Infrastructure Bill [HL]
Debate between Earl of Caithness and Lord Judd(10 years, 1 month ago)
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The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I rise to oppose these amendments. I understand the principle behind them but, as my noble friend Lord Jenkin has reminded us, we are talking about something that is going to happen well below the surface. Having taken that into account, and while I agree with him that the amendment is in the wrong place, I also think that the principle of the amendment is quite important. However, what the noble Baroness has totally failed to do, and what the noble Lord, Lord Judd, has failed to do, is to explain why the present system of controls is not adequate.
I do not class myself as an environmentalist; I class myself much more as a countryman. I have a much broader range of interest than an environmentalist would have. The house that I used to own very recently up in Caithness was right beside an SSSI, and on that SSSI there wintered whooper swans and lots of geese and ducks. Around us there are now eight wind turbine farms. This is a huge area—an important one for nature—but the argument was looked at for every single one of those turbines. More recently, a planning application was made for four wind turbines to be sited much closer to the SSSI. My house was perhaps one of the nearest that was going to be affected by that and I lodged my objection on the grounds of nature and what effect the four wind turbines—which are considerably bigger than anything we are talking about in the fracking process and would be at a higher level for much longer—might have on the flight path of geese and swans.
The planning process worked perfectly and the decision was turned down. It has gone to appeal and I do not yet know what the result of that is, but my point is that the existing procedures are there now to protect such sites as these. I used the existing procedures and the planners looked at the existing procedures and agreed with all of us that had objected to these four wind turbines. I believe that what we have got in place is sufficient and we do not need any more.
Energy Bill
Debate between Earl of Caithness and Lord Judd
Lord Judd
My Lords, after the slight wobble with my Front Bench a moment ago, I am very glad to find myself 300% on board with them. I think that the amendments are absolutely right; I hope that they press them hard and that the Minister will find the opportunity to respond positively.
I always get a bit worried about what is happening with climate change in the sense that I am never quite sure that the principles with which I grew up still apply, but if the prevailing wind in Britain is still south-westerly, I live 12 miles north-east of Sellafield so I obviously take these arguments very seriously indeed. I am in favour of the next generation of nuclear energy: there is no argument about that, and obviously we in Cumbria will play our part in one way or another. That is given, but this is highly dangerous, lethal engineering of which we are speaking and it seems to me that we cannot have anything but the highest standards. I was very glad to find myself sympathising with a great deal of what the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, was saying, but I could not quite buy his total argument that very, very, very safe was perhaps too much. I think that the developments have to be as safe as they can be.
As we go into this new generation of construction we have heard quite explicitly from the Government—it has been repeated tonight—that we have not got the necessary expertise. This is a very hazardous development. I think that we need some very specific, concrete plans from the Government for bringing the preparation of our own engineering capacity up to date and I urge my own colleagues in opposition to take this seriously too. I do not like the prospect of our being dependent upon foreign expertise in the area of safety: I do not think that it is in any way an ideal situation.
The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, made the point about, “What if?”. I do not think that one can ask too many such questions when we are going into this very important new development. The basic issue is that we have an engineering deficit in terms of our own capabilities and we are putting ourselves into the hands of foreign engineers. Everyone will know that I am an internationalist second to none, but it seems to me that we need to be very clear about how we are going to generate the expertise in this country and very fast indeed.
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I am slightly wary of the amendment including the environment in the duties of the ONR. The only reason for that is that I think that it confuses the issue. My noble friend Lord Jenkin was absolutely right: the environment should be with the Environment Agency and design should be with the ONR. If we give the ONR the environment as well, I think that there will be more confusion than light and that would be an unhappy situation.
The noble Lord, Lord Judd, talked about the importance of having our own people on the safety and security standards. Have we not blown it, from being world leaders to having to rely on overseas firms? Not that I am against that, but to have lost the world lead that we had is one of the great tragedies of the past 50 years. I am particularly sad that the fast breeder reactor at Dounreay, just down the road from my home, is not flourishing but is being decommissioned.
One of the reasons why we lost our world lead is that we did not take public opinion with us. This is a crucial issue and Amendment 78A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, is perhaps more relevant in that regard. When the ONR and the Environment Agency look at these plans they have to be able to say that this has the seal of approval under the highest standards and quality that are right for Britain. If that does not happen, we will lose the support of public opinion again. It will be back to not just square one but minus five on the scale. That would be a sadness.
The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, reminded us that there are different designs. That is a concern and I wish that we would stick to one design in the competition. If you can replicate that design, you are going to lower costs. My noble friend Lord Jenkin referred to my noble friend Lord Ridley’s article of not so long ago in the Times. One of his arguments was that we should have a number of smaller nuclear plants, all identical. You could then set the safety standards right at the beginning, replicate the plants and have in-house expertise. Although I am a great proponent of and believer in competition, there is an argument here for saying that, having reached this stage, we ought to stick with one design and replicate it because that will help lower costs and help us get the relevant expertise into this area. If you have to have one set of expertise for what you are building at Hinckley, another for Anglesey and another for elsewhere, that might stretch us too far. I would therefore welcome anything that my noble friend can say on that.