Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Bill [HL]

Debate between Countess of Mar and Earl Attlee

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 17th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, may I help the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, in his question about the rules of debate? If he were to make a point that I had not understood, I could ask him to clarify his point and he would then be allowed to get up a second time to do that, just briefly.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, I listened carefully to what the noble Lords opposite said and there is very little that I take issue with. They made very good points indeed. But my position is that we are sending Her Majesty’s Government in to negotiate the Brexit deal. The last thing that we want to do is unnecessarily to tie the hands of our negotiators and perhaps find out at the last moment that that hand-tying exercise has compromised our negotiating position. I sympathise with the points that noble Lords made, but I do not have sympathy with the amendments and I hope that my noble friend will advise the House not to accept them.

Children and Families Bill

Debate between Countess of Mar and Earl Attlee

Monday 4th November 2013 Grand Committee

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, and other noble Lords who have either moved or spoken to amendments concerning education, health and care plans. I welcome the opportunity that these amendments give to discuss the EHC plan, as it is a vital part of our reforms. For the first time, it will provide a single plan across the whole nought-to-25 age range, and will be focused on how education, health and care services will work together with families and young people to secure improved outcomes for children and young people.

Turning first to Amendment 144, I share the concern of the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, to ensure that family support is included in an EHC plan. The EHC assessment process will consider the needs of the child or young person across education, health and care, including the circumstances of the family where there are social care needs for someone under the age of 18. For example, if, based on family circumstances, social care provision is required under Section 17 of the Children Act 1989 to meet the child’s special educational needs, it must be specified in the plan.

The existing duties will continue to mean that children and young people receive the assessment they require for their needs, supported by the new duties, in Clauses 25 and 26, for local authorities and the health service to integrate and jointly commission services for children and young people with SEN, and by chapters 4 and 7 of the draft code of practice, which focus on multi-agency working to produce a joined-up EHC plan.

I turn to Amendment 147. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, is right to want to ensure that educational psychologists are involved in decisions about EHC plans for young people aged over 18. Doing so will assist local authorities in making evidence-based decisions on whether remaining in education will be the best option for individual young people and whether they continue to need special educational provision.

This is why we have already made it clear in Regulation 6(1) of the draft assessment and plan regulations that educational psychologists, along with other relevant professionals, must be consulted when local authorities are carrying out an assessment for an education, health and care plan for any child or young person, including for young people aged over 18. Further detail on that is set out in section 7.7 of the code of practice. The noble Baroness raised quite a few detailed points, and I think that it would be better if my noble friend Lady Northover wrote to her on those. She asked about the training of educational psychologists. The Government carried out a review of training in 2011 and, as a result, has put the arrangements for their training on to a secure basis, including central funding for the National College for Teaching and Leadership.

I fully understand the intention of my noble friend Lord Lingfield through Amendment 147B. It is vital that EHC plans provide consistent, clear and specific information on outcomes and provision. Draft assessment and plan Regulations 11 and 12 and chapter 7 of the draft code of practice set out detailed requirements and expectations about the preparation and content of EHC plans to ensure consistency, including that provision should be specific, detailed and quantified. In addition, Section 3.3 of the code provides details on the information, advice and support that must be provided, including trained independent supporters where appropriate.

My noble friend commented on the format of the plans. I repeat the commitment of the Minister for Children and Families to protect existing rights and protections. That certainly includes being specific about the provision to be made. However, I am not convinced that a standard format is itself a right or protection. It is better to leave flexibility to design plans around the needs of parents, children and young people.

I do not believe that it is helpful to have prescription in the form of a standard template. We have left flexibility for local areas to design EHC plans best to meet local needs. To ensure consistency, we have included in section 7.9 of the draft code of practice a list of the key information that every EHC plan must include in distinct sections, including arrangements for monitoring progress. Having skimmed it a few hours ago, I have to say that it is comprehensive. We have also been working closely with pathfinders to develop and publish example EHC plans.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister said that he was against having a statutory form to satisfy local needs. I thought that we were talking about children’s needs.

[Earl Attlee]

We are talking about children’s needs, and local authorities will need to ensure that their template and the way that they do it suits the needs of their children. What we do not need is central government dictating exactly what the template will look like.

Government Amendments 148 and 149 enable regulations to make provision about amending and disclosing education, health and care plans. Equivalent provisions currently exist in paragraphs 2A(5) and 7 of Schedule 27 to the Education Act 1996. The amendments also require that any amendment to the plan applies to Clause 33, which requires that children and young people with a plan be educated in mainstream provision other than in specified circumstances.

Having the ability to make amendments to plans will ensure that local authorities will retain the flexibility to make minor amendments to keep plans up to date without the need for a full review or reassessment—for example, when a particular outcome in a plan has been achieved. Assessment and plan draft Regulations 26 and 27 set out how we would propose to use the powers on amendment, including requiring that local authorities consult fully with the parent or young person.

Regarding the regulation-making power and disclosing EHC plans, our proposed new regulations are in assessment and plan draft Regulation 17, which will be laid following consultation, subject to noble Lords’ approval of these amendments. The regulations ensure that sensitive information in EHC plans must be protected and can be disclosed only with the child’s or parent’s or young person’s consent except in specific circumstances, such as to share with schools and colleges.

Transport: Bus Services

Debate between Countess of Mar and Earl Attlee

Monday 20th May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am a little disappointed. I thought that the noble Lord would have given me a much better run for my money. I accept that there has to be a 20% cut in the bus service operators grant. It is painful. My honourable friend Mr Norman Baker would have liked not to have done it—I am sure he would have fought hard to avoid it—but the best way of reducing the budget is to make small cuts everywhere, and we have had to make a small cut in the bus service operators grant. However, the effect on the bus service mileage has not been as much as one might expect.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, talking of small cuts, our local village has a rather intermittent bus service, but they use quite large buses on the route. The buses are mainly empty. Would it be possible to use minibuses, which are cheaper to maintain, do not take up so much of the road and do not wreck the roads quite so much, instead of expensive single-decker buses?

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Countess makes a good point, but it is of course up to the operator to select the most suitable bus for its operations. It is a purely operational matter.

Roads: New and Young Drivers

Debate between Countess of Mar and Earl Attlee

Monday 18th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, does the noble Earl agree that it is very hard to legislate for the exuberance of youths, especially when egged on by other exuberant youths, and that, even with a green plate on the back of their cars, they will test the boundaries of the law as hard as they can? I am not advocating that they should ignore the law but we have to face the facts. We were all young once and did silly things.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, experience from Sweden shows that a longer period of learner driving supervision can reduce the risk of accidents later. It is one of the things that we are looking at and we hope that it will address some of the behavioural issues.

Civil Aviation Bill

Debate between Countess of Mar and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 7th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, I note that in the preamble to subsection (1), it says that the CAA,

“must publish, or arrange for the publication”.

There is no reason why it should not arrange for the publication of these figures by the airlines themselves, as part of the contract that it has with the airlines. I do not fly myself as I have been banned from flying—not because I drink too much or anything like that but for medical reasons—but I am very conscious of the amount of publicity that is given and the number of complaints there are about the lack of clarity and transparency over airline fares. This is a very valuable amendment.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for the explanation of the problem. I fear that I will have to repeat my comments about Clause 83, which is widely drawn and gives the CAA a new and important statutory role in promoting better public information about the aviation industry’s performance. It imposes a duty on the CAA to either publish, or arrange for the aviation sector to publish, consumer information and advice that it considers appropriate to help people compare aviation prices and services.

The noble Countess, Lady Mar, picked up on the point about the CAA arranging for the aviation sector to publish. It may well be that it knows that information is being published or it can encourage someone to publish it and therefore it does not need to publish it itself; it may choose to put a link on its website. In answer to my noble friend Lord Lucas, I was not aware that the CAA was doing all this great work to help us compare ticket prices, both real and imaginary. One of the benefits of our debate is that some people will, I hope, become more aware of the excellent work that the CAA does. I hope this Bill will make it even easier for the travelling public to compare what they will actually have to pay.

The judgment of what is appropriate should be a matter for the regulator. We should not be tying the regulator’s hands, because in time we will get this particular problem, say of payment surcharges, licked and then there might be another problem. If we tie the hands of the regulator and say that it has to concentrate on payment surcharges, but in future the problem is something else, we will have made a mistake. We should leave the regulator with the flexibility. Unfortunately, the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, seeks to remove that discretion from the regulator. He is right to test the policy but I do not think we should remove that discretion.

I want to address the specific mention of two aspects of the price of air transport services: the full costs of air travel, and the application of payment surcharges as they are already being addressed by the Government and the regulator. On the full costs of travel, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, consumers are already protected throughout the EU by EU regulation 1008/2008—sometimes referred to as the “ticket transparency” regulation. This requires airlines to display prices inclusive of all unavoidable and foreseeable taxes, fees and charges at all times. It also requires any optional services, such as checked baggage or priority boarding, to be offered on an opt-in basis only, and for the prices for these optional extras to be clearly and unambiguously displayed at the start of the booking process. In addition to displaying fully inclusive prices, the regulation also requires a breakdown of the price into the fare and any taxes, charges, surcharges and fees where these are added to the fare. These services should also be clearly and unambiguously displayed at the start of the booking process. The purpose of these requirements is to ensure that consumers are able to compare the prices of flights across a number of airlines, and to ensure that they select only the optional extras that they want.

The CAA has been working with airlines to ensure compliance with this requirement and considers that the airlines it worked with are now compliant with Article 23 of the regulation and that consumers are able to compare the prices of flights effectively, ensuring that they are able to choose flights that best meet their needs.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, referred to the three noble Lords who contributed to the previous debate and support his amendment. I do not claim that we have the problem licked yet, but I do say that we are making progress and that with this Bill we will continue to make better progress.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lord, are there any penalties for airlines that contravene the regulation?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I suspect that there are sanctions but I would prefer to write to the noble Countess and other noble Lords to give the full details. I believe that we will all find the answer to the noble Countess’s question to be very interesting.

Secondly, on payment surcharges, I share consumers’ concerns about the high level of payments surcharges applied by some companies and the fact that often people are not aware of the level of these charges until they are almost at the end of the booking process. This makes it difficult to compare prices and to shop around for a good deal. Noble Lords will recall the debate initiated a while ago by the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, on this point—a very useful debate, I thought.

It is not right that a business should try to hide the true costs of its services by implying that its prices are made up of elements beyond its control when they are not. Your Lordships will be aware that consumers are already protected against misleading pricing under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. The CAA has been able to enforce the principal obligations imposed by Article 23 through these regulations. In addition, the Government have publicly consulted on whether there should be early implementation of the payment surcharges provision of the new European consumer rights directive ahead of its deadline for introduction into the UK in 2014. This is important to aviation consumers because some businesses add a charge to the price of goods or services when the consumer chooses to pay by a particular method, for example by credit card or debit card. These additional charges are known as payment surcharges.

The BIS consultation set out the Government’s proposal for early implementation of a provision of the consumer rights directive. This will put in place legislation to ban businesses from imposing excessive payment surcharges on consumers. Businesses will remain able to add a charge only so far as it covers the actual costs of processing any particular form of payment. The consultation has sought views on the timing of the implementation of this legislation and how best to define the scope and application of the provision. Consultation on this early action closed on 15 October and BIS is now considering the next steps. The responses to the consultation will inform BIS guidance to businesses on how to set its fees in compliance with the directive.

I hope it is clear from what I have said that the intent of this amendment is already implicit in the primary duty of the CAA and that there are actions in hand and effective mechanisms already in place to secure the intended result. Given this, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

Your Lordships may recall that, during Grand Committee consideration of the Civil Aviation Bill, we debated amendments relating to the efficiency of the CAA. In responding to the Committee, I undertook to continue to reflect on the matter and to consider what further reassurances could be given on Report. That thorough consideration has led to Amendment 62. We have concluded from our discussions with the aviation industry, and from the debates here and in the other place, that the key concerns that had to be addressed were the need for transparency of the CAA’s efficiency measures and for further accountability for them. That was what I teased the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, about on the previous amendment.

In responding to Amendment 61, I described the four elements of Amendment 62. The Secretary of State is already required under Section 21(3) of the Civil Aviation Act 1982 to lay before each House of Parliament a copy of every report made to him in pursuance of that section. If Amendment 62 is accepted, in future the annual report laid in each House will include an efficiency statement made by the CAA and the auditor’s assessment of that efficiency statement. Taken together, these provisions provide for better transparency of the CAA’s efficiency measures and better accountability for those efficiency measures, which is an end I am sure most noble Lords would desire. I therefore urge your Lordships to accept Amendment 62. I beg to move.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, I am pleased to see the amendment because it gives me a chance to ask the Minister about my airline pilots. He will now be aware that a great many airline pilots believe that they are ill because of fumes in the cockpit. I am pleased to see that his department is now going to answer letters from airline pilots slightly more kindly than they did in the summer.

One of the duties and functions of the Civil Aviation Authority is the enforcement of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 through the working time regulations. I have ascertained—not from his department but from the Department for Work and Pensions through the Health and Safety Executive—that no measures have been taken by the Civil Aviation Authority to enforce any health and safety at work contraventions in the time that it has had this power. I find that almost unbelievable because we know of several cases where airline pilots have come off their aeroplane and had to be taken to hospital.

Will the Minister confirm that the Civil Aviation Authority has the duty to enforce the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 for people on board an aeroplane, whether it is on the ground in the airport or in flight? Will the CAA make a statement about the imposition of its functions in this requirement under the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974?

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it may be helpful to the House if I respond to the noble Countess’s point about cabin air quality. First, I have full confidence in the advice that officials have given me, and everything that they have done has been in accordance with my intent. However, I agree that it was unfortunate that official letters from officials were not personally addressed to the addressees. I accept that point.

The noble Countess and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, will recognise that they have raised issues slightly wide of the amendment. However, I will write to them. I have already answered Questions for Written Answer on the health and safety issue, but I will gladly repeat that information in a letter to the noble Countess.

[The Countess of Mar]

Before the noble Earl sits down, can he confirm that it is a function of the Civil Aviation Authority to enforce the terms of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I refer the noble Countess to the Questions for Written Answer that I have answered.

Railways: London Midland Rail Franchise

Debate between Countess of Mar and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 31st October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, first, it is important to understand that the TOC has a target of continuously improving performance. Secondly, we need to understand that the penalties for breaching the contractual obligations are actually quite serious; so under the system of measuring performance it is possible for the TOC to have a few bad weeks and not be in breach of contract, but if it continues in that way, it will, under the terms of the franchise, eventually end up in breach of contract and be vulnerable to serious consequences.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, does the noble Earl agree that it is not just the salary that matters with a job; job satisfaction involves all sorts of other factors such as being respected by your employer, being given decent working hours, being able to expect to work on certain days and not others, and always having something to anticipate that is good? This, I am afraid, is where London Midland has fallen down, and is why it is not retaining its drivers. Can anything be done to encourage it to be good to its workforce?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Countess is absolutely right. What actually encourages London Midland to sort this problem out are the provisions of the franchise that contain the necessary penalties.

Civil Aviation Bill

Debate between Countess of Mar and Earl Attlee

Monday 9th July 2012 Grand Committee

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, for introducing this interesting, probing amendment, because it gives me the opportunity to say something about how innovative the aviation sector in this country already is and the CAA’s role as the regulator. My noble friend Lord Rotherwick spoke about innovation in navigational aids. I look forward to debating his Amendment 73, which will deal with these issues, but his comments were valuable nevertheless. He indirectly illustrated why the CAA should concentrate on regulation.

My view is that market forces should be allowed to drive innovation in industry and the regulator should be responsive to it. This is how things have worked so far between the aviation sector and the CAA. Indeed, just how innovative our aviation sector is is a measure of how well this arrangement has worked.

Let us consider one aspect of the aviation sector, the aerospace industry. Our aerospace industry is the world’s largest outside the USA, with a 17% share of the global market. Its annual turnover is more than £20 billion, and it directly employs more than 100,000 people, supporting a total of 230,000 jobs across the UK economy. Its workforce is highly skilled: 36% of its employees have university degrees or equivalent.

The aviation travel industry is equally innovative. In my opening speech at Second Reading, I paid tribute to this fact, saying:

“In 2010 … UK airports served nearly 400 international destinations. That level of activity is possible because over the past 30 years the aviation industry has changed to meet the needs of the customer. The emergence of low-cost carriers is one example of how the industry has innovated and diversified. There has also been an increase in the number of people travelling by air in this country, from 59 million passengers in 1982 to 211 million in 2010”.—[Official Report, 13/6/12; col. 1364.]

The CAA has its own international consultancy, Civil Aviation Authority International, or CAAi, which is a wholly owned subsidiary of the CAA. It is a leading, globally recognised aviation consultancy company that delivers and promotes best practice in aviation governance and education. CAAi provides technical advisory services across a range of aviation-related activities, environmental consulting, professional training, aviation examination services and certification against internationally recognised quality management standards. CAAi’s work contributes to enhancing safety standards worldwide.

The CAA is also quick to respond to innovation in the aviation industry. I have come across two examples in the past few days. The noble Lord, Lord Sugar, has raised with me the issue of PDAs in the cockpit. The CAA is assisting many UK commercial air transport operators to gain approval for the use of electronic flight bags. An electronic flight bag approval will allow an operator to replace many of its cockpit paper-based processes with an electronic solution such as a laptop or tablet device or with an aircraft manufacturer’s own certificated system. The CAA is working with EASA and ICAO to standardise and simplify the requirements for operational approval of electronic flight bags.

The second example is the CAA’s work on its future airspace strategy, alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham. As the noble Lord reminded the Committee, I offered some aviation briefing sessions to Peers shortly before Second Reading. As part of those, the CAA’s Director of Airspace Policy, Mark Swan, gave a presentation on its future airspace strategy. Through the strategy the CAA is modernising how we use our airspace in this country with the aim of achieving a,

“safe, efficient airspace, that has the capacity to meet reasonable demand, balances the needs of all users and mitigates the impact of aviation on the environment”.

Mark Swan explained that this aim depends on the ability to take advantage of technological developments. For example, new communications, navigation and surveillance improve situational awareness of users and controllers; increased navigational accuracy enables closer-spaced routes; and the amount of noise experienced by communities will be reduced as aircraft fly their routes more accurately and consistently. Operators will be able to free route in the upper airspace along the most fuel-efficient track. This is important. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, touched on emissions and the need to tackle them with technology and innovation. The future airspace strategy is an example of how the CAA can facilitate innovation in the civil aviation industry without the need for a new duty.

The noble Lord, Lord Soley, spoke previously about using advanced biofuels in the aviation sector, as did the noble Lord, Lord Davies, today. Today the noble Lord, Lord Soley, talked about quieter aircraft. He will recall that the quota system of regulating noise at Heathrow airport strongly encourages quieter aircraft. Indeed, under the quota system some aircraft cannot fly at all at night. While there are some obvious barriers, the Government believe that sustainable biofuels have a role to play in reducing carbon emissions from transport, particularly in sectors where there are limited alternatives to fossil fuels, such as aviation. The Committee on Climate Change has carried out studies on the potential for biofuels to reduce emissions from UK aviation in the long term. Its latest estimate is that biofuels could supply 10% of jet fuel demand by 2050, suggesting the impact that future innovation might have.

I said that it is my view that market forces, rather than regulators, drive innovation. I believe that the examples I have provided together show that the industry and the CAA have got the balance right.

[The Countess of Mar]

Does the noble Earl agree that in some cases market forces can have a derogatory effect on the industry? For example, it can lead to cutting corners. I think particularly of my own interest, the cutting of corners in reporting incidents on aeroplanes. Because an aeroplane has to be grounded, it means time out of action and competition within the airline industry is so great that it leads to reluctance on the part of employees to report incidents when they should. This leads to a backwards step as far as innovation is concerned, because, if they did report these things, maybe innovation would lead to improvements in facilities. I hope that the noble Earl sees what I mean.

[Earl Attlee]

I entirely agree with the noble Countess that market forces can have an undesirable effect. That is why we need a highly skilled and competent regulator, such as the CAA, to ensure that those undesirable effects of market forces are eliminated as far as possible.

I would like to quote from the Government publication Principles For Economic Regulation:

“The Government will not seek to add objectives, responsibilities or duties to regulators’ remits without detailed consideration of the impact of the addition on the overall framework, and consideration of cross-sector impacts and even then only when it is clear that the addition is the optimal way to achieve the outcome sought”.

I am not convinced that the addition of an innovation duty is,

“the optimal way to achieve the outcome sought”.

For the reasons I have identified, I believe that we are already in a good place with regard to innovation in the aviation industry. There is a risk that giving the CAA an innovation duty would oblige the CAA to meddle in the market and may even restrict the way in which the aviation industry would be able to innovate. This has been an interesting short debate. I can well understand why the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, has tabled his amendment, but I hope that he will withdraw it at the appropriate point.

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[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, that is precisely what they are doing. The people I have contact with are ex-BALPA pilots and they are now complaining. If the Minister was to go to a meeting of the GCAQE, he would see a lot of ex-BALPA pilots.

[Earl Attlee]

What I find odd is that the noble Countess has been raising the issue for some time, but no pilot or any member of cabin crew apart from a very few who are in contact with her has ever approached me on the issue. I have received nothing about it.

The noble Countess also asked me about medical data. The swab test research undertaken by the Institute of Occupational Medicine in Edinburgh found concentrations of organophosphate compounds consistent with previous measurements. I remind the Committee that the main research study published by Cranfield University in May last year found no evidence of pollutants occurring in cabin air at levels exceeding available health and safety standards and guidelines. Levels observed in flights that formed part of the study were comparable to those.

[The Countess of Mar]

I remind the noble Earl that in none of those aircraft was there a fume event, but they still found TCP in the aircraft.

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Countess has made that point before. As a mere parliamentarian, I have to rely on the academic research being conducted in an appropriate manner and subject to peer review. All the published research studies have now been formally referred to the Committee on Toxicity which is, as I said, the independent adviser to the Government. When I first came into the House in 1992, I was rapidly aware of the noble Countess’s work regarding organophosphates and sheep dips.

In answer to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, I am sure that the law is being properly applied. The noble Lord asked: how frequent are fume events? Incidence of fume events is extremely low. The most recent figures show that in 2010, there were 207 contaminated air events reported to the CAA mandatory reporting scheme out of 1.12 million passenger and cargo flights by UK carriers. That is 0.018% or less than 1 in 5,000.

[The Countess of Mar]

Does the noble Earl agree that the Science and Technology Committee found severe underreporting of fume events?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am not sure what would drive underreporting of fume events.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, talked about his role in this matter and his discussions with the noble Countess some time ago. As I said, the UK has undertaken research where no other country has done so.

[The Countess of Mar]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Earl, but Australia and the United States have done so.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am afraid we will have to have a difference of opinion on that matter. In view of what I have said, I hope that the noble Countess will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[The Countess of Mar]

Will the Minister kindly address my question about the ability of the CAA to regulate through COSHH? I repeat: the CAA has no authority to enforce the COSHH regulations—this is from the CAA—and it is therefore inappropriate for the CAA to investigate any breaches of the COSHH regulations.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, in my answer I explained to the Committee that I am certain there is no gap in responsibilities between the HSE and the CAA.

[The Countess of Mar]

But the HSE has the ability to enforce COSHH regulations. The CAA has no ability to enforce COSHH regulations, on its own admission, and it is important that it should be able to.

[Earl Attlee]

Yes, my Lords, but as I explained to the Committee there is a memorandum of understanding, which the noble Countess referred to, to ensure that there is no gap between enforcement by the CAA and the HSE.

[The Countess of Mar]

I thank the Minister for his response but I find that really inadequate. The facts are there: the Health and Safety Executive has the ability to apply COSHH but the CAA, on its own admission, has not that ability. It is important because engine oils and their effects would come under COSHH. I thank the Minister for addressing my other points and I am also very grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Wigley, Lord Rotherwick, Lord Empey and Lord Davies of Oldham, for their contributions and kind comments, which I found quite embarrassing.

This is an important subject. I highlighted problems with sheep dip and I was told at first that it was perfectly safe. I was proved right on that occasion and I hope that noble Lords will listen to me because there are serious effects. What concerns me perhaps as much as anything is that passengers are never told when there has been a fume event. You might get a lady who is newly pregnant—perhaps she does not know that she is— and whose baby, when it arrives, has either a cognitive problem or a deformity. We know that foetal exposure to tiny amounts of organophosphates can be quite serious.

We really need to be looking at this more thoroughly. I know that when the Cranfield work was done, it was agreed that pilots would not be looked at until it could be established whether these toxic chemicals were in fact arising in airplanes. That work has been done and there has been a lot of criticism of it. I am not too happy about it, personally, because I have seen how such research can be twisted in order to provide the answer required and I mentioned intellectual corruption at Second Reading. I am not going to let go of this. I shall pursue it even beyond this Bill. I realise that it is difficult but the noble Earl will hear more of it. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Civil Aviation Bill

Debate between Countess of Mar and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 13th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord’s comments are accurate but the words I have just repeated are very carefully thought out. I must move on.

These measures are consistent with the Government’s commitment to runway alternation at Heathrow and the trial—that is, the operational freedoms—will not increase the number of flights at the airport, which remains capped at current levels. I can assure my noble friend Lord Patten that the Bill does not interfere with the aviation policy framework. The two issues are separate; future developments will not be inhibited.

I welcome the comments on the environment—particularly from the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, and many other noble Lords. The issue was also debated at some length in another place. I have listened very carefully to the points raised today. I agree that further consideration should be given to the clarity in the Bill regarding the role of the CAA in allowing licence holders to recover the costs of taking reasonable measures to mitigate the adverse environmental effects of airports in carrying out its functions. Therefore, I look forward to further discussions in Committee. It will, however, be important to get the correct balance between conflicting interests. This will be challenging and we must get it right.

Many noble Lords raised the issue of the NAO auditing the CAA. I am still not persuaded that there are convincing reasons to believe that NAO scrutiny would deliver a better result than the current and planned mechanisms by which the CAA’s functions are audited and scrutinised. In his review of the CAA, Sir Joseph Pilling considered this and concurred that he saw no need for the NAO to be involved directly. Ministers in the previous Government subsequently accepted this recommendation. I have yet to see convincing reasons why they were wrong and nothing has happened since to suggest that this advice needs to be reviewed.

I am not convinced that NAO scrutiny would be more effective than the current system which includes the following elements: the Secretary of State appoints the CAA’s auditors; the Secretary of State places the CAA’s accounts before Parliament; the Secretary of State approves the CAA’s borrowing and sets its required rate of return on capital; the Secretary of State appoints the CAA’s chair and non-executive board members; the CAA’s audit committee is made up of non-executive members who are appointed by the Secretary of State; and the CAA consults on its fees and will be required to do so under the changes set out in Clause 100. In addition, over the period 2001 to 2011, the CAA reduced its operating costs in real terms by 20%. I note that some noble Lords suggested additional functions or capability that the CAA should acquire.

Following discussion in another place on 25 April in the Bill Committee, the Minister, my right honourable friend Theresa Villiers, announced a new non-legislative measure to increase the transparency of the CAA’s moves towards greater efficiency. On an annual basis, the Department for Transport issues a report direction and an accounts direction to the CAA specifying the matters that should be addressed in the authority’s annual report and accounts. From 2013 onwards, the Secretary of State will strengthen the scrutiny of the CAA by including in the annual directions a requirement to include an efficiency statement in the annual report.

I am grateful for the contribution from my noble friend Lord Trefgarne about general aviation. The primary duty will be capable of capturing general aviation interests where they are aligned with the interests of users of air transport services. Broadly speaking, users of transport services will be passengers and freight owners using air services to and from the UK—including future users. In so far as owners of small aircraft fall within this, they will be covered. It can also be noted that only around 0.1% of flights at regulated airports comprise general aviation.

My noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding raised concern that an airline right of appeal touching on an airport’s financial arrangements would seriously inhibit the airport’s ability to raise finances. The noble Lord, Lord Soley, and my noble friend Lord Bradshaw raised similar concerns. The Government remain of the opinion that there are good reasons to include financial resilience licence conditions, with appropriate derogations where these cut across existing financing. We also remain of the opinion that the broad rights of appeal in the Bill provide an effective means of improving the accountability of key regulatory decisions and enable the interest of both airport operators and materially affected airlines to be taken into account in the licence process.

We believe that it is correct that the right of appeal extends to financial resilience licence conditions. Any dispute as to whether a derogation would cause a breach of the existing financial arrangements is most likely to arise from questions of law over the true construction of a loan agreement and/or licence condition. These could ultimately be resolved through judicial review and, in the mean time, an airport operator could seek an injunction to preserve the status quo. Markets should therefore be reassured that the risk of existing creditor protection in an airport operator’s funding structure being unintentionally removed, triggering an event of default, is extremely unlikely. Investors are experienced in managing regulatory uncertainty in their normal course of lending to the regulated sector and we would expect them to manage this situation as well. However, I know how strongly BAA feels about the issue and I will be meeting with it shortly.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, raised issues about staff in the event of the transfer of security functions from the Department for Transport to the CAA. It is important to ensure that the CAA has the skills and resources to undertake its new security functions. The Government are working to a plan that would aim for the CAA to take on the aviation security regulation function from the spring of 2014. The Government hope that existing staff will want to continue working in the security environment, but if any of them decide to move elsewhere, there will be enough time to manage this.

The noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, raised the issue of aviation safety standards. The UK is a signatory to the Chicago convention and is required by the ICAO to have in place a state safety programme to achieve an acceptable level of safety in civil aviation. The Civil Aviation Bill currently before Parliament does not deal with safety issues as there is already sufficient European and international legislation in place which addresses them.

The noble Countess, Lady Mar, raised the issue of organophosphates. This is a separate matter and one of research rather than legislation. I am pleased to be able to tell the House that the last piece of research that your Lordships asked the Department for Transport to commission, under successive Governments, into allegations regarding airplane cabin air quality, has now been completed and published. All the published research studies have now been formally referred to the Committee on Toxicity, the independent adviser to the Government on matters concerning the toxicity of chemicals, for it to consider.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his comments. Does he agree that there is a serious problem in that the Civil Aviation Authority is responsible for people in an aeroplane both when it is on the ground and when it is in flight, but it does not impose health and safety regulations, as would be the case with the Health and Safety Executive? It looks after people on an airport site who are not in aeroplanes, but does not consider the COSHH regulations. Numerous Questions for Written Answer have been tabled on this issue, but no one takes responsibility for the passengers, pilots or aircrew.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Countess will recognise that these are complex matters. I will write to her on all the points she raised.

The noble Lord, Lord Soley, asked if the Bill will cover military airports and whether they could be exempted under Clause 77. In certain circumstances, military airports can be exempted from economic regulation under Chapter 1 and Clause 77.

My noble friend Lord Bradshaw was concerned about the market power test set out in Clause 6. His specific concern was that unless an airport operator has market power, it should not be regulated. I would like to reassure my noble friend that, under the Bill, where an airport does not and is unlikely to acquire substantial market power, it will not be made subject to economic regulation. It is a specific requirement of the market power test in Clause 6.

The noble Lord, Lord Rogan, talked about the aviation needs of Northern Ireland. The Government and the Civil Aviation Authority have no role in the slot allocation process. EC regulations established a mechanism for the allocation of slots at congested airports. This has been transposed into UK law under the Airports Slot Allocation Regulations 2006, which came into effect on 1 January 2007. Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, Manchester and London City airports are all designated by the Secretary of State for Transport as co-ordinated airports with their slot allocations managed by Airport Coordination Limited, an independent company which has powers under the UK regulations to monitor the conformity of air carriers’ operations with the slots allocated to them, and to take enforcement action against those airlines that do not operate according to the regulations, in particular by introducing sanctions for slot misuse. The ring-fencing of slots at Heathrow to protect regional services, other than where a public service obligation has been implemented, would be incompatible with EU law. The UK has highlighted the issue of regional connectivity with the European Commission in the context of the current reform of the EU slot regulations and is exploring the scope for including measures to help secure the ongoing provision of air services between UK regions and congested London airports. Beginning this summer, Commission working groups will examine the slot proposals, and I commend the work of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, who has been extremely active and effective in Brussels.

The noble Lords, Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Davies of Stamford, commented on the UK Border Force. It is not covered by the Civil Aviation Bill and is accountable to Ministers and Parliament as a Home Office agency. Queues at airports are caused by many factors, including the border force receiving incorrect flight manifests and early or late airplane arrivals, resulting in bunching. The Minister for Immigration and Citizenship is reviewing what additional data may be published by the Home Office and shared with port operators. Meanwhile, the UK Border Force has responded to recent problems with queues in a number of ways. It is tackling short-term peaks with a pool of trained staff, and working with airports and airlines to ensure that they provide more accurate passenger manifests and flight schedules so that the force can flexibly deploy staff at the right times and in the right places. It is creating a new central control room for the UK Border Force at Heathrow that will use mobile teams for rapid deployment, and it will implement new rostering and shift patterns. It is also working with Gatwick and Heathrow airports to improve passenger flows using more specific measures such as e-gates and other biometric checks.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, asked why there is no obligation on the CAA to require airports to develop passenger welfare plans. The indicative licence prepared by the CAA included, at the request of the Department for Transport, an example condition that would strengthen an airport’s resilience where appropriate. The proposals contained in Condition 7 require the licence holder to operate the airport efficiently and to use its “best endeavours” to minimise any detriment to passengers arising from disruption. It would also require the airport to draw up, consult on and gain the CAA’s approval for an annual resilience plan setting out how it will secure compliance with its obligations under the condition. The licence holder would be obliged to comply with the commitments it has made in its resilience plan.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Chesterton, mentioned the issue of the difference in the quality of the air between first and economy class. The air is the same throughout an aircraft. First class seats and economy class seats are usually separated by a curtain, which is not an airtight medium.

Olympic Games 2012: Courier Industry

Debate between Countess of Mar and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 28th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I was impressed enough with the TfL officials to think that future meetings would not be necessary on my part.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, could the noble Earl impress upon the people organising the transport that some people cannot use buses or the underground because they are disabled and they use taxis instead and that these are a very important component of transport?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Countess makes an important point. The blue badge scheme has been provided for and there will be dedicated parking places for blue badge users. However, they will have to be booked in advance.

Asylum Seekers: Medical Treatment

Debate between Countess of Mar and Earl Attlee

Monday 14th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, I speak as a former member of the Immigration Appeal Tribunal. Does the noble Earl agree that there is a large amount of case law relating to the returning of asylum seekers who are sick to their own countries, and that on the whole the tribunal abides by this case law?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I did not catch the noble Countess’s last point.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Countess of Mar]

There is a large amount of case law that, on the whole, the tribunal abides by in reaching its assessments.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, yes.

Roads: Charging

Debate between Countess of Mar and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 1st February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we have learnt from the experience of the London congestion charging scheme, but the technology is not completely appropriate for what we are planning. When VOSA patrols the strategic route network, it will use automatic number plate reading technology to scan all commercial vehicles to ensure that they have a valid vignette.

[The Countess of Mar]

Can the noble Earl explain what he means by a vignette?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, in the past a vignette was a piece of paper that was attached to the windscreen, but we are now considering a virtual vignette, which is what I mean by an electronic vignette. It is not necessarily a piece of paper on the windscreen, but it is a means for UK and foreign hauliers to pay to use UK roads.