High Speed 2

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Tuesday 19th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for pointing out the enormous benefits that Birmingham is currently seeing. All across the route of phase 1, there are shovels in the ground, with 350 active construction sites and 29,500 workers. The focus is on delivering high-speed rail services between London and Birmingham.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister go further in acknowledging the common-sense view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin? Will she also reflect on the fact that, so far, almost a third of the around 140-mile line between London and Birmingham is either through tunnels or on viaducts? We are spending a vast amount of money trying to please people who oppose the project and who have opposed it right from the start. Is it not about time we took a leaf out of the book of the French railways? At the time they built their high-speed line across France, they said: “When we are draining the swamp, we do not consult the frogs”?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very interesting point. It is right—and this is not only for High Speed 2 but for many major infra- structure projects—that local interests can sometimes cause the cost of projects to increase. I need only mention, for example, Chesham and Amersham, where I think there is a Liberal Democrat Member—and they are deeply behind HS2, apart from any candidate who wins a by-election. Sometimes, to please certain groups of people, additional expense must be had, and sometimes that is absolutely valid. That is the difficulty with building major infrastructure. But the planning permission that goes into it and the DCO process—or in this case the hybrid Bills—have to reach the right balance, and sometimes one has to question whether it is in the right place.

West Coast Main Line

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Tuesday 19th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am content that the Avanti contract has gone through all the relevant processes. It has been structured such that there is an initial three-year period, which I think is right, to enable Avanti to provide the investment that is clearly needed. That investment is in driver training and rolling stock. I am sure many noble Lords have noticed the upgrade in Avanti trains when they have travelled on them recently; I find them very comfortable indeed. There is an ability after three years for the Government to give three months’ notice. Within that intervening period, senior officials from the Department for Transport will meet management on a weekly basis to make sure that the recovery plan and all the elements the new management has put in place are being followed.

There are also enormous incentives for Avanti to improve—£14.3 million-worth of incentives. That is what the performance-based fee is; if Avanti does not hit its targets, it will not get that fee. It is absolutely right that that is there, it will incentivise Avanti and we will work alongside it so that it can continue to improve its performance.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, would the Minister accept that I am one passenger on Avanti trains who is completely baffled by this decision? I do not wish to rain on the noble Baroness’s parade, but when you have been at the bottom of the league table for punctuality and cancellations for as long as Avanti trains has, the only way is up. Could the Minister tell the House which other train operating companies expressed an interest in this particular franchise? Is it the case—as I suspect—that none of them did, largely because most rail managers are fed up to the back teeth with the micromanagement by her department or, even more likely, by the Treasury?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Actually, this is exactly what this contract is trying to achieve. By giving a three-year horizon for Avanti management to properly plan, it will not be necessary to micromanage Avanti. The Department for Transport will continue to support it and, as I said in my opening Answer, the net advocacy scores show that customers are supportive of Avanti. I am sorry that the noble Lord is not, but the numbers speak for themselves—and these are customers speaking and not the Department for Transport.

Great British Railways

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Wednesday 28th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape]

To ask His Majesty’s Government when they intend to bring forward legislation to create Great British Railways and progress contractual reforms for train operators.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, we will progress legislation to establish Great British Railways when parliamentary time allows. New passenger service contracts will balance the right performance incentives with simple, commercially driven targets that will ensure a central role for the private sector in delivering for customers.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, the short response to that would be to ask why it has not been done before. The current subsidy to the railway industry is about three times more in real terms than it was to the much-maligned BR in the 1990s. Legislation to bring forward an organisation that will put together the disparate but essential parts of the railway industries, such as track and train, is long promised and long overdue. The present system pleases neither passengers nor staff.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am seeking a question in that comment. I can say that the number of passenger journeys is now significantly higher than ever it was under British Rail. Between January and March 2023, there were around 400 million journeys, which is an astonishing achievement. There are so many things that we can get on with when it comes to Great British Railways—just one example being the long-term strategy for rail. We have received hundreds of responses to the consultation for that, which we will be publishing later this year.

Trains: Wifi Provision for Passengers

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Thursday 25th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I would hope that my noble friend would have got the ticket in the wallet on her phone because she would have needed it to go through the station anyway. Free wifi will remain available at stations and as I say, no decisions have been taken. We have asked the train operating companies to prepare business cases.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, if the wifi is taken off our unreliable Avanti trains, how will I be able to let the Whips’ Office know that I will be missing a three-line Whip? Is this not another example of the pettifogging interference in the railway industry by civil servants, many of whom know nothing about it but love playing trains in their spare time? Is this not yet another example of those in her department who know the price of everything and the value of nothing?

Bus Funding

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Wednesday 17th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Perhaps I might first respond to the noble Baronesses. I am sure that the noble Lord is desperate to come in; I await his question with interest.

I could have stood before your Lordships’ House today with the moon on a stick and the noble Baroness opposite would still not have been happy. The noble Baronesses have been calling for a long-term bus funding plan, and this is it. It is not in any way a cut to funding; you cannot cut emergency funding. That was emergency funding and then recovery funding; this is something different. This is more money than buses have had for a generation. It is never going to be enough—£500 million for buses is fantastic news, yet the noble Baroness could not bring herself to be even the slightest bit happy about what it will do for our bus services.

I have heard rumours of what Labour is going to do about powers for local transport authorities, but I do not really understand it, because local transport authorities already have the power to put bus services in place. I am sure that the noble Baroness knows that. Perhaps when these plans come out, they will be pretty much what we have now.

I need to explain the situation to the noble Baroness. There is £300 million in total—£160 million plus £140 million, so roughly half and half. Half will go to local transport authorities, and they will be able to decide which services to tender. They have the power; they have always had the power. Remember, a bus operator has to tell the local transport authority in a confidential period of 28 days before it notifies the traffic commissioners that it intends to take a route away. At that point, the local transport authority can put it out to tender. We have literally given them the money to do that, but the noble Baroness cannot welcome that.

I do not understand what the Labour Party is going to do or what more powers local transport authorities could possibly have, unless Labour wants to renationalise all the buses as well. Perhaps that is where the noble Baroness thinks things will end up. I look forward to hearing from the Labour Front Bench what its plans are because, at the moment, it is completely unclear. That goes to her comments about unfettered powers that bus operators have to slash routes. That is just not true. As I said, local transport authorities can tender them. If the worst comes to the worst and their enhanced partnership does not work—as the noble Baroness knows, they can get into an enhanced partnership, working with the operators and the local transport authority; there is lots of power in that relationship between the two, to flesh out what the network should look like—they can franchise, as in Manchester. It is up to them. They have the powers to do so. But again, apparently all the power sits with the bus operators. I think they would probably say that it does not.

I note what the noble Baroness says about public ownership of some of the bus companies, and the ones that are left are very good. I think Reading is very good and Brighton is very good, but of course there have been plenty that fell by the wayside because they were not very good. There has already been a massive weeding out of the wheat from the chaff when it comes to publicly owned bus operators, so I do not think that is the silver bullet either.

