Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Scott of Bybrook and Earl of Lytton

2nd reading
Wednesday 27th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

As I think I have said to the noble Lord many times from this Dispatch Box, this is a complicated issue. I think there are about 121 recommendations in the Law Commission’s framework and we just have not had the time to go through them. However, this takes us a good way towards commonhold for the future.

The Law Commission did fantastic work to review the commonhold framework, and, as I said, it set out 121 separate detailed recommendations on how to modernise it. I appreciate the points from the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, about commonhold and his frustration that these reforms have not come forward. However, these are not trivial changes. Implementing them requires detailed consideration. It is a complex policy, and to make sure we get it right and so that commonhold does not fail to take off for a second time, we will take the time required to make it work. We will therefore set out our response to the Law Commission’s report as soon as that work is concluded.

On the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, my noble friends Lady Finn and Lord Moylan and many others about leasehold rights to manage, managing a large or complex building is not an easy feat, especially meeting building safety requirements, and some leaseholders may simply not want this responsibility. That is why the Government believe that leaseholders should therefore have the choice to manage their buildings, which they now do. The Bill delivers the most impactful of the Law Commission’s recommendations on right to manage, including increasing the non-residential limit to 50% in mixed-use buildings to give more leaseholders the right to take over management, and changing the rules to make each party pay their own process and litigation costs. These measures will help existing leaseholders now and save them many thousands of pounds into the future.

The Government recognise that the participation threshold of one-half can frustrate leaseholders if they cannot reach it. However, we agree with the Law Commission that the threshold is proportionate and ensures that a minority of leaseholders are prevented from acquiring the freehold against the wishes of the majority of leaseholders in the building. We are therefore very clear that we should hold the participation requirement at half of the total number of residential units in the premises.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, my noble friend Lord Moylan and many others have also made powerful arguments that the creation of new freehold estates must end, and that local authorities should be compelled to adopt all communal facilities on a new estate. It is up to the developers and the local planning authority to agree on specific issues relating to new development, including appropriate funding and maintenance arrangements. That said, we are carefully considering the findings and the recommendations of the Competition and Markets Authority report to address the issue that home owners on these estates face.

On the questions from the noble Baronesses, Lady Taylor and Lady Thornhill, about expanding the right to manage regime to cover the residents of freehold estates, the Government recognise the benefits that the right to manage regime on freehold estates would bring, empowering home owners to manage and take a greater control of the estate on which they live. However, there would be many detailed practical issues to work through to deliver this, which would all require careful handling since they affect property rights and existing contract law. Instead, we have introduced measures in this Bill to empower home owners and make estate management companies more accountable to them for how their money is spent, including the ability to apply to the appropriate tribunal to appoint a substitute manager.

The noble Lord, Lord Best, spoke extensively and eloquently about the regulation of property agents, which my noble friend Lord Young, the noble Lord, Lord Truscott, and many others, supported. This Government remain committed to driving up professionalisation and standards among property agents. We welcome the ongoing work being undertaken by the industry and others to drive up standards across the sector, including on codes of practice for property agents. I put on record my sincere thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Best, and the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, for their valuable work on this issue. However, as a Secretary of State made clear at Second Reading, legislating to set up a new regulator would require significant additional legislative time of a kind that we simply do not have in the lifetime of this Parliament.

On cost, the Government believe that any regulation can and should be done in an appropriate and proportionate way that controls the cost to business. Managing agents must already belong to a redress scheme and leaseholders may apply to the tribunal to appoint a manager to provide services in cases of serious management failure. The Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill will make it easier for leaseholders to scrutinise costs and challenge services provided by landlords and property managing agents, and ultimately for them to take on management of the buildings themselves, where they can directly appoint or replace agents. These measures, alongside existing protections and work undertaken by the industry, will seek to make property managing agents more accountable to the leaseholders who pay for their services.

The valuable work on the regulation done by the noble Lord, Lord Best, remains on the table, but this Bill is tightly focused on the fundamental improvements for leaseholders. These, alongside our building safety reforms, already make this a time of great change for managing agents, necessitating higher standards across the sector. We continue to listen and look carefully at the issues that Members across the House are raising on this.

My noble friend Lord Young spoke specifically about forfeiture, as did the noble Baronesses, Lady Taylor and Lady Twycross, my noble friend Lord Bailey and many others. As I said in my opening remarks, the Government recognise that this is a real and significant problem. There is huge inequity at stake. We have heard from colleagues today about why we should act. We think it is the job of government to go away and work through the detail of this, which we are doing. We will report back to the House shortly with more details as we consider the matter further.

