Cities and Local Government Devolution [Lords] Bill

Lord Brady of Altrincham Excerpts

Wednesday 21st October 2015 Commons Chamber

[James Wharton]

I recognise the hon. Gentleman’s diligence in raising his concern, particularly given that that is his area of expertise. Rather than my commenting on it in the debate on this Bill, however, I would gently suggest that it is a matter that should be discussed in a Welsh context in the debates on the Wales Bill.

[Mr Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con)]

The Minister has given the welcome assurance to my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg) that no rural area neighbouring an urban or metropolitan area would be held to becoming a member of it. Will he also give the Committee an assurance that any rural area wishing to join a combined or mayoral authority will be able to do so?

[James Wharton]

That would be entirely a matter for the proposal put forward by the local area in question. We would certainly be open to whatever geography an area wished to present as the most logical for its economy and the most able to allow it to drive forward the changes and improvements we envisage being enabled by the Bill. So yes, that would be possible, but only by agreement and in line with the Government’s approach to devolution.

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[Mr Betts]

I want to make a very few points, because I know that other Members want to speak, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), who has tabled a number of amendments and has a long track record of constructive engagement in matters of constitutional reform and devolution of which I am very supportive. He did excellent work on that in the last Parliament.

My first point is about the question of elected mayors and takes me back to the point I made on Second Reading. If the Government are committed to considering bespoke arrangements on devolution for particular parts of our country and considering requests from combined authorities—groups of authorities voluntarily coming together and proposing what they want to see devolved—why do we need one element of imposition in all this? Why do we need one element that says that they can have the powers they come up with providing that agreement is reached but that they must exercise them in a particular way and that there is no ability to discuss that or come to a different view? I find it completely inconsistent with the rest of the Government’s approach.

I do not know why the Government are so insistent on having a mayor as a solution. If it was left to the combined authorities, they would come up with different arrangements. The arrangement in Sheffield has been negotiated not because the combined authorities wanted it but because they were told that they had to have it or else they could not have devolution. That is the situation.

[Mr Graham Brady]

I absolutely agree with the thrust of the hon. Gentleman’s remarks. Does he share my view that the element of imposition in the proposals means that there is a danger that the devolution proposals put in place will enjoy lower levels of support than they otherwise might if communities had been properly consulted and allowed to choose their own models of governance?

[Mr Betts]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Of course, the whole principle of the devolution that the Government propose, which I support, is that areas should come forward with their own ideas about what they want to see devolved. Why should they not also come forward with their own ideas about how that devolution should be exercised and about the governance arrangements for it?

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[Ann Coffey]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right; it is a good thing. When people talk to me—and, I am sure, when they talk to him—and ask who they can go to, to them having a mayor makes perfect sense.

Of course, there are outstanding issues with regard to health, but there is nothing in the Bill that will take away from the people of Manchester the right to national health services enjoyed by people elsewhere. The problem in Greater Manchester is the fragmentation of health, so it is good that these proposals will help reduce the number of commissioning organisations and allow providers to work together in a more collaborative way for the benefit of local people. However, we need a funding settlement that gives greater flexibility in developing high-quality health and social care services in the community across Greater Manchester as an alternative to hospital admissions, and at the moment it is difficult for each clinical commissioning group to free up resources in order to do that. Without that investment, the demand for expensive hospital care will continue. The authority cannot simply be a bank that hands out money under the current funding arrangements.

There has been a lot of talk about accountability, but in my experience accountability is at its best when well-informed elected representatives, such as my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), demand answers and are willing to make their case loudly and publicly. No complexity in the arrangements for governance can take the place of that, and that is the accountability that the public expect us to ask for.

Last year I did some work looking into child sexual exploitation across Greater Manchester, at the request of the police and crime commissioner, Tony Lloyd, and following that I published my report “Real Voices” last October. Talking to children at risk of child sexual exploitation, it is absolutely clear that they do not observe local government boundaries, health boundaries or police boundaries, and neither do their predators. The digital age has redefined boundaries. A lot of progress on that has already been made across Greater Manchester. In particular, I want to congratulate Project Phoenix, a cross-boundary, multi-agency response to child sexual exploitation across the whole of Greater Manchester, which is working to ensure that child victims receive the same standard of response regardless of where they live. It has also initiated a very successful “It’s not okay” campaign to build public awareness of child sexual exploitation and help young people recognise when they are being groomed. It is clear that work on this crucial agenda will be enhanced by more devolution powers for Greater Manchester. We must overcome the silos and boundaries that prevent people working together to protect children from abuse.

