80th Anniversary of Victory in Europe and Victory over Japan

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Friday 9th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, what an honour it is to follow the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, in this most apposite of debates. I thank him for moving the Motion to commemorate the final surrender of the malign Nazi forces and their acolytes, which brought to a conclusion such a notable period of this nation’s history. It is indeed, as it was then, a time of celebration, remembrance and deep reflection.

It was 80 years ago yesterday when our great war leader, the roaring lion, stood at this very Dispatch Box and announced to this Chamber—which was at the time the House of Commons—that the evil that had descended upon Europe had been defeated. This was, of course, the culmination of five and a half years of sustained and bitter fighting and unspeakable violence; five and a half years of the British public sacrificing so much in support of the war effort; five and a half years of families—virtually every family—being torn apart.

This week we pay tribute to our forebears who stood firm against the menace of tyranny, who did not and would not flag or fail, and who went on to the bitter end in defence of all of our freedoms. But it is the events of the week leading up to that eventual surrender of the German forces that I would like to reflect upon today.

On 5 May 1945, a Lieutenant S Charlton of the 53rd Reconnaissance Regiment was instructed by his commanding officer to investigate reports of a concentration camp nearby their posting just outside Hamburg. Lieutenant Charlton was the first British officer to arrive at Neuengamme concentration camp. What he uncovered there was demonstrable evidence of the repugnant wickedness of the Nazi regime, a horrifying microcosm of the very reason why it was so vital to overcome the enemy. After cautiously approaching the camp, he found it deserted apart from a lone police officer guarding the entrance. As he was inspecting the barracks, he encountered two former prisoners who offered to guide him through the camp.

Lieutenant Charlton recounted in his report that he stumbled across a building that, at first glance, he believed was a butcher’s shop or a dairy. It was not. Later, the building was found to have been a medical experimentation centre where Dr Kurt Heissmeyer had undertaken live experiments on 20 Jewish children towards the end of 1944. Those children were injected with tuberculosis, operated on and eventually hanged at the Bullenhuser Damm school on 20 April 1945, just weeks before the arrival of British troops and the liberation of Neuengamme. Charlton remarked in his report that the place appeared to have been thoroughly cleaned. He found only rubber gloves and what he took to be a preserved human heart in a bottle.

From the records salvaged from the camp and the testimonies at the later war crimes trials, a more comprehensive account of the horror that occurred at Neuengamme was pieced together. The camp was built in 1938 by 100 inmates transferred from Sachsenhausen. Prisoners were forced to work in weapons factories, in mines, on building sites or on the railways, labouring under the most inhumane of conditions. Evidence collected by the British Army of the Rhine’s war crimes group described the almost complete absence of footwear and the transportation of prisoners too sick to work to the death camps for their ultimate and untimely murder. Overall, it is estimated that at least 42,000 prisoners died at the camp. But since the SS destroyed most of the records, in reality we will never really know how many suffered there.

Neuengamme was just one of the many concentration camps liberated by allied troops throughout 1945. The stories uncovered by brave British, American and Soviet troops, and the testimonies given by those who suffered so terribly, ensured that Nazi war crimes did not go unpunished and guaranteed that they could be shared for all prosperity, if for no other reason than to ensure that such horror was called out so that it should never be countenanced to happen again. As early as 1940, in his “finest hour” speech, Churchill warned of

“a new dark age made more sinister … by the lights of a perverted science”.—[Official Report, Commons, 18/6/1940; col. 60.]

He saw clearly the evil of Nazi rule and what it was, and nobly led our nation—along with our stout allies—throughout the storm of war.

It was two days later, on 7 May 1945, that Germany finally capitulated. The Soviet army had already taken Berlin and Field-Marshal Bernard Montgomery had accepted the surrender of German forces in north-west Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands. Facing mounting pressure on all fronts, General Jodl arrived in Reims at the behest of Admiral Dönitz to offer the unconditional surrender of all German forces. The final instrument of surrender was then signed in Berlin the following day, with Air Marshal Arthur Tedder, later a member of your Lordships’ House, signing on behalf of the allies. The war in Europe had come to an end.

Across Britain, church bells rang out in recognition of the enormity of the occasion. Victory in Europe was declared. The British public jubilantly poured on to the streets, as the Minister mentioned, to celebrate their victory over Hitler’s forces of fascism. The victory was momentous, but the cost had been terrible and enormous. Some 383,600 British troops were estimated to have lost their lives. There had been 1.7 million casualties from across the Commonwealth. For many, those bells must have rung hollow.

On this very day 80 years ago, as has just been mentioned, Nazi forces were expelled from the only occupied territory in the British Isles. Throughout the war, the occupied Channel Islands had faced severe repression, with satellite camps of Neuengamme established on Alderney. The liberation of our dear Channel Islands was completed when British soldiers from HMS “Bulldog” and HMS “Beagle” landed on Guernsey and Jersey. Across the islands, the union flag was hoisted and the crowds spontaneously sang the national anthem. Liberation Day is still to this day celebrated in joyous fashion every year on 9 May on those islands.

From the balcony of the Ministry of Health, 80 years ago, Churchill reminded the nation:

“This is not victory of a party or of any class. It’s a victory of the great British nation as a whole. We were the first, in this ancient island, to draw the sword against tyranny”.


Those words are ever more pertinent today. War has returned to Europe. An ascendant autocracy threatens sovereign nations, and poisonous ideologies pervade our politics. If there were ever a lesson to be learned, it is that we British can never appease a tyrant. Our Ukrainian brothers and sisters are valiantly resisting invasion—fighting, as we once did, for their homeland and their freedom—and we are there to support their struggle in the shadow of remembrance of 80 years ago.

In these troubling times, we must once again stand firm against tyranny and express great pride in our Armed Forces. The Minister spoke so eloquently about our history and the importance of communal remembrance and reflection. This day, of all days, is also one of celebration of affirmative triumph over almost unspeakable evil. As His Majesty said last night, we must never forget those who delivered that triumph. My Lords, we will not.

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Wednesday 30th April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, I oppose Amendments 1 and 6. While I have enormous sympathy with their intent, when I heard the noble Baroness say that this would expand the role of the commissioner a little bit, I am afraid I thought it would do anything but. If we consider that there are some 160,000 to 170,000 members of the Armed Forces, including reserves, who would be able to have access to the commissioner because they are subject to service law, and that there are over 100,000 applications—the word used by the noble Baroness—to join the British Army alone, never mind the two other services, we would in effect be doubling the aperture for those who could potentially submit a complaint to the commissioner. The commissioner’s office is already under enormous strain. It is a tiny office because much of the service complaints system is done through the single services. The Bill already suggests that the budget for the commissioner is going to have to double. I simply do not understand how the commissioner could cope, but I am sympathetic to what the noble Baroness is trying to achieve.

Equally, Amendment 6 is slightly confused, because in Committee we established that attestation is the point at which someone joins the Armed Forces, and that is when they become subject to service law. Yet, where the noble Baroness seeks to extend it to those engaged in training as well, those people by definition have been attested and, if they are conducting military training, have already joined the military and so will be subject to service law.

While I am on my feet, I want to address a general point with the Minister in my capacity—and I declare my interest—as director of Army Reserve, on the test for whether someone is subject to service law. As a humble reservist, I am subject to service law, but only when I am claiming a reserve service day or wearing a uniform. For much of my time, like other reservists, I am not subject to service law. The problem is that, just because I and my fellow reservists are not subject to service law, that does not mean that the military is not doing things in my name which may warrant a service complaint. For example, I could be subject to a promotions board which I wish to contest; or I could be on a leave of absence, which then could be misinterpreted as a long-term absence and I could be dismissed from the Army Reserve. Indeed, I could be posted while I am on a leave of absence but not technically subject to service law at that point. If we look at this from a purely technical point of view and if we look at the Bill precisely, for all those actions happening while I am not subject to service law, I would not be able to submit a service complaint. I am not suggesting that it needs an amendment, but it would be useful if the Minister could reassure your Lordships’ House that the intent is that, when it comes to the reserves, they will be able to submit a complaint to the commissioner whether or not they are technically subject to service law at that moment.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I begin by reaffirming our support for the Bill and the creation of the Armed Forces commissioner. There are noble aims contained within its pages, and we will always welcome efforts to improve the lives of our service personnel.

When they introduced this Bill, the Government were clear that they intended the Bill to focus on serving members of the Armed Forces. The amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, would give access to the commissioner to a recruit from the moment they attended an assessment centre until the moment they were attested, after which they become subject to service law and will have access to the commissioner anyway.