My noble friend Lord Young, the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, and many others, raised several concerns about building safety, which I will try to address in some detail. The Government understand that many individuals are frustrated with the distinction between qualifying and non-qualifying leaseholders. We have been clear that the primary responsibility for resolving issues in buildings requiring remediation is with those who caused them. In circumstances where it does not prove possible to recover the cost of remediation from the developer, we have established a threshold that strikes a balance between leaseholders and landlords as to who should be paying for the costs of remediation. No leaseholder, whether qualifying or non-qualifying, can be charged more than they otherwise would have been in the absence of the leaseholder protections for costs relating to historical building safety defects.

A range of support is in place for leaseholders whose lease does not qualify for protection. All residential buildings above 11 metres in England now have a pathway to fix unsafe cladding, through either a taxpayer-funded scheme or a developer-funded scheme. With regard to buildings under 11 metres, it is generally accepted that the risk to life from fire is proportionate to the height of the building. Therefore, the risk to life from historic fire safety defects in buildings under 11 metres will require remediation only in exceptional circumstances.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

In relation to critical fire safety, the Minister referred to the risk to human life. I understand that that is what the independent expert statement was intended to cover; namely, critical life safety. What would she say about the other critical issues: finances and the cost of remediation, which none the less continue and are the matters that concern insurers and finance houses, which are by and large less concerned with questions of human life?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

We have taken the issue of human life as the important one. I think we will have further debates on 11 metres as we go through the Bill. I am conscious of time; if the noble Earl does not mind, we will deal with those matters in Committee.

Given the number of small buildings under 11 metres that need remediation, our assessment remains that extending leaseholder protections to below 11 metres is neither necessary nor proportionate, as I think the noble Baroness has heard many times before.

Regarding my noble friend Lord Young’s issue about enfranchised leaseholders, the Government decided that the leaseholder protection provisions in Part 5 of the Building Safety Act would not apply to leaseholder-owned buildings. That was because the freehold to the building is de facto owned by all or some of the residents who, as leaseholders, have collectively enfranchised and would still have to pay to remedy the safety defects in their buildings. However, leaseholders in those buildings, either individually or collectively, can pursue developers and their associated companies via a remediation contribution order for funds that they have spent or will spend remediating their buildings for relevant defects.

I turn to joint ownership. This Government understand that individuals are frustrated with the distinction between leaseholders who own properties jointly and those who do so independently. We are listening carefully to feedback from stakeholders on this matter. We have also published a call for evidence on jointly owned leasehold properties, which was launched on 22 March; this will enable the Government to understand the scale of the issue and consider whether any further changes can be proposed.

The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, asked about development value. I am very grateful to her for engaging with me beforehand about this issue. I can say to the noble Baroness, as she acknowledged, that we committed to enabling leaseholders voluntarily to agree to a restriction on future development of their property to avoid paying development value as part of the collective enfranchisement claim. We are consulting on making changes to the existing permitted development right and are seeking views on whether sufficient mitigation is in place to limit potential impacts on leaseholders. I urge the noble Baroness to contribute her views to that consultation before it closes on 9 April. When it closes, the Government will carefully consider and review all the responses and see how the regime can be improved.

I was very sorry to hear of the personal difficulties of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, when purchasing his freehold, and I hope that the reforms in this Bill will address the issues he raised. With regard to the point that he and my noble friend Lord Bailey raised on service charges, the level of service charges that leaseholders pay will depend on many factors, such as the terms of the lease and the age and condition of the building. This means that the cost of things such as repairs, maintenance of common areas and management of the building will differ considerably. The transparency and redress reforms in this Bill will empower leaseholders to take action against any unreasonable costs.

As well as speaking extensively about building safety issues, the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, made a compelling case for thinking about leasehold from the perspective of consumer protections. The Government are committed to improving consumer protections against abuse and poor service from landlords, managing agents and freehold estate managers. That is why we will set a maximum time and fee for the provision of information as part of the sales process for leasehold homes and those homes encumbered by estate management charges, and introduce rights of transparency over service charges, extended access to redress schemes and reform of legal costs. We consider that it is a powerful package of consumer rights and reforms, and, following Royal Assent, we will make sure that appropriate guidance is available for consumers. None the less, I look forward to meeting the noble Earl after Easter to discuss how this package can be further improved and well implemented.

