Schools: Exclusion of Disabled Children

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Wednesday 11th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, the noble Lord is correct that it does not prevent a pupil with SEN being excluded, but any exclusion must be lawful, reasonable and fair. Schools must also balance their responsibilities for children with SEN or disabilities with their responsibility to ensure that all children are able to experience good-quality teaching in a safe environment. The guidance is also clear that, when a pupil is identified with SEN, head teachers need to consider what extra support is needed to identify and address their needs. Lastly, I remind the House that we have commissioned a report from Edward Timpson specifically on exclusions.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister concerned that, as increasing numbers of initial teacher trainees are trained in schools, there is a risk that they will not get the training they need to work with these complex children? Will he look in particular at the apprenticeship route into teacher training and ensure that their mentors have time with them not only in class but protected time outside the class to talk to these trainee teachers and support them in their development?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, we have funded the Autism Education Trust and have recently extended that to improve the awareness of these conditions of education staff. We have now brought that awareness to more than 175,000 teachers and education staff in the past five years, which is 25,000 more than when I last answered a Question on autism only a month ago.

Grammar Schools

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Wednesday 27th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, the amount of capital allocated to the grammar school expansion fund is, as the noble Lord says, £50 million against the context of over £1 billion allocated to the mainstream state system, so the sums are not big. However, we should discriminate between capital and revenue funding. While there is some pressure on schools on revenue funding, they receive 6.5% more per pupil in real terms than under the highest level of Tony Blair’s regime.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the additional funding that the Government are putting into pupil premium and pupil premium plus, to assist disadvantaged children. Is the Minister keeping his eyes front and foremost on the need to address the deficits in teachers, particularly in mathematics? We need the best teachers to help our most disadvantaged children to do the best they can. Does he agree?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, it is a top priority of the Government to ensure that we have enough good maths teachers. Indeed, the noble Lord may be aware that we have now opened two specialist maths schools linked to universities, and are about to announce another one. They are producing some of the best mathematicians for the future generation, and I hope that they will go into teaching themselves.

Free School Lunches and Milk, and School and Early Years Finance (Amendments Relating to Universal Credit) (England) Regulations 2018

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Tuesday 20th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Patten (Con)]

My Lords, I do not have a flinty heart, but I am not oversentimental. However, I was moved by what the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, said about his own circumstances and his hard-working mother and how people in working poverty suffer. I do not think there is anyone in this House who is not concerned about poverty and about dealing with it properly. But that always has to be based on fact and not on sentiment. What strikes me about what the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, said in his speech is that there is a huge gap, not just in alleged or asserted numbers but in credibility, between the alleged 1 million child losers to whom he referred and the assurances given, for example, in a Parliamentary Answer by my noble friend Lord Agnew of Oulton earlier this month that by 2022 there will be an increase in the number of children getting free school meals. There is a seven-figure difference between the Answer from my noble friend and the figures of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam. I am all in favour of building bridges —I would welcome building a bridge with the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, if I got the chance—but there is an unbridgeable gap here; a seven-figure gap.

The noble Lord may wish to reflect on his own time as a distinguished Labour Chief Whip. In Division after endless Division, he clicked away, totting up the votes, with the ever-helpful learned clerks counting up on their devices as a back-up—we all like our statistical fact checkers, and there is no hiding place for the eventual numbers of the contents and the not-contents. Yet there are lots of independent authorities which say that his figures asserting massive losses of free school meals are—forgive my uncharacteristic bluntness—wrong. Unlike some of my colleagues, I like experts, and these authorities and experts range from the UK Statistics Authority, which makes it clear that claims that universal credit causes poverty are wrong, through to the “Channel 4 News” FactCheck, which pointed out that no child currently receiving free school meals will lose their entitlement, but rather that more will benefit from the changes.

So, while I understand the strength of feeling, it seems that we have seen the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, with his new-found arithmetical freedom, transmogrify from being an obsessive bean counter—or perhaps I should say Peer counter—of those voting content or not-content into what some might think to be a statistical tearaway, albeit in a good cause. I do not doubt that it is a good cause, but, in the end, hard facts, rather than what some would think of as exaggeration, are best to rely on.