I turn to the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, who sounded a little bit more chipper about the funding—but, again, not wholly. If I am able to answer some of her questions, perhaps she will feel a bit more positive. The money that is going to the local transport authorities will be for places that missed out on BSIP funding the first time around or those that got very low per-capita spend. We feel that it was not quite fair, and we have more money, so they should have it. There is actually a list about where the money is going, and I will see if I can send that to all noble Lords who are speaking in today’s debate. That list will be very helpful. We have allocated 50% of the funding on tendered milage, weighted by metrics of deprivation and car ownership, and 50% on population, weighted by delivery confidence. That is how we did it. We have put in deprivation and car ownership, to make sure that it is going to places that need it most.

The noble Baroness talked about capability and capacity of local transport authorities. Again, when I was buses Minister, we focused enormously on this. We feel it is so important that they have the capability to build their own networks, which is why we gave them tens of millions of pounds of funding, specifically for developing the BSIPs. It is not the case that, if they did not have a good system and they did not have the capability and capacity, they necessarily did not get BSIP funding; we did give them the funding. There are councils that are run by other political parties to my own that choose not to spend a single penny on tendered services, and that is very disappointing.

We continue to provide capability and capacity funding to local transport authorities specifically so they can put their enhanced partnerships in place. I hope that that money and that capability and capacity funding will work together to help enhance and protect those vulnerable tendered services.

An evaluation of the £2 fare cap has been published today, so the noble Baroness might want to have a look at that. There are high levels of awareness, with seven in 10 survey respondents being aware of the scheme and one-third of them saying that they felt that the scheme was having a positive impact on their disposable income—all sorts of different things. It is too early to decide whether there is a change in patronage solely down to the fare. Obviously, you have to disaggregate other elements. Other factors may be involved as well but, again, we are keeping a really close eye on that. But, overall, I think that the Get Around for £2 scheme has been hugely positive. I am really pleased that we can talk about it and extend it for quite a long time.

I turn to the issue of zero-emission buses, which is absolutely critical. The Government remain committed to supporting the introduction of 4,000 zero-emission buses. Since February 2020, so far, an estimated 3,452 zero-emission buses have been funded across the UK. In this Parliament, we have awarded £345 million of dedicated funding for zero-emission buses in England. I am aware that the noble Baroness’s zero-emission bus award fell through because the operator was not willing to put up the amount—and that is entirely up to the operator. But that money will go back into the pot, and other operators in different parts of the country will be able to make use of that. We also understand that the award of the grant kicks off a process that necessarily has to go through public procurement rules and so on, and those things take time. It is the case that we have to award the contract, build the bus and get it on the road—so, yes, it will take some time for those particular buses to get on the road, but they are coming. That is a very positive thing, and it is also a very positive thing for our bus manufacturers.

I remain positive about zero-emission buses. I believe that the cost of the buses is falling and that, sometime soon, bus operators may actually choose zero-emission buses without government support, because we will see total cost of ownership about the same. So I think that things are moving in the right direction, and I really welcome that.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, as the former chairman of a major bus operator, I tell the Minister that any financial support for the bus industry is more than welcome. But her announcement today bears no resemblance to the promises made two Prime Ministers ago under the Bus Back Better project. The fact is that, no matter who runs the buses, the question of finance is always going to be there.

I address my remarks to my own Front Bench. There is an apparent belief that all we need to do to create a better bus service across this country is to give powers back to local authorities. Without proper finance, local authorities, which already struggle to provide the services that they have to provide now, will struggle even further.

Can I tell the Minister that the price of the average double-decker is currently around £250,000? A new electric bus costs around £400,000. The short-termism inherent in this package will not incentivise the bus industry to invest over the long term in fleets costing the sort of money that we are talking about here. Although the Minister made the best of a bad job, much of the finance that she has announced today is in fact short-term and not long-term. Without proper long-term financing, the bus industry will continue to struggle.

I hope that as somebody who helped set up what was a rather successful bus partnership between the private sector, in which I worked at the time, and the West Midlands Combined Authority I can say to the Minister, without causing any offence, that, again, finance was the key. We could get that sort of partnership and get successful bus services across the West Midlands provided that we got proper government support. So far, this package does not demonstrate proper long-term support for the bus industry. I have to say to the Minister —I repeat—that, welcome though it is, we need proper long-term planning if the bus industry is to invest properly in the vehicles of the future.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I have to remind noble Lords that this is not the only money the bus sector gets; there are many other streams that should be considered. I think there is just over £1 billion in concessions; there is the existing money, £260 million, from BSOG; and obviously there is some money in the block grant. All in all, we have to be realistic about what the bus sector is going to look like in the future. It will have to adjust to new travel patterns, but there is the combination of this new funding and the existing funding, which will stay in place, and we have committed to having conversations with the operators and local authorities about longer-term measures, which will include a reform of BSOG. I would not be surprised if that reform looked very carefully at emissions from buses. One could put that in place, although an element of BSOG is already based on zero-emission buses.

All in all, I am satisfied that the sector is getting the funding it needs, and we need to work as hard as we possibly can with the operators and local transport authorities to encourage people back to buses, including those who use concessionary fares. I believe that if we do that, if we use the capital spending from the BSIP effectively, and if we have bus lanes and bus priority in the right sorts of places to improve the passenger experience, that combination of input is really good. Sitting there and saying, “Just throw money at the problem” is not it. We have thrown money at the problem. We have carefully considered how much money it needs, and we believe that this is a good future for the bus service.

Avanti West Coast

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Thursday 23rd March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

All train operating companies face financial penalties or financial jeopardy from their performance, as all train operating companies have performance fees. When the current period comes to an end at the end of March, there will be an independent evaluation of Avanti’s performance, and performance fees will be set accordingly. Two issues really impact performance at the moment—the ongoing issues around train crew and availability, and growing concerns around infrastructure, which is why our reforms to bring track and train closer together are so vital.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that in the last quarter of 2022, Avanti achieved a historic low, with only 45% of its trains on time? Sad character that I am, I have looked back through the statistics on train travel on the west coast main line. That 45% low never happened under British Rail, the London, Midland and Scottish Railway or the London and North Western Railway. I gave up when it came to the London and Birmingham Railway in the 19th century because I was bored with my own research. Is it fair or right that, despite that historic low, taxpayers should fund dividends to shareholders and bonuses to management while those of us who travel regularly on Avanti would rather walk than catch a train?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am delighted to be able to tell the noble Lord that currently 90% of Avanti trains arrive within 15 minutes of their scheduled arrival time. That is up from 75% in early January. I am sure that noble Lords can see the trajectory. The dividend to which he refers related to a financial period to March 2021, well over two years ago now and not related to the current performance issues.

Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Wednesday 18th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

Snape.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

I do not regard that comparison as at all flattering.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I deeply apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Snape, for getting his name wrong.

This is a great opportunity to be back once again in front of your Lordships’ House to discuss trains, train fares, train ticketing and, of course, train services. I very much appreciate all noble Lords’ contributions this evening.

The regret Motion tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Snape, is linked to a statutory instrument relating to changes to penalty fares. This was laid in your Lordships’ House in October 2022 and comes into force on 23 January 2023. I will provide a little bit more context to ensure that noble Lords are aware of what this SI does. From 23 January 2023, the new penalty fare on the rail network in England will be £100 plus the price of a single fare to the passenger’s intended destination on that train. It is not the £100 alone; there is an additional amount, which will take into account the journey travelled. Another thing to understand is that the £100 penalty is reduced to £50 plus the price of the single fare if it is paid within 21 days. I hope that people will take advantage of that opportunity.

As noted, the penalty fare is currently either £20 or twice the full applicable single fare to the next station that the train calls at, whichever is greater. That sounds a bit more complicated than what we will now have, which offers great clarity to passengers. As noted, the value of the penalty fare has not changed since 2005, which is nearly 20 years ago. It was in response to growing concerns about the impact of this real-term decline in the value of the penalty fare that the Government consulted on these changes to penalty fares in March 2021. The consultation indicated that the £20 value of the penalty fare was just too low to be an effective deterrent and that it should be increased.

The change was put into place to ensure a more effective deterrent. This should reduce the cost of fare evasion from passengers travelling without a valid ticket while ensuring that honest, fare-paying passengers are not unfairly penalised. An estimated £240 million is lost annually due to fare evasion on GB railways. This change aims to reduce the burden on the taxpayer while ensuring that it is fair on the travelling public as well.

Staff who issue penalty fares are trained and authorised in the procedure and are allowed to use their discretion on whether to issue a penalty fare. This helps to mitigate the impact on those passengers whose intention was not to avoid paying but, for whatever reason, have a ticket that does not match their intended journey. The noble Lord, Lord Snape, came up with many examples where this sort of discretion would absolutely be used. Therefore, we do have the flexibility under the new penalty regime as it was under the old penalty regime. In that regard, not much has changed. We will have to put Peel to one side in this case, because it is not an absolute certainty that if one is on a train with a ticket that does not match your intended journey, you will get a penalty fare. There may be reasons why it would not be appropriate. That is fair on passengers and provides the best experience to the travelling public.

However, should a passenger receive a penalty fare and feel that it is really not appropriate, there is a robust appeals process, which was introduced in 2018. That provides a further level of protection for passengers who feel that they have been treated unfairly. This appeals process has three different levels, and the third appeal is considered by an independent panel of three members, none of whom was involved in the handling of the previous two appeals.

It is for train operating companies to manage fare evasion on their services and there are a number of measures that they can use to do this, including penalty fares and unpaid fare notices. Avanti West Coast, for example—a favourite of the noble Lord, Lord Snape—chooses not to issue penalty fares, but it has alternatives. A passenger on an Avanti West Coast service who is unable to produce a valid ticket while travelling may need to purchase a full-price anytime ticket with no discount. As an alternative, they may be issued with an unpaid fare notice requiring them to pay the fare within 21 days. We are trying to set out here how a bit of flexibility is necessary and that a one-size-fits-all process for every service across England will not work.

There is a bit of flexibility to tailor overall revenue protection activity and adjust the action taken to a single passenger, dependent on that passenger’s circumstances. It is not in anyone’s interest for a TOC to operate a universally heavy-handed approach to all passengers travelling with an incorrect ticket. However, TOCs have a right and justifiable obligation to target those passengers who knowingly travel without a valid ticket. In those circumstances, it is right that the passenger without a ticket is appropriately penalised. This acts, among other things, as a deterrent.

The noble Lords, Lord Berkeley and Lord Snape, raised the issue of the incentives on TOCs to collect revenue. After all, it is not their revenue in the end. The department works with TOCs to ensure that ticketless travel surveys take place biannually to allow revenue protection teams to target known areas of fare evasion to have the maximum effect. Part of the payments made to operators is based on the outcome of those surveys.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, asked me some questions about Wales. While I have some information about that, I would rather write a letter with a fuller explanation, if that is okay. I will try to include what Wales is doing and any discussions with the Welsh Government.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, raised the issue of communication, and I agree with him that it is really important that passengers know about these changes and so do rail staff. That is already well in hand. The Rail Delivery Group is leading work with the train operating companies on communications materials, which will include posters, signage, leaflets at stations and websites. The Rail Delivery Group will update its guidelines to reflect the new penalty fares regulations.

The noble Lord highlighted the complexity of ticketing, as set out in Modern Railways magazine—not a magazine with which I am hugely familiar. But tickets in England are hugely complicated and, sometimes, when one is booking online, one may not get the best option. I will make sure that officials look at the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, about systems that were considered in the past and how we might roll them out.

The Government remain committed to radically reforming and improving the passenger experience of fares, ticketing and retailing on the railways. We want to simplify the current mass of complicated fares and tickets, while protecting affordable turn-up-and-go tickets and season tickets. There is much work in this area and there will be a real transformation in the way rail travel is bought, paid for and experienced. Removing complexity in ticketing systems will allow all related systems to be simplified to help reduce cost.

I reassure noble Lords that no passenger will be left behind. We will make sure that we serve those who use cash or those who do not have access to a smartphone or the internet. We need to make sure that they too can buy a ticket or access help to buy a ticket at the train station. We are working very closely with the Great British Railways transition team and the sector to build this better ticketing system and a better railway. We will take that further in due course.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Oh, good! I take the noble Lord’s point. I was going to spell out a number of things that do not require legislation. We want to legislate and we must do it when parliamentary time allows, but there are many things that we can do without legislation. I will take back the specific point about the ticketing system and maybe write to the noble Lord and all who spoke in the debate to see if I can find a little more clarity on that.

While I am on a roll on this, the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, mentioned long-term planning, which is one of the things that we do not need legislation for and which we have been thinking about. We are developing for publication the first draft of a long-term strategy for rail. I am sure noble Lords will appreciate the opportunity to debate that when it is published, because it sets out a long-term vision for our rail system over the coming decades.