Amendment 51, if passed, would be a kick in the teeth for the people of Greater Manchester and their children, who have felt for years that their voices have been ignored by Whitehall and Westminster. Devolution and the creation of a mayor offer the opportunity to the people of Greater Manchester to develop services that reflect their priorities and needs. We should take that opportunity and be positive about the opportunities we are being offered.

[Mr Brady]

I am pleased to have an opportunity to participate in this brief debate in Committee. We have already had some useful exchanges, and my hon. Friend the Minister has, as usual, been courteous and helpful—I am sure that he will be even more helpful before the end of our proceedings.

The hon. Member for Stockport (Ann Coffey) spoke with obvious passion, and we all very much appreciate the work she did on child sexual exploitation, but I want to pick up on the point she made right at the end of her speech, despite my hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (William Wragg) making it clear that amendment 51 would require a simple majority in the referendum, whatever the explanatory statement might say. I think that she can relax about the prospect of any kick in the teeth for local people.

[Ann Coffey]

I understand from my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), who is very knowledgeable in these matters, that it is the Member who writes the explanatory statement for an amendment, not the Clerks.

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[Mr Brady]

I should not speak for my hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove in this instance, although I will put on the record my gratitude to the Clerks for their assistance in drafting the amendments and explanatory statements that stand in my name. I will speak briefly to amendments 42, 43 and 44, allude to amendment 51—I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove will speak to it in due course—and comment on Government amendment 4.

[Mr Nuttall]

I want to try to clarify the point about the 50% threshold. In a referendum in which the electorate vote either yes or no, what we are trying to make clear is that it would have to have the support of over 50% of the people voting in the referendum. It is no more complicated than that.

[Mr Brady]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who expresses the matter clearly and succinctly.

We have already shed light on a number of important things. I particularly welcome the Minister’s reassurance, which is important to those of us who are evangelists for devolution for the Greater Manchester area, that in due course, when it has proved as successful as we all hope it will be, some of the neighbouring authorities such as Cheshire East Council—I am delighted to see my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley) here—might apply to be part of the journey to this great new world on which we are embarking. I am sure that he would not be alone in wishing to come and join us.

[David Rutley]

I have great respect for my hon. Friend, who is indeed a great friend. Like him, I would absolutely love to see devolution succeed in Greater Manchester, in partnership with authorities in the counties around it, including East Cheshire unitary authority.

[Mr Brady]

I am glad to have enabled my hon. Friend to speak for himself.

Amendment 42 seeks a very simple and not terribly onerous change. It would simply require the Government to report annually on how they have exercised their functions in order to demonstrate that they have not themselves exercised any of the devolved functions that rightly belong with the combined authority or the mayoral authority. There might be better ways of doing this, and I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will put forward his own proposals in due course. However, the underlying point is that although the Government have been very pleased to place obligations on local authorities through the process of forming agreements or deals, as the Secretary of State likes to term them, very little in the Bill as it stands provides any mechanism to hold the Government to account and ensure that they fulfil their side of the bargain. I think that would be welcomed by everybody who is an evangelist for devolution—as I am sure we all are.

The Minister alluded to amendments 43 and 44, which seek to provide an easier route for exit. I happily accept that, as the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) said, it would be very difficult for any authority to leave a combined authority, especially a mayoral authority, at some point in the future. An enormous number of functions, agreements, financial obligations and so on will bind local authorities together, increasingly so as the years pass, and therefore no local authority would do this lightly. However, the ability to leave, should the devolution arrangements not work in practice for any one or more of the local authorities in an area, is, in some ways, the ultimate guarantee that no abuse should take place. It is particularly important that we should have such a safeguard if we reach the end of our deliberations without a referendum lock in place. If the public are not to be given the choice as to whether they want to have the elected mayor and this new structure of governance put in place over them, surely there must be a safeguard so that if, at a future date, the new arrangements were not working for the people of Trafford, Bury, Stockport or Bolton, they could seek to leave, without penalty, to find a new way of providing services and representation to the local community.