I certainly wish to see all children in all households that are in need get help. But if all children of all households on universal credit were to get free school meals, we would be talking about a cost of billions, and I am not making that up. I wonder what the shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer thinks about that. By comparison, I congratulate Her Majesty’s Government on what they are doing. All children in years 1 and 2 will continue to get free school meals—this was not mentioned in the debate—and no child will lose out as universal credit is rolled out. With respect to the noble Lord, these are facts rather than assertions.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, it is good to hear the noble Lord, Lord Patten, recognising that on all sides of the House we are very concerned about the just-managing families. Two-thirds of all children in poverty live in working families that are working hard to make ends meet and to do the best for their children. It was encouraging to hear the Prime Minister talk so strongly after the Brexit vote about reaching out to those just-managing families in need. So I hope that the Minister will take this golden opportunity offered to us by the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, to give moral support to children and families in poverty today, and to say from the Dispatch Box that, yes, there may be difficulties, but he will look at how we can ensure that all children in poverty get a free school meal.

This morning, I spoke with a mother who endured poverty for several years. She was a victim of domestic violence; she was in a refuge for three months; and, last year, she spent six to seven months in bed and breakfast accommodation, living in one room with her teenage daughter and infant granddaughter. That was a hugely challenging time for her and she needed her friends around her to give her moral support. This morning, she told me that she had been successful in a visa application. She is now in a financially better state, and has found a new relationship with a good man. We need to give support to families when they are struggling through difficult times—and these are difficult times for so many families after years of austerity. Her issue is extreme, but many of the families we are talking about will be suffering severe housing problems. Increasing numbers of children are growing up in bed and breakfasts or hostel accommodation, and even those with more secure accommodation lack clear security of tenure.

Over the weekend, as your Lordships will have heard, a British teacher won the accolade of best teacher in the world. She talked of her experience in Brent, where she was very concerned about housing—so many children living in an overcrowded home and having to work in the bathroom to be able to concentrate.

These families are coping with the stress brought about by years of austerity. They have lost their early intervention services as local services have been cut. This is an opportunity for the Government—yes, perhaps a difficult one—to think about how we can offer moral support to those families. Often, it is mothers bringing up their children on their own, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, said at the beginning of the debate, giving them the confidence that their child will have a good, healthy, hot meal at the beginning of the day gives them one less thing to worry about. Surely we can reach out to these families and offer them that help. I hope that the Minister will give us that assurance today.

[The Lord Bishop of Portsmouth]

My Lords, it normally gives me great pleasure to speak in your Lordships’ house, but this evening I speak with some sorrow. I am hoping that the proposals made by the Government—involving, I am sure, the Treasury, the Department for Education and the Department for Work and Pensions—are perhaps the result of the complexity of those interlocking interests and have inadvertently left what surely cannot be intended. The consequences of this policy run counter to everything that the Government have said about the principle of universal credit, which I and many others have supported. If the consequences are unintended then I shall be delighted and relieved to hear the Minister say so.

I have looked at these regulations and concluded that they drive a coach and horses at some speed through the defining principle of universal credit—a principle I wholeheartedly endorse—that work should pay. They create an arbitrary cliff edge at a low-income threshold, off which many risk falling. For working families just below the current threshold, this proposal would very clearly not make extra work pay. They would be better off not seeking more paid work and leaving their children on free school meals, unless their family income increased by some considerable margin. Those just above the threshold will be worse off under the regulations, facing school meal charges. They would be better off working less. That is at best an anomaly, but I am tempted to describe it as an absurdity.

I do not, however, see this as pointing to a flaw or a contradiction in policy design. Rather, it points to the real, pressing and increasingly difficult circumstances that, over the years, families will face. More often than not, this will affect people who are already in work who earn very little—people whose weekly budgets already have little or no slack.

Some Members of your Lordships’ House may recall that recently I chaired a briefing for Members of both Houses. A number of your Lordships may remember Clare, who spoke to us. Her oldest child currently receives free school meals. She and her husband do not want to live on benefits, credits or allowances; they want to get on and get up. Clare’s husband had been made redundant, and after 18 months volunteering in a local school he now works as a teaching assistant and earns £8,000. Clare had worked for 15 years as an NHS dental nurse, but her clinic closed. I quote Clare with her permission. She said:

“We both never, ever thought we would be in this situation. We feel terribly ashamed to have to rely on help”.


Clare is retraining as a solicitor. When she has done so, her husband will complete his own retraining as a teacher; both will incur significant debts. Hers will be £56,000. Clare told me that they have many working years ahead of them and look forward to a future in which taxes are spent helping the vulnerable in society. She feels blessed to live in a society that has a safety net in place for them and others facing short-term difficulties.

