Finance Bill

Debate between Damian Hinds and James Murray

Committee of the whole House
Wednesday 11th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Damian Hinds]

In principle, what is the distinction between full-time private schooling and private tuition, from the point of view of what it is right to tax? Will he guarantee that no tax will be put on private tuition?

[James Murray]

If the right hon. Gentleman is referring to the comments I just made in response to the shadow Minister’s remarks, teaching English as a foreign language and higher education are exempt from the provisions of the Bill.

[Damian Hinds]

No, I mean families who send their child once or twice a week for an hour for academic study or something extra-curricular. Why should that be tax exempt, when if it is done for all the hours in the school week, it is not?

[James Murray]

In designing the Bill and making sure that it is clear, we decided to focus on those schools that provide full-time education. Following feedback during the consultation on the Bill, we decided to clarify some of the treatments, such as for nurseries, which I mentioned earlier, to ensure that they are treated appropriately. If they are fully stand-alone nurseries, they are not covered. In the original drafting of the legislation, we referred to nurseries that wholly comprise children below the compulsory school age. We changed that to wholly or almost wholly to ensure that having, for example, one pupil over compulsory school age would not trip a nursery into being covered.

[Damian Hinds]

rose—

[James Murray]

I am going to make some progress, because I will come to the right hon. Gentleman’s point in a moment, and I want to mention the points made by other hon. Members in the debate.

We heard from the hon. Members for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) and for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney). Yet again from the Liberal Democrat Front Bench, we see a party that is happy to support our extra investment in education for all children, but that cannot bring itself to support the measures that we put in place to help pay for that investment in education.

--- Later in debate ---

[James Murray]

The right hon. Gentleman is tempting me into hypotheticals and into trying to give advice to a school that does not yet exist—I will hold back from that, because I think the principles of our Bill are very clear on what VAT at the standard rate is applied to and what can be made exempt, in line with the existing rules on VAT.

We heard several times from the right hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds). I assure him that the Government costing has, of course, been fully scrutinised and certified by the Office for Budget Responsibility. He also spoke about capital funding. Obviously, pupil numbers fluctuate for a number of reasons. The Government have already announced more than £700 million to support local authorities over this academic year and the next to provide places in new schools and expand existing schools. I did note, however, that in response to an intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr Brash), the right hon. Gentleman seemed implicitly to admit to his Government’s failure to improve high-needs education in the state sector, which is precisely why our measures today are so important.

[Damian Hinds]

First, the Minister knows I said no such thing. I spoke about the additional investment that had gone into the high-needs budget under the previous Government, particularly since 2019, and said that there was more to do.

Since I am on my feet, can I ask him to expand on what he just said about capital? What he has just spoken about is capital for places that are already planned, but what if a lot more children present in some places? Has he budgeted for that capital? Does he guarantee that whatever capital goes to the DFE will be on top of the existing capital budget?

[James Murray]

As I said to the right hon. Gentleman, pupil numbers in schools fluctuate regularly for a number of reasons, and the Department for Education, and indeed the devolved Governments, already work with local authorities to identify pressures and take action where necessary. As I said in my earlier remarks to him, the Government already provide capital funding through the basic need grant to support local authorities in England to provide school places, and the Government have already announced £700 million over this academic year and the next, which can be used to provide places in new schools and to expand existing places.

Finally, the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Dr Mullan) raised the motivation behind our policy, which other Opposition Members also spoke to. Let me be clear on this: our decision to fix the public finances to fund public services, including education, means that difficult decisions have to be taken. Our choice to end the VAT exemption for private school fees has been a difficult but necessary decision that will secure additional funding, which will help to deliver on our commitments to improve education for all.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Damian Hinds and James Murray

Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)]

The single most important factor in raising living standards, driving income equality and improving children’s life chances is having a job. Why is the Chancellor disregarding that fundamental truth, with tax policies that will actively harm employment, particularly youth employment?

[James Murray]

If we look at the OBR forecasts for this Parliament, employment will increase from 33.1 million to 34.3 million. The right hon. Gentleman talks about youth employment. I suggest that he read our “Get Britain Working” White Paper, which sets out in detail what we will do to help get young people, and people suffering from ill health, back into work.

National Insurance Contributions (Secondary Class 1 Contributions) Bill

Debate between Damian Hinds and James Murray

2nd reading
Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Commons Chamber

[James Murray]

We are protecting public services by providing relief directly to Departments and other public sector employers. Third parties, private organisations, or those who have a contract with the public sector are dealt with differently and they should approach their local council, or whoever is sponsoring them, to talk about their funding arrangements. I might draw the hon. Lady’s attention to the fact that local government financing is increasing by 3.2% next year as a result of decisions that this Government have taken. I expect she would probably support that increase in funding, but sadly she does not have the guts to support what we need to do to raise the money in the first place.

[Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)]

On the £22.6 billion for the NHS, or the figure just mentioned for local government, have the Minister or his officials calculated what the numbers would be, net of the national insurance cost? Those bodies— the national health service and local government—carry on with exactly the same services as before, but now face extra bills for national insurance contributions. Have they done the maths?

Independent Schools: VAT and Business Rates Exemptions

Debate between Damian Hinds and James Murray

Tuesday 8th October 2024 Westminster Hall

[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (James Murray)]

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate with you in the Chair, Dame Caroline. I start by congratulating the hon. Member for Bromsgrove (Bradley Thomas) on securing this debate, and thanking all hon. Members for their contributions. I have listened carefully and, although I do not have much time, I will attempt to address as many of the points raised as possible.

Every member of the Government cares deeply about education, and we are committed to breaking down barriers to opportunity. We are determined to fulfil the aspirations of every parent in our country to get the best education for their children. We are committed to doing so by improving state schools, and by making sure that every child has access to high-quality education.

We will start to make that happen by expanding early years childcare for all, by opening 3,000 new nurseries across England. We will recruit 6,500 new teachers, alongside improving teacher and headteacher training. We will roll out breakfast clubs to all primary schools, so that no child starts class too hungry to learn.

Those improvements to the state education system will begin our work to make sure that every parent’s aspiration for their child can be fulfilled. We want to get on with those important changes right away, and to do so, they must be paid for.

[Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)]

Will the Minister give way?

[James Murray]

I will make some progress first. That is why, to help fund those improvements to our state schools, we have made the tough but necessary decision to end tax breaks for private schools. At the July statement, the Government announced that as of 1 January 2025, all education services and vocational training provided by a private school in the UK for a charge will be subject to VAT at the standard rate of 20%. Any fees paid from the date of the 29 July statement, relating to the term starting in January 2025 onwards, will be subject to VAT. As hon. Members know, the Government also announced that private schools in England with charitable status would lose their eligibility for business rates charitable rate relief from April 2025, subject to parliamentary passage of the legislation.

Those changes were set out in a technical note published online, alongside draft VAT legislation, which formed a technical consultation. As part of that consultation, the Government, at both official and ministerial level, engaged with a broad range of stakeholders, including the devolved Governments, to make sure that we understand the impact of the policy in each nation of the UK.

We have listened carefully to the points people have raised with us. We recognise that, while this policy will raise revenue to help support improvements in the state education sector, it may lead to increased costs for some parents and carers whose children are in the private education system. Let me be clear that while private schools will now be required to charge VAT on the education services and vocational training they provide, we expect most private schools will be able to absorb a significant proportion of this new VAT charge to keep fee increases affordable for most parents. They will be able to make efficiencies and recover the VAT they incur on the things they buy.

--- Later in debate ---

[James Murray]

I do not have much time and I need to address the other points that hon. Members have made in this debate. Importantly, a January 2025 start date means that schools and parents will have had five months to prepare for the VAT change. HMRC is ready to ensure that schools are supported in delivering this change. To respond to the shadow Minister’s comment, HMRC will put in place a number of measures to ensure that all private schools can be registered ahead of 1 January 2025, including publishing bespoke guidance on gov.uk ahead of 30 October, updating registration systems and putting additional resource in place to help process applications.

Ahead of the policy being implemented, the Government have carefully the considered the impact the changes will have on pupils and their families across both the state and private sectors, as well their impact on state and private schools. The Government’s costings of this policy are currently being scrutinised by the independent Office for Budget Responsibility. The Chancellor will confirm our approach to the measures at Budget, where we will set out our assessment of the expected impacts of the change in the normal way.

We recognise, as some hon. Members have raised, the changes may lead to some pupils moving into the state education sector. However, we believe that the number of pupils who may switch schools as a result of the changes will represent a very small proportion of overall pupil numbers in the state sector and such switches will take place over several years. We are confident that the state sector will be able to accommodate any additional pupils.

[Damian Hinds]

Will the Minister give way?

[James Murray]

I have only a few moments left to address a number of points, so I will make some progress. Several hon. Members in their contributions today also raised their concern about the impact of the policy on pupils in private schools with special educational needs. We have carefully considered that element of the policy. Our proposed approach makes sure that pupils will not be impacted where they have acute additional needs and an education, health and care plan—in England, or its equivalent in other nations—specifies that those can be met only in a private school. In such cases, where a pupil’s needs can be met only in a private school, local authorities will fund their places and will be able to reclaim VAT. Similarly, on business rates, the Government are developing an approach to address the potential impact of the changes in cases where private school provision has been specified for pupils through an EHCP. More widely, as a Government, we are committed to transforming the system for supporting children and young people with SEND in all schools. We need to deliver better outcomes in a financially sustainable way.

I close by again thanking all hon. Members for taking part in this debate. In our consultation about the technical detail of this policy, we have been engaging widely and in depth, and of course the views of MPs are an important part of that. As I said earlier, it has been a tough but necessary decision to end tax breaks for private schools. We believe it is the right decision and one we need to implement as soon as possible to help raise the funding we need to deliver our priorities for state education in our country. We are determined to improve the education that is available to all, because that is how we will ensure that the aspiration of every parent to get the best possible education for their children can be fulfilled.