To conclude, the vast majority of passengers who travel on our railways have the right ticket. If they do not, there are understandable circumstances. We accept that there is flexibility in the services that the train operating companies offer. However, we believe that the increase in the penalty fare is a sensible measure to discourage travel without a valid ticket, because it is simply not fair on other passengers or the taxpayer.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Snape, for the debate today. I have no doubt that I will be back at this Dispatch Box to discuss the railway system again, and I look forward to it.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to those noble Lords who participated in the debate. My noble friend Lord Berkeley reminded me of my failure to mention split ticketing. I could have said how desirable it is to stop that particular practice, although it is understandable that those in the know know how to do it. The magazine to which I referred set out a case of a passenger who was in the know, who used split ticketing to get from London to Edinburgh and back, but he needed 18 different tickets to do it. Such a system is nonsensical.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, who speaks for the Liberal Democrats on these matters, was right to point out the disparity between the rate of inflation in 2005 and the fivefold increase in penalty fares, to £100, that the Government propose. The Office for National Statistics informs me through my mobile phone that £20 in 2005 was worth £34.52 at the end of 2022. That is a hell of a difference between £20 and £100, plus the cost of the single fare on top of the penalty, as we were reminded. So it is a pretty indiscriminate increase, presumably plucked out of the air. The Minister did say in conclusion that people had been consulted since 2021 about this increase: she did not tell us who had been consulted, and I just wonder whether Mr Anthony Smith from Transport Focus had been, because I do not think that most passengers would approve.

I am grateful again to my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe from the Front Bench, and beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

Railway Station Ticket Offices

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Tuesday 13th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what representations they have received from (1) rail passenger groups, and (2) other stakeholders, about the proposed closure of railway station ticket offices.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government regularly hold meetings with rail passenger groups and other stakeholders, including the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee. Retail and workforce modernisation, including industry plans for ticket offices, forms part of those discussions. To propose any changes to the opening hours or the closure of ticket offices, train operating companies must follow the process set out in the ticketing and settlement agreement.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

Would the Minister be relaxed about catching a late-night train—operated only by a driver with no other staff on it—from an unstaffed station and then leaving the train at an unstaffed station at her destination? Does she think that ticket machines would come to her assistance in the event of any problems? If something unfortunate happened and she had to use a wheelchair, how would she consider travelling in those circumstances? Bearing in mind that, in the Greater London area, the London Overground, the Underground and the Elizabeth line all have stations staffed from the first to the last train, why cannot the rest of the country be treated in the same way?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, driver-only operations have been around since about the 1980s. It is certainly not a new concept. Over half of passengers who use the railways are on trains where driver-only operations are in place and have been accepted by train drivers. If we are able to change arrangements at ticket offices in some locations, that will mean that more people will be out and about in stations, providing the eyes and ears that we need to keep passengers safe. The Government are very conscious of more vulnerable adults and how they travel. We work very closely with the police and the Rail Delivery Group.

Rail Cancellations and Service Levels

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Thursday 1st December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

There were plenty of questions to be getting on with there. I am afraid that I am not aware of the loophole that the noble Baroness referred to. I will take that back to the department and write to her with an explanation of how that is included in the performance figures and whether or not we are able to improve the communications with passengers so that they know that trains are not running. We know that certainty is always the best option when it comes to running passenger services. The noble Baroness spoke about the performance fee. I am not entirely sure that it was a performance fee; it may have been a management fee. All fees go through an independent process. If payments are made, they are as a result of the contractual and legal obligations that the Government have with the train operating companies.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, would the Minister accept that Avanti does not just run its services badly but is responsible for the poor operation of many railway stations? My journey from Birmingham International this morning is a perfect example of how bad things are. I arrived for the 12 o’clock train. The lift had been out of order for three weeks. On the board, the train was shown as being on time; when I got through the barrier, it was shown as cancelled; and when I got to the platform, it was shown as delayed. The staff are unsupervised, unmotivated and disillusioned because of the lack of any management operation so far as Avanti is concerned. I asked to see the manager, but there are no managers around. I got to London the usual 40 minutes late. If Ministers had to travel on this shoddy service, Avanti would have been fired months since.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Obviously, I am deeply disappointed by what the noble Lord experienced. Ministers do travel on these services; I get it in the neck quite frequently from colleagues. I reassure the noble Lord that I have arranged a meeting with the Rail Minister, as promised previously in your Lordships’ House. That is now in the diary and I hope to be able to share the date of that meeting with noble Lords. I hope the noble Lord will come to that meeting, set out his concerns and allow the Rail Minister to set out exactly what the Government are doing, working with Avanti, TPE and many of the train operating companies, to improve services across the country.

Midlands Rail Hub

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Tuesday 15th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, as I said, we received the outline business case yesterday, so I hope the noble Lord will forgive me in that, clearly, we need to review what it says and what quick wins or otherwise there may be. I am aware that the reinstatement of platform 4 at Snow Hill station in central Birmingham is a key part of the work. It could be a quick win but no funding decisions have been made, and we expect that works will be delivered within the RNEP.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that this scheme, like many other railway schemes, has been assessed to death? As long ago as the early part of this year, the department promised that contracts would be let in January 2023. Is this not just another excuse to delay a vital project which many of us in the West Midlands are looking forward to seeing started?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not accept that. It is right that the Government go through the business case process. As the noble Lord will know, the outline business case is very important in ensuring that the project can be considered alongside other rail projects and then, potentially, put into the RNEP.

West Coast Main Line

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Wednesday 2nd November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what discussions they have held with Avanti West Coast about the (1) frequency, and (2) reliability, of train services on the West Coast Main Line.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the department meets Avanti West Coast regularly to discuss operational performance. This includes monitoring the delivery of its plans to restore and improve its services. From December, Avanti plans to operate 264 daily train services on weekdays, which is a significant step up from the around 180 daily services at present.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, I first congratulate the Minister on surviving the departmental cull. She is one of the few surviving stars in an ever-changing galaxy, as far the Department for Transport is concerned. Long may she continue to twinkle.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

Will she accept that Avanti is incapable of running the skeleton service that it is supposed to provide at present? Will she accept that its prospects of increasing that service in the way that she outlined are pretty slim, given its record so far? Is there some ideological reason why those of us who are condemned to use the west coast main line cannot enjoy the same facilities as those who use the publicly run east coast main line? Could she ask the Rail Minister —perhaps she could tell us who this is—whether we can be provided with the same standard of service as those who are lucky enough to live on the east coast?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his kind words, and I am sorry only that I am not the Rail Minister, who is my honourable friend Huw Merriman in the other place. As noble Lords may know, he is the former chair of the Transport Committee, so he knows his onions. On Avanti, the noble Lord is right: as I have said many times, we are not content with the service provided. We are content that a plan is in place, and it is being scrutinised as it is being implemented. Avanti remains on probation, and the operator of last resort remains an option, of course.