Amendment 51 calls for a referendum test to be passed. This also relates to Government amendment 4. I think the only reason the Government are so determined to overturn the amendment passed in another place which seeks to prevent conditionality—local authorities being told they are allowed to have devolution only if they accept the model of an elected mayor as a condition—is that negotiations in Greater Manchester have moved as far as they have under those conditions. It seems wrong that the Government are expecting local authorities to accept a particular model of governance as the price for this kind of devolution settlement, particularly if the Government do not have the self-confidence to consult the people and to believe in their own argument such that they could persuade the public that it is something they ought to welcome. This is the ultimate test of the Government’s arguments. The Minister is a very persuasive man, as we have seen in the Chamber today. I am certain that with his enthusiasm, charm and powers of persuasion, he could go out and sell this proposition to the people of Greater Manchester, and perhaps to those in Sheffield and other parts of the country. I wish that he would have the confidence in his own abilities that we all have.

[Nigel Mills]

I am sorry, obviously, to interrupt the much deserved flattery. Does my hon. Friend accept that, especially in areas outside Manchester, none of the council leaders proposing these deals has been elected on such a mandate? I do not recall that in the 2013 county council elections there was any suggestion of “Vote Labour and we’ll try and create an elected metro mayor for Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire combined.” I agree with local decision making and I support these changes, but there is no local electoral mandate for them.

[Mr Brady]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. In my Greater Manchester constituency, the level of knowledge of what is being proposed on changes in governance is still remarkably low. Certainly, it was not a significant feature of the general election campaign or the last local election campaign. We need to try to create a better level of knowledge and engagement.

[Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)]

It is correct that no political party has so far campaigned on a metro mayor, but can the hon. Gentleman tell me of any political party, in Greater Manchester or elsewhere, that has ever campaigned on more power for central Government? In fact, the opposite has always been true. Having written Labour party manifestos several times, I know that political parties have always asked for more decentralised power.

[Mr Brady]

The hon. Gentleman and I agree in a distressingly large number of circumstances, and I absolutely agree with what he says now. Most of us are very firmly in favour of the devolution of powers from central Government to a level closer to the people, but we are discussing the mechanism for governance and whether people should have the right to consent to changes in that mechanism.

My hon. Friend the Minister says that this is a necessary package. Clearly, the position that the Government are seeking to establish is one where we can have these levels of devolution only with the particular type of accountability that comes through a directly elected mayor. In that case, does he not believe that that can be put to the people of Greater Manchester as a package? If the benefits of the devolution package are sufficiently good to make it an attractive proposition—if enough of the powers that the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) and I would like to come closer to the people are being devolved—perhaps even those who are sceptical about the elected mayor model might accept it as a whole. I hope that the Minister, in looking at how the Government might more effectively take on board the views of local people, will consider that possibility as well as the one we have put before the Committee in amendment 51.

[Mr Graham Allen]

Before I begin, I should inform the Committee of the breaking news that our good friend Michael Meacher, the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton, has passed away. He was a good friend to many people in this House, and I am sure there will be an appropriate moment for us all to pay tribute to a fine parliamentarian and good friend.

This is my first opportunity to put on record my gratitude and the thanks of the House to my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Ann Coffey), who seized the opportunity to produce a magnificent report on areas in and around her constituency. I hope she will take great pleasure in the fact that the Government are now actively considering creating a What Works institution to address the sexual abuse of children. It will ensure not only that people are not victimised, but that perpetrators do not repeat their offences. I hope she feels that her work has been rewarded. I know that was not what she was looking for, but she put a great amount of energy and thought into a very difficult subject.

Turning to the Bill, I want us to think about where we might be in 2020. As I said on Second Reading, I suspect there will be at least one more devolution Bill—possibly two—so the Bill under discussion is getting the ball rolling, and as we progress I think that many of the edges to which Members on both sides of the Committee have rightly referred will be knocked off.

If the Government were minded to approve the 38 bids they have received, that would give devolution to about 80% of English local authorities. There is, therefore, not a lot more to do in terms of taking coverage further, but there is a lot more to be done in a number of specific areas. I hope that the Minister, who kindly said he would listen carefully to my remarks on my proposed amendments, will be able to use them and others to ensure that we get a practical devolution settlement that sticks and delivers for people. That cannot happen under this Bill, which is about beginning the evolution of the process. I commend the Government for that.