The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, the noble Baroness, Lady Bray, and my noble friend Lord Howard asked about the Government’s policy on marriage value. Any suggestion of retaining marriage value—wholesale or in limited circumstances—would be counter to our aim of making it cheaper and easier for leaseholders to extend their lease or acquire their freehold. Such proposals would risk both perpetuating and creating a two-tier system—eroding the benefits that the Government are delivering through the Bill. Removing marriage value and hope value will deliver a level playing field and wide access for leaseholders who may otherwise find it prohibitively expensive to extend their lease or purchase their freehold. Our wider reforms to enfranchisement value will ensure that sufficient compensation is paid to landlords to reflect their legitimate property interests.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester spoke about the positive contribution that charities make to our society, which this Government wholly recognise. He asked specifically about exemptions from our reforms for charity. Although well-meaning, attempting to created carve-outs for specific groups of landlords—for example, charities—would complicate the system that we aim to simplify and would risk both perpetuating and creating a two-tier system. We appreciate the engagement that the right reverend Prelate has conducted with us so far and hope that we can continue that engagement on issues that we know, and he knows, are significant.

The noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, and the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, brought up the renters Bill and assured tenancies. We are aware that leaseholders with ground rents of more than £250 per year can be legally regarded as assured tenants. In the Renters (Reform) Bill, we are addressing this problem by removing all leaseholders with a lease longer than seven years from the assured tenancy system. That Bill is progressing through Parliament, and our priority is to pass this vital legislation before the end of this Parliament.

The noble Lord, Lord Khan, brought up the issue of the Commonhold Council. The council has met regularly since it was established in 2021 and last met in September. The Government are currently reviewing the Law Commission’s proposal to reform the legal framework for commonhold and plan to reconvene the group ahead of finalising their response to the Law Commission.

If I have missed any other specific issues raised, I can only apologise. A tremendous amount has been said in this session—all of great value—and I reiterate my commitment to meeting any Member of this House who wishes to discuss the Bill further after Easter. I hope that is acceptable to the House.

The Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill will deliver on the Government’s 2019 manifesto commitments, promoting fairness and transparency in the residential leasehold sector. I look forward to working with noble Lords during the passage of this most important Bill.

I have noted forfeiture, commonhold, the regulation of property agents, marriage value, ground rent and service charges as areas of serious interest to noble Lords, although others of equal importance have been raised. I am sure noble Lords will recognise that this is a very long list and there is little time remaining in the parliamentary Session. However, we are listening and looking carefully at what can be done on all those things.

Non-Domestic Rating Bill

Debate between Baroness Scott of Bybrook and Earl of Lytton

Committee stage
Monday 3rd July 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

My Lords, I will continue. The 12-month relief will provide a breathing space for the investment to start to generate returns before business rates have to be paid. I know that some feel that 12 months is not long enough to incentivise the types of major refurbishment and improvement often made to properties by landlords and developers. However, as I explained to the House at Second Reading, this relief is designed to help occupiers make improvements to their existing premises rather than subsidising general commercial property development.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, asked what “occupied” meant. We already have a current discretionary heat network scheme that we have worked up with full guidance in partnership with the heat network sector and local government. That guidance is already published. Once the Bill receives Royal Assent, we intend to translate that guidance into regulations and to make those in good time to ensure a seamless transition between the current discretionary scheme and the new mandatory scheme. I suggest that noble Lords look now at the guidance as it will make it clear what will go forward. In the meantime, we will work with the heat network sector on the regulations in case they need any tweaking.

Nevertheless, as this is a new relief, it is right that the Government evaluate whether it is working and delivers value for money. Therefore, the Bill as currently drafted includes powers to extend the duration of the improvement relief and in 2028 the Government will review the scheme. That will be the appropriate time to consider whether to continue with the scheme and how effectively the relief is operating. As part of that review, we will consider whether 12 months remains the correct duration for the relief. We have, however, allowed for a longer period of relief for low-carbon heat networks, given the particular role that they play in reducing our dependence on natural gas. That relief runs until 2035. Amendment 5, from the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Pinnock, would extend that to 2050. As with improvement relief, we have to balance the need for support with maintaining the services funded from the tax, as I have said. The end date in the Bill aligns with our ambition to phase out new natural gas boilers by 2035. By that date, new low-carbon heat networks will no longer have to compete with natural gas alternatives. Under those circumstances, we hope that the relief will no longer be necessary and, therefore, 2035 will be the right time to end the relief. However, as with the improvement relief, we will keep this under review and the Bill includes powers for us to extend the 2035 date, if it is necessary at the time.