Avanti West Coast Contract Renewal

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Wednesday 26th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will certainly relay that concern to the new Secretary of State. I am very grateful to my noble friend for raising TransPennine Express, because that is a very similar situation. It goes back to Covid, the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, was trying to get me on to. TransPennine Express is having the same issues as Avanti—actually, it is slightly earlier in its journey, so at least the Government will have had experience with Avanti when trying to get TransPennine Express through. It has had higher than average sickness among train crew, high levels of drivers leaving and reduced training. It has also had the loss of driver rest-day working because ASLEF decided not to extend or renew the rest-day working agreement that has expired. There is a theme here. The Government will work with Avanti and TransPennine Express. I encourage all noble Lords on the other side of the House to work with the unions to reach an agreement on getting these services up and running.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

Will the Minister accept that her responses stretch credulity, to say the least? As recently as July this year, in response to a Question from me, she acknowledged that Avanti’s performance was “terrible”. Since then, it has had a contract extension and, for no accountable reason, a £4 million bonus for customer service. Is she aware of the misery that regular travellers on the west coast main line have to put up with daily from this incompetent outfit? What will it take for the Government to do their job and relieve Avanti of any responsibility for being involved in our railway system ever again?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am pretty sure that Avanti has not received a performance bonus of £4 million for providing services in the current period—if I am wrong, I will of course correct the record. I should like to be a bit pragmatic about all this, because we have to look at the alternative. The alternative would be to send in OLR—obviously there would be legal and contractual processes to go through—but what would OLR do? It does not have train drivers up its sleeve. The issues are the lack of train drivers and the rest-day working agreement not being adhered to, and those issues would remain. We understand what the problems are. We are getting the drivers trained and into the trains, and services are going from 180 to 164. I hope that the next time I speak to the noble Lord, Lord Snape, he will be at least a little more content than he is now, because I do want to make him happy. We all want Avanti to succeed.

West Coast Main Line

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Monday 4th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the recent performance of the rail services on the West Coast Main Line provided by Avanti Trains.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, train operating companies’ performances are independently assessed against their contracts periodically across set criteria. An evaluation is under way and therefore it would be inappropriate for me to comment at this time. Once the evaluation is complete, results will be published.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

Does the Minister recollect our exchange on 27 April, when she said that this company had the lowest possible passenger satisfaction, scoring only one out of five? Will she accept from me that since then the performance has been even worse? The company is now at the bottom of the intercity league so far as delays and cancellations are concerned. As the company’s contract expires in October, what plans do the Government have to renew it or to find an alternative, bearing in mind that anyone running the west coast main line from October qualifies to run HS2 in the future? Will we really hand over Britain’s flagship railway to a company that is 70% controlled by the Italian Government and that has made a complete mess of the trains that it is responsible for running at present?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do indeed recall an almost identical Question on 27 April. It is a pleasure to be answering it again. Avanti West Coast achieved one out of three, not one of five, which I agree is still terrible—it was at the bottom—but the Government hold it and all other train operators to account via the contracts. Avanti West Coast is still on an ERMA and, as the noble Lord pointed out, we are looking at potentially moving it and allied organisations on to a national rail contract within the third tranche of the national rail contracts. Will it definitely happen in October? That is not certain at all. We will look at its performance. We will think about the other options that we might consider in terms of incorporating HS2, for example, and being the shadow operator of HS2. Nothing is certain at this stage.

West Coast Main Line

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Wednesday 27th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have, if any, to replace Avanti Trains as the principal operator on the West Coast Main Line.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the department is currently in discussions with Avanti West Coast, as per the prior information notice first issued in October 2020, about a subsequent direct award. A decision will be made later in the year.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that not-too-helpful response. Does she regret the replacement of Virgin Trains by this particular organisation? Does she agree with me that the problem of national rail contracts is that, under the present system, they are, in effect, cost-plus contracts? There is no incentive on train operating companies either to run trains or to provide a decent service, something this particular company has taken advantage of. Will she send Avanti a short message—how about, “Arrivederci”?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for that. I also am aware that he has written to Avanti West Coast citing his concerns. It has no record of any correspondence from him; however, the managing director is very happy to speak to the noble Lord—perhaps he can say that Italian word at that meeting. It is the case that both for the ERMAs and the national rail contracts, there are very firm incentivisation elements. For example, Avanti earns a fee based on performance and, for the six months to March 2021, it was judged as getting a score of one for customer experience—that is the lowest, not the highest. Therefore, because it got the lowest, it got no fee for that element. So there is incentivisation, and we hope to make it better because we want to see excellent customer service across our railways.

P&O Ferries

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Tuesday 29th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

All I can say to the noble Lord is to reiterate what I have already said: we are working at pace on a package of measures which we hope to announce very shortly.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is not just P&O, appalling though its conduct has been? Will she answer the question from the Liberal Democrat Front Bench and tell us how many other shipping companies which ply British waters are not meeting the British minimum wage?

Payments to Train Operating Companies

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Tuesday 15th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what estimate they have made of the impact on train services of a 10 per cent reduction in payments from the Department for Transport to train operating companies.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the department has no plans to reduce payments to train operating companies by 10% and has not assessed the impact such a reduction would have on train services. As noble Lords would expect, we have asked operators to provide credible, efficient and sustainable business plans which will deliver reliable and resilient train services that adapt to passengers’ evolving needs and drive value for taxpayers.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister accept that the twin attacks of a 3.8% increase in rail fares, the highest in almost a decade, together with any reduction in subsidies—I would still like to know exactly how much the Government are prepared to put forward towards our rail industry in the next financial year—will lead to reduced numbers of passengers travelling by train and more congestion and pollution on our roads? Surely that is not the way forward as regards the Government’s carbon reduction targets.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are very focused on making sure that the services we provide for passengers meet their needs. Ridership at the current time is around just under two-thirds of what it was pre-pandemic. There may have been substantial and enduring change, so we are working with the train operating companies, asking them to look very carefully at timetables, remove duplications where possible and look for savings and efficiencies. At the end of the day, we need to provide services that meet passengers’ needs, and they need to be punctual and reliable.

Bus Improvement Plans

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Tuesday 8th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Yes, I can. There will be probably three different tranches of funding. Some areas—those that produced the best BSIPs, matching all the stated outcomes set out in the national bus strategy—will get transformation funding. A second tranche of local authorities will go into the improvement category, whereby they are on their way to preparing the sort of BSIPs that take into account all the outcomes from the NBS. Other areas will probably need more support, in terms of capability and capacity, so that they can fully understand how buses can meet the needs of their communities. We understand that no place must be left behind. We hope to provide support to areas where the BSIPs are not fully developed but where there is huge potential to do so.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, can we have a straight answer to this question? How much have local transport authorities asked for under the Government’s bus service improvement plans? Is the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, right that only £1.2 billion is available for these plans? Are we once again to put up with the Prime Minister’s sloganising? “Bus Back Better” bears no resemblance to reality if the figures the noble Baroness gave are accurate.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, we asked the local transport authorities to be ambitious and, goodness gracious, they were. That is absolutely right. Indeed, I am not sure I have ever done a competition in the Department for Transport that has not been significantly oversubscribed. In aligning the amount of money we have, we have to really look at how that money will be used and whether it meets the requirements in the national bus strategy. I will mention no names at all but, for example, one local authority bid to build a new road from the bus funding. That does not necessarily strike me as exactly what we need out of the bus funding. My officials are making sure that the areas we fund with taxpayers’ funding get the best bang for our buck.