I am pleased to see present one colleague from the Scottish National party, the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss). Whatever our differences with the SNP, it is not the only party that got votes in Scotland at the general election, although one could be forgiven for sometimes thinking that that was the case. In fact, if we were operating under a proportional system, many more Labour, Conservative and Liberal Members of Parliament would be representing Scotland.

Putting that aside, we can learn a great many things from the package given by the Westminster Parliament to Scotland after intense negotiations. It could be used as a template for further English, Welsh and Northern Irish devolution. We should try, with a lot of humility, to understand how the package—which resulted from negotiations prior to the referendum—works, how it came about and how it could be applied to the rest of the UK. The answer to any argument in favour of separatism is that everybody in the United Kingdom should enjoy the maximum amount of devolution and run as much of their own affairs as possible, whether that be nationally—as in Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland—locally, or at the level below that of the local council.

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Functions

[Mr Brady]

I beg to move amendment 45, in page 4, line 18, at end add

‘provided that in each exercise of that function the mayor has the consent of each constituent part of a combined authority.’

The intention of this amendment is that any constituent part of a combined authority may veto any decision made by a mayor of a combined authority.

[The Temporary Chair (Mr David Crausby)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 40, in page 4, line 18, at end insert—

‘(1A) An order under subsection (1) may only be made with the consent of the relevant combined authority; and that consent must be obtained prior to the creation of the office of mayor in the combined authority concerned’.

The intention of this amendment is that a function of a mayoral authority may only be transferred to the mayor with the consent of the relevant combined authority, which must be obtained prior to the creation of the relevant office of mayor.

Government amendments 5 to 7.

Amendment 60, in page 5, leave out lines 9 and 10.

As it stands the Bill removes the right of the Secretary of State to give borrowing powers to an elected mayor but allows for borrowing powers to be given to a combined authority. The amendment will allow borrowing powers to be given to an elected mayor.

Government amendment 8.

Clause 5 stand part.

Government amendments 23 to 25.

That schedule 2 be the Second schedule to the Bill.

Clauses 6 and 7 stand part.

Amendment 41, in clause 8, page 8, line 20, leave out from beginning to end of line 12 on page 10 and insert—

‘(1) The Secretary of State may by order make provision for a function of the Secretary of State that is exercisable in relation to a combined authority’s area to be a function of a mayor of a combined authority;

(2) An order under subsection (1) may not include provision about the exercise of functions currently exercised by local authorities.’

The intention of this amendment is that the only powers that can be given to a mayor of a combined authority are powers currently exercised by central government.

Amendment 54, page 8, line 27, at end insert—

‘(c) make provision for conferring on a combined authority, upon the request of that authority in relation to its area the full retention of business rates, business rate supplements, council tax, stamp duty land tax, annual tax on enveloped dwellings, capital gains property disposal tax, and multi- year finance settlements.’

This amendment will allow local authorities to retain all of their local taxation, including Business Rates and Council Tax.

Amendment 55, page 8, line 27, at end insert—

‘(c) make provision for conferring on a combined authority in relation to its area discretionary control of council tax discounts, business rate discounts and supplements, and other local fees, charges and subsidies in relation to other retained taxes.’

This amendment will allow local authorities to control all of their local taxation discounts, including those applicable to Business Rates and Council Tax.

Clause 8 stand part.

Clause 17 stand part.

Amendment 48, in clause 18, page 17, line 48, after “consents,” insert

‘and in the County of Somerset, as defined by the Lieutenancies Act 1997, approved by a referendum in the local authority area’.

Government amendment 15.

Clause 18 stand part.

Clause 9 stand part.

Amendment 1, in schedule 3, page 32, line 12, after “persons” insert

‘including representatives of parish, neighbourhood, community and other councils in the area of the combined authority’.

This amendment would allow local representation from parish, neighbourhood, community and other council is to attend combined authority scrutiny meetings.

That schedule 3 be the Third schedule to the Bill.

Government amendment 9.

Amendment 58, in clause 10, page 11, line 26, at end insert—

‘(5) The Secretary of State may by order make provision for conferring powers on a combined authority to set multi-year finance settlements.’

This amendment is intended to offer financial stability to city regions, allowing them long-term planning which is something not currently offered by the finance settlement or the funding of local enterprise partnerships (LEPs).