I am highly sympathetic to the intent behind these amendments. The noble Baroness makes an excellent point: there are ongoing concerns about the recruitment process generally, and there are well-known welfare issues facing recruits. In fact, I believe that the Chief of the Defence Staff, Sir Tony Radakin, said on Monday that the Armed Forces are shrinking by around 300 personnel per month and that it would take up to three years to reverse that decline, especially given the Government’s proposed coalition of the willing and the recent reports that European nations would struggle to put 25,000 troops on the ground to protect Ukraine should that become necessary at some point. Against that backdrop, it seems right that action is taken to improve the recruitment process. I am pleased that the Secretary of State has acknowledged that this must be a priority. Given the challenges the Ministry of Defence is facing, will the Minister comment on further action that the Government are taking to drive improvements in recruitment?

Finally, I wish to make a brief point about the potential expansion of those who will have access to the commissioner. As I said, and as we said in Committee, we have sympathy with proposals to include recruits and veterans, but we also accept that the commissioner must not be overburdened by having to deal with an ever-growing number of people, which may limit the effectiveness of the commissioner—which would be regrettable. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

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[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for setting out the case for the Government’s amendments. We on these Benches are pleased that they have accepted the recommendation of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee that regulations to define the term “relevant family member” should be subject to the affirmative procedure.

At Second Reading, the Minister said:

“it matters that this Bill represents the first time that the families of service personnel will have a mechanism by which they can raise issues about how their life as a relative of a member of the Armed Forces impacts their welfare”.—[Official Report, 3/3/25; col. 302.]

This demonstrates that the Government clearly envisage a significant role for the family members of service personnel. It therefore always seemed slightly bizarre that not only were family members not defined in the Bill but the regulations that determined who will be included would not permit parliamentary scrutiny. The Government have now rectified that issue with these amendments and have published the draft regulations. Having looked over those, I do not have any objection to the proposed definition of “relevant family member”, and it appears to do a thorough job in capturing the complexities and, at times, vagaries of relationships in service life.

Amendment 12 from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, inserts the content of those draft regulations into the Bill itself, so that the primary legislation contains a definition of “relevant family member”. It is a good principle that, wherever possible, as much detail should lie in primary legislation rather than be left to delegated powers. Having listened to the Minister, and given the deployment of the affirmative procedure for the delegated powers, I am on this occasion satisfied with the Government’s response.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thank the noble Earl, Lord Minto, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, for their support. I do not want to restart the debate about defining a relevant family member, because that would be an interesting but long and complicated debate.

I start with a couple of points, hoping not to generate the debate that I just said I hope we do not have. Are engaged couples included? My noble friend Lord Stansgate declared his interest with respect to that. He asked the same question in Committee; I am glad that it is still the same question now, just a few weeks later, on Report. The answer to my noble friend is, yes, that is our intention. We look forward to debating further the other points that noble Lords have raised when we come to the secondary legislation.

I will speak in general terms on the point the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised—again, this debate will take place when the secondary legislation comes forward —concerning why we do not simply use the covenant definition. It states:

“section 343B(4) Armed Forces Act 2006 … provides … the definition of ‘relevant family member’ … for the Armed Forces Covenant. The principles under the Covenant and the remit of the Commissioner will operate in a similar policy space (the welfare/ effect of service on service persons and their families)”.

However, they are separate policy backed by different legislation for different purposes. For example, the commissioner’s scope is solely for current service personnel and their families, while the covenant’s remit, as the noble Baroness knows, will also include veterans and their families. In a sense, we are trying to ensure that the definitions we use are fit for the different policy objectives they have.

With those few remarks, I thank noble Lords for their scrutiny of the amendments we have put forward and I restate the importance we placed on fulfilling the recommendation of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee that the delegated power for the regulation be made affirmative. That is an important change we have made and offers both Houses of Parliament, including your Lordships’, an effective and important opportunity to debate the contents of the “relevant family member” definition without compromising our ability to reflect changes in society in the future. With that, I hope that noble Lords will support the Government’s amendments.

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[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I am aware that debate is taking a little longer and that we have more groups of amendments that are single amendments than many people had hoped. I therefore propose to be incredibly brief. This amendment raises the issue of the Armed Forces covenant and to what extent the Armed Forces commissioner would be subject to that covenant.

It might sound axiomatic—to use the phrase that the noble Earl, Lord Minto, used in Committee— that the Government are bound by the Armed Forces covenant but, technically, the Government are not bound by it. The covenant relates to businesses and the providers of housing and of the health service, but it does not apply to the Government per se. This amendment seeks to ask to what extent the Armed Forces commissioner will be required to look at the Armed Forces covenant. It may be that the Minister says that that is left entirely to legislation on the Armed Forces covenant, but I think it would be helpful to understand whether the commissioner would or could be bound by the legislation.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, we visited the issue of the Armed Forces covenant during our deliberations in Committee. During that debate, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, raised the importance of the covenant and how vital it is that the commissioner be fully able to investigate covenant issues relating to the welfare of service personnel and their families. I was grateful, as I think were all noble Lords present, for the Minister’s response. It was welcome to receive clarification that the commissioner will be able to investigate such matters.

As I noted in Committee, the duty to have regard to the principles of the covenant was established in statute by the Armed Forces Act 2021. That was a significant step forward and we have seen much progress since then. I also note the Government’s intention to embed the covenant fully into law, which is indeed a welcome step. Again, I think it is already a given that the commissioner should have due regard to the covenant, and the comments from the Minister have given me the certainty that they will indeed do so.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for moving her amendment and the noble Earl, Lord Minto, for the comments that he has made. I also thank the noble Baroness for bringing the important topic of the Armed Forces covenant to our attention and for the valuable engagement that we have had ahead of this debate.

As we discussed in Committee, and as the noble Earl, Lord Minto, pointed out, this amendment would place a requirement on the commissioner to have due regard to the Armed Forces covenant principles as part of their general functions. It would also require them to monitor and report on compliance with the covenant in all areas of their responsibilities. I will say again for the record that this Government are fully supportive of the Armed Forces covenant. The covenant recognises the unique obligations and sacrifices made by those who serve in the Armed Forces, whether regular or reserve; those who have served in the past; and their families, including the bereaved. Our election manifesto included a commitment to place it fully into law, which the noble Earl, Lord Minto, referenced, and which we will do.

However, as noble Lords are aware, and I will stress again, the covenant applies to both serving and former members of the Armed Forces. The Government believe that there is a separate and pressing need to address the welfare matters affecting our serving community, and that is where the Armed Forces commissioner will have the powers to make a real impact. As I have stated before, it will of course be perfectly proper that the commissioner considers covenant issues where they relate to serving members of the Armed Forces and their families—I would imagine that these issues will be within the remit of the commissioner to investigate.

With that, I hope that I have been able to reassure the noble Baroness and others that, as the commissioner will be fully able to investigate covenant issues where they apply to the welfare of serving personnel and their families, it is neither necessary nor appropriate to specify this in the Bill. I therefore hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.

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[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lady Baroness, Lady Bennett, for bringing this amendment. As she pointed out, we had an amendment in Committee that listed a whole set of different groups to which we suggested the Armed Forces commissioner should pay particular attention. It was not intended to be something that would ever be brought to a vote. In the light of the Atherton report and the Etherton report, it is important for the commissioner to think about groups that have faced particular problems within His Majesty’s Armed Forces, so exploring who the commissioner should take into consideration and where there might be a need for particular inquiries or reports seemed to be worth discussing.

Although I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Beamish, that recruiting under-18s is something that we accept, it is important to bear in mind that people aged under 18 are still technically children. It is important that the commissioner, in looking at their welfare, looks to other bodies that deal with that. In this regard, mentioning family members is also important, because if we are talking about recruitment, as the noble Lord has just done, it is not simply whether a 16 or 17 year-old wants to sign up but whether their parents feel comfortable in that as well. This is an important issue for us to discuss, but obviously not to push to a vote on this occasion.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, raises an important point. The welfare of service personnel who are aged under 18 is a matter that all noble Lords wish to guarantee. I personally have fond memories of training junior leaders. They were, despite their age, some of the keenest, most determined and, at times, most fearless individuals, certainly in relation to trying out new skills, that I had the honour of serving with.

I think it right, therefore, that the Government give serious consideration to the treatment of young people recruited into the Armed Forces. They are part of the future of our Armed Forces, and it is in all our interests to provide an environment that allows them both to thrive and to flourish. When we face recruitment and retention issues, as has been discussed already, we cannot have a situation in which young people are deterred from joining up or encouraged to leave prematurely. I would be grateful if the Minister would update the House on efforts His Majesty’s Government are taking to deal with the concerns of young people serving in our Armed Forces.