Bus Services: Covid-19 Emergency Funding

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Tuesday 1st March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Berkeley, and at his request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I am pleased to confirm that a final tranche of recovery funding for local transport providers, totalling over £150 million over six months, was announced earlier today. This builds on previous funding packages and will support transport operators and local authorities responsible for bus and light rail systems to transition their networks and adapt to new travel patterns as we build back better from the pandemic.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, would the Minister accept that that has rather ruined what would have been a coruscating supplementary on my part? Can I ask her whether she should congratulate my noble friend Lord Berkeley on his perception in tabling this Question in the first place, and can I tell her that this is the first time in nearly half a century that I have received such a positive response from any Minister in any Government? Perhaps I may ask her to be specific as far as the West Midlands is concerned. Can she offer some comfort to the West Midlands Combined Authority, which estimates a deficit of £50 million in its transport budget for the next financial year?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am always grateful to receive a Question from the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, but today it was a particularly good one. We will be working with all the local transport authorities as they not only put in place their best service improvement plans, but also make best use of this funding. We have service levels running at approximately 90% while current patronage is approximately 77% and within that there are some quite significant regional variations. For example, we know that in the West Midlands people use buses more than elsewhere. Particularly with the Commonwealth Games coming up, we are very cognisant that we need to keep local transport running.

International Travel Rules

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Thursday 22nd July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his suggestions, and I will ensure that my colleagues at the Home Office listen to them as well. We have always been very clear that wait times at the border may be extended due to biosecurity checks being carried out. These are essential to protect the public and the success of our vaccination programme. Passengers have a key role to play in this, as to a certain extent do airlines, because they do some checking before passengers board aircraft. The noble Lord mentioned e-gates. Automation is also really important. We have been able to upgrade the e-gates to speed passengers through the airport.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

I draw your Lordships’ attention to my entry in the register of interests. The travel industry is at present on its knees. Regular changes in government policy, as well as changes in the government policy on the admittance of British businesspeople and holidaymakers from other countries, are making the situation considerably worse. Could the Minister tell us what consultations, if any, have been held with the Treasury about some sector-specific assistance to this vital industry?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, we believe that by the end of September 2021 the air transport sector, for example, will have benefited from around £7 billion worth of government support since the start of the pandemic. Decisions around the sector support will of course ultimately be a matter for the Chancellor based on the evidence that we have been able to provide. Of course, we have regular conversations with our colleagues at the Treasury, but also with industry. We are listening very carefully to the sector.

Great British Railway Plans

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Tuesday 22nd June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, there are no such plans. In reference to the noble Lord’s statements about HS2 and East West Rail being separate infrastructure managers, I say that there are 13 different infrastructure managers already on the rail network. GBR will obviously work closely with them, as indeed it will have to with Transport for Wales and ScotRail. GBR will be set up to collaborate; that is what we want to see it doing.

[Lord Snape (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, bearing in mind that the recently issued White Paper stressed the importance of a “guiding mind” so far as the railway industry is concerned in future, is it not completely illogical to leave out HS2 and East West Rail, its two major construction projects? Surely there will be considerable involvement in both projects. Does the Minister not remember John Junor’s famous phrase in the Sunday Express: “Who is in charge of the clattering train?”

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Sadly, I do not remember that from the Express. One of the words that the noble Lord said was absolutely critical: “construction”. HS2 and East West Rail are indeed both in construction at the moment and will be for some time. There is therefore ample time as both become operational railways for them to collaborate with GBR to ensure that all their services interlink.

Britain’s Railways

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Monday 24th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape (Lab) [V]]

Does the Minister accept that we have spent many years listening to Conservative Ministers extolling the virtues of franchising, yet the White Paper acknowledges, in effect, that the franchising system has been an expensive failure, the abolition of which is long overdue? On rail freight, what actions will Ministers take to ensure the future success of the rail freight industry if we are to achieve a meaningful transfer of freight from road to rail and reduce the number of heavy goods vehicles on our roads? Will Ministers reject the RHA’s incessant demands for bigger and heavier lorries on our overburdened road network? Does the Minister agree that, properly encouraged, rail freight could make a significantly greater contribution towards the Government’s carbon reduction targets?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I cannot agree with the noble Lord that franchising has been an expensive failure. We have seen an enormous growth in passenger numbers as a result of the involvement of the private sector, and I think that has given us a really firm foundation from which to go better. However, rail freight is a topic that we can probably agree a little more on. I believe that it will benefit from this national co-ordination, as I said earlier, and we will consult closely with the freight industry to find out what challenges it has and how we can help it by making changes. We will introduce a new rules-based track access regime, which will have a statutory underpinning. That will be relevant for both freight and open access operators. We believe that that will yield more goods going by rail freight, and we will engage with the industry to make sure that this is the case.

Railway Industry Association Report

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Tuesday 18th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government’s plans for decarbonising all forms of transport will be set out in the transport decarbonisation plan, which will be published shortly, but the noble Lord is quite right that the best way to make the most effective use of the supply chain is to have a rolling programme. That is why electrification projects are included in the rail network enhancements pipeline, which was last published in October 2019 and will be updated in the near future. I take his point about the Treasury, but it is also the case that we must be prudent and stay within the funding envelope that we have available.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

The Minister will be familiar with the east-west railway line connecting our two main varsity towns. She will also be familiar with the fact that the design was for a fully electrified line, since when the Government have changed that to a non-electrified line, with electrical specification left for the future and the line being built by a private sector company. Are we really going to decarbonise our transport system by adopting this temporary and, in the view of many of us, expensive alternative, rather than going ahead with building the line as it was originally designed?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I reassure the noble Lord that it is our aim to deliver a net-zero carbon railway. East West Rail is a very important part of the development of the Ox-Cam Arc, which will support housing and jobs. Any decision to grant development consent for the project will need to demonstrate that it would not have a material impact on the ability of the Government to meet their carbon reduction targets. However, EWR Co, the company responsible for it, continues to examine decarbonisation options, including full electrification along the whole route, as well as various options for partial electrification using battery or electric hybrid rolling stock and other sustainable rolling stock options.

E-Scooters

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Thursday 22nd April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is right that it can be a frightening prospect, particularly for vulnerable people using the road or pavement, to be terrorised by e-scooter users. But that does not mean that we should not proceed with trials that will establish exactly what the risks are and build an evidence base, as to how they might be successfully used. I take note of his comments and will make sure that colleagues in the Home Office are aware of the concerns about enforcement against the use of e-scooters on pavements.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

Is the Minister aware that Birmingham is one of the cities selected for the e-scooters trial, and that representatives of the blind and partially sighted community have expressed widespread concern about the number of these wretched things that have been abandoned in the city centre as a result of this trial? Does the Minister anticipate ditching her ministerial car to use one and can she see the Peers’ car park being packed with e-scooters at some time in the future? Finally, can she reflect on replacing the private car with these sorts of machines? We have heard it all before, so will e-scooters go the same way as the Sinclair C5 or Segway?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, the Government believe that e-scooters, if used in the right way, have great potential and could encourage modal shift away from the car. That is why we are doing these trials. I am delighted that Birmingham has decided to be forward-thinking, as I would expect of it, and to take up the opportunity for a trial. A lot goes into place when a trial is established; there is careful liaison with the local police and the operator. A key concern is to make sure that the scooters are put back where they belong, and we are very focused on that with each of the operators.