Clauses 10 to 14 stand part.

Amendment 49, in clause 15, page 14, line 43, at end insert—

‘(d) In the County of Somerset, as defined by the Lieutenancies Act 1997, approved by a referendum in the local authority area.’

Clause 15 stand part.

Government amendment 10.

Amendment 2, in clause 16, page 16, line 6, at end insert—

‘(d) the creation of a Constitutional Convention to discuss further local authority governance, functions and related democratic issues.’

This amendment creates the means by which every UK citizen can participate in a national public discussion on local devolution in the context of the wider renewal of UK democracy.

Government amendment 11.

Amendment 47, in page 16, line 11, after “apply” insert

‘and in the County of Somerset, as defined by the Lieutenancies Act 1997, approved by a referendum in the local authority area’.

Amendment 50, in page 16, line 11, at end insert—

‘( ) In the case of two tier authorities, consent under section 16(3) may also be given where a majority of local authorities in the local authority area have indicated their support.’

Government amendments 12, 14 and 13.

Clause 16 stand part.

New clause 2—Subsidiarity—

‘That Subsidiarity as defined by the Maastricht Treaty 1992 Article 5(3) shall apply to the functions of national and local government.’

This new clause would build in local government’s independence by using the principle of subsidiarity found in European law.

New clause 4—Local Government Constitutional Convention—

‘(1) A convention is to be held to consider and make recommendations on the constitution of local government in the United Kingdom.

(2) The Secretary of State must make regulations to—

(a) appoint a day on which the convention must commence its operations,

(b) make fair and transparent rules about how the convention is to operate and how evidence is to be adduced,

(c) make further provision about the terms of reference prescribed under section (Local Government Constitutional Convention: terms of reference), and

(d) specify how those who are to be part of the convention are to be chosen in accordance with section (Local Government Constitutional Convention: composition).

(3) The date appointed under subsection (2)(a) must not be later than 31 December 2016.’

This new clause creates the means by which every UK citizen can engage in a national public discussion of devolution local government, governance and electoral systems and make recommendations and receive a response from government and parliament to that national debate.

New clause 5—Local Government Constitutional Convention: terms of reference—

‘The convention must consider the following terms of reference—

‘(a) the devolution of legislative and fiscal competence to local authorities within the United Kingdom,

(b) the reform of the electoral system for local government,

(c) constitutional matters relating to local government to be considered in further conventions, and

(d) procedures to govern the consideration and implementation of any future constitutional reforms in relation to local government.’

This new clause creates the means by which every UK citizen can engage in a national public discussion of devolution local government, governance and electoral systems and make recommendations and receive a response from government and parliament to that national debate.

New clause 6—Local Government Constitutional Convention: recommendations—

‘(1) The Local Government Constitutional Convention must publish recommendations within the period of one year beginning with the day appointed under section (Local Government Constitutional Convention).

(2) The Secretary of State must lay responses to each of the recommendations before each House of Parliament within six months beginning with the day on which the recommendations are published.’

This new clause creates the means by which every UK citizen can engage in a national public discussion of devolution local government, governance and electoral systems and make recommendations and receive a response from government and parliament to that national debate.

New clause 7—Local Government Constitutional Convention: composition—

‘(1) The Local Government Constitutional Convention must be composed of representatives of the following—

(a) registered political parties within the United Kingdom,

(b) local authorities, and

(c) the nations and regions of the United Kingdom.

(2) At least 50% of the members of the convention must not be employed in a role which can reasonably be considered to be political.”

This new clause creates the means by which every UK citizen can engage in a national public discussion of devolution local government, governance and electoral systems and make recommendations and receive a response from government and parliament to that national debate.

New clause 10—Housing devolution to London—

“In any enactment relating to housing, any power or duty of the Secretary of State applicable to any person or dwelling shall be exercisable in the Greater London area only by the Mayor of London, with the consent of the Greater London Assembly.’

This new clause provides for devolution to London of the Secretary of State’s housing powers.

New clause 11—Local property taxes devolution to London—

‘(1) There shall be London Consolidated Fund into which shall be paid each month a sum equivalent to the previous month’s tax receipts in relation to properties in the greater London area accruing from—

(a) the stamp duty land tax,

(b) capital transfer tax,

(c) the annual tax on enveloped dwellings, and

(d) capital gains property disposal tax.