The amendment from the noble Baroness also mentions the children of service personnel. They are impacted in a unique way by their parents’ service, and this can easily get forgotten or overlooked. They often have to move home when the military requires their family to relocate, which can be to different and disparate parts of the country, or indeed overseas. Moving so frequently is by no means an easy thing to ask of anyone, let alone a child. Leaving friends behind, losing a sense of normality and becoming accustomed to an entirely new way of living would be challenging for even the most adventurous of us. I mentioned in Committee that 62% of those who left the Armed Forces reported family concerns as one of their core reasons for leaving. We must address this issue head-on if we are to deal with the crisis of retention.

In direct response to the amendment from the noble Baroness, which mentions the Children’s Commissioner, I say that there must be clear delineation of responsibility for the welfare of service personnel. The Armed Forces commissioner must be responsible for investigations regarding general service welfare matters from service personnel, regardless of age. The Children’s Commissioner and the Armed Forces commissioner are two very distinct roles, and for good reasons. To conflate the two could risk confusion over responsibility. If a person under 18 has an issue regarding their welfare, as part of their military service, they should go to the Armed Forces commissioner only.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank everyone for the discussion on this important matter. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for her views on the Bill and I acknowledge her concerns about the protection of young soldiers, which is something we all wish to see, as the noble Lord, Lord Beamish, the noble Earl, Lord Minto, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, pointed out.

We anticipate that the commissioner will wish to work closely with several organisations, committees and groups. As the commissioner will be an independent body, it will ultimately be up to them to decide how they choose to exercise their powers, and it will be for both parties to decide how best to work together effectively. It is likely, however, that the commissioner will implement a series of formal and informal working arrangements with various groups, organisations and committees, including the Children’s Commissioners from each nation in the UK. In answer to the noble Earl, Lord Minto, the two roles are distinct but—while respecting the difference between them—it is important that the Children’s Commissioner works, where appropriate, with the Armed Forces commissioner.

I reassure noble Lords that my officials, who are focused on the successful implementation of the commissioner, have already visited AFC Harrogate to understand the unique needs of our young soldiers, and are engaging with other interested groups who are both internal and external to the MoD. I reiterate that the Government are very supportive of the recruitment of young people under 18, while also recognising that it brings with it particular responsibilities which we wish to ensure are properly considered.

I hope this provides the necessary reassurance to the noble Baroness and, with that, I ask her to withdraw her amendment.

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[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Beamish, seek to do what amendments that I tabled in Committee also sought to do, albeit rather less elegantly. My amendment on having parliamentary scrutiny for the Armed Forces commissioner was the source of considerable concern to the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, who said that it was far too detailed to put in the Bill. Therefore, I am extremely glad that the noble Lord, Lord Beamish, has decided to bring back this amendment, because it is important that we have a parliamentary role, and he has phrased that elegantly both in the formulation of his amendment and in what he has just said.

If we want to have an independent Armed Forces commissioner appointed by the Secretary of State, it would be appropriate that the way of appointing that person stands up to scrutiny—and both Houses of Parliament playing a role would be an effective way of doing that. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say about that and what role His Majesty’s Government feel able to grant to Parliament in this regard.

On Amendment 14, the change of those minor words—from “may” to “must”—suggests something rather important. As with so much legislation, if you have not read the Bill, the change from “may” to “must” makes very little sense. But this is about adequate resourcing of the Armed Forces commissioner. It was pointed out earlier in today’s debate that we are already looking at considerably increasing the funding for the Armed Forces commissioner, compared with the current ombudsperson. If work needs to be done, it is vital that the role of the Armed Forces commissioner be adequately resourced, because if not, and the Armed Forces commissioner is unable fully to fulfil the job given to them, what message does that send to the Armed Forces and their families? If cases are brought and the Armed Forces commissioner does not have time to deal with the complaints or to undertake the reports needed, that will undermine the commissioner’s prestige and credibility.

If “may” cannot be converted to “must”, can the Minister explain to the House how funding will be provided and give us some guarantees that, in the longer term, the Armed Forces commissioner will be adequately resourced? As his noble friend Lord Beamish said, we might be happy that this Government will give adequate resources, but we are legislating not just for this Government but for future ones as well.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Beamish, for his Amendment 13, which addresses the highly significant matter of the appointment process and the independence of the commissioner.

My noble friend Lord Courtown, in winding for the Official Opposition at Second Reading, raised the differences between the proposed commissioner and the German armed forces commissioner, as we have heard today. One of the main differences is the method of appointment, as the noble Lord, Lord Beamish, rightly raised. The German commissioner is elected by the Bundestag, with nominations coming from the different party groups. That role establishes a significant role for the German Parliament in the appointment process.

The commissioner here shall be appointed by the Secretary of State and not elected by Parliament. The Government have indicated that their successful candidate will appear, I believe, before the Defence Select Committee in the other place. I have two questions. First, how will the Government ensure that the person they appoint remains entirely independent? Secondly, would the Minister be amenable to the commissioner also undergoing pre-appointment scrutiny before the International Relations and Defence Committee of this House too?

On Amendment 14, I look forward to hearing the Minister’s views on financing what we all agree is a most positive initiative.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in this important debate, including my noble friend Lord Stansgate, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble Earl, Lord Minto. Their questions will be answered as I go through my remarks. I also thank my noble friend Lord Beamish for his views on the Bill and his engagement on the subject to date. As he knows from the discussions he has had with me and the Minister for the Armed Forces, I understand and fully appreciate his concerns and views about the scrutiny of the commissioner’s appointment and the importance of properly funding the commissioner.

We are confident there will be the right balance of independent scrutiny in place, in line with other, similar public appointments. Parliament will have a clear and important role in the process. The public appointments process and the rigorous pre-appointment scrutiny will be the mechanism to address any concerns that the House of Commons Defence Select Committee may have about a candidate. We will be able fully to take account of the Select Committee’s views before making the recommendation to His Majesty.

Furthermore, as was clarified in Committee, the House of Commons Defence Committee will be involved in the recruitment process and will consider the candidate before their appointment. The Secretary of State will then carefully consider the view of the chair of the Defence Select Committee. I can confirm that we have also discussed this issue with the chair of the House of Commons Defence Committee, Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi, and the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, the chair of the International Relations and Defence Committee, and make it clear—in answer to the points made by the noble Earl, Lord Minto, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and my noble friend Lord Beamish in his amendment—that, should the IRDC wish to provide a view on the appointment to the HCDC, it would be very welcome to do so.

As with the House of Commons Defence Committee’s opinion, any views provided by the International Relations and Defence Committee will be a matter for consideration by the Secretary of State. However, I hope that the confirmation that the mechanism exists to feed in views from this place, should Parliament wish to do so, will alleviate the concerns expressed by my noble friend Lord Beamish. His amendment has caused us to further consider how the IRDC may be involved. Because the Executive cannot dictate to Parliament, I emphasise that it is if that Select Committee wishes and chooses to do so.

On Amendment 14, I fully agree that it is crucial that the commissioner has the tools, including the financial assistance, they need. The Bill has been designed to ensure that this is the case. I again thank my noble friend Lord Beamish for taking the time to meet with me and the Minister for the Armed Forces to discuss this matter. I can reassure my noble friend Lord Beamish and others that this Government—I would like to clearly state and put this on the record—will commit to providing sufficient funding to the office of the commissioner.

Noble Lords have asked about a future Government; it is difficult to commit future Governments to particular policies, but I would assume and expect that, even if the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, was the Secretary of State for Defence, or the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, was back in office, all of us, including myself, would ensure that the commissioner’s office was properly funded. I believe that would be the case. The amendment from my noble friend Lord Beamish is particularly important because it forces us to put on record that the funding of the commissioner’s office is crucial and fundamental to the successful delivery of this important reform.

If the commissioner feels that their funding is insufficient to carry out their functions effectively, the Bill has been designed to ensure that they will have the opportunity to raise this in their annual reports. The Secretary of State in the other place and the Minister for Defence here—whoever that is—would find it more than a little uncomfortable to have to defend themselves against the charge that an Armed Forces commissioner, regarded as a crucial reform, believes that they have been insufficiently funded to undertake the requirements legally expected of them.

With that, I thank my noble friend Lord Beamish for Amendments 13 and 14. I hope that I have been able to provide him and other noble Lords with the necessary reassurance. On those grounds, I ask him to withdraw his amendment.

