BBC Charter Review

Debate between Gavin Robinson and Gregory Campbell

Tuesday 17th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Campbell]

Given that my hon. Friend is a master of both taking and making interventions, I agree with his comment.

The previous Government made a statement in April, which was just six or seven months ago. It explained that the purpose of the charter review was:

“To take stock, at the Charter’s half-way point, and evaluate the effectiveness of the BBC’s governance and regulation.”

The statement continued:

“The role of public service broadcasting and a free press has never been more significant than it is today. We are all living in an era of fake news”—

the Government were certainly right about that—

“where social media creates echo chambers of opinion, presents individual experience as established fact and mis and disinformation go unchallenged.”

That sets the context for the mid-term review.

I will move on to the comments made by the director general of the BBC, who has repeatedly said that he wants to see greater accountability from the organisation. I agree with him that the BBC should be more accountable; hopefully, the new manifestation of the charter will explain and expand on that. For example, we have had over a number of years what the BBC calls the “on-screen talent”. They have only recently had to declare their BBC salaries publicly; I and others campaigned for that over many years. Many people said it would never be done, but thankfully it was. Now we see, year on year, the top presenters all having their BBC salaries declared. So they should, because we the public pay those salaries, and ought to know what they are.

There is another point that the charter review should take account of. A small number of presenters have their BBC salaries declared, but some of them have private companies, which get commissioned to make programmes that appear on the BBC. We are not allowed to know what the proceeds of those commissioned programmes are, so it could be the case that some on-screen talent get, for example, £300,000 or even over £400,000 a year. They are paid directly by the BBC for their appearances on the BBC, but because they have a private company that gets commissioned to make programmes, they get additional sums of money. We do not know whether that is a substantial five-figure sum, or even a substantial six-figure sum. The director general says that he wants to see greater accountability, and we want to see the sums. Hopefully, the charter review can address that.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

My hon. Friend mentions information that should be shared, and accountability. What about transparency in commissioning? He has raised this issue on a number of occasions over the years. Is he satisfied that there is transparency in the commissioning process? Is there opportunity and fairness in the process, or is there a greater opportunity to inject transparency through the charter review?

[Mr Campbell]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely correct: there is a lack of transparency. I and others have raised the issue of presenters who do their BBC work and so know what kinds of programmes the BBC is looking for. They have an inside track, because they have a private company that is advantageously placed to get a contract. The BBC has been very dilatory in opening up about what that means, how it is reviewed and how the organisation is made accountable. There is a significant lack of transparency.

I turn to the issue of the BBC using licence payers’ money in an accountable and transparent way. We had a recent example just last month, when we had a general election in the Irish Republic. I understand that there is a read-across for Northern Ireland from the outcome of that general election, but the BBC in Northern Ireland already has two full-time reporters based in Dublin, who one would assume were well placed to cover the Irish general election over the three-week period. However, in addition to those two full-time Republic of Ireland-based reporters, the BBC dispatched its Northern Ireland political editor from Belfast, a BBC correspondent from Belfast, a reporter for BBC Newsline from Belfast and a senior journalist from BBC Radio Foyle. All were dispatched to Dublin in addition to the two personnel that the BBC already had in Dublin, to cover the general election in the Irish Republic. We are not allowed to know the cost of that coverage of the Irish Republic election, but hopefully the charter review can look at expenditure accountability.

The other issue I want to raise is the recent phenomenon known as BBC Verify. Danny Cohen, a former director of BBC television, has said:

“BBC Verify claims to represent a new gold standard in BBC reporting, but the frequency with which it has had to correct stories does not suggest that it is meeting these lofty aims”.

If a former director of BBC television, describing a very recent phenomenon that was supposedly set up to establish the BBC as the overseer of the verification of other news outlets, is saying that it does not really live up to its description, something has to be done to ensure that it does so. If there is going to be verification, it must stand up to close scrutiny.

I would hope that the Minister, whom I thank for being in her place, will take this opportunity to respond to the points that have been made. I fully understand that the BBC, in terms of its output and its day-to-day transmission, is a separate body over which no one in Parliament should have any say, and we accept that that is the case, but accountability, transparency and the lack of impartiality that is often displayed in BBC output must be covered by the review of the charter. I hope we can hear something productive from the mid-term review, and I look forward to the Minister’s response.

European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill

Debate between Gavin Robinson and Gregory Campbell

2nd reading
Friday 6th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Robinson]

This Bill does not take us back. If we are interested in building trust and resetting our relationship with the European Union, why is it not conceivable that we could get to a place where we respect one another, acknowledge one another’s purity of legal services and legal systems, and recognise the importance of the rule of law and the ability to mutually enforce standards with one another? Why is that so inconceivable?

Why is it possible for the European Union to outline a system that allows goods to move from the Republic of Ireland through Northern Ireland and into GB without any border checks, but not the other way around? Why? Will anyone stand back and ask themselves whether all of this, with the attendant hassle and constitutional impairment, is necessary or worth it? It cannot be sustained, neither practically nor pragmatically.

The impositions are not required. We started this journey in a place of equilibrium on standards. When we left the European Union, our standards and theirs were exactly the same. Mutual enforcement was not mythical then, and it is not magical now. There is no reason why I cannot conceive a solution based on a reset of relations, if necessary, and a rebuilding of trust so that mutual enforcement is the better answer.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

If the Bill is talked out, as seems almost inevitable given the attitude of Labour Members, the Prime Minister has indicated that he will speak with representatives of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland in the next few days. If the Labour Government are saying, “Yes, there is an opportunity to make progress and, yes, there are difficulties to be resolved,” does my right hon. Friend agree that there is an opportunity in the next few days for the Prime Minister to tell us exactly what he is going to do if Labour Members do not support the Bill?

[Gavin Robinson]

I agree wholeheartedly with my hon. Friend.

I want to give the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Rachel Blake) another example. She will have heard colleagues in interventions, she will have heard the hon. Member for South Antrim (Robin Swann) at Prime Minister’s questions and she will have heard me at Northern Ireland questions raise the issue of the general product safety regulations that come into force next Friday. What is the best answer we had from the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland? “We are in discussions.” What do we hear from Labour Members? “It’s in train.”

Information should have been given to businesses long before next Friday, but have I ever heard a Labour Member say, “Actually, in January 2024, the Conservative Government extended the February 2023 agreement to adhere to the requirements and standards of EU safety markings—the CE markings on goods—and general product safety”? Why are we in a situation where our Government—the last Government, but still our Government—agreed to adhere to EU standards on general product safety, only to find that, come next Friday, it will all be too problematic for GB businesses to trade with a part of the United Kingdom? It is wrong. It should not be the case, and it is not at all satisfactory that we are talking today about the aspiration to have a solution when this comes in on Friday. Businesses should already have the information.