I hope I have given noble Lords the explanations and assurances that they were seeking and that the noble Lord is able to consider withdrawing his amendment.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

The Minister mentioned regulations following Royal Assent and I am happy with that, but could she confirm that this will have a consultation process attached to it? She also referred to something that I interpreted as a post-legislative review. What is the framework for that in this instance?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

On the regulations, we are consulting at the moment and that will be discussed afterwards. If noble Lords want to put anything in, I suggest they look on GOV.UK. I shall sit down so that the noble Earl can ask his second question because I did not quite pick it up.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

It was about the post-legislative review and its framework, in so far as it would apply to the workings of the Bill once it gets Royal Assent.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

As far as I know, we do not have a framework yet, but as soon as we have—I assume it will go out to some sort of consultation—I shall make sure that noble Lords are aware of when it is issued.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I am told that there will be a non-digital availability. I will get all the details for the noble Baroness and I will write a letter, which will also go to the Library.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

I would like to tease out a little more information following the Minister’s response on Amendment 17. What happens, in effect, is that the evidence is part of an adjudication process. In my professional line of business, there are various stipulations about surveyors acting as expert witnesses and the way in which these things are to be handled. Amendment 17 is particularly important because, when one gets into a situation where there is an appeal pending, there is this little thing about equality of arms. If one party is able to use information that is held confidentially, to the exclusion of the other party, I do not think that equality—that transparency standard—is met. We are talking about what is ultimately something that leads to an appeal before the valuation tribunal.

Can the Minister say whether I have got it right that the VOA can have a protected category of evidence, as it were, that it is not prepared to share? This is something that has come up on my radar when looking at some of the blogs that have come out of the rating surveying world. It is a matter of fundamental importance in terms of the administration of any sort of justice system and adjudication, which is what this is. I would therefore like to pin down the Minister a little more on that point.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I think we made it very clear that the information that can be shared is the information that does not affect the data protection. Therefore, there will be information that cannot be shared because it will affect data protection. Because this is quite a legal issue, I will offer noble Lords a further, in-depth meeting, with lawyers there. If we are to get to the bottom of this, it is better to do that with a lawyer with us talking about the data protection law. Would the noble Earl be happy with that?

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

I thank the Minister; that would be very helpful.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

We will be in touch.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

Group 4 consists of Amendments 22 to 26, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton. They are concerned with the application of penalties for non-compliance with the VOA duty. As we have said, we will not initiate the VOA duty until we are satisfied that all ratepayers can reasonably and efficiently comply. There will be a soft launch of the duty, during which time no penalties for non-compliance will be issued and the VOA will raise awareness and expand its engagement with sector bodies and businesses of all sizes. As was said, issuing penalties will be the last resort. The VOA and HMRC will ensure that the new online service is simple to use and will take multiple steps to encourage ratepayers to comply, through reminders and warnings, before issuing a penalty.

Amendment 22 seeks to prevent the imposition of penalties where ratepayers’ errors or omissions are the result of reasonable reliance on VOA guidance. However, it is already the case that the VOA is able to apply penalties only where the ratepayer could reasonably be expected to know that the information would assist the VOA. All ratepayers will need to do to ensure that they are complying is follow guided steps on GOV.UK. If the ratepayer follows this guidance, the VOA will not, under the existing provisions of the Bill, be able to apply penalties. Thus, we do not think that this amendment adds anything of substance to the position as it already stands. If a penalty is issued in error where a ratepayer has relied on VOA guidance, the Bill gives the VOA the power to remit it. Ratepayers will also be able to appeal any penalty applied, and this will be independently reviewed by the valuation tribunal.

Amendments 23 to 25 are designed to address the penalty tariffs applicable to instances where a ratepayer has either failed to notify the VOA or provided false information. I will briefly explain the Government’s approach here. The Bill sets out the maximum level of penalty which the VOA may apply depending on the nature of the failure to comply. Our intention, as set out in our response to the technical consultation, is for the VOA sometimes to levy lower penalties than are set out by the framework of the Bill. Penalties will be levied as a percentage of the change in the rateable value rather than the entire rateable value and, where penalties are issued for a failure to provide information, the minimum penalty will be reduced for those on lower rateable values.