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 24th March 2025 Grand Committee

Moved by

[The Earl of Minto]

17: Clause 4, page 5, line 22, at end insert—
“(aa) the report must include the Commissioner’s view on whether the relevant general service welfare issue has had, or may have, an effect on the recruitment and retention of armed forces personnel,”

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 17 is in the name of my noble friend Lady Goldie, and I have signed it. I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich for his support for it.

Amendment 17 would require the commissioner to include their view of the impact of general service welfare issues on recruitment and retention in any report published under new Section 340LA: “general service welfare investigations”. This amendment delivers a vital expansion of the requirements set out in the Bill as drafted. Currently, the Bill requires reports published under new Section 340LA only to list the individual findings of an investigation and the reasons for the commissioner’s findings.

Recruitment and retention are one of the most significant, if not the greatest, challenges that our Armed Forces face today. Frequent reports of poor-quality accommodation and shocking welfare issues are having an impact on service personnel well-being, and welfare issues are often cited by those personnel leaving our Armed Forces as a reason for their decision to leave, as I know only too well. The damaging publicity that these welfare issues cause is surely also having a detrimental effect on the number of people who are coming forward to start a career in our Armed Forces. The latest figures show that 12,850 people joined the Regular Forces last calendar year and that 14,830 people left, meaning a net decrease in the size of the Regular Forces of 1,980.

If the new Armed Forces commissioner is to be effective in resolving welfare issues—and, in so doing, contributing to the strength of our Armed Forces—they must put recruitment and retention both front and centre. Given that new Section 340LA grants the commissioner the discretion to produce the report or not, we feel that this additional duty to address recruitment and retention in those reports is not an overburdensome requirement. Ensuring recruitment and retention are addressed is of sufficient importance to warrant inclusion in these reports. I beg to move.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, I agree with much of what the noble Earl said, but this seems a rather strange amendment. In my view, it is axiomatic that the work of the Armed Forces commissioner, and the issues that he or she addresses, may have an effect on recruitment and retention in every instance—so that goes without saying—but I am not at all clear how the Armed Forces commissioner will determine whether they have an actual effect. It does not seem to be something that the Armed Forces commissioner can practically fulfil in the sense of the noble Earl’s amendment. I entirely endorse the sentiment behind it, but I simply do not see that it adds anything to the Bill.

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[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who spoke on this group, in particular the Minister. I thought that what he said was really clear and comforting.

I quite take the point made by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, about it being axiomatic that recruitment and retention are part of the purpose here, but they are important enough to get proper focus. On Amendment 17, therefore, we hope that the Minister has listened to our argument for recruitment and retention to be addressed directly here. It is of course our duty to seek the resolution of welfare issues faced by our service personnel for its own sake, but we should also be acutely aware of the impact that service conditions have on all of our hard-working Armed Forces.

I turn to Amendment 18 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham. We absolutely support the spirit of this amendment, as well as the need for proper transparency and oversight of the commissioner.

As I say, it was very comforting to hear the comprehensive assurances from the Minister, in which case I beg leave to withdraw this amendment.

Amendment 17 withdrawn.

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Tabled by

[Baroness Goldie]

19: After Clause 4, insert the following new Clause—
“Report: Commissioner’s interaction with the Service Police Complaints Commissioner(1) Within six months of the day on which this Act is passed, the Secretary of State must publish a report on the interaction between the roles of the Armed Forces Commissioner and the Service Police Complaints Commissioner.(2) The report under subsection (1) must be laid before Parliament.”

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, this amendment would require the commissioner to report on their interaction with the Service Police Complaints Commissioner.

It appears to me that there may be some degree of overlap between the roles of the Armed Forces commissioner and the Service Police Complaints Commissioner. Given the important role that the Service Police Complaints Commissioner plays in making recommendations on service police issues faced by persons subject to service law, it is important to understand how the two commissioners will work together and share appropriate information. It will clearly be unacceptable for one commissioner to tackle an issue relating to service police issues that touch on the welfare of service personnel without the understanding of—and those findings being shared with—the other commissioner.

Commissioners have previously been shown to be effective in a number of other sectors, but it is crucial that commissioners with complementary areas of work are not siloed from each other so that lessons can be learned as quickly as possible across the whole sector, to the benefit of all those who are subject to service law. Clearly, there will be some work that cannot be shared immediately due to its sensitive nature—I completely understand that—but it is crucial that what can be shared is shared, which is why we are proposing this new duty. I beg to move.

[Lord Browne of Belmont (DUP)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 20 in the name of my noble friend Lord Hay of Ballyore, which I have signed. My noble friend apologises for his absence, as he is attending his son’s wedding this week.

This is an important Bill, and one that I broadly support, as it will give greater support to serving personnel and their families. However, I believe that it is only right and proper that veterans who have devoted their lives bravely to supporting their country should be afforded the same protection as serving personnel and their families.

It seems strange to me that, while the independent Armed Forces commissioner will have statutory powers throughout the United Kingdom, the veterans’ commissioners for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have no such statutory powers. They are employed on only a part-time basis, with limited staff. Having said that, I have to say that all the veterans’ commissioners, within their remit, deliver an excellent service to veterans.

The proposed new clause is about how we engage in a meaningful way in our veterans’ needs and develop a close relationship between the veterans’ commissioners and the Armed Forces commissioner, as many of the issues they face may be of a similar nature and cross-cutting. Today, our Armed Forces veterans continue to need support for housing, employment and vital public services such as improved healthcare. Amendment 20 would have the effect of making provisions for the commissioner to hold regular meetings with the veterans’ commissioners across the country, where they could discuss specific matters pertaining to their area of the United Kingdom. This would allow the commissioner to be well briefed on the needs of each region.

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own devolved Administrations, so the Armed Forces covenant, for example, may be administered in slightly different ways. It is important that the Armed Forces commissioner is aware of these difficulties. In Northern Ireland, the implementation of the covenant is solely the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Executive and their agencies.

Unlike in Scotland and Wales, local councils in Northern Ireland have no role in the provision of housing, health, adult social care or children’s services, which fall to the various agencies. In many parts of England, Scotland and Wales, members of the Armed Forces who have urgent housing needs are given high priority and are not required to show a local connection to be offered suitable accommodation. However, in Northern Ireland, social housing is provided solely on a points basis, regulated by the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, which is prevented by legislation from giving priority to Armed Forces personnel. The lack of a local connection will result in fewer points being awarded to them and, as a result, the applicant will not reach the required quota for the allocation of social housing.

This is only one illustration of the differences that exist between regions. The Armed Forces commissioner would benefit greatly by having meetings with the three veterans’ commissioners, at least once a year, to be made fully aware of the diversity between the nations. It is also essential that the Armed Forces commissioner is in close contact with the assemblies and their connected agencies. It is therefore important that there is co-ordination throughout the United Kingdom and that the commissioner is made fully aware of the problems that are specific to the veterans of the different areas.

Unfortunately, in the Bill as it stands, the Armed Forces commissioner has no remit to represent veterans. The proposed new clause in Amendment 20 would permit engagement between the Armed Forces commissioner and the veterans’ commissioners and would go some way to delivering an effective service for our serving personnel and their families. The primary aim of the amendment is to co-ordinate to address the needs of serving personnel and veterans right across the United Kingdom and it would go some way to improving the service afforded to both.

Finally, can the Minister say whether the veterans’ commissioners have been consulted on this Bill? If so, have they expressed any opinion about holding meetings with the Armed Forces commissioner? Do the three veterans’ commissioners hold joint meetings between themselves to understand the difficulties that they may have? Can the Minister assure me that the Veterans Minister will have a major role in co-ordinating all this?

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I hope this provides the necessary reassurance to noble Lords that, while the Bill will not specify details of engagement requirements, no doubt the new Armed Forces commissioner will wish to consider the important points that noble Lords made when they undertake their duties. On those grounds, I ask the noble Earl to withdraw his amendment.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I again thank noble Lords, particularly the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Browne, who made some extremely valid points. I am going to be pretty brief, because the clarification, definition and scope of both the independent commissioners were extremely clear and simple. The point about veterans was very well made; they are, of course, considered extremely highly within the Armed Forces community, so it is very important that they get the amount of attention that they do.

Having said that, on issues about the Government’s plans for the implementation of the Bill, it must be a laudable aim to get as much clarity as we possibly can into this. However, having heard what the Minister said and his carefully considered views on the importance of clarity within this, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 19 withdrawn.

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[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I support these amendments from these Benches. I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, felt inspired to stand up and speak on the first day in Committee and that he has now brought forward these two amendments.