These regulations will not help Clare and those like her overcome these short-term challenges. They will add to them and hinder her from creating a long-term future for herself and her family, because Clare has no slack. She told us her family of four,

“survives on £10 a day for our food and petrol … with no luxuries”.

Clare does not understand how the figure of £7,400 has been arrived at. Nor does she understand how introducing an earnings threshold as low as that could possibly benefit people in her situation. I do not understand either. She knows her eight-year-old daughter will, for now, continue to receive free school meals, but what of her son, who starts school in September and other children of their ages? As she observes, initially it seems nobody will lose out, but in the long term more and more people—and more specifically, more and more children—will.

We are potentially creating anxiety, even despair, when we should offer hope and support. We are creating a cliff edge so that work does not pay. The job of this House is often to ask the Government to think again about what may be the unintended consequences of policy. The outcomes of this one are severe. I ask the Government to think again this evening, and I do so from the bottom of my heart.

Children: Mental Health Assessments

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Monday 18th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, I certainly congratulate the local authority on that great work. A number of pilots are operating across the country—over 80—experimenting with different ways in which to help these vulnerable children. Only last week, Ealing had an open day to showcase some of the work that it has been doing for vulnerable children, and invited every other local authority in the country. It has been able to reduce the number of children going into care, and to save money as well. So there is a lot going on and, with the launch of the pilots that I have discussed with the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, we will be doing a lot more on this.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests in the register in children’s mental health. Can the Minister assure the House that the recommendations of the expert working group will be fully funded by the Government? In particular, will recommendations around children’s homes be fully funded? Children’s homes have the most damaged young people, who are placed there as a last measure, yet their staff are still very poorly qualified. David Berridge, the eminent academic, commenting on the predation on children in homes in Rotherham, said that we must start moving towards having higher qualified staff in children’s homes, given the complexity of their needs and their vulnerability to predation.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, in answer to the first question, the expert working group made 16 recommendations and we will seek to include all of them in the construction of the pilot programme. In relation to secure children’s homes, we all acknowledge that these are some of the most vulnerable children in our society. There are 14 secure children’s homes in England, covering 133 welfare and 117 criminal justice placements. The mental health Green Paper underlined the need to increase the number of qualified staff working with vulnerable children and we will certainly look very carefully at that.

Free Childcare Entitlements

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Wednesday 6th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Storey, for his realistic comments on this complicated but important new provision. As far as availability is concerned, as I said, in the 12 live pilot schemes 80% of existing providers have engaged and another 10% say that they are considering it. Obviously there will be some areas where there may be gaps in provision and we will work with the sector to see that they are filled.

We did a detailed study of the amount of money that should be paid, which the National Audit Office described as thorough and wide-ranging. The recent independent survey from Frontier Economics said that we were more than covering the costs of the extra provision.

So far as support for providers is concerned, the noble Lord makes a very good point that we need to do all we can to help providers develop their businesses. We have a package of support to help providers to ensure that their business remains stable. This includes a document of key insights from successful providers, guidance on marketing, managing finances and business planning, and an online directory of organisations that can provide business and finance support. We have also awarded grants to the National Day Nurseries Association and the Professional Association of Childcare and Early Years to develop new business sustainability resources. We will do whatever else we need to do.

On the percentage, we anticipated on the basis of a 75% take-up that we would get 200,000 applicants at this time. We have had 216,000.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the Minister who has taken this policy through from the beginning—he took the Bill through the Lords and has taken pains to listen to concerns from around the House. I think I speak for us all when I say that we are very grateful to him. On the issue of quality, maintained nursery schools, in particular, where the staff are qualified teachers, find that they have higher expenses and overheads than much other provision, because of their highly qualified staff. Will he pay particular attention to concerns raised from that sector as this is rolled out, and be sensitive to its particular needs?

The Minister was good enough to listen to concerns about homeless families and their access to this provision. Will he also keep an eye on how effective we are at reaching out to them and how the pilots have worked in that area? If he could say some more reassuring words about high-quality provision and assure us that the rollout will not lead to a dilution in quality, it would be very welcome.

