Water Bill

Debate between Earl of Lytton and Baroness Northover

Monday 31st March 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

My Lords, this is the first time that I have spoken at this stage of the Bill and I, too, must declare that I live in a band H property. However, I also have a professional interest in parts of the Bill by virtue of being a chartered surveyor. I certainly welcome the proposals for the affirmative resolution procedures outlined by the noble Baroness and agree that the disclosure of council tax information is necessary. However, I have one query, which relates to Amendment 90CD. Could the noble Baroness confirm that the normal process of disclosure will generally relate to the identity of the property and its council tax band rather than the identity of the chargepayer, the latter being something that is normally held by the billing authority? If I have missed some point about the disclosure, and where the identity of the individual can be discovered, perhaps she would put me out of my misery.

[Baroness Northover]

I hope I can put everybody out of their misery, which probably reflects the fact that I rattled through this in six minutes. First, I will take up the points made by my noble friend Lord Cathcart. We will come to a further discussion of reserves later, in which I am sure he will be interested. I make it clear that Amendment 90L is intended to ensure that employment contracts within the scheme are transferable, where otherwise they might not be. I reassure him that the amendment that he mentioned is not intended to enable the transfer of reserves that are required to be retained for prudential regulatory purposes. I hope that reassures the noble Earl on that particular point. I probably just went too fast on that one.

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for his general support for these amendments. In response to the points he raised, I recognise fully, as a member of the Government, that the best thing to do when the Delegated Powers Committee comes forward with recommendations is to agree. However, he will also be aware that there are times when the affirmative procedure is used in the first instance and not thereafter because it is not anticipated that there will be significant changes later. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, will be very familiar with that pattern.

The noble Lord asked about hybridity. I will just go back to my original comments on that and then come to what I have been handed by way of inspiration. Amendment 90T addresses the risks that secondary legislation made at the end of the life of Flood Re could be seen as hybrid. The noble Lord thought that we had indicated in some way that we were just sweeping that aside—at least, I understood him to indicate that. I repeat that at the end of Flood Re we have every intention of carrying out a full consultation before making secondary legislation to ensure that any private interests are properly considered. I hope that the noble Lord is reassured on that point.

Perhaps I may write to the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, with further details on the point that he raised. I am sure that we can reassure him.

I am just checking to see whether I have covered everything. I trust that I have and am sure that noble Lords will make it very clear if I have not. I hope that, on that basis, they will accept the government amendments that I laid out at such speed.

Water Bill

Debate between Earl of Lytton and Baroness Northover

Tuesday 11th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, far be it from me to judge upon acts of God or even the implications of the Equality Act.

I thank the noble Earl for his amendment, which I will address at a little length, as I think he would probably like to hear my comments. He speaks of instances where the Environment Agency might decide to withdraw from maintaining some flood management assets and suggests that this could create a challenging situation for landowners, residents and others affected. He will probably know that we are discussing those concerns with the Country Land and Business Association, to which he referred, and that my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State met it on 23 January.

We share the noble Earl’s wish to reduce the possibility of litigation, which is an aspect that is implied by some of the concerns expressed by the noble Earl. That is why we are promoting the asset maintenance protocol published by the Environment Agency. We strongly believe that developing partnerships and working arrangements between local parties to guarantee future maintenance is the best way to prevent problems arising that could lead to claims of liability.

The Environment Agency and other authorities maintain many thousands of flood defence assets. The situation to which the noble Earl refers is not one which is affected by this Bill. He is picking up instances where the Environment Agency may decide that it is no longer going to support certain flood defences and the responsibility for that would fall to others. So I would separate this issue from the Bill, as the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, sort of did.

The Environment Agency is looking to withdraw maintenance of some of these assets where maintenance is no longer economically justifiable or where the work may not have a high enough priority for central government funding over the longer term. Examples of such assets are embankments in rural areas that protect grazing land or small flow control structures such as gates or penstocks.

Understanding these concerns, the Environment Agency has published, and recently updated, a protocol explaining the processes it will follow. The agency is committed to bringing together landowners and other affected parties to make sure that they are clear on their respective roles and responsibilities and that they understand the range of options that may be available to them for future management of the assets and their likely costs, benefits and impacts. This may include options for continued maintenance of assets by local groups and options involving less or no maintenance. The agency will then work with all the interested parties to help them reach agreement on how the parties involved will take forward maintenance of the asset in the future. It is possible, for example, for the landowner on whose land a defence is situated to enter into an agreement to secure contributions from his neighbours towards the costs of maintenance and repairs.

We understand the noble Earl’s concerns about whether these agreements will be possible. However, it is important to remember that third parties are also expected to play their part. If third parties refuse to make reasonable contributions for the maintenance of a flood defence asset that is protecting their property, they could diminish the success of any future claims against the landowner.

The noble Earl has suggested regulations should be drawn up to set out what actions a landowner should take in order to meet any claims of liability. This would not be the simple clarification that the noble Earl might have been expecting. Such regulations would need to cover many types of assets, the type of location, as well as a list of all possible activities that might be appropriate for their maintenance. The regulations would need to address the range of impacts of flooding, ranging from a garden becoming waterlogged to flooding of many buildings and possible loss of life. Most importantly, the regulations would need to address such complications as a flood asset being owned by one or more landowners or a number of different beneficiaries of different means. Such regulations would be complex and, to be proportionate, would need to have an element of subjectivity to what a landowner would be required to do to avoid liability.

For that reason, we do not believe that such regulations could give significantly more certainty than the current case law. We firmly believe that use of the Environment Agency’s protocol gives all the parties involved a chance to ensure an outcome that reflects the particular situation and circumstances of each individual case, while avoiding the need for litigation between landowners. For these reasons I encourage the noble Earl to withdraw his amendment.

[The Earl of Lytton]

My Lords, at this hour of the night it is not my intention to press the amendment; as I said at the outset, it is a probing one. I am grateful to the Minister for her explanation. I am aware of the ongoing discussions and I appreciate that this matter sort of sits outside the Bill. I suppose that if I have a hook to hang it on, it is the situation where somebody might be protected by such works and finds they are no longer protected and unable to get full cover insurance. They then go looking for the next deep pocket in order to press a claim, so the geometry of the circumstances might change.

However, it is right that the matter should be discussed by the industries concerned. I would hope that the protocol would at least give some protection in the sense that, if one had done something in accordance with the protocol that was agreed between the parties, that would be a reasonable defence in law. However, I do not think that I can ask the noble Baroness to go into that sort of detail. I would like to reserve my position in case it is necessary for me to come back to this at a later stage of the Bill but, in the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.