On reading the Bill, my assumption was that it included regulars and reservists, but the very fact that these questions are being asked means that it would be very helpful if the Minister could clarify the intention of His Majesty’s Government and, perhaps, think about some minor amendments to the wording of the Bill for clarity.

Some of the amendments we brought forward last week, for example about funding, might look rather different depending on whether we are looking at a commissioner whose remit is, in essence, to deal with regulars or one who deals with reservists, because the sheer numbers are different and some of the concerns might be different. If we are looking at funding the commissioner, and his or her sub-commissioners or deputy commissioners as outlined in the Bill, it would be very useful to be absolutely clear that we are covering reservists as well as regulars, which I assume is the Government’s intention but which is not entirely clear.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, mentioned cadets, which also came up in discussions last week. I assume they do not fall within the Bill’s remit because they are not subject to service law, but are there ways in which they, too, would be in scope?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I too thank my noble friend Lord Harlech for tabling Amendments 21A and 21B, which seek to ensure that the commissioner prioritises the interests of the reserves appropriately. My noble friend has brought some excellent expertise to this issue as a serving reserve officer himself. The importance of the reserves within the overall Armed Forces is undeniable; their critical role is both admired and valued by all.

As the Minister will no doubt tell us, reserves will have recourse to the commissioner because they are subject to service law when in training and on active duty. That said, my noble friend is seeking to make a broader point that the commissioner should consider the interests and experiences of the reserves equally to those of regular personnel. We support him in his desire to ensure that our reserve units are prioritised appropriately.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, once again I thank the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, for tabling these amendments, which allow us to discuss the issue of reserves. In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, yes, reserves are covered and are within scope of the Bill when they are subject to service law. I have made that point on a number of occasions, but I say it again so that we are absolutely clear of the fact and have no misunderstanding.

I need to declare an interest as, like the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, my son-in-law is an active reservist. I have to be careful about that because, as noble Lords can imagine, he is not without an opinion about certain things—nor indeed is the rest of the family—so I put that on the record. He was active in Iraq. My noble friend pointed out the service of reservists in these campaigns, and my son-in-law was one of them. We all know people who are, were or will be reserves.

The Bill does not cover cadets, as the noble Baroness pointed out, although they are of course a major policy issue, as well as a major source of pride for us all. We hope that they both develop and expand. I will respond to a few of the points made before I make my formal reply.

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 19th March 2025 Grand Committee

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

In my case, it is the first time I have ever been at a Committee on a Bill on the Armed Forces. When I walked in the door and was handed the latest regulations and so on, for which we are all very grateful, I must admit that when I looked at some of the amendments, I wondered where the disagreements are going to lie. As someone who comes fresh to this, I should have to say briefly—I am going to be briefer than the noble Baroness—that I thought, “This seems like a reasonable amendment. What’s wrong with it?” So when my noble friend the Minister replies, I should be grateful to have explained what may be the objections to this amendment, because if there is something I do not understand about the relationship between the Armed Forces commissioner and the covenant, I should very much like to know.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords as always, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, and I thank her for opening the Committee’s considerations of this Bill on a matter as important as the Armed Forces covenant. She has done a commendable job of reminding noble Lords of the three principles of the covenant; so I will not repeat them. However, I should like briefly to comment on some of the great work that has happened as a result of the covenant.

The Armed Forces Act 2021, which was taken through the House by my noble friend Lady Goldie—who sends her apologies for not being present in this Committee today; she is otherwise detained in the Chamber—imposed new duties on public bodies to have due regard to the Armed Forces covenant. This means that housing organisations, health services, educational establishments and local authorities must all take action to ensure that service personnel are not disadvantaged. This has led to considerable improvements in service welfare.

For example, the Armed Forces community in west Norfolk raised concerns that there was insufficient dental service provision near the local base at RAF Marham. The views of families, supported by research from Healthwatch Norfolk into local health provision and user needs, were fed into the Norfolk health overview and scrutiny committee, ensuring the commissioning process reflected local and regional needs. This was all led and negotiated by the Norfolk Armed Forces covenant board, with partner organisations then collaborating to find a solution to meet those needs. NHS England worked closely with RAF Marham and the Defence Infrastructure Organisation to address the gap by opening the first NHS dental practice based on an MoD site. This is a direct positive consequence of the Armed Forces covenant.

The previous Government took significant steps, as I have mentioned, to incorporate the covenant into law. Given that it is somewhat axiomatic that the commissioner will already have due regard to the principles of the covenant, I should say, therefore, that the amendment does not seem quite necessary. I am glad, however, that the noble Baroness has moved it to highlight the positive impact of the covenant.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Coaker) (Lab)]

Perhaps I may start by welcoming everybody to the Committee, and I look forward to the consideration of the Bill. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, for the way in which she introduced the amendment, and in particular the points she made about the general approval that everyone has with respect to the main thrust of the Bill. But of course, that does not negate the opportunity and chance for us to discuss how we may test what the Government are thinking and, where appropriate, suggest improvements.

I shall reflect widely on the various points that are made and my intention is that, between Committee and Report, we will have meetings between ourselves so that we can discuss how we might take all this forward. I say that as a general view as to what my intention is in order to make progress on the Bill, so that everyone will feel as though the contributions they have made have helped. I cannot promise the answers will necessarily be those that everybody would want, but certainly it is my intention, following Committee, to work with people to look at the various discussions that have taken place.

I apologise for the fact that the draft regulations dealing with the definition of what we mean with respect to a family have been made available online only an hour or two ago. Certainly, we gave them out as people came into the Room. There is, I am afraid, nothing I can add other than to say it was an administrative oversight, and I apologise profusely to everyone for that. I also know how irritating it is, having sat where the noble Earl, Lord Minto, is, to have to wait for regulations that do not appear. I can only apologise to the Committee for that.

It may have been the first time that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, introduced an amendment, but nobody would have known. It is a very important amendment. I thank noble Lords and Baronesses here today for turning their expertise to the scrutiny of the Bill and for offering their board support to its principle and purpose. The ongoing welfare of our serving personnel and their families must remain a priority for this Government and the commissioner. The amendments we are considering today will do much to keep their welfare at the forefront of our minds in both Houses of Parliament.

I declare an interest, as my son-in-law is an active member of the Reserve Forces.

Amendment 1 is on the important issue of the Armed Forces covenant. As the noble Baroness said, its effect would be to place a requirement on the commissioner to have due regard to the Armed Forces covenant principles as part of their general functions. It would also require them to monitor and report on compliance with the covenant in all areas of their responsibilities. As I am sure noble Lords know—and as the noble Earl, Lord Minto, pointed out—the Armed Forces covenant recognises the unique obligations and sacrifices made by those who serve in the Armed Forces, whether regular or reserve, and those who have served in the past and their families, including the bereaved. This Government, as the last Government were, are fully supportive of the Armed Forces covenant. Indeed, our manifesto included a commitment to place the covenant fully into law with an ambition to include that in the next Armed Forces Act.

An important aspect of the covenant is that it applies to the entirety of the Armed Forces community, which encompasses both serving and former members of the Armed Forces. As the noble Baroness knows, the Armed Forces commissioner is very focused on the serving community and their families. It will, of course, be perfectly proper for the commissioner to consider covenant issues where they relate to serving members of the Armed Forces and their families, and I would imagine that those issues will be very much at the heart of the “general service welfare” matters that are within the remit of the commissioner to investigate. However, I strongly believe that there is a separate and pressing need to address the issues of our serving community, and it is in that role where the Armed Forces commissioner will have the powers to make the real impact that we all want.

I hope that I have been able to reassure the noble Baroness that the commissioner will be fully able to investigate covenant issues where they apply to the welfare of serving personnel and their families. Therefore, it is not necessary to specify this in the Bill, but I do not, in any way, decry the importance of the Armed Forces covenant, which every member of this Committee supports. We aim to extend and develop that in the Armed Forces Act that is coming in the not-too-distant future. With that, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment, but I thank her for the thrust of the point that it made.

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[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

I sense that we are in danger of confusing the recruitment process and recruits. The recruitment process is the process through which you apply to join the Armed Forces. That ends at the point of attestation, when you join the Armed Forces. You then become a recruit in training. It is unfortunate that the two words are similar; we run the risk of not understanding that the point at which service law applies is attestation.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, although I appreciate the intent of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, we believe that this Bill should retain clarity and focus.

It is important that the commissioner is responsible for those who are subject to service law. That is the language used in the Bill and the term defined by Section 367 of the Armed Forces Act 2006. As per that that section, those who are subject to service law include every member of the regular forces at all times; every member of the Reserve Forces while they are undertaking any training or duties relating to their reserve duties, are on permanent service on call-out, are in home defence service on call-out or are serving on the permanent staff of a reserve force.