(2) The Treasury must consult the Mayor of London and the Greater London Assembly on what band and rates should be applied in respect of the Greater London area for the next financial year in respect of each of the taxes mentioned in subsection (1).’

This new clause provides for devolution to London of the receipts from taxes on property and for formal consultation with the Treasury on the rates of those taxes to be set for the greater London area.

New clause 12—Local Government Financial Integrity—

‘(1) Local authorities shall be financially independent of central government, save as otherwise provided for by this section.

(2) Central government may not place any restriction on decisions by local authorities about the exercise of their financial powers.

(3) The distribution of central government funds between local authorities shall continue on the basis of existing equalisation arrangements. Distribution will continue to be based on the principle of ensuring fairness and balance between local authorities. The basis on which this distribution is carried out must continue to be made public.

(4) Each local authority shall receive from central government a guaranteed share of the annual yield of income tax, as follows. Central government must in each financial year assign to the Secretary of State responsible for the distribution of central government funds between local authorities an amount of money equivalent to the yield from ten pence in the pound of income tax. The Secretary of State must make arrangements to inform each taxpayer in England of the amount of their income tax which makes up the central government funding distributed to English local authorities as a whole.

(5) The amount of the income tax yield referred to in subsection (4) shall be renegotiated between central and local government whenever service provision responsibilities are transferred between central government and local authorities.

(6) Local authorities may raise additional sources of income in their areas in any way they wish, and with the consent of their electorates as expressed through arrangements to be determined and put in place by the local authority concerned.

(7) Local authorities shall be able to raise any loans, bonds or other financial instruments which their credit rating allows and as independent entities will be exclusively responsible for their repayment. All local authorities shall operate a balanced budget so that in any one financial year all outgoings, including interest repayments on borrowings, shall not exceed income.

(8) Central government may not cap, or in any other way limit, local authorities’ taxation powers.

(9) The financial transparency standards that apply to central government shall apply to local authorities.

(10) Central government and local authorities may contract with each other in order to pursue their own policy objectives.’

The intention of this new clause is that receipts from income tax should be assigned to the Department for Communities and Local Government who will then pass it on to councils.

New clause 14—Power to create new council tax bands—

‘(1) Section 5 of the Local Government Finance Act 1992 is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (4) omit “The Secretary of State may by order, as regards financial years beginning on or after such date as is specified in the order” and insert “A local authority may for any future financial year”.

(3) Omit subsection (5).’

The intention of this new clause is to devolve to councils the power to create new council tax bands.

New clause 15—Abolition of referendums relating to council tax increases—

‘(1) In Part 1of the Local Government Finance Act 1992 (council tax: England and Wales) after Chapter 4 omit the Chapter set out in Schedule 5 to the Localism Act 2011.

(2) Schedule 6 to the Localism Act 2011(council tax referendums: further amendments) ceases to have effect.’

The intention of this new clause is to end the council tax referendum system.

New clause 16—Effective devolution committees—

‘(1) The functions of local authorities include the formation of committees to collect and analyse data on effective performance by local authorities of powers and functions devolved to them.

(2) The Secretary of State must not give any directions to such committees.’

The intention of this new clause is to enable Local Government to set up its own “what works” organisation on devolution to examine what’s effective, either independently or in partnership with, but separate from, the Department for Communities and Local Government.

New clause 17—Scale of devolution—

‘(1) The extent of the devolution of powers and functions to local authorities must not be dependent on the size of the population of the local authority.’

The intention of this new clause is to provide flexibility for devolution on varying scales and foot prints instead of linking the amount of devolution to the size of the recipient.

Government amendments 26, 30 and 31.

[Mr Brady]

I shall be brief. Amendments 40, 41 and 45 relate to a variety of questions regarding the precise powers that are to be transferred under a devolution settlement, including whether powers can be devolved down from Government and whether there is any danger or any possibility that might preclude the danger of powers being pulled up from local government and vested at a level further from the people, which I believe to be the case under the Bill as it stands.