Domestic Air Travel

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Tuesday 20th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord is quite right; I have looked at this and there are probably three routes to which this would apply—for Manchester, Leeds Bradford and Exeter. Our expectation is that many passengers travelling on those domestic routes would be making an international connection, so even in France their flights would not be banned. This Government do not propose to ban domestic flights; we propose investing in high-speed rail and ensuring that our aviation sector as a whole contributes to decarbonisation.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister acknowledge that the speed of the French TGV had an enormous impact on the internal aviation market in that country and that timings under HS2 such as two hours and 17 minutes to Newcastle and 67 minutes to Manchester, as well as the hope for three hours to Glasgow and Edinburgh, will have a similar impact on Britain’s internal aviation? I know that she is not a member of the Green Party, but perhaps she could help me out and explain on its behalf why it is in favour of slower trains on Victorian infrastructure yet against modern high-speed trains on new infrastructure.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I would love to help the noble Lord. I fear that I am unable to explain it, and the irony in this Question is very clear to me; investment in High Speed 2 is clearly good for the environment and should be continued. As he identified, the journey time savings can be significant as well as capacity.

National Bus Strategy: England

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Thursday 18th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his warm words about the bus strategy—it is nice to have some. The noble Lord also makes a very important point: because we are giving more local control and accountability for bus services, the ability of local transport operators to put in place their bus service improvement plans will be critical. The noble Lord spoke of their need to share best practice. That is absolutely in the plan: the bus centre of excellence will combine learning from not only the Department for Transport but bus operators and the leading LTAs—which are already well down this track—and it will encourage everyone and ensure that they can move together at the same speed. We do not want what I call the recalcitrant LTAs: the people who have not loved buses as much as the Government have. My ambition is to make sure that we have no recalcitrant LTAs and that across the country everybody levels up so that we have good bus services everywhere.

The noble Lord mentioned demand-responsive transport. He will have seen the £20 million that we have put into 17 bids across the country. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned them. We published the list of 17 successful places back in early January; all of them have moved into the final stage and secured funding. Demand-responsive transport will be really good for rural areas. The noble Lord wants them to be autonomous, and so do I, but perhaps not just yet.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on the documents. Unlike the spokesperson for the Liberal party, I welcome it. The fact that she has embraced so many policies that the Labour Party has advocated for so many years is entirely to her credit. More power to her elbow, say I. Has the Minister read the Prime Minister’s foreword? I know these things are traditionally written for Prime Ministers, but it is everything we have come to expect from the Prime Minister: a mixture of comedy, hyperbole and demagoguery. Talking about the bus industry it states:

“Outside London, with a few exceptions, that lesson has not been learned.”


He is comparing London to the rest of the country. As a former chairman of a major bus operator, I could have learned some lessons if we had thrown £1 billion in subsidy at buses in Birmingham over the period since deregulation, but we never had the opportunity.

Will the Minister say what happened to the £5 billion that the Prime Minister announced with suitable flair about a year ago? It has now been reduced to £3 billion. It is welcome nevertheless. How will it be distributed? Will there be proper consultation with local authorities and bus operators? Will the Minister accept my congratulations on the paper as far as it goes? Next time we take a bus trip together, which she has promised, I will see if I can sell her a few more Labour Party policies on the journey.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I think good ideas should not be party political. The noble Lord, Lord Snape, mentioned the £5 billion. If he were to read the—I would say “small print” but it was not small print—document, the £5 billion was for cycling, walking and buses, so there was £3 billion for buses and £2 billion for cycling and walking. However, the noble Lord makes a very serious point. I am delighted that the strategy is out of the door, but I am under no illusion: the hard work is about to start because we have £3 billion and we have to think about exactly how we spend it. At the moment we cannot decide that because we do not know what sort of bus service improvement plans are going to be coming forth from the local transport authorities.

The timeline looks like this: by 30 June, each transport authority will say that it is going to have either an enhanced partnership or franchising and that the bus operators are willing to take part; they will then have to work very hard indeed to prepare a bus service improvement plan by 31 October. On the basis of those bus service improvement plans and the amount of funding that is needed in order to provide the sort of revenue funding and capital funding required for those plans, the funding will be distributed. Of course, it could also be the case that bus lanes could be bolstered through a levelling up fund, so there is a lot of opportunity for local transport authorities at the moment to take buses by the scruff of the neck and bring them into the 21st century and beyond.

Rail Freight: Channel Tunnel

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Wednesday 24th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that only around 1 million tonnes of through-freight is taken across the Channel on long-distance freight trains from this country, whereas more than 20 million tonnes is taken on 1.6 million lorries? If you add to it the 2.5 million lorries a year thundering down the M20 to use the sea crossing at Dover, leaving these things to—as she puts it—commercial matters when they are environmentally disastrous is not what those of us who supported the Channel Tunnel from its inception really believed.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord will know that whether a consignment uses conventional rail freight or an HGV will very much depend on the nature of the goods being transported. Conventional rail freight is more often used for more dense goods, such as those from the steel and automotive sectors and other bulk goods. But, as I have already said, there is capacity to increase conventional rail freight through the Channel Tunnel and we look forward to those who wish to do so.

Railways: Electrification

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Tuesday 19th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I have noted, the Government will publish in spring 2021 the transport decarbonisation plan, which will take a holistic and cross-modal approach to achieving net zero. However, this Government have electrified 700 miles of track in the last few years; we have a very ambitious electrification programme, which goes through the rail network enhancements pipeline to make sure that the right schemes are prioritised and that it secures value for money.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

Will the Minister accept that these things, to use her words, take a long time because successive Governments, including this one, keep putting them off? Would it not make more sense to have a proper rolling programme of electrification that would meet the aspirations of the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, and help bring about stability in the industry for those responsible for electrification? Finally, would it not also help the Government’s carbon reduction targets?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, these things take a long time not because of delays but because of all the quite correct processes that these schemes need to go through. The noble Lord points out that the Government need a long-term electrification plan. That is exactly what the rail network enhancements pipeline is: it looks at all the potential schemes, prioritises those that produce the best overall benefits and secures value for money for the taxpayer.