As per chapter 18, Terms and Conditions of Enlistment and Service, recruits become subject to service law once they have sworn the oath of allegiance to His Majesty the King. I swore mine 53 years ago; that is a slightly awful thing to say. They would, therefore, already have access to the commissioner. The issue arises when we try to include all those going through the recruitment process, as we have just discussed. They are still civilians, and many may not complete the process of joining up. Therefore, they would not be likely to experience general service welfare issues in the same way that fully attested service personnel may do.

In Committee in the other place, the Minister for the Armed Forces pointed out that there can be up to 150,000 individuals going through the recruitment process at any one time. If the commissioner’s remit were to be expanded in this manner, their case load would, in essence, double. This seems like rather an onerous imposition that could hinder the commissioner’s ability to serve service personnel as the Government intend.

On Amendment 10—I very much thank the Minister for the draft regulations—the only thing I would like to say is that I believe that there is already a precedent definition in legislation. The Armed Forces (Covenant) Regulations 2022 define relevant family members for the purposes of Section 343B of the Armed Forces Act 2006. The Government already have a list that defines family members, and it is fairly comprehensive. This begs the question: what differences will there be between that definition and this new definition? Also, since we have just received this latest definition, I ask the Minister: could we perhaps consider it and revert at a later stage?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. Although I do not agree with her on Amendment 2, let me just say that I think the fact that she spoke to both that amendment and Amendment 10 has provoked a very interesting and important debate. I will deal with some of the issues that she raised when I make the formal government response to it.

First, I want to respond more widely and openly to the various questions that have been raised. I very much agree with the point made by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, and the noble Lord, Lord Lancaster. The Government are looking at ways to improve the recruitment process before the point of attestation through a review of recruitment and how it takes place, in order to try to improve the whole process, but that is separate to the whole point of the commissioner. None the less, the noble Baroness made an important point about how we could improve that experience for those who are applying to join our Armed Forces.

The noble Baroness spoke about kinship, and I will make some remarks about that in my formal remarks. Our belief is that the draft regulations she has received— I emphasise that they are a draft—are intended to be broadly drawn with respect to that. We have noted the comment the Delegated Legislation Committee made on how these draft regulations should be agreed using the affirmative process, rather than the negative process as is currently in the Bill. I say to the noble Earl, Lord Minto, and others, that we will come back and look at that on Report to reflect the views of the committee.

Our intention in the draft regulations is to ensure that anyone who is closely connected to a serviceperson and feels the impact of service life should be covered by the commissioner’s remit. We recognise that this could be a wide-ranging and diverse set of people. Before I forget, I will say to my noble friend Lord Stansgate that engaged people are covered by the commissioner.

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[Lord Wrottesley (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly in support of the amendments of and comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Beamish, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, and others. In doing so, I declare an interest in having previously served as a member of His Majesty’s Armed Forces.

Much has been made by His Majesty’s Government and other noble Lords of the attributes of the German model. A key feature of this model is its direct connection with and therefore accountability to Parliament. However, the Minister has previously stated that he feels that there is increased independence with the commissioner sitting outside Parliament—accountable to but independent of Parliament. There is a tension within these phrases that may be irreconcilable. We would all be keen to hear the Minister’s views on how to reconcile these tensions, which may even be contradictions.

I also support the comments made on term limits. We have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Beamish, about a limit of five years plus two for a total of seven years. In the corporate world, term limits often extend to two terms of four years, for a total of eight years, or three terms of three years, for a total of nine years. One of their key attributes is to allow for continuity and the retention of corporate memory, which still allows for a refresh and therefore introduces new experience into the mix within what is deemed an appropriate timeframe. I would like to hear from the Minister on why he feels seven years is an appropriate timeframe, as opposed to eight, nine or, as in this case, 10 years.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the very interesting amendments under consideration in this group all seek to push the Government on the terms of appointment of the commissioner. This is always one of the seminal issues when we debate the establishment of a new position in law. Amendment 3 appears—the noble Lord, Lord Beamish, can elaborate on this in his closing remarks—to interfere with the principle of exclusive cognisance. His amendment insinuates that Parliament must hold a confirmatory vote on the Secretary of State’s preferred candidate for commissioner. As other noble Lords have mentioned, it would be very interesting to hear what the Minister has to say in response.

Amendment 4, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, creates a mechanism for appointment similar, as has been mentioned, to the committee system in the United States. Their congressional committees are required to hold confirmatory hearings and votes, and they have the power to decline a president their appointments. I am not certain how such a system could be translated into our particular constitutional model, but I am again quite intrigued to find out.

Finally, on Amendment 5, I too think there is merit in this proposal, so I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Beamish. If the particular commissioner is successful and executes their duties effectively, why should they not be able to hold that appointment for two full terms of five years? You would get a proper continuation as a result of a slightly extended period. I do not quite understand the two-year extension; it seems neither one thing nor the other. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I again thank my noble friend Lord Beamish for bringing his experience and knowledge of many years. As he says, we have known each other for a long time, and I appreciate the contributions that he has made in the past and will make in the future—on not only Armed Forces and defence matters but many other things.

All the points made by my noble friends Lord Beamish and Lord Stansgate, the noble Lords, Lord Russell, Lord Lancaster and Lord Wrottesley, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, the noble Earl, Lord Minto, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, were really interesting. Before I come to my formal remarks, as I said at the outset, I can say that we will meet between Committee and Report to consider the involvement of Parliament. At the moment, the House of Commons Defence Select Committee is how we see the involvement of Parliament, and I can tell my noble friend—this answers other noble Lords’ questions—that we will discuss the length of time and whether the Government still consider that the most appropriate period.

I say that without any promise that we will therefore change or alter it. I have heard what noble Lords have said and the points and contributions they have made. It is certainly my intention to meet to discuss their points to see whether we may move or if the Government are not persuaded. We will meet to discuss all of that.

I will just reply to some different points before I come to the formal remarks. My noble friend Lord Beamish will be happy that his amendments have at least caused the Government to say that we will have to reflect on the points he has made. He knows me well enough to know that I do not say that as a way of assuaging his views but as a genuine engagement that we can have to see whether we can take forward his points. I say that to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble Lord, Lord Russell, with respect to the support they have given to those amendments and the various comments noble Lords have made.

I take the point that the German system is not exactly the same. As my noble friend pointed out, in the Secretary of State’s speech he spoke about our system being inspired by what happened in Germany. That is the point. It is not an exact replica but it has been inspired by it. In discussions with the German commissioner we have taken that forward.

As the noble Lord, Lord Russell, helpfully pointed out, the German commissioner sits in the Bundestag. The German model allows for their commissioner to be there and join in and that is not the role we will have for the commissioner, so again, it is different in that sense. There are differences, but the fundamental question goes back to the point the noble Lord, Lord Russell, made and that the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, made earlier; we are setting up the commissioner to answer the “So what?” question.

In answer to the question on how the military feel about it, they are very supportive of this commissioner being set up, so that is really important. The noble Lord, Lord Russell, is right to challenge us; this is a difficult balance between independence and accountability. We are attempting to say that the commissioner has to be independent to command the respect of all of us and to do the job we need them to do: to act without fear or favour to deal with some of the very real issues we face. But we want them to be accountable as well.

My noble friend Lord Beamish has said that accountability should be done through confirmatory votes of both Houses of Parliament. The Government’s view, as it stands, is that that accountability should be done through the Defence Select Committee, with the pre-appointment scrutiny process there and its ability, once the appointment is made, to consider that further and report to the Secretary of State on its view of the suitability of that particular candidate. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, has added another possible dimension to it. All of us are wrestling with independence versus accountability. That is a very real dilemma for all of us, but it is a balance we seek to achieve.

I will say a little about the Armed Forces commissioner and the process as we see it. I want to answer my noble friend’s question as it shows a difficulty. My noble friend asked why the appointment is on the recommendation of the Secretary of State and not a parliamentary appointment. He noted the fact that it was pointed out at Second Reading that the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman was a precedent for the sort of process he wants. However, there are several examples of similar roles where appointments are made on the recommendation of Ministers and not subject to the same process as the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman.

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[Baroness Newlove (Con)]

My Lords, this is an interesting section for me, as the Victims’ Commissioner, because it feels very much like déjà vu. Governments like to do the window dressing but they do not put in the greater detail that will put the pillars into this role.

