Landmines and Cluster Munitions

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Thursday 3rd April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, it is an honour to follow the noble Lord, Lord Dubs. We have debated this issue before—18 years ago. I have to say that, in the 25 years I have known the noble Lord, he does not seem to have aged at all. He is still just as effective.

According to your Lordships’ Library, there are only two people in this Parliament who have both operational overseas military experience and operational overseas aid experience—the other one is Alex Ballinger MP.

In 2006, I was the only Back Bencher who counselled caution about the noble Lord’s Bill, and my counsel on the issue has not changed. Some may think that the military advice from myself—and, more importantly, from the noble and gallant Lord who will speak shortly—takes no account of the suffering caused by these munitions and is heartless. Nothing could be further from the truth.

In 1995, I was running an NGO in Rwanda. Every time I passed a hospital in Kigali, I saw young Rwandan soldiers with either one or both lower limbs missing. The blood was often still seeping through their bandages. These images are still with me now, just as strongly as the fatalities and other life-threatening emergencies I have had to deal with. Obviously, these soldiers were victims of landmines.

However, my counsel is to support the Policy Exchange paper and listen very carefully to the noble and gallant Lord.

Finally, the Minister will have to make even more really difficult decisions—and quite soon, because of the six-month rule.

Ukraine

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Tuesday 25th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We are working very hard on the Chelsea Football Club issue. It is quite difficult legally, but my noble friend is right to remind us about it and we are working on it at pace. I hear what he says about development spending and I would expect him to say nothing else. This is not a decision that anyone has taken lightly or glibly; it is a decision that had to be taken, because we needed to act quickly in this situation. We must go after Russian assets as well, but we needed to take this decision today to make sure that we have the investment in defence to provide the stability and security that we all need.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords—

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Leong) (Lab)]

May we hear from the Greens first?

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

Of course.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I thank the noble Lord. First, I wish to add the Green Party voice to the widespread expressions of solidarity with Ukraine as a nation and the Ukrainian people. We are having this discussion in the shadow of the US lining up with Russia, Iran and North Korea. As the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, said, it is a wake-up call for us all; I agree with him. Does the Minister agree with me that we need to work with a wide range of other states—European states, obviously, but states around the world that are constructive, co-operative and reliable—and that that demands diplomacy, official development assistance, other soft power arrangements and tackling human security issues such as the climate chaos, food insecurity and cyber issues? By taking money from the aid budget and putting it into defence, are the Government not simply robbing Peter to pay Paul? A more secure and more stable world is better for the Ukrainians and obviously better for us. We do, after all, have an integrated review of security, defence, development and foreign policy. Do we not have to look at the world that way?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble Baroness is not wrong. Obviously, it would be great to be able to do all the things that she describes everywhere that we would like to do them, but we have to be honest and realistic. At this moment, we had to make a decision to invest more in defence for the reasons that we all understand. It is a trade-off. This is not a decision with no consequence or that we are entirely pleased to be making, but one that I am proud that we have made. It is a clear choice. It will keep the world and our citizens safer. That is the right thing for this Government to have done.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Craig of Radley (CB)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Part of the defence review will examine exactly that question. What has become clear as this conflict has progressed is that part of the battle is about defence production and capability, so our decisions on spending today will enable us to support Ukraine more securely into the future.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that many of us on these Benches are deeply appreciative of the action taken by the Prime Minister? He has had to make unbelievably difficult decisions, but the problem is that he will have to make even more difficult decisions in the future.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

That is undoubtedly true, but I believe that he is the right person to be in that particular role at this particular time, because making difficult decisions is his job and what he is good at. I think he made a good decision today, and I have every confidence that he will continue in that way.