Schools: Recruitment and Retention

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Tuesday 18th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

I know that the noble Lord is very experienced in this area, but he has picked one particular statistic. The fact is that returners to education employment have increased by 8% since 2011 and, as noble Lords will know, this year our recruitment programme has run substantially ahead of last year. We have again recruited 100% of primary teachers and 89%, as opposed to 82%, of secondary teachers.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister consider reviewing the system of continuing professional development for teachers with a view to streamlining and strengthening it? Only last week I heard from the leader of a multi-academy trust that he thought that there are too many providers in this area and it is not working efficiently. Does the Minister agree that consistently excellent levels of continuing professional development could have a significant impact on the retention of teachers?

[Lord Nash]

The noble Earl makes an extremely good point. I think that we are all aware that continuous professional development for teachers is vital. Their initial training may be brief, for nine months, and I think that it is accepted by all in the profession —I have had discussions with the unions as well— that professional development should take place throughout a teacher’s career, particularly in their first three or five years. We know that overseas—for instance, in Shanghai—the programme takes five years. We are seeing many multi-academy trusts developing much more sophisticated continuous professional development for their teachers.

Free Childcare Hours

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Tuesday 18th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

As I said, the early implementers, which have already been tested with 4,000 parents, seem to be going extremely well. I take the noble Baroness’s point about particular examples and would be very happy for her to share those details with me further so that I can penetrate this to see if there is anything systemic here and if we can help these particular parents.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, are there any particular obstacles to accessing the free childcare hours for families living in temporary accommodation? Do they have difficulty getting information about what is on offer? As the Minister knows, 100,000 children are currently in temporary accommodation, 40% of whose families are in employment so many of them will be eligible. Will the Minister write to me on this point if he cannot elucidate now?

[Lord Nash]

I cannot see any reason why the fact that they are in temporary accommodation should be a barrier. We have tried very hard to advertise the service and of course they can go to any local provider to talk to them about it, but I will write to the noble Earl about this.

Children in Need

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Monday 17th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

I am delighted that my noble friend visited Reach Academy in Feltham. It is an outstanding example of the success of the free schools programme, and I am pleased that it has also been approved to open a second free school. I know that my noble friend has done a great deal of excellent work with the Centre for Social Justice on the concept of family hubs. Obviously, the earlier we can help children the better, and this is why we are encouraging so many primary schools to open nursery schools, through the free schools programme and otherwise. A number of local authorities have introduced family hub-type models, and I hope we will see more of them. However, ultimately it is up to local authorities to decide the best local solution.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

Does the Minister agree that school exclusion can exacerbate the difficult situation of children in need and may put them into care? Will he look at whether the system of continuing professional development for teachers can be strengthened and streamlined so that teachers are better able to manage such children and do not need to exclude them?

[Lord Nash]

I entirely agree with the noble Earl that school exclusions are to be avoided at all costs, if possible. Certainly, permanent exclusions are counterproductive and even temporary exclusions are often so, because they amount effectively to the child bunking off for a day. They would be much better off segregated in the school, doing something which encouraged them to behave better in future. Most teachers are very keen to avoid school exclusions. I have just taken over responsibility for attendance and exclusions and will certainly look at this in more detail.

Children and Social Work Bill [HL]

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 4th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, I too welcome much of what the Minister has said, as well as the work undertaken by the Government and the Members of the other House, particularly their acceptance of the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady King, on adopted children, as promised. The Minister’s last words highlighting the continued financial support for higher education institutions to train social workers are also very important and very welcome.

I share my noble friend’s concern about proposed new Clause 9 regarding secure accommodation in Scotland. I recognise that there is a crisis in the care of looked-after children. Since the death of baby Peter the number of children taken into care has risen year on year, and we anticipate that the number will increase even more steeply. There is pressure on foster placements and pressure on children’s homes in England and Wales. I recognise that it is sometimes better to send a child a long way from home if there is excellent and specialist provision to meet their needs. However, as a patron of a children’s advocacy charity, I know very well from young people themselves that what they wish for above all is continuity of positive relationships, so sending more children further away from home is always a matter of concern. I know that the Government are apprised of that principle. The thought that we are making it easier through this legislation to place more children out of England and Wales, far from their local authority—in Scotland—therefore causes me concern. The President of the Family Division of the High Court, Lord Justice Munby, said that this was something that needed to be considered, but he also said that there should be a joint Law Commission report into it. My concern is that it needs to be thoroughly considered. I would be grateful to hear from the Minister that, before this amendment is implemented, there will be thorough consultation to consider its implications.