I want this to be a successful role. Yesterday, I was in—is it Havant? I should have learned my geography when I was at high school. I met all the military—their services, law and everything. There is a will to change the culture and to change for victims but, as I said at Second Reading, I worry that we have to resource this. I know that there is not a lot of money around and that defence has quite a high profile on its own ability but, in terms of this role being a success, I worry about the word “may”; the Bill says that the Secretary of State “may” give this for other staff.

I say that because of my present situation looking at budgets. There are figures being made without consulting the Victims’ Commissioner, so I am conscious that there could be figures made without consulting the Armed Forces commissioner. Previous amendments looked at this commissioner coming in and being raring to go; actually, in reality and practicality, things will take the first three years after their establishment. As with any business outside this Westminster bubble, it takes many years to set up staff because the process of getting staff is so slow.

It is also about enabling your network. It does not matter what that looks like: we have to ensure that we can make those resources available. Yes, I would like the costing to go down because there will be fewer victims, but, in reality, that could do a disservice to the gold-standard service that the commissioner gives. You are then going to whittle it down. I am really concerned about where we will get the resources. I do not want individuals to feel as though we are going to have all the grandeur and that we have committed to this as legislators but, in reality, when they go through the nooks and crannies of this, we have set things up to fail at the first hurdle. I say this in terms of not just the commissioner we put in place but the victims, the families and everybody else, because I know that there is a huge family in the military; I learned a lot about it yesterday.

It is more important that we start as we mean to go on. I do support this Bill. I am not looking at the Minister because he is not in charge of the purse strings, but I know—I have the scars to prove it and am still doing it—that, if you do not set up this role as it should be, it will absolutely do a disservice to the people who are desperate to have that voice of an independent.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I too will be very brief with these amendments.

I suggest that it is difficult to see how one should quantify what constitutes adequate assistance for the commissioner. Of course, the commissioner must have the necessary resources to execute their duties efficiently. The Explanatory Notes estimate that, as my noble friend Lord Lancaster pointed out, the cost of this new office will be between £4.5 million and £5.5 million; that is considerably larger than the current cost of the ombudsman, which is £1.8 million. The funding, therefore, has been expanded. Is it sufficient?

Furthermore, as is the usual course, the Secretary of State will have to ensure that the commissioner receives the correct level of support. I am minded to conclude that these amendments may not be entirely necessary.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thank the noble Earl, Lord Minto, for his remarks and the points that he made. I also thank other noble Lords.

Again, let me say something about the general point around the reason for the Armed Forces commissioner; this was alluded to by the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, and referred to by my noble friend Lord Beamish. I have made my point. The noble Baroness and my noble friend were at Second Reading, so they know that I made the point about the statutory footing for the post then.

This is my personal view, as well as a ministerial view: it is of huge significance when the British Parliament, because of its concerns about some issues happening in the Armed Forces, establishes a statutory person or body—I forget the legal term—to undertake investigations into issues of general welfare concerns that can be raised by a wide cohort of regulars, reserves and their families. It has been given a statutory footing, rather than being a single response to a particular horrific event, although of course it is important to have an inquiry if something happens. To have a standing statutory office responsible for dealing with some of the issues that we have talked about and are all appalled about, with a statutory legislative basis, is significant.

I can take off the ministerial hat and become a citizen—and it means something for the vast majority of the people in this country to say that the legislative will of Parliament is that a statutory body has been set up to do something. The noble Lord, Lord Russell, raised the issue of culture. The statutory body or office of the Armed Forces commissioner will make a significant difference to individual investigations. As well intentioned and important as they are, although they can shine a light, they cannot get to an overall pattern of dealing with issues that arise and are brought to their concern. My noble friend raised the issue of it being statutory. I realise and agree that, on its own, that does not matter and will not make a difference, but it is of huge significance as a starting point for setting up the office.

I will deal with the particular points as I go through, and I want to take up a point that the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, made. Part of what we have in the Bill is the ability to have transition arrangements, moving from the end of the term of the Service Complaints Ombudsman at the end of 2025 to the new arrangements —the transition to the office that we want to set up in early 2026 to try to overcome any particular problems that occur. I take her point about trying to ensure that we get that office up and running as quickly as possible, notwithstanding the fact that, when you set something up new, there are inevitably things that come up. But I thank her for raising that point. I shall come to the point on resources when I have made some general points, and come back to other points that noble Lords have made.

Amendments 6 and 7 relate to the financial resources available to the commissioner. Both amendments aim to ensure that the commissioner has sufficient funding. The noble Baroness’s amendment would also ensure that they have practical assistance now and in the future to undertake their functions.

I reassure my noble friend Lord Beamish and the noble Baroness that I fully support and share their intentions. It is crucial that the commissioner has the tools that they need, and the Bill has been designed to ensure that that is the case. Therefore, the intent behind this amendment is critical and acutely observed.

I want to point something out to noble Lords and try to answer the points that they are raising. The Secretary of State has an obligation in Clause 4, under new Section 340IA(7), to

“co-operate with the Commissioner so far as is reasonable”.

It says that the Secretary of State

“must, in connection with an investigation … give the Commissioner such reasonable assistance as the Commissioner requests”.

That ensures that they have the necessary assistance from the Secretary of State to conduct their work effectively. In that instance, in dealing with investigations, the word “must” is included.

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Moved by

[The Earl of Minto]

8: Clause 4, page 2, line 35, at end insert—
“(2A) A “general service welfare matter” may include issues relating to the wellbeing of, and provision of support to, the children, families and other dependants of serving and former members of the armed forces, including but not limited to—(a) the provision and operation of the Continuity of Education Allowance,(b) the provision of special educational needs tuition, and(c) the maintenance of service families’ accommodation.”

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, Amendments 8 and 9 are in my name and the name of my noble friend Lady Goldie. I also thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich for adding his name to these amendments. I know that he is particularly concerned with these issues of welfare and their impacts on the families of our Armed Forces personnel.

These amendments seek to ensure that the commissioner will consider both the educational needs of service families and Armed Forces pensions. They therefore seek to expand on the somewhat limited definition of general service welfare matters in the Bill. I will preface my remarks by acknowledging that we have not presented an exhaustive list—nor do we intend to. But we believe that these issues are of sufficient importance to warrant debate during our deliberations today.

Many Armed Forces families depend on private schools. By the very nature of their service, personnel frequently find themselves moving locations, be that through overseas deployment or reassignment from one garrison or airbase to another. This poses a number of welfare concerns. It requires service personnel to either uproot their families or put them into an independent school, which allows their children to remain in a familiar educational setting. Imposing VAT on fees for independent schools will regrettably result in higher fees being passed on to the service men and women, who are simply trying to ensure the continuity of their children’s education.

I impress on the Minister that charging VAT on private school fees for military families will make becoming or remaining a service member less attractive, not more.

In response to this and in the interest of fairness, the Government have decided to uprate the continuity of education allowance. However, as my noble friend Lady Goldie has been keen to highlight through her Oral Question on 5 February and her letter to the Minister, there is real concern that this uprating will not be sufficient to cover the new higher fees. Unfortunately, this has the potential to negatively impact both recruitment and retention.

The issue that I have outlined is even greater when one considers the provision of special educational needs for the children of service personnel. There are already significant barriers to service families receiving adequate support for their children with special educational needs. It can take up to two years to receive an education, health and care plan from the local authority but, given that service personnel often find themselves relocating, this process is made all the harder.

There can be no doubt that the education of their children constitutes a serious welfare matter for those serving in our Armed Forces. All parents want the best for their families, and ensuring that they will not have to withdraw their children from school, or that they will be able to support their child with special educational needs, impacts on their morale. This is evidenced by responses to the Armed Forces Continuous Attitude Survey, where in 2024, 62% of respondents reported that the impact of service life on their families was the main reason for leaving the services. We know that more must be done to improve this, and I am concerned that some of the Government’s measures regarding education may have the reverse effect.

The intention of Amendment 9 is to confirm with absolute certainty that the commissioner will consider pensions and the role they play in recruitment and retention. Let us be in no doubt that they remain one of the major benefits offered to service personnel. In their Autumn Budget, the Government proposed charging inheritance tax on the death-in-service payment while a service member is not on active duty abroad. We know that the benefit will continue to be exempted when a service member dies when deployed on active duty, but the exemption will not apply when the death occurs at home. This is nothing less than an injustice. If Sergeant Jones, for example, has an unfortunate accident while driving his car and passes away, not on active service, he will be penalised. He may have just come back from an active war zone the day before, where, had he been killed, his benefit would have been protected.

