Artificial Intelligence: Regulation

Earl of Clancarty Excerpts

Monday 10th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I completely agree with my noble friend that the aim of AI should be to increase the opportunity for those things that humans can do, and that includes, of course, human-to-human interaction. It is a very important point to consider as this is rolled out, including across the NHS. On automated decision-making, we have been clear that there needs to be human involvement in terms of somebody who knows what they are doing having the opportunity to review a decision and to alter it if necessary.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords—

[Lord Ranger of Northwood (Con)]

My Lords—

[Captain of the King’s Bodyguard of the Yeomen of the Guard and Deputy Chief Whip (Baroness Wheeler) (Lab)]

It is the turn of the Cross Benches.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, the Government will have heard clearly enough by now—consultation or no consultation—that the creative industries want, and indeed require, an opt-in on the use of their own data. Will the Government simply listen and do this?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

We are clearly in the middle of a consultation. It is due to read out on 25 February. We are accumulating evidence both on how this would work and on the technologies necessary to make it work. It would be inappropriate to jump to a conclusion before we hear all that.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Earl of Clancarty Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freyberg (CB)]

My Lords, as one of the supporters of these amendments, I support the amendment so expertly moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron. I declare my interest as someone with a long-standing background in the visual arts and as an artist member of DACS, the Design and Artists Copyright Society.

I thought it would be helpful to highlight and focus on just one element of the noble Baroness’s speech, specifically the issue of transparency. Here, there is a theme developing throughout the House on this issue. One of the biggest obstacles to ensuring fair pay for creators is that AI companies have not been transparent about what works. They have been used for training AI models. Tech companies have rebuffed transparency measures because they say that this will reveal trade secrets. While I understand that business need, it cannot come at the expense of creators. There is a way in which to make transparency measures work for both business and creators, giving access to creator representatives about the use of their work on a confidential basis to facilitate copyright licensing.

This is, after all, what data rights have done for millions of people, giving them the agency to know when their data has been used. It is entirely reasonable and possible for transparency measures to be upheld and properly enforced. Therefore, considering the significance of this issue, I should be very grateful if the Minister will confirm that transparency measures proposed in the copyright and AI consultation will not be conditional on a reservation rights system.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, I rise briefly in support of my noble friend Lady Kidron’s important amendments. I declare an interest as a visual artist.

I want to pick up on the language that Rachel Reeves used in conversation with Laura Kuenssberg in her Sunday programme, when she talked about getting the balance right. It needs to be emphasised that it is not a question of balance between the tech companies and the creative industries but a question about the use of data, and the consideration of the origin of that data should be central to a Bill about access to data. That is critical. It is perhaps ironic that at the heart of this there is a void, which is the lack of data about data, as my noble friend Lord Colville showed clearly in his speech. The creative industries themselves successfully use AI. As Paul McCartney pointed out in the same Laura Kuenssberg programme, in his case he did so by actively seeking and obtaining permission for the use of data, as everyone should. These amendments are wholly reasonable and do what the creative industries are asking for. If the Government do not accept them, I shall certainly vote for them.

[Baroness Harding of Winscombe (Con)]

My Lords, I also support these amendments so brilliantly introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron. As a just-finishing member of the Communication and Digital Committee, I, too, associate myself with everything that our departing chair has just said so ably.

I am a lover of the book Why Nations Fail, written by two Nobel laureates. It charts how countries succeed and fail in adopting technology. There are two important lessons in that book. The first is that one must not turn one’s back on the technology. As we consider this very difficult issue, it is important to say that those of us in favour of these amendments are not trying to be the German boatman sinking the first steamboat, the Ottoman Empire turning its back on the printing press or the hand knitters objecting to knitting machines in Elizabethan times. We embrace AI. It will transform society for the good. That is the first important point.

The second lesson that Why Nations Fail teaches us is that, even as one embraces technology, the rule of law, property rights and giving people certainty over what they create and own are one of the other essential ingredients to success in harnessing the benefits of technology. That is why this issue matters so much. I, too, rewrote my brief remarks overnight on the back of the DeepSeek launch yesterday. I was struck by the panic among those in Silicon Valley, who thought, “Oh, my God. Is it possible that the Chinese have stolen open AI’s IP in order to create a better product?” Gosh, has Silicon Valley for a moment begun to feel what creative copyright owners have been feeling for several years? Actually, the valley is learning that certainty of copyright is an important part of driving growth in an adoption of technology.

Another interesting thing happens when you ask DeepSeek what happened in Tiananmen Square in 1989. It will not tell you, so it is clear that these supposed black boxes can be quite specific about what they include and exclude. That gives me confidence, as a non-technologist, that if we give the technology companies the challenge of creating simple mechanisms for copyright owners, they will jolly well do it, because they can definitely do it when they want to exclude content from models today.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Earl of Clancarty Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Lords Chamber

For my part, I thank the Minister. I also thank DACS, the Authors’ Licensing and Collecting Society, Directors UK, BECs and Picsel, which helped brief and get this proposal this far. This move has tremendous potential and could help unlock further funding for cultural industries. I beg to move.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, I added my name to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, and I, too, thank the Minister for the constructive meeting we had about the smart fund. While the creative industries are hugely important to this country, as was made clear in an earlier debate, artists’ earnings have suffered a real battering. As the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, said, the Authors’ Licensing and Collecting Society reported that authors earning all their income from writing decreased from 40% in 2006 to 19% in 2022, and performers and visual artists have comparable concerns about their earnings. The smart fund would provide a useful additional—I emphasise “additional”—means of funding in terms of fair recompense for creators.

The smart fund would be managed by established copyright societies, which have a track record of fair payment to creators, regulated by the Collective Management of Copyright (EU Directive) Regulations 2016. So that infrastructure, to a great extent, already exists. European schemes successfully provide royalties to UK rights holders. However, as acknowledged by the Government, this is under threat due to Brexit and alignment with such schemes would be extremely helpful.

I understand that discussions between DACS, the IPO and the Government have now opened up, and these discussions need to include DCMS. I say to the Minister that it would be helpful if Chris Bryant were made aware of what is said in this debate. This scheme could be introduced at little or no cost, which would be a win-win for everybody. Finally, I thank DACS and the ALCS for their briefings for this debate.

[Lord Freyberg (CB)]

I support the amendment, to which I have attached my name, along with the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, and the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty. I declare my interest as a member of DACS, the Design and Artists Copyright Society, and I, too, thank the Minister for meeting us prior to this debate.

Today’s digital landscape presents unique and pressing challenges for visual artists that we can no longer ignore. A 2022 YouGov survey commissioned by DACS uncovered a revealing paradox in our digital culture. While 75% of people regularly access cultural content at least three times a week, with 63% downloading it for free, an overwhelming 72% of the same respondents actively support compensating artists for digital sharing of their work. These figures paint a stark picture of the disconnect between the public’s consumption habits and their ethical convictions about fair compensation.

The Netherlands offers a compelling blueprint for change through DACS’ partner organisation Pictoright. Its innovative private copying scheme has successfully adapted to modern consumption habits while protecting artists’ interests. Consider a common scenario in museums: visitors now routinely photograph artworks instead of purchasing traditional postcards. Under Pictoright’s system, artists receive fair compensation for these digital captures, demonstrating that we can embrace the convenience of digital access without sacrificing creators’ right to earn from their work. This proven model shows that the tension between accessibility and fair compensation is not insurmountable.

The smart fund offers a similar balanced solution for the UK. This approach would protect our cultural ecosystem while serving the interests of creators, platforms and the public alike. I hope the Government will look favourably upon this scheme.