National Bus Strategy

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Wednesday 16th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As the noble Baroness will be aware, transport in London is the responsibility of the mayor, so I shall not go into great detail on that. However, she has raised a really important point, which is that road-space reallocation is going to be one of the key features as we try to decarbonise our transport landscape and balance the needs of car users, delivery drivers, bus users and, of course, cyclists.

[Lord Snape (Lab) [V]]

Is the Minister aware that the National Express route 11 in Birmingham is reputed, at 26 miles, to be the longest urban bus route in Europe? In 1979, the journey would timetable at two hours and 10 minutes; by 2020, that had increased, due to congestion, to three hours and four minutes. Would the Minister consider the enjoyment of joining me for a three-hour journey around Birmingham’s ring road on the number 11? Alternatively, can I persuade her to visit the recently opened Regional Transport Coordination Centre to see for herself what we are doing to tackle congestion in the West Midlands?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I may have to decline the trip on the route 11 on this occasion—perhaps maybe next time if the noble Lord asks again. But I would like to see the Regional Transport Coordination Centre in Birmingham, not least because it was actually delivered on the back of £19.5 million-worth of funding from the transforming cities fund. I remind the noble Lord that it was opened by the Transport Secretary on 17 January—so perhaps I can do an anniversary visit at some point next year.

Railways: Fare Structures

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Tuesday 17th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord is quite right. Indeed, the Government proactively approached the train-operating companies for proposals on how we can make our fares and ticketing system better for consumers. We have received a number of proposals over the summer and are considering them.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, it is apparent that the Treasury will insist on an inflation-plus increase in rail fares next year. Does the Minister feel that such a policy will attract passengers back to the rail system following the pandemic? Is it not more likely that, given the continuation of the 11-year freeze on fuel duty, more motorists will take to the roads, causing even more congestion and pollution in future?

Network Rail’s Enhancements Pipeline

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Wednesday 21st October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am sure that my noble friend would like me to say that I will of course appoint him to lead Network Rail, but, unfortunately, he is going to be disappointed. He slightly underplays the huge developments in recent years as we established the RNEP. It was established only in 2018 and what it tried to do—and indeed does—is to put in one place, open for scrutiny, all the projects that we are considering, whether they are at the initiation, development, design or delivery stage. We provide updates every quarter; that is good transparency and provides for good scrutiny.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

The Minister’s noble friend is quite right: Network Rail’s costs are outrageous. Is she aware that, back in 1988, British Rail built a new station at Tutbury on the Derbyshire-Staffordshire border for £80,000? As recently as 1998, Railtrack built four new stations on the Robin Hood line, as well as a new platform and two overbridges, for £5.3 million. Yet Network Rail is now quoting £14 million for a single platform and £22 million for a double-platform station. This is outrageous. Will the Minister tell Network Rail so, and will she tell me how she gets on if she does?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord is right to raise the increasing costs of transport infrastructure projects. Noble Lords may know that I have a particular interest in Hammersmith Bridge at the moment. It was built for £10 million in today’s money many, many years ago; you could not get it for that now. I take the noble Lord’s point that we absolutely have to drive down costs. That is part of what we are doing with Network Rail. It is really important that we challenge the costs and make sure that they are as low as possible. If the noble Lord has any evidence that he wants to share with my department and the rail Minister, I would be happy to pass it on.

Covid-19: Transport Industry

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Tuesday 6th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Baroness may be interested to know that bus demand is currently running at about 55% of normal, which is encouraging, but she is quite right, and will know that we had always planned to do a bus strategy this year. Of course, we are starting from a very different place from where we had hoped to be, but it will include an awful lot of recovery work, as she so rightly outlined, and set out how we will get 4,000 zero-emission buses on our roads.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

Is the Minister aware that the coach industry feels particularly aggrieved, having been excluded from the industry-specific grants that have so benefited buses and trains? Is she also aware that long-standing family companies such as Travel De Courcey, based in Coventry, have already gone to the wall because of the economic situation? Can she offer any comfort to these vital parts of our transport industry, as far as the future is concerned?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am aware of the very difficult situation that the coach industry finds itself in. It is a very diverse sector with, as the noble Lord points out, a large number of family-run businesses. About 80% of revenue in the coach sector comes from tourism, and we are working very hard with DCMS to ensure that where tourism—particularly domestic tourism—can take place, it does. Much of the remaining 20% is home-to-school transport, and the Government have made available £40 million for the first half of this current term, for local authorities to procure extra vehicles.

Covid-19: Public Transport

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Tuesday 7th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton [V]]

The noble Baroness will be well aware that the Government’s communication strategy is evolving over time as we respond to coronavirus. She raises some very important points, and we must also consider what will happen in the future, particularly as people return to work in greater numbers in the autumn and children return to school in September. We are cognisant of all these things and our messaging is appropriate.

[Lord Snape (Lab) [V]]

Does the Minister accept that Transport Ministers’ consistently doom-laden warnings about the risks involved in travelling on public transport have destroyed public confidence in the safety of our transport systems? Does she accept that any failure to extend taxpayer support beyond the proposed cut-off date of 20 September is likely to mean that buses and trains will be few and far between after that date, outside of Britain’s major conurbations? What comfort can she offer to bus and train operators and their passengers that the future of public transport in this country is secure?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton [V]]

The travelling public have listened to the Government and decided to heed our warnings about travelling on public transport because capacity is so limited, not because it is unsafe. The Government are working extremely closely with transport operators across all modes to establish a medium-term funding mechanism, because we want high-quality public transport in the future and our public transport system to rebound, when it is safe to do so.

Public Transport: Face Coverings

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Snape

Thursday 25th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton [V]]

I agree with the noble Lord that it is essential that people use a face covering when they travel. We have been working with the rail industry and other transport operators on the provision, on a one-off basis, of a supply of face coverings that can be given out in the circumstances he has described, particularly while people get used to wearing them. We are also looking with the Cabinet Office at longer-term supply options so that members of the public can purchase low-cost face coverings at various outlets. For example, Network Rail has installed vending machines supplying face coverings at many of its stations.

[Lord Snape (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, what consultations took place with bus, coach and train operators and their representatives before the announcement about face coverings was made? Turning to enforcement, does the Minister expect front-line staff to turn away would-be passengers who for any reason are not wearing face masks? What other consultations have there been with the police, particularly the British Transport Police, about the enforcement of the wearing of face masks on railway services?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton [V]]

I think the noble Lord will understand that at present, all Ministers have a close ongoing relationship with transport operators and unions. We are continually having conversations about the sort of measures that may come in in the future. We spoke to the unions about face coverings; indeed, it was the unions that did not want the use of face coverings by transport workers made mandatory. We listened and worked with them to make that the case. Transport operators such as bus drivers often have to turn people away, for example, because of poor behaviour, in which case they might then go on to call the police. It is the same in the case of face coverings; if people create a fuss because they are denied boarding, transport operators will get the police involved. Of course, we speak frequently to the British Transport Police about this matter as well.