On Amendment 14, on the improvement of standards for social workers, I agree that standards need to be improved. There has been a long-standing concern about the quality of education of social workers. I recognise that they have often not been fully equipped to practise when they have completed their courses. However, it is right to insist that the Secretary of State should consult with the social work profession and higher education institutions in developing these standards. The Minister was fairly reassuring on that point although he did not explicitly mention the higher education institutions. My concern is that there is a risk that ideology and strongly held personal prejudice can lead judgment in the development of social work. The role of the social worker is highly emotionally charged, and it always has been. These people step into the lives of families and children for understandable reasons. The widest possible consultation with academics and practitioners would avoid the risk that the prejudices of one individual or one group could shape the standards too sharply.

I recognise the benefits of the innovative training models such as Frontline, which the Government introduced. The Minister has been fairly reassuring on this last point so I will not go further on that. I do not intend to speak again this afternoon but I warmly welcome the next set of amendments and the introduction of statutory personal, social health and economic education. A long-standing concern is that teachers in schools are just not equipped to teach the difficult subject of sex and relationship education. I hope that by putting this on a statutory basis many more teachers will be properly equipped and children will get the education they need.

[Lord Warner (CB)]

My Lords, I too welcome what the Government have done in responding to some of the concerns that have been expressed about the Bill. They have shown their willingness to listen and to make amendments and I commend them for that.

I just want to raise an issue around secure accommodation. My warning lights always start flashing on the subject of children’s secure accommodation. It is very difficult to regulate this area and to ensure that good care is provided, because the unit costs tend to be extremely high. If we have now got to the point where we have to take children over the border—where they have to cross the Tweed to get their secure accommodation—we should start to be concerned. This sector has shrunk and shrunk and shrunk in England. This was starting when I was chairman of the Youth Justice Board, up to 2003, and it is very difficult to get people to work in it, to set the systems up and to ensure that they continue to be safe.

There is something to be said, not just for the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, but for taking an independent look at this sector and its economic viability. This is an area where, in effect, you almost have to pay for spare places to be available because you do not know when a child is going to require that accommodation. The Government now need to have a long, hard look at this. The sector has been shrinking for some time; it has proved difficult to get the finances right and to secure good staff. People are doing their best, but things can often go wrong in this sector. It is very difficult to ensure that these places are regulated properly. The Minister might want to write later, rather than responding today, but will he and his department consider whether a review of the sector is long overdue?

Technical and Further Education Bill

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 1st February 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, it is a particular privilege to follow the speeches of the noble Baronesses, Lady Stedman-Scott and Lady Mone. They eloquently communicated the benefit of the Bill for our young people. It will enable them to follow their passions and make a better life than many of them experienced in their family, or than their parents did, and possibly to offer a better life to their children. I was particularly grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, for giving some illustrations, which sparked off in my mind a recent meeting I had with a young care leaver in her early 20s, who was on an apprenticeship with Accenture in the City. I was introduced to her by Drive Forward, a wonderful charity working with care leavers entering the professions. She was diminutive—perhaps five feet tall—and from an ethnic minority. I am not sure that her first language was English. She was facing all adversity in pursuing this opportunity. She was virtually homeless, and I had an email asking, “Can you help? She is just about to become homeless”. Fortunately, she found herself new accommodation. She also has quite a serious disability, but she is going for it; she has her ambitions and she is pursuing them.

I also welcome what the noble Lord, Lord Baker, said about maths. I attended the All-Party Parliamentary Group meeting on teaching supply last year. It was a meeting of maths teachers, and I was very distressed to hear their concern about the lack of maths teachers in our schools. It took me back to my childhood—I was a science nerd and I spent much time with my chemistry set. On a spring holiday in Cornwall, I would be pining for the latest “Horizon” documentary playing back at the house but, unfortunately, my maths was simply not good enough to take my science forward. I wholly share the noble Lord’s concern that we will not get the STEM graduates that we need if we do not address the issue of maths, so I am glad to hear that the Minister is pursuing this vigorously.

I welcome the Bill, as others have, and say how grateful I am to the Minister for the briefing his officials have provided and for the joint briefing between him and the Skills Minister, Mr Halfon. I am very glad to see that the Skills Minister has been present for this debate and listened to your Lordships’ contributions.

We have underperformed in vocational education to the detriment of our productivity, and to our shame, when we compare ourselves to nations such as Germany, as many noble Lords have said. Yesterday’s Third Reading of the HS2 Bill—HS2, the largest infrastructure project that this nation has undertaken—reminds us why this Bill is so important to the nation. A positive aspect of Brexit—I must say that I deplore our turning away from our continental neighbours and our increased dependence on the United States—is that British businesses may be compelled to pay more attention to the training and development of young nationals of this country. I know that many businesses already do that, but there has not been sufficient incentive for them. The institute can play an important role in capitalising on this opportunity for our young people. I regret the absence of Lord Dearing and Baroness Sharp of Guildford, who had such passion and expertise in this area, but I know that they will be present with us today in spirit.

I should like to explore two related concepts in the context of the new institute: continuity and expertise in effective execution of policy, following the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Baker, about making it an independent institution which may occasionally take a strongly independent policy view. Further, I will ask about progress in assisting care leavers into apprenticeships. Finally, I will ask whether the board can have the support of an expert on adolescents. I declare my interest as a trustee of the Brent Centre for Young People, a mental health service for adolescents in north London.

There has been concern about the execution of policy on apprenticeships. All have recognised the importance of apprenticeships. Delivery has been disappointing. What makes for good policy and good execution of policy? Continuity and expertise, I suggest. In this House, we see the example of the Minister himself, if I may say so, in the schools sphere. In the other place, there is the Minister of State for Children, Edward Timpson MP. These are Ministers who have stayed in post over several years and developed experience, expertise and relationships. In the flux of politics, these individuals have been able to pursue their briefs, which they feel passionate about, building expertise and influential relationships over many years.

If we look at Germany, we see the benefits of continuity and expertise for successful policy. By a quirk of political culture, the German Liberal Party, the FPD, held the post of Chancellor of the Exchequer for 20 years, and the Foreign Ministry, under Hans-Dietrich Genscher, for a similar period. It is arguable that this continuity assisted in its economic success and his success in negotiating the tightrope between NATO and the East.

Continuity of role, and the expertise and influence that comes with it, is hard to achieve in British politics. That is why strong, arm’s-length institutions can be so important for effective policy and implementation —a point that I think the noble Lord, Lord Baker, was trying to make. In the criminal justice system, we have the outstanding example of the Youth Justice Board, exemplary in so many ways although, of course, with its imperfections. The Youth Justice Board’s high point was at its point of greatest freedom from political interference. I took particular interest in the board when it was threatened by the bonfire of the quangos at the beginning of the decade. At that time I visited Rochester Young Offender Institution, Medway Secure Training Centre, Feltham Young Offender Institution and Wetherby Young Offender Institution in Yorkshire. I was one of the followers of my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham in his successful campaign to protect the YJB. It is a great pity that so much of the YJB’s attention had to be put into defending itself from politicians. I hope the same fate does not befall the Institute for Apprenticeships. I am very glad to see, at this point at least, that there is all-party support for it.

In 2009, the chair and chief executive of the Youth Justice Board took two strategic decisions. First, the number of children in custody should be reduced. Secondly, this should be achieved by building relationships with all the relevant interest groups, while maintaining a respectful relationship with government. Such a reduction in numbers was not on the Government’s agenda at the time. In a few short years, in collaboration with government and interested parties, the number of children in custody was reduced from above 3,000 to about 1,000 and has remained at that reduced level for the last five years.

I met the then chair, Frances Done, on a number of occasions and we became acquainted. She was remarkable, especially in her ability to build bridges between opposing groups. She and her chief executive, John Drew, worked harmoniously and effectively together. Her board carried a range of disciplines and facilitated the necessary relationships with the police, magistracy, charities and others. I very much hope that the board of the Institute for Apprenticeships might take a similar approach to this.

The YJB’s independence, associated with its expertise and continuity of existence and experience over time, allowed it to challenge the Government in a constructive way. The result was the improved welfare of children and very significant savings to the taxpayer, with 2,000 fewer children incarcerated in very expensive settings each year. I hope the Institute for Apprenticeships may emulate that model, and I strongly support the call of the noble Lord, Lord Baker, for the institute to —occasionally, on the most important matters—have a policy role, and perhaps sometimes challenge government.

I have spoken for too long so I shall move to my conclusion. I welcome the Bill warmly, especially its establishment of the renewed institute. I wish it a speedy journey to the statute book, and I am grateful to the Government for introducing it. It will be so important to many of our young people, perhaps particularly to the most disadvantaged. I hope the resources will be allocated to make the institute a great success.