look at in some detail. Part of the allocation of 35 days for the Backbench Business Committee comprises what were previously set-piece debates. Defence actually had even longer—five days—along with a number of other debates, such as on fisheries or EU Council matters. There are many such debates, but we decided that they should compete on merit with all the others brought to us each week, which has disappointed those who were used to having the five defence days or the Wales day debates, for example. We, as Back Benchers, collectively need to resolve the matter, through the Procedure Committee.

I wish to draw to a close now to allow the following Back-Bench debate to take place, but I want to say a big thank you to the original members of the Committee—there were two Labour members who were replaced after they were promoted, one to the Whips Office—and to the Clerks who have supported our work, without whom we could not have done it. On a personal note, I express my gratitude for being given the opportunity to chair the Committee, which is an innovation; it is very rare that something brand-new comes along in Parliament. To have been involved right at the beginning has been a tremendous privilege.

Oral Answers to Questions

James Gray Excerpts

Tuesday 20th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman and his party ought to be a little careful on this subject. We are not going to take any lessons from them, because they did absolutely nothing about this for 13 years. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said last week, when we bring forward our proposals early in the new year, we will have done more on this in 18 months than the Labour Government did in 13 years.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

No one would disagree that there should be no place in this building for improper access or influence; that is obviously the case. Does the Minister agree, however, that there is a problem of definition? Perfectly legitimate charities and other organisations are lobbyists, even though they are not paid to lobby and do so on their own behalf. Will he therefore be careful about defining precisely what a lobbyist is, and take care not to throw the baby out with the bathwater?

[Mr Harper]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. Our constituents lobby us every day of the week about legitimate issues, for example. We must be careful to take these matters forward sensibly, which is why we are going to bring forward our proposals for consultation to ensure that we get this right and that we do not inadvertently stop our constituents and others raising important issues with us.

Oral Answers to Questions

James Gray Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Letwin]

The hon. Gentleman, who I have discovered has a very honourable record of visiting social enterprises in his constituency, makes a good point. We do believe that there is great merit in including in public sector contracting provisions that reflect social value and social outcomes. We are working on that and we intend to proceed with it.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

The Government have launched the Contracts Finder website, which enables third sector companies to find Government contracts. How does the Minister intend to assess how successful that has been and will he publish figures to demonstrate whether or not it has worked?

House of Lords Reform

James Gray Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the matter of House of Lords reform.

On 17 May, the Government published a draft Bill and White Paper proposing a reformed House of Lords. Since then, there has been considerable debate on the content of the proposals—I, of course, welcome that debate. These are significant constitutional changes and so demand proper and full scrutiny. As the debate unfolds, however, it important for us to step back for a moment and remind ourselves why we are doing this. First, very few people seriously believe that the status quo—an unelected second Chamber—makes sense in a modern democracy. [Interruption.] Most people agree with that, anyway.

During last week’s debate in the other place, someone said that elections are not

“the only form of democracy”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 21 June 2011; Vol. 728, c. 1165.]

The suggestion that democracy can somehow exist without elections reminded me that there is a fundamental principle at stake here—a basic choice. Do we believe that people should choose their representatives in Parliament, or do we not? Should citizens choose the people who make the laws of the land, or should they not? Every hon. Member must now decide which side of the argument they support.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

I apologise for intervening so early in the Deputy Prime Minister’s speech, but it is important to pick up his statement that everyone presumes that the status quo is not an option. What evidence does he have? The status quo is precisely the option for which I will vote.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

If I remember correctly, my hon. Friend voted for 100% election to the House of Lords when this subject was last up for discussion, which suggests that he might be more willing to entertain change than his question implies. Even the advocates of minimal change—even those in the other place, as was witnessed in last week’s debate—accept that some change is now unavoidable.

We have all promised change—every major party committed to Lords reform in their manifestos last year—so there is a legitimate expectation that we will now deliver it. Liberals and Liberal Democrats have long pursued Lords reform as part of a wider renewal of our political arrangements; the Labour party has advocated it as a blow to patronage and privilege; and the Conservative party has, especially in recent years, pushed for putting more direct power in the hands of voters.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The two issues are wholly separate. More than that, if my hon. Friend has other ideas about how we can arrive at our shared objective of a wholly or mainly elected House of Lords, that is precisely why we are now creating a Joint Committee. That is precisely why we have published not a final Bill but a draft Bill with a White Paper and why that followed a process of cross-party discussion in a Committee that I chaired, and which in turn built on many recommendations of a cross-party nature over the years and the decades. It was not just an invention of this Government. The Wakeham commission, the Straw committee and others came up with many of the recommendations that we are now suggesting. If he thinks they are too complicated, I look forward to his suggestions about how they can be made simpler.