The Bill also introduces an offence where a ratepayer has knowingly or recklessly made a false statement. In these cases, a ratepayer could be subject to criminal sanction. Alternatively, making a false statement will lead to a civil penalty, the amount of which is provided by new paragraph 5ZD. Where the civil penalty is applied, in practice the maximum penalty will be 3% of the change in the property’s rateable value plus a fixed penalty of £500. To address the amendment, the Bill rightly provides a more severe penalty for knowingly or recklessly providing false information.

The point has been made that there should be a cap on daily penalties following an initial instance of failure to provide information. This information can have a direct impact on tax liability, so it is crucial that the duty is underpinned by a fair and proportionate but robust compliance regime. However, I can provide the reassurance that, even after the initial 60-day deadline, ratepayers will receive a reminder, warning and final warning before a penalty is applied. Only after an additional 30 days would the first daily penalty of £60 be issued. Ratepayers will be able to request a review and appeal of any penalties imposed. The daily penalties will be stopped when the ratepayer provides the required information, so as soon as the ratepayer complies, the penalties are effectively capped.

Applying daily penalties in this way is not an uncommon feature of taxation penalty regimes. For example, Schedule 36 to the Finance Act 2008 deals with powers for HMRC to request information from taxpayers and imposes penalties for a failure to provide such information. It includes penalties of up to £60 per day for as long as the non-compliance continues, without an overall cap on liability.

Amendment 26 seeks to alter the burden of proof which the valuation tribunal should apply when deciding whether to uphold a penalty decision. Of course, when considering a higher penalty for a ratepayer who has provided false information, the VOA must in the first place be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the information was provided knowingly or recklessly. There is considerable protection for ratepayers already.

Nevertheless, I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, for raising questions about the appeals process. We will of course review the relevant text. I hope that, given that I have explained why the system of penalties is designed as it is, noble Lords will agree the amendments are not necessary.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Pinnock and Lady Hayman, for their contributions on this group of amendments. The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, referred to the necessary balance here, and I agree. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, queried whether the application of criminal charges is properly introduced here, whether the Valuation Office Agency is the right outfit to make that call and whether it will be given the necessary guidance and assistance to make consistent rulings in that respect.

It seems to me that the question is about the discretion of the VOA to do things—its ability to do or not do—as opposed to a legal duty. It seems to me that some sort of duty on the VOA is part and parcel of its overarching statutory duty to, for instance, maintain a correct valuation list. It also seems to me that those duties should mirror the obligations and penalties imposed on the ratepayer, otherwise it is a very asymmetric situation. That is, to some extent, what I was trying to deal with in Amendment 16.

The Minister has given various explanations of the Government’s position here. On Amendment 22 and the question of “reasonably be expected to know”, she said that this covers the guidance given and therefore the amendment does not add anything of substance and that there is a right of appeal. I think I will have to consider carefully what she said. With regard to Amendments 23 and 25, I felt that I had detected a series of typographical errors, but I understand the Minister to have said that they are not errors and that the Bill is deliberately worded that way. I am not sure that on a fair reading that is likely to be the case, so I hope they may be looked into at some stage or other.

On the cap or no cap, I have already pointed out that there is a degree of asymmetry between the approach that has been adopted in the Bill in this respect and what happens with failure to deal with the form of return. I appreciate that there is the “knowingly or recklessly” test, but we have a rather circular argument here because, if the VOA is again the sole arbiter of “knowingly or recklessly” and the thing then proceeds to a tribunal that says something different, I would hope that we could have got to a situation well before then where the ground rules were understood. Is the Minister saying that the wording of the Bill is in all respects what was intended and that there are no typographical errors in it as I had supposed? Will she please clarify that point?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

No, there are no typographical errors in the Bill. I think the noble Earl asked that question earlier, and there were none.

Just to be clear on criminal offences and why they are necessary, there is already a criminal offence for providing false information in response to a request for information by the VOA. So we are not putting in a criminal offence—there is already one there as it stands now. It is interesting that criminal charges will be only for “knowingly or recklessly” giving false information. If it is just a false statement, for whatever reason, that would still be a civil penalty.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, for their amendment. I understand the concerns around this clause; I will take the opportunity to explain why we consider this measure to be necessary and to set out the limits of its application.

As we have heard throughout the passage of the Bill, more frequent revaluations and the measures we are introducing to support them are central to the reform of the business rates system. It is through those revaluations that the rating system is able to track and reflect changing economic circumstances. In property valuation terms, rateable values are updated at revaluations to reflect changes in economic factors, