Crime and Policing Bill

Baroness Walmsley Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 27th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Meston (CB)]

My Lords, to avoid any later confusion or doubt, I should explain that, on behalf of the unavoidably absent noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, I will be speaking to her Amendment 284 on the mandatory reporting duty. It is in a slightly different context, as it is not in the context of grooming gangs. I will not develop it at this stage but wait until that group is reached.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, Amendment 247B, from the noble Baroness, Lady Maclean of Redditch, seeks to advance and pre-empt the start of the work of the independent commission on grooming gangs. I would say to the noble Baroness that this process must be done properly rather than speedily, so that we can learn lessons for the future from what has happened.

To save the Minister the trouble, I will read to the noble Baroness a few morsels from the Government’s Statement, repeated here on 4 September, with which I agree:

“I know that everyone in the House and beyond wants to see the inquiry begin its work at the earliest opportunity. Colleagues will know that that requires the appointment of a chair and the agreement of terms of reference … Meaningful engagement with victims and survivors is paramount … this process must be done properly and thoroughly … three chairs were appointed and subsequently withdrew, from July 2014 onwards, prior to the eventual appointment of Professor Alexis Jay in 2016”


as the chair of IICSA—that shows how difficult it can be to get the right person—

“In line with the Inquiries Act 2025, the appointed chair will play a central role in shaping the commission’s terms of reference. These will be published and subject to consultation with stakeholders, including victims and survivors … The inquiry will begin by identifying priority areas for review … Where appropriate, the inquiry will issue recommendations at both local and national levels”.


Finally, the Minister said,

“we are determined to ensure that every survivor of grooming gangs gets the support and justice they deserve; that every perpetrator is put behind bars; that every case, historic or current, has been properly investigated; and that every person or institution who looked the other way is held accountable, as that is a stain on our society that should be finally removed for good”.—[Official Report, Commons, 2/9/25; col. 162-63]

I agree with every word of that, and I hope all noble Lords do.

The Minister repeated some of those points only today, at Oral Questions. I wonder what it is that the noble Baroness does not agree with. I hope I can assume that we all have the same objective of obtaining justice for victims, and learning valuable lessons and doing it right, rather than soon.

Amendments 271B and 271C relate to the Sexual Offences Act 2003. I worked for many weeks on that Act, and I think it was comprehensive and carefully drafted in laying out the offences. I believe that there is—I have taken very senior legal advice on this—a danger in describing offences in too much minute detail. I hope the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen of Elie, will agree that it can make it more difficult to secure a conviction where a conviction should be secured, because additional elements need to be proved beyond reasonable doubt. That could open defences which are not overall justified. I also cannot see how changing terminology would add to justice, as the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, suggests.

On Amendments 271D and 271E, from the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, I refer him to other parts of the Statement repeated on 4 September. I am sure the Minister will assure him in response that the Government have outlined all the work that has already been started much earlier this year to investigate historical child abuse investigation failings. I will leave it to the Minister to do that.

I welcome the concern of the noble Baroness, Lady Cash, about the system of mandatory reporting that we are offered in the Bill as it stands; it is simply not good enough, and we will come to a very wide debate about that in group 8. I hope that she will then add her support to amendments to improve that system tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, as well as my colleagues, my noble friends Lady Featherstone and Lord Clement-Jones, and me.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I agree with every word of the noble Lord, Lord Meston, and of my noble friend Lady Featherstone. I hope they will forgive me if I say no more about all that, because, if I do not catch my train tonight, I will have to sleep on the street. I will speak to Amendments 280A in the name of my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones and Amendments 282 and 285 in his name and mine.

Amendment 280A is straightforward in its intent. It seeks to fully implement recommendation 13 of IICSA’s final report. The current Clause 72 introduces a duty on adults engaged in relevant activity to notify police or local authorities when

“they are given reason to suspect that a child sex offence may have been committed”.

The Government propose non-criminal sanctions, such as referral to professional regulators or the DBS. We on these Benches maintain that this approach is insufficient. IICSA was clear: a failure to comply with the duty must be a criminal offence. Amendment 280A would insert proposed new subsections (10A) and (10B) into Clause 72, which would explicitly provide that:

“A person who fails to fulfil the duty under subsection (1) commits an offence”,


and that the person

“is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale”.

This criminal sanction is essential because relying solely on professional sanctions creates institutional loopholes. Professional sanctions apply to only a fraction of the mandated reporters and cannot effectively address failings in settings where professional regulation is absent, such as certain religious settings, where, as we have heard, many grievous failings have occurred. Nor do they cover volunteers in schools or other settings. Furthermore, criminalising non-compliance would align us with international best practice in countries such as France and Australia.

Amendment 280 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, is similar to this one, except that it offers some mitigations that the court could consider. Whether this offers a loophole or a reasonable consideration for the courts is a reasonable discussion point.

Amendment 285 addresses the second vital component of IICSA’s recommendation 13. Incorporating the duty to report when a person recognises the indicators of child sexual abuse, the amendment would expand the trigger for the duty to report beyond direct disclosure by a child or perpetrator, or witnessing child sexual abuse, all of which is vanishingly rare, to include circumstances where a person

“witnesses a child displaying sexualised, sexually harmful or other behaviour, physical signs of abuse or consequences of sexual abuse”.

It has to be remembered that only one in three victims of CSA ever discloses what happened, and often it is many years later.

The fact is that, if the Bill passes as it is without amendment, it will undoubtedly fail in its stated objective. The Government themselves recognise this, as witnessed by the figures in the impact assessment. It says that the number of extra anticipated reports of CSA each year for England and Wales under the existing terms of the Bill is only 310, which is an average of 7.9 extra reports for each of the 43 police forces. The total number of cases estimated to be proceeded against in England is 26—with 15 cases in the Crown Court and nine in the magistrates’ court—and only 11 of those would see the award of custodial sentences. The total estimated increase in CSA referrals to local authority-designated officers is 2% per annum.

It would therefore be nonsense to suggest that widening the scope of the duty to report CSA to something like that which exists in countries that have high-standard mandatory reporting systems that have been functioning well for years, as this amendment proposes, would overwhelm our system. It would not. Neither would it result in some cases being hidden in the mass of reports, as some have suggested. On the other hand, widening the scope, as this and other amendments seek to do, would uncover a lot of evil and save many children from terrible lifelong harm, which has a cost to public services. Not doing so would perpetuate the culture of cover-up that led to the IICSA inquiry in the first place.

However, recognising that assessing such indicators can be subjective, Amendment 285 would maintain proportionality, as recommended by IICSA, by ensuring that failure to comply with the duty based solely on those indicators is not a criminal offence, but compliance should be done by any conscientious professional. This careful balance would ensure that staff and volunteers are encouraged to report any sign of potential harm without the fear of criminal prosecution based on subjective observation. This is crucial to fostering a reporting culture that prioritises the immediate safety and protection of the child, which is what we all want to see. It is vital to remember that the investigation of the report of, or reasonable suspicion of, child sexual abuse is not for the reporter to do; it is for the experts to investigate and the courts to decide—but they cannot do that unless they get the report in the first place.

Amendment 282 is designed to include in the reporting duty a comprehensive range of people who care for children, as defined in Sections 21, 22 and 22A of the Sexual Offences Act 2003. To ensure that no relevant person is left out, these sections ensure the inclusion in the duty to report the management of settings where some kind of care is given to children, which is one of the gaping holes in the current wording of the Bill. With that, having just reaffirmed my support for the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and those of my noble friend Lady Featherstone, I will finish.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

I rise to speak to my Amendment 286A, which proposes to fill gaps in Clause 79 so we can hold accountable all those who go out of their way to conceal the horrendous crime of child sexual abuse. This amendment is supported by multiple child protection organisations, including the NSPCC, Barnardo’s, the Centre of Expertise on Child Sexual Abuse and the Lucy Faithfull Foundation. I particularly thank Gina Rees from the NSPCC, who has advised me.

Obviously, it can never be acceptable for anyone to turn a blind eye to abuse. Yet across the seven year-long investigation, the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse exposed countless instances where those whose organisations had a responsibility to protect children from harm not only failed to report child sexual abuse but took purposeful actions that actively sought to cover it up. These acts of intentionally concealing child sexual abuse are separate from, and go beyond, just failing to make a report, something which the Government’s mandatory reporting duty proposes to address. It means choosing and acting to prioritise something else, be that community, relationships or company reputation, over the safety of a child. I think we can agree across this House that that is unacceptable.

These acts of concealment are not a thing of the past. Take, for example, this real-life contact at the NSPCC helpline for those with concerns about a child. A special educational needs professional told the NSPCC:

“I’ve seen what happens when people report any concerns, even minor ones. Management bullies you, reduces your shifts, stops giving you what you need to support the kids. You’re expected to buy everything yourself for them instead of it being provided. If you thought you were on track for a permanent job, forget it”.


Bullying, threatening job stability and removing support for the children who are meant to be protected—these are actions, along with intimidation of witnesses and destroying vital evidence, that have happened for many years and still happen, with impunity, across our society. They not only undermine efforts to increase reports of child sexual abuse; they can deny victims their right to justice and hinder their access to vital support services in order to help them begin to recover from what they have suffered. As such, it is vital that our criminal justice system be equipped with new laws to catch these bad actors.

I appreciate that the Government’s current drafting of Clause 79 aims to do this by introducing a new criminal offence of preventing or deterring someone, under the mandatory reporting duty, from making a report. While that is an important part of thwarting the cover-up of child sexual abuse, this provision does not go far enough to cover the multitude of ways that reports of abuse can be concealed and could allow many of those who intentionally conceal this crime to slip through the net. This is because Clause 79 is triggered only when the person acting to conceal abuse does so by blocking or deterring someone, under the new duty, from making a report. This would not, for example, criminalise acts that could prevent abuse being discovered by a mandated reporter in the first place, such as intimidating victims or destroying vital evidence. Indeed, if the professional I referred to in my example earlier did not fall under the new duty to report, there is a strong chance that those who try to bully and intimidate someone in respect of doing the right thing would not be prosecutable under the current offence.

This feels to me like a glaring omission that could undermine the Government’s intentions with this clause. It also does not cover preventing those who are not mandated reporters from reporting, or acts to hinder this investigation of abuse after it has been reported. That is why I call on the Government and the Minister to look again at their current proposal and ensure that it is strengthened, so that those who intentionally act to cover up child sexual abuse, including those who threaten or deter those not under the reporting duty, are caught by this offence. I therefore urge the Government to accept Amendment 286A so that Clause 79 captures all individuals who intentionally cover up child sexual abuse.

Regulated and Other Activities (Mandatory Reporting of Child Sexual Abuse) Bill [HL]

Baroness Walmsley Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 17th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I strongly support the Bill and I warmly congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, on bringing it forward. I also pay tribute to the tireless work of Tom Perry and all at Mandate Now on behalf of victims of child sexual abuse. It is clear from the IICSA report that a mandatory reporting duty is essential now.

Over the years, I have been informed by the work of Professor Ben Mathews of Queensland University of Technology in Australia. Ben is the world expert on mandatory reporting duties in legislation; he is certainly not the devil but is well across the detail. Ben has conducted analyses of different models from around the world to identify strengths and weaknesses from legal, theoretical and empirical perspectives. These inform his conclusions about optimal legislative features for a mandatory reporting duty for child sexual abuse. I base my comments today on this work.

Does the Bill before us match up to these criteria? Well, yes, most of them. First, does it adopt a sound definition of the concept of child sexual abuse, operationalised through connected operational definitions, including in associated educational materials? No, it does not, but it needs to add it in the Schedule.

Secondly, does it define a child as including all individuals under the age of 18? Yes. Thirdly, does it clearly list the designated occupational groups of reporters? Yes. Fourthly, does it specify the state of mind activating the duty? This should include “knowledge” and “suspicion on reasonable grounds”. Yes. Fifthly, does it apply to cases of suspected and known past abuse, to presently occurring abuse and to cases where the reporter suspects the abuse is likely to happen? No, only past and current acts are included.

Sixthly, does it specify what details the report must include? No. Seventhly, does it specify to whom the report must be made? Yes. Eighthly, does it specify that a report should be made immediately? No; it says as soon as practicable, which is reasonable.

Ninthly, does it clearly set out that where an expert liaison officer exists, the reporter may discuss their suspicion with that person to inform their decision about whether to report? No, but perhaps it should be put in guidance. Tenthly, does it state that a report is not required where the reporter knows a report about the same incident has already been made? Yes. Eleventhly, does it state that a report is not required where the reporter knows or believes a child is engaging with another young person in genuinely consensual sexual activity? That is not included here.

Twelfthly, does it protect the reporter’s identity? This is essential to reassure reporters of confidentiality. Yes. Thirteenthly, does it confer immunity from liability for making a report in good faith? Yes. Fourteenthly, does it prohibit reprisals against reporters? Yes.

There are five other items on the list which I will give to the Minister as I do not have time to go through them all. However, all in all, this Bill covers most of the bases and it is a very good foundation for legislation. Will the Government base their promised amendment to the Serious Crime Act on this Bill and on Ben Mathews’ checklist, which I will give him?

Child Sexual Exploitation and Abuse

Baroness Walmsley Excerpts

Wednesday 8th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend and for her persistent campaigning on this issue. It is important that we focus on the issue: how do we better protect children and survivors, how do we give them victim support and how do we prevent future criminal actions by individuals, whatever their race or ethnicity? We must also seek to prosecute individuals, whatever their race or ethnicity.

While I can make points about the review commissioned by the noble Baroness, Lady May, the seven years afterwards, the response and what has happened since then, I want to try to look forward. That means taking forward the three recommendations that we have agreed to and looking at the work we have done since July on the child sexual exploitation police task force. That was established by the last Government. We have now put some energy into the acceleration of its activity and saw a 25% increase in arrests around child sexual exploitation between July and September of last year.

There is much to do. I appreciate that history is worth looking at, and there are lessons for us all—including me, as I was a Home Office Minister a long time ago, in 2009-10. My hope is that we can use this to find common ground to tackle the issue. In doing so, let us make sure that we protect children and bring perpetrators to justice.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, when I last tried to introduce a mandatory reporting duty for child abuse, in an amendment on Report to the Serious Crime Bill, on 28 October 2014—a long time ago—the Minister at the time, the noble Lord, Lord Bates, responded by announcing the inquiry, which later became the IICSA inquiry established by the noble Baroness, Lady May, as well as a public consultation. However, he said:

“Research is inconclusive in determining whether mandatory reporting regimes help, hinder or … make no difference to child safeguarding outcomes”.—[Official Report, 28/10/14; col. 1083.]


He also said that the duty to report might “divert” services from the task of safeguarding children. Is the current Minister convinced that the research is clear that a mandatory reporting duty will help the task of protecting children, rather than hinder it? The clarity of the evidence will be very important when we come to debate the Home Secretary’s proposals, which we want to make sure go through.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The Government believe that a mandatory reporting mechanism will help the system, which is why we will introduce it.

Refugees (Family Reunion) Bill [HL]

Baroness Walmsley Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 18th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lady Hamwee on introducing this Bill, which I support, and assure the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, that I will carry on hammering the point. Since the Children Act 1989, all legislation must primarily consider the best interests of the child. This comes almost word for word from Article 3 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, to which the UK has long been a signatory.

However, this does not always underpin policy. Article 10 of the convention states that

“applications by a child or his or her parents to enter or leave a State Party for the purpose of family reunification shall be dealt with by States Parties in a positive, humane and expeditious manner”.

Current policy is not humane. Under Article 22, Governments must help refugee children separated from their parents to be reunited with them. That means they should get legal aid too. As we have heard, currently the UK is the only major European country that refuses this, and it is directly at odds with the best interests of the child.

This policy is leaving some of the most vulnerable children separated from their families at a time when they need their parents most. It puts child refugees in the care of local authorities, which, as we have heard, can ill afford to support them. This leaves parents with an impossible choice: never to see their closest family again or to embark on a dangerous journey to try to reach them. This is contrary to the Government’s own policy of reducing the incentives for people to attempt to enter the UK illegally. The Government have recognised these children as refugees, stating that it would be unsafe for them to return to their country of origin, yet, unlike adult refugees, they are denied the opportunity to be joined by their closest relatives.

Child refugees should at least be treated as equal to adult refugees under the Government’s family reunion policy. Indeed, they have more need for family reunion than any adult. The last time this was debated, the government spokesman claimed that a similar Bill would undermine government “safeguarding responsibilities”. I believe it would do the opposite. Having one or more parents with them in the UK is more likely, as long as checks about their best interests are made, to improve the safeguarding of children who are vulnerable, as we have heard, to recruitment by criminal gangs for modern slavery, sexual exploitation or illegal work.

The UK Government have argued that changing the rules would encourage parents to send their children on unsafe journeys to secure refugee status to enable families to join them. There is no evidence to support this argument. Family separation is not only not in the children’s interests, it is not in anyone’s interests.

Licensing Act 2003 (Liaison Committee Report)

Baroness Walmsley Excerpts

Wednesday 17th May 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, as with many policy areas, there are complex issues to consider when devising public policy on alcohol licensing. In devising licensing regulations, the Government must take into account the balance between the well-being of people who wish to drink alcohol in moderation in a public place and those who live nearby licensed premises, against the danger that high levels of alcohol consumption can lead to criminal activity, road accidents and domestic violence, and, indeed, costs to the health service and the police. Add to this the needs of businesses that serve alcohol as part of their legitimate business model and you have a complex picture.

It is the complexity of the decisions that need to be made at a local level that led the Select Committee to urge the Government to take action to ensure greater co-ordination between the planning and licensing functions of local authorities. This evening, this Committee has heard a passionate explanation from my noble friend Lord Foster of the reasons the committee came to that conclusion. They also recommended better training for councillors engaged in making these complex decisions so that they can adequately take all these factors into account and make decisions that are right for their local area, along with a mechanism to ensure the required co-ordination.

It is disappointing that, in the Government’s response, they appear to believe that nothing further needs to be done in this respect. Instead, we got a litany of the actions the Government are taking to provide treatment for those who abuse alcohol, with serious consequences for themselves and those around them. This is shutting the door after the horse has bolted. However, I am hearing from colleagues serving on local councils that the availability of such services has been much reduced in the last few years. The funding comes from the public health grant, which has been halved. You cannot make a loaf without flour, and the Government are expecting local authorities to do too much with too little.

Is the Minister aware that 70% of local authority funding has to be dedicated to mandatory services such as children in care, elderly people who are reliant on public funding for their care, and residential care for people with physical and learning difficulties? This means that non-mandatory services, such as drug and alcohol services and others, have had to be cut. In light of all this, what progress have the Government made on the sincere recommendation of the committee for better training of councillors and co-ordination between planning and licensing?

Although licensed premises play an important role in what is called the night-time economy and keeping town centres alive, and indeed provide a lot of jobs, particularly for young people, it is the public services that bear the costs when things go wrong. One area where things have gone wrong recently is in the behaviour of people who have been drinking to excess before boarding an aircraft. There have been a number of cases where airline staff have had to delay a flight or detain or remove a passenger to avoid not just annoyance but actual danger to other passengers. It might avoid the need for this if the sale of alcohol airside was brought within the ambit of the licensing regulations. Will the Government please reconsider their intention not to act on this?

Most licensees are responsible people and carry out their business in the interests of customers and their community, but there are some who do not. The committee recommended that any future national database of licence holders should include records of refused, suspended or revoked licences to avoid such people getting licences elsewhere unless they change their ways. Will the Government ensure this happens?

About a third of the victims of domestic violence claim that the perpetrator was under the influence of alcohol when the attack occurred. This suggests that licensees have a great responsibility to stop serving someone who has clearly had enough. I understand how difficult that is, not only to make the judgment itself but to take action and ban the person, who will undoubtedly object loudly. Is the ability of the licensee to take such difficult decisions taken into account when considering renewal of his or her licence? Is there any co-ordination between the local police, who may have to deal with offenders, and the local licensing authority? The police will know which premises are the culprits, since they will often have to deal with the consequences. Are they sufficiently well trained for this duty? On the matter of alcohol-related offending, the government response promised “a National Working Group” to reduce such offending, share good practice, trail innovative solutions and ensure that “existing licensing powers” are applied in full. Can the Minister say who sits on the working group, to whom it answers and when it will report?

As we know, there has been a large increase in the amount of alcohol bought from supermarkets—we just heard that from the noble Lord, Lord Smith—especially during the pandemic. This brings us to recommendations about the use of taxation to control excess consumption. Following years of resistance, the Government have taken welcome action on high-alcohol white cider, because of its use by alcohol abusers. However, there is more to do. I welcome the Government’s commitment to review the new alcohol duties after three years but ask the Minister what further action they plan to take—for example, by reviewing the effect of minimum unit pricing in Scotland and Wales. In doing so, will they always bear in mind the needs of those licensed businesses which serve alcohol to moderate drinkers with or without a meal? They are legitimate businesses and their profits are already under a great deal of pressure.

The temporary pavement licensing scheme is to be made permanent through the levelling-up Bill. That is all very well—we all like a drink in the open air when the weather is fine—but what do local authorities get out of this extension of the premises of commercial businesses into the pavement area which they own and have a duty to clean? Will the bars pay a fee or increased business rates for the privilege of extending premises from which they make money? Local authorities are desperate for cash; might it not be a good idea to help them out a bit here?

I support what the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, said about the danger of obstructions on the pavement to people with disabilities, particularly visually impaired people. I recently had to speak to the manager of my local Co-op, in the interests of local visually impaired people, about no less than four large free-standing advertisements on the pavement outside the shop.

I turn to access. Recently, a former colleague put a photograph on her Facebook page of her disabled husband in his wheelchair outside a new local restaurant. Unfortunately, there was no way he could get inside. She went in to ask the manager what arrangements they had made for disabled customers, and they had not made any. I got the impression that he was not too polite either. I am sure that this is not typical of managers of licensed premises and I realise that some premises might be difficult to make accessible, but they will lose customers if they do not adapt. It is quite wrong that they do not make every effort. I would like to see an access and facilities statement as a requirement in licence applications and renewals. Can the Minister say what progress has been made on the review of Part M of the building regulations regarding access if, as they say, the Licensing Act is “not the appropriate vehicle”?

Finally, the committee recommended that the late-night levy should be reviewed in consultation with the trade and the local community. It says that it is a blanket measure that may not be appropriate everywhere. When will the Government respond to this recommendation? As I understand it, they have not done so yet.

Licensed premises contribute a good deal to local economies, provide jobs and allow us all to go out, relax and enjoy ourselves—all of us, not just those with working legs. I am a great believer in a bit of joy, so I hope the Minister in responding to this debate will have inclusive joy for everyone in mind.

Women’s Safety

Baroness Walmsley Excerpts

Wednesday 8th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I know this issue has been raised in the House of Commons recently in a 10-minute rule Bill. It is certainly a matter that the Home Office has under review, and it may be something that we hear more about later.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, what are the Government doing to encourage more intelligent and public-spirited young women to join the police force? Would that not go a long way towards making women feel that when they reported sexual abuse they would have a more understanding ear at the end of the phone? It would make women feel much safer on the streets if they knew that a female police officer might be there to help them.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I entirely agree, and there is much in what the noble Baroness says. I do not, I am afraid, have the statistics to hand as to the level of women among recent recruits to the police in meeting the 20,000 target that was in the last manifesto, but I can certainly find that out and write to her.

Forensic Science and the Criminal Justice System (S&T Committee Report)

Baroness Walmsley Excerpts

Monday 26th April 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Walmsley (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I was not a member of Science and Technology Committee when this report was written, although I am now. I am really sorry I missed it, because it was clearly a fascinating and important investigation. However, I have read the report, which was up to the committee’s usual high standard of rigour and integrity, and the main impression I gained was that the forensic service in this country has become a shambles and, regrettably, has fallen a long way from its former high standard. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, called it, more politely, inadequate and dysfunctional. This is bad in itself, but it is a particular disaster given the fact that the science is moving so rapidly in new directions and the demand for the service is growing exponentially, particularly in relation to digital evidence.

High-quality forensic science is crucial for the operation of justice. It is important to the accused, both guilty and innocent; it is important to victims, both existing and potentially in future; it is important to the police, judges and advocates to enable them to do their job properly; it is important to juries who need confidence in the quality of the forensic evidence to allow them to be as sure as possible about their decisions; and it is important to the public on whose behalf the criminal justice system works. But it is clear that, for whatever reason, not usually the fault of those who work in the service, the service has let us all down over recent years and lost its former high reputation. The committee has done an excellent job in its report of getting to the bottom of what has gone wrong and proposing a comprehensive plan of what needs to be done to put it right.

Four aspects jumped out at me as I read the report. First, on leadership and resources, the committee led with this issue in its very first recommendation. I absolutely agree that the service needs strong leadership at arm’s length from government. The committee recommended a forensic science board to take the lead in strategy, organisation and regulation. The Government instead proposed a less independent alternative—a steering group of the Criminal Justice Board jointly chaired by the Home Office and Ministry of Justice. That is hardly arm’s length. Where is it? Does it exist? What has it done since the report in spring 2019? Do we have to wait another two years for action? Yes, we now have a statutory regulator, thanks to a Private Member’s Bill, but this is no use without adequate powers and resources.

The committee listed five powers in its recommendation 12, all of them needed to enable the regulator to ensure the quality of provider organisations and individuals, and the ability to force them to improve or remove them from the service as necessary. It is outrageous that some providers are currently unregulated and some so-called expert witnesses not adequately qualified. The Government did not agree with these recommendations, but I believe that a regulator needs teeth, otherwise how can he or she do the job? It is nearly 10 years since the Government promised that the regulator would have such statutory powers, a time lapse which the committee described as embarrassing. Can the Minister assure us that the Government will take appropriate action so that it is no longer embarrassed?

On resources, following the disastrous cuts to legal aid, the committee heard that the defence sometimes lacks the ability to commission its own forensic testing where the evidence is disputed and, on the prosecution side, the police need adequate resources to build their case. Some police forces use their own labs, some put the work out to private providers and some a mixture of the two. But if you are going to put a public service out to the market, you have to show private providers that there is a stable business there in which they should invest. As the committee’s evidence shows, the market is fragile and some providers may close down. The Government’s response is to reform procurement policy. This sounds to me like saying, “If we don’t like the price of butter, we can go to a different supermarket.” Can the Minister tell us what it actually means apart from an attempt to get more for less?

Secondly, it is currently unclear where accountability lies in government. I echo the question from the noble Lord, Lord Patel: can the Minister say clearly where accountability lies now? Is it with the steering group or whichever department happens to be in the chair at the time? There is also a lack of co-ordination. The committee proposed that the new FSB should work with the regulator and the proposed national institute for forensic science to ensure standards, strategy and co-ordination. Can the Minister say how the Government’s alternative structure will do that?

Thirdly, on research and forward planning, it is vital that there is a mechanism to look ahead and plan for investment in research into new forensic methods and, where appropriate, the use of artificial intelligence and automation and the practicality of how these can be integrated into the service. In the past, the development of and confidence in DNA evidence has allowed former miscarriages of justice to be corrected and unsolved crimes to be laid at the doors of the perpetrators at last. If resources are not put into the development of new forensic science, there will be more miscarriages of justice and unnecessarily unsolved crimes. Victims are always the ones to suffer for this but so does the whole of society. This is where the committee’s recommendation 21 of a national institute for forensic science within UKRI comes into the picture. Without such an expert group to do the horizon-scanning and ensure the funding for the correct areas of research, the rogues will always be way ahead of the forces for good.

That brings me to staffing. The service does not just rely on new methods but on high-quality staff. Where are the planning and resources for staff training? Recommendation 13 and others cover this. The proposed forensic science board would have the responsibility, together with the College of Policing and the Chartered Society of Forensic Sciences, to develop a strategy for the ongoing training of all forensic science practitioners, including those who provide expert evidence in court, as well as providing CPD on forensic science for practising lawyers. Given the rise in digital crime, it is essential that more staff qualified in this area are recruited. What system do the Government propose for the staff planning and training function, and why is it better than the committee’s recommendations?

Finally, on confidence, the noble Lord, Lord Patel, has outlined the delay and inadequacy of the government response. It makes me wonder whether this indicates a lack of interest on behalf of the Government or perhaps a lack of understanding of the role forensic science plays in building the confidence of the public in our criminal justice system. Does the Minister agree that a high reputation for forensic science can have a beneficial effect on the willingness of the public to co-operate with the police? It can also affect the prevalence of crime, deterring potential criminals as well as catching them. Police chiefs, in their evidence to the Committee, did not show that they have confidence in the Government’s response to the report. If they do not have confidence in the system, who can?

Children: Online Grooming

Baroness Walmsley Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I have to say to my noble and learned friend that in local authorities, particularly when local authority systems are being used, there are firewalls to prevent some types of abuse, but if a child has a smart phone with such things as Messenger or Snapchat on it, it is incredibly difficult for local authorities to keep tabs on children who are at the end of such coercive behaviour. The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley, talked about the online harms Bill next year: that is going to be crucial, because it will place a duty of care on service providers and social media platforms to actually protect vulnerable people from this sort of thing.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD) [V]]

My Lords, following up on the Minister’s reply to the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, she may be aware that industry compliance in taking down child abuse images fell by 89% in the first month of lockdown. What tools are the Government using, or threatening to use, to ensure that social media companies such as Facebook design and deliver platforms and services that put child protection front and centre?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I can guess at several of the factors, but one might be the ever-increasing use of encryption, so that not only can parents not see what their children are doing, but nor can the local authority or, actually, the internet providers themselves. This is at the heart of what the Home Secretary and Five Eyes partners are trying to discourage going forward.

Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse

Baroness Walmsley Excerpts

Monday 22nd June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the Home Secretary speaks every day to operational partners—the NCA, the police and the NPCC. It is not just that we are aware of the dangers of children being at home with their computers and not at school; significant effort has been undertaken to mitigate some of the potential for harm to children over this period. As for production of the report, that will come in due course.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD) [V]]

My Lords, on 10 September 2018, the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, promised, in response to my question about an extra seminar on mandatory reporting, that

“the Government are committed to ensuring that legislation can adequately deal with this”—[Official Report, 10/9/18; col. 2093.]

issue, and would scope it fully “during the current Parliament”. Has that scoping taken place and, if so, what was the result?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I cannot answer on behalf of my noble friend Lord Agnew but I will certainly get him to respond to the noble Baroness.

Child Sex Predators

Baroness Walmsley Excerpts

Thursday 4th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, will the Government provide the 10% of funding for the UK Safer Internet Centre currently provided by the European Union after the end of the transition phase of leaving the EU? Childnet gets 50% of its funding from the EU, so is even more vulnerable.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, efforts to combat CSA come from a number of funding sources, from the Home Office and elsewhere, and various NGOs. We will base our funding decisions on the best needs of children in this country and how to keep them safe.