Essentially, amendment 45, by providing a veto for any one authority in a combined authority or mayoral authority area over any decision, would establish what, in the context of the Prime Minister’s negotiations on the EU relationship, we would refer to as sovereignty. It is the opposite of the arrangement in the Bill, which we would, I suppose, call qualified majority voting. The current provisions would clearly allow a majority position in the mayoral authority to prevail over a serious objection from one, two or perhaps three authorities. If I read the Bill correctly, in fact, I think that most of the vetoes in the Greater Manchester agreement would require two-thirds opposition to a measure to prevent it from proceeding.

Amendment 45 makes it very clear that although we are pleased to participate in the new arrangement, or to enhance the existing arrangement of a combined authority, which works very well, we believe that the fundamental power in this relationship ought to reside with the local authority or with each of the local authorities in the area. If the amendment were to be agreed, it would provide that protection. As with the amendments we discussed in the earlier group, which I did not press to a vote, I do not intend to press these amendments to a Division in Committee, in the hope that Ministers will reflect on them and consider whether there are more effective ways in which these guarantees and safeguards could be provided.

Similarly, amendment 40 seeks to establish what one might call a “foundation status”. It would give a special status to the original devolution agreement, which has been acceded to by the leaders of the local authorities in Greater Manchester, which is obviously the instance I know best. The intention is that it would limit the transfer of powers from local authorities, in particular, to any transfer that might take place before the establishment of the mayoral authority and would therefore prevent any further transfers. The amendment might not be perfect, and there might be flaws in how it is drafted, but I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will accept that there is a real and important point that at the moment of the inception of the mayoral authority there is a degree of consent from the local authorities, but that consent might be less certain at a later stage.

Finally, amendment 41 seeks to provide an explicit guarantee. Ministers are very clear in their statements and Members on both sides of the House have been quite enthusiastic about the principle that we are seeking to move decision making and spending closer to people, taking functions away from central Government and moving them to a more local or regional tier. The hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) spoke previously to his amendments seeking to establish a principle that could allow powers always to cascade down to the lowest level—something with which many of us feel a natural sympathy.

However, the Bill as it stands provides the possibility for powers to move in the opposite direction—for a local authority in any one year under any political control to decide that it wishes to cede decision making to the mayoral authority level. It is conceivable that the present Conservative Government will last for no more than another three or four Parliaments, and at some point in the future there could be a Government of another party in place. It is conceivable that a Minister less benign and less wise than my hon. Friend on the Front Bench may seek to lock into a mayoral tier of government powers sucked up from the local level.

Amendment 41 would provide a guarantee that what Ministers say they intend to achieve through the Bill and what most of us would like to see—the transfer of powers down from central Government—will indeed be the effect of the Bill, and not the reverse, the danger that the process will lead to decisions being taken further away from people, rather than closer to them.

[Mr Graham Allen]

Again, I shall speak about a number of issues that relate to the bigger principles and can perhaps be considered as a warm-up for the next devolution Bill, which must surely come within a couple of years, as I said in my earlier contribution, to knock the edges off this pioneering Bill, which brings serious devolution to England for the first time in my political lifetime. I tabled a number of amendments and I shall speak first to amendment 2, which is about a constitutional convention.

The work that I have been doing on a constitutional convention, which is the policy of my party and others, becomes ever more pertinent. We do not want to do parts of the jigsaw, but never see the bigger picture. Unless we step back and have a constitutional convention, we will not see how voting systems interlock with the role of a second Chamber, with the nations within the Union, and with the role of independent and devolved local government as the agents of devolution in England. This is an important Bill providing one part of that jigsaw, but at some point in the next five years we need a mechanism to allow us—hopefully, all parties—to get together, take a pace back and ask, “Where does this leave us? Where does it leave the Union? Where does it leave our democracy?”

I have spoken about the evolutionary approach to English devolution of the Minister and the Secretary of State, and I have commended both. Where does that necessarily piecemeal approach leave us in terms of the future of our country? That cannot be the property of any one party, nor should it be. The parties here have a role as a midwife, ensuring that this concept has a fair wind and is set up properly, is properly funded and provided for and has proper means of public participation, but that is all.

The political parties should take a step back from any convention, whether on local Government or on our wider democracy, and allow the citizens of the United Kingdom their say, perhaps under the auspices of one of the great and the good—an archbishop, a High Court judge or whoever they want to suggest—as worked so well in Scotland. That led to the smooth—it was also protracted, but necessarily so—development of devolution there, culminating in the Scotland Bill that was before us only a few weeks ago.