The principle here is surely that it does not matter where a service member dies; their families will continue to grieve regardless. They will still require support, both financial and emotional, and the new commissioner should be able to provide that. This Bill is aimed at protecting the retention and recruitment of Armed Forces personnel. It seems fitting that the commissioner must therefore consider the education of service families and death-in-service payments. I beg to move.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak to what I hope is the last of my amendments today, Amendment 11, on the further matters that the commissioner may investigate. Before I speak to my amendment, I have a question that arises from the two amendments in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, and others, and so ably spoken to by the noble Earl, Lord Minto, which is about the scope of the commissioner’s role. I think I heard the Minister say earlier in response to Amendment 2 that the purview of the Armed Forces commissioner applies as long as somebody is in uniform, from the day of attestation, and I understood it to be for the time that the person is in uniform, and that it did not also apply to veterans. I would be interested to know whether I have misunderstood or whether the amendments—

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[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The contribution the noble Lord has just made shows the advantage of his experience and knowledge. We will certainly consider that, and I will write to him and circulate the letter to members of the Committee, because some of it is quite technical and legal, and subject to all sorts of various laws under different pieces of legislation. I shall ask my officials to reflect on the point. I could hazard an answer, but I will get a proper, official answer, send it to the noble Lord, copy it to all members of the Committee and place a copy in the Library. I hope that that is satisfactory to the noble Lord, because the points that he makes are important, and I do not want inadvertently to mislead or misinform the Committee.

I turn briefly to some of the other points related to the points the noble Lord has made. I note that the significant Amendment 8, raising the Continuity of Education Allowance, special educational needs and service accommodation, refers to former service personnel. As the noble Lord will appreciate, the commissioner’s scope is deliberately tightly drawn to focus on serving personnel and their families, rather than former service personnel. As civilians, veterans already have full access to a range of mechanisms for support and redress and to enable their voices to be heard. Having said that, I have been in the noble Lord’s position, and I know that people sometimes say, “That amendment is not tight enough, it included something that is not within scope”, but that does not alter the fact that the intention of the amendment and of noble Lords, is to draw attention to issues of real concern with respect to serving personnel. As such, of course there are issues around special needs, which the Armed Forces covenant seeks to ensure are addressed properly. When service personnel go abroad, they take with them a form by which they can try to ensure that they are given support.

Special needs is a very real problem. I have to say as an aside that I think that special needs is an issue for all of us across society, from what I understand from friends, family and colleagues. Notwithstanding that, there are obviously particular circumstances with respect to serving personnel, and that needs to be reflected. Certainly, the Armed Forces covenant seeks to address that by saying that nobody should be disadvantaged through their service, and special needs is an example of that.

On the continuity of education allowance, I will not read out all the various statements in my brief. We have had a debate about it in Parliament, and I have answered questions. The noble Earl will have seen the rise in the continuity of education allowance to 90% of that cost, which—I tell him gently—was the policy of the previous Government, too. We cover that 90%. The impact on the behaviour of service personnel in their choice of education has been very limited in terms of the number of people who have changed their decisions on the basis of that change in the law. Whatever the rights and wrongs of it, very few people have changed their actions. Notwithstanding that, the noble Earl was right to raise it. We reflected on it as part of the challenge that the Government have and decided that an increase in the continuity of education allowance was important, whatever the rights and wrongs of the overall general government policy, which, obviously, I support.

Turning to Amendment 9, I acknowledge the concerns of the noble Baroness about pensions and death-in-service benefits, which impact both current and ex-service personnel, as well as their dependants. The amendment seeks to specify pensions, and wider associated benefits for dependants, as a particular area for the commissioner to focus on. As I said, it also seeks to allow former members to raise issues about pensions to the commissioner. Pensions and death-in-service benefits for dependants are of course extremely important and are not precluded from the scope of the commissioner. In the case of pensions, there is already a set procedure that allows current service personnel and veterans to raise complaints: the internal disputes resolution procedure. These cases are assessed by discretionary decision-makers within the Defence Business Services authority. If unhappy, they—like the vast majority of us—are able to appeal these decisions to the Pensions Ombudsman.

I reassure the noble Baroness that I am sympathetic to what Amendments 11 and 12 seek to achieve. The Armed Forces and their families represent a wide-ranging and diverse community, and it is important to acknowledge the experiences of minority groups and service personnel aged under 18 within the Armed Forces. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, quite rightly, continually raises this issue. Her opinion on the policies for recruiting under-18s to the Armed Forces differs from mine, but let me make it clear, as she and every member of the Committee has, and as we discussed earlier, that any abuse of anybody is unacceptable and needs to be dealt with quickly and forcefully. It is important to address and tackle any matters when they arise that are unique to one or more of these groups. It is vital that any member of the Armed Forces can access the commissioner and trust that he or she will consider their issues, regardless of who they are, where they serve and what they do.

I draw the Committee’s attention, as the noble Baroness, Lady Carberry, helpfully did, to paragraph 6 of Schedule 1, which adds the commissioner to the list of public bodies captured by the public sector equality duty. The commissioner will already have a duty under the Equality Act 2010, which will cover all the characteristics listed in the amendment.

Finally, I assure the Committee that the commissioner’s reporting functions will enable the commissioner to report on any matters that have been raised and to make recommendations in relation to any issues related to minority groups—or, indeed, any of the other issues raised by the noble Earl, Lord Minto, and others. Let me restate that the commissioner will be able to investigate any matters that may materially impact the welfare of those who are subject to service law and their families. It is not necessary to specify this level of detail on any of these matters in legislation.

In fact, creating a list of individual matters for the commissioner’s remit could suggest that these topics are more relevant or important than others and may indirectly narrow the scope of what they consider, which would not necessarily be a desirable outcome. It could also be seen as contrary to upholding the commissioner’s independence. In other words, as soon as one starts to generate lists, one always ends up with an (f) or (g) that says, “and anything else that may be of significance”.

I hope that I have provided the noble Earl, Lord Minto, with the necessary reassurance. I thank all noble Lords and noble Baronesses for their contributions to this debate; I look forward to continuing our debate and discussion on further amendments on Monday.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I also thank all noble Lords and noble Baronesses for another interesting debate.

I will comment briefly on Amendments 11 and 12 from the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith and Lady Bennett. For the reasons that we have discussed, we do not believe that it is necessary to provide a list of groups that should receive special treatment from the commissioner. As we covered earlier, the Bill applies to all those who are subject to service law and their families. This includes all members of the regular forces and the Reserve Forces, not just a particular group of service members. This list is not exhaustive, obviously, but that causes an issue in itself.

I thank the Minister for his comments. I have no doubt that he understands the issues raised. I am sure that he has received representations from those affected, and I know he takes a genuine interest in the welfare of all service personnel. Having said that, these are issues that the commissioner really should investigate; I hope that this will be the case once the office is established. For now, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 8 withdrawn.

Ukraine: UK Policy

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Monday 17th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and her passionate words, with which I almost entirely agree.

I too thank the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, for promoting this debate at an appropriately sensitive point in this dreadful war. It has been a long, hard, gruelling three years since Putin’s troops marched again into Ukraine. As ever, I pay tribute to the remarkable bravery and selfless sacrifice so many have demonstrated, in both the military and civilian population, in their struggle to resist the illegal invasion of their homeland and defend the sovereignty of their country. They are indeed an example to us all.

We have seen a flurry of activity over the past few weeks, some positive, some less so, which leads one to hope that the end of this war may indeed be in sight. As a couple of noble Lords have mentioned, the President of the United States has said that the killing has to stop. But, of course, that is all down to Putin. As many noble Lords have mentioned, Ukraine and the United States have agreed to a deal for an unconditional ceasefire for a period of 30 days. They now tacitly await a decision from the Russian President—the ball is now clearly in his court. But what we have seen in the last few days are shameful delaying tactics. The increased military pressure can be construed only as an obvious attempt to manoeuvre into a stronger, more threatening position on the battlefield, and so gain advantage, strength and an enhanced posture when it comes to the negotiating table.

We must resist this. The Prime Minister has done a very commendable job in navigating this geopolitical storm, and we will continue to support the Government in all these endeavours. But if Russia does not show a willingness to engage, we and our allies must be prepared to go further. Can the Minister expand on the steps that the Government are considering, or will take, if President Putin refuses to agree to a ceasefire? It is through an initial ceasefire that diplomacy can move towards some form of lasting peace.

Ukraine has come to the negotiating table, the United States has come to the negotiating table and Europe stands ready to commit significant peacekeeping troops in some form or another, should it be necessary. It is time for Russia to demonstrate that she, too, is ready for peace. The world waits with its breath held. This is an opportunity that must be taken for the sake of us all, but most particularly for the warring factions and even more particularly for the brave peoples of Ukraine.