[Mr Gray]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

If I may make a little progress, because I know many others wish to speak.

Our proposals are a comprehensive blueprint for change—there are 68 clauses and nine schedules. There is a lot to discuss. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) will respond to points raised in the debate in his closing speech.

The next stage, as I have just mentioned, is pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft Bill and White Paper on a cross-party basis by a Joint Committee of both Houses. I am sure that the Committee will take note of today’s debate in its deliberations, and we look forward to hearing its conclusions in due course. The Government’s plan is then to introduce a Bill next year in order to hold the first elections to the reformed House in 2015. There is clearly a lot of detail to be hammered out between now and then, and I hope that both sides of this House and of the other place will work together constructively as we move forward.

The truth is that no one seriously supports the status quo. [Interruption.] The vast majority of people do not support the status quo. I am delighted, by the way, by the enthusiasm for change from Opposition Members, which is excellent progress compared with the previous debate. Everyone has committed to change and we must now be pragmatic on the detail, never losing sight of the basic principle at stake: in a modern democracy, people must choose their representatives. Let us complete the long journey of Lords reform once and for all.

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[Sadiq Khan]

What we have before us is a draft Bill, but we have also a very good Joint Committee, and I look forward to it doing the work that is required, within a sensible time scale, to come back with a Bill that we can all accept with cross-party consensus.

[Mr Gray]

May I invite the shadow Minister to rise from the short grass and the detail of exactly what is going to happen and, for a second, before he moves on to the detail of his speech, to address a fundamental question? Which aspect of the work of the House of Lords, as currently constituted, does he dislike or think unsatisfactory? If he can point to some part of the work of the House of Lords that is wrong, will he explain how it would be improved by electing 100% of its Members?

[Sadiq Khan]

The hon. Gentleman heard the speech from the Deputy Prime Minister, who gave a number of examples whereby the other Chamber—[Interruption.] I will give the hon. Gentleman an example. Is it right that we have 828 Members in the other place, all of whom, except for the 92 who by good fortune of their DNA have to go through elections, are not elected? That is not acceptable in a modern democracy.

There are those who have, I accept, legitimate concerns that a directly elected upper Chamber might seek to assert its newly found democratic mandate by facing down the Commons, and it is critical that the Joint Committee addresses that issue. After all, the primacy of this House must remain. It currently rests on two principles, the first of which is legislative. The Parliament Acts removed the powers of the Lords over money Bills and empowered the Commons to override the Lords on non-money Bills. The second principle underpinning the primacy of the Commons is drawn from the elected nature of its Members, so if we move to a directly elected upper Chamber it is not unreasonable for some to ask whether this House faces a threat to its primacy.

Oral Answers to Questions

James Gray Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Maude]

It is one thing to have a target but another to reach it. The £21 billion of public sector fraud that the National Fraud Authority identified arose after his party’s Government had set their ambitious targets. We are getting on and doing things—identifying fraud and error and stopping hard-earned taxpayers’ money going out of the door, to ensure that instead it goes to the vulnerable people and important public services where it is needed.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

One and a half billion pounds sounds not like a modest saving, in the words of the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis), but like a worthwhile saving, given that every penny comes out of people’s pockets. How soon will the Minister be able to take forward savings towards achieving the £21 billion total? We need to stamp this out of the public sector: what can we do about it?

[Mr Maude]

I should make it clear that this is only the beginning. The issue is not only benefit or tax fraud but procurement fraud. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport is undertaking a pilot on supplier fraud in his Department, and it is already yielding significant returns. If the previous Government had been as concerned with eradicating fraud as we are, the public finances would not perhaps be in the mess they are in.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Prime Minister]

We listen very carefully to what people have to say, and of course we respect the fact that the SNP won a mandate in Scotland; we are responding extremely positively. The first point I make to the hon. Gentleman is that the Scotland Bill, currently before the House, is a massive extension of devolution. He shakes his head, but it is an extra £12 billion of spending power. We will be going ahead with that and we will look at all the proposals that First Minister Salmond has made. I take the Respect agenda very seriously, but it is a two-way street: I respect the views and wishes of the Scottish people, but they have to respect that we are still part, and I believe will always remain part, of a United Kingdom.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

Q6. Last Friday was the 90th anniversary of the Royal British Legion, next Monday is armed forces day, and on Tuesday 120 soldiers from 16th Air Assault Brigade will march through the Carriage Gates into Parliament to welcome them back from Afghanistan. Can we tell them, or will the Prime Minister repeat his assurance, that the armed forces covenant will now be written into law, for the first time in history?

[The Prime Minister]

Yes, I can give that assurance, and I am delighted that the Government and the Royal British Legion have agreed the approach we will take in the Armed Forces Bill, which is passing through the House. I am very glad that the House of Commons will be welcoming those soldiers from 16th Air Assault Brigade. Like the rest of our armed forces, they are the bravest of the brave and the best of the best. We cannot do too much for those people; that is why the armed forces covenant matters, and that is also why we kept our promise to double the operational allowance to soldiers serving in Afghanistan and other theatres.

Oral Answers to Questions

James Gray Excerpts

Wednesday 18th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

Yet again, here is another reform important for making sure that our pensions system is affordable and sustainable that Labour has completely given up on. What we are doing with pensions is linking them back to earnings—something that was promised repeatedly but never done—and making sure that our pensions system is sustainable for the long term. That is what we are delivering—something never done by Labour.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

Q5. The people of England have almost as much to lose from any move towards Scottish independence and the break-up of the Union as the people of Scotland. Will the Prime Minister therefore give us all a vote in a referendum on the subject?

[The Prime Minister]

I have made my views clear: if the Scottish Parliament wanted to hold a referendum, although I think that that would be a retrograde step, we would have to grant it. I would then join with everyone in this House and beyond who supports our United Kingdom to ensure that we keep it together. That is the process that we should go through, and it would involve a vote for people in Scotland, not for those in the rest of the United Kingdom.

Libya and the Middle East

James Gray Excerpts

Monday 28th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I am extremely grateful to the Prime Minister for his reply, but may I just say, for future reference, that references to members of the royal family should be very rare, very sparing and very respectful? [Interruption.] Order. We have to be very careful in our handling of these matters, and I hope that we will be.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

I thank and congratulate the brave young airmen and women of RAF Lyneham, which is still in my constituency and whose C-130J Hercules played such a crucial role in the evacuation. Does the Prime Minister agree that in future a much greater role could be played by contractors who at present have fairly scant plans for evacuations? If they expanded their own plans, we would lessen the risk to young service lives.

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend has made a good point. Obviously there needs to be a deeper conversation and greater planning between companies and the Government. Of course, companies have played an important role, but I feel that we need to ensure that we get this right for the future. Trying to bring people out of the desert across 20 or more platforms is extremely complicated, and I am sure that we can learn some lessons about how to do it better in future.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

James Gray Excerpts

Wednesday 16th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harper]

I have two points to make. First, on my hon. Friend’s last point, we are talking about a national referendum and the important thing is to get people to vote across the whole of the United Kingdom. Secondly, we do not have a tradition in this country of thresholds for referendums either. Ten referendums have been held and only in the devolution referendum in the 1970s was a threshold inserted—the rest of the referendums had no such provision. He is being too pessimistic, because people will engage with this question. However, it would be wrong to thwart a clear decision—a yes vote—on the basis of the sort of mathematical formula that I have just set out. It could have quite perverse results and give an incentive for people to stay at home.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

rose—

[Kevin Brennan]

rose—

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

James Gray Excerpts

Tuesday 15th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harper]

I will take your injunction as implicitly indicating that I should give way to fewer of them.

On the effect of AV, it is not, of course, the case under our system of optional preferential voting that it is necessarily 50% of the votes cast that counts; rather it is 50% of the vote remaining in the count. If lots of people choose not to accept a preference, AV does not imply that a Member of Parliament must get more than 50% of the vote. I simply disagree with my hon. Friend. He will know that I am as unenthusiastic about the alternative vote as he is, but I think the right thing to do, which is the Government’s policy, is to have the referendum so that he and I can go out and argue for a no vote, while other colleagues wanting a yes vote will make that case. We can then both seek to get as many people as possible to vote on our behalf. The Government’s view is that if there is a turnout threshold, it will provide an incentive for those who favour a no result to stay at home. I do not think that we should be encouraging that.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

Let me make a little more progress.

There are some technical and practical deficiencies, some of which were partially addressed in Lord Rooker’s Third Reading amendment, which the Government did not oppose pending full consideration in the Chamber. The definition of electorate was dealt with, as was how the turnout would be calculated. A problem with the original amendment was not remedied, as it leads to the creation of an internal contradiction in the Bill. It makes no consequential change to clause 8 to clarify that, in a case where the turnout is less than 40%, the referendum result is no longer binding. As it stands, clause 8 provides that the result is binding, irrespective of the turnout.

In addition, neither amendment makes any reference to what kind of process would follow a non-binding result. In the debate, Lord Rooker and his colleagues indicated that, in the event of a yes vote where the turnout was less than 40%, the question of whether the AV provisions should be implemented should return to Parliament. That point has been repeated by Members of all parties, but it is not made clear in the Bill or in the Lords amendment with which we disagree. There are also some issues with the definition of turnout.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

My hon. Friend is quite right. I was just coming on to the point that there is also the question of whether the definition of turnout in their Lordship’s amendment is correct. Lords amendment 8 specifies that

“the turnout figure is to be calculated on the basis that 100% is defined as the total number of individuals who are entitled to vote in the referendum, as defined in section 2; and… under Part 1 of this Act”.

That means that the turnout figure would not include those who had voted on the day, but whose votes were deemed, for whatever reason, to be void. Those void votes are not counted. As Lord Wallace noted in the other place, the Government’s view is that if eligible electors go to the polling station and vote, they have “turned out”, so they should be included within the turnout figure, even if their vote is subsequently deemed to be invalid. Although this aspect clarifies how to interpret Lords amendment 1, it does not necessarily do so in the right way.

[Mr Gray]

The Minister rests his argument on technicalities, which no doubt the Government could sort out by tabling amendments themselves. Returning to the main point of the debate, does he agree that Lord Rooker’s amendment would allow this House to decide how low the threshold should be if there were a very low turnout in the referendum? In other words, if, for the sake of argument there were a 5% turnout, would the Government believe that to be sufficient? No, I do not believe they would. If it were 35%, I believe they would. What level of turnout does the Minister believe to be a reasonable level to account for “the will of the people”? What would he view as a sensible turnout in the referendum—25% or lower?

[Mr Harper]

My hon. Friend has made a number of points. Let me say first that I did not rely on the technical arguments; I made the principled case at the outset, before adding that serious technical amendments were involved. Although, as my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) pointed out, the Government’s original position was simple and clear, the Lords amendments are complicated, and introduce a great deal of uncertainty.

In referring to what the House might do if the amendment were passed, my hon. Friend drew attention to the fact that some Members, understandably, wished to use an amendment passed in the other place by a majority of one as, effectively, a threshold amendment. If the threshold were below a certain point, they would wish to block the decision of the people. As I said earlier, we have taken the view that we should give the decision to the public, that we should campaign in favour of whatever is our side of the argument, and that we should all provide an incentive for the maximum possible turnout rather than some of us providing an incentive for those favouring a particular side of the argument to stay at home.

Prisoners (Voting Rights)

James Gray Excerpts

Tuesday 11th January 2011 Westminster Hall

[Tom Brake]

The fact is that we abide by the rules of the European Court of Human Rights, and it has ruled that the Government should take action. I believe, as does the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston, that it is appropriate for the Government to do so. The hon. Gentleman may disagree, as may others, but they take the debate slightly away from the right of prisoners to vote to the subject of the European Union, on which there will be a longer debate—[Interruption.] I mean aspects of the European Court and human rights that will be the subject of another debate in the main Chamber.

It is right that the Minister should clarify why four years was chosen. In the briefings that I have seen, the justification is that four years is the cut-off point between a short-term prison sentence and a long-term one. I have seen no other argument for why that threshold should have been chosen. The Minister should respond to that point.

The Minister should also respond to the hon. Member for Kettering and others, who said that concern had been expressed that compensation might have to be paid. If a total of 85,000 prisoners claimed £750 compensation, it could amount to tens of millions of pounds. The Minister will have heard that some accuse the Government of making up the figures. I hope that he will tell us where the information about these potential compensation claims came from and say whether he stands by the contention that the Government might be liable for a large number of claims if no action is taken.

I hope that the Minister will also explain why the voting rights that he proposes are to apply to Westminster and European elections only, and not to other polls. If the Government were to allow prisoners to vote in local elections exclusively, it could be argued that prisoners would be less able to influence the Government’s prison agenda if they could vote only in local council elections. I would be interested to hear why those two elections were chosen.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Tom Brake]

In a moment. The Minister has rightly made it clear that if the proposals go through, prisoners will be allowed to vote only in the constituencies that they came from or with which they have a connection and not in the constituency in which the prison is placed. The risk of large numbers of prisoners swinging an election result will therefore be greatly reduced.

[Mr Gray]

The hon. Gentleman has partly answered my question. Does he accept that if prisoners are allowed to vote in local elections in places such as Wandsworth or Wormwood Scrubs, they would have a decisive number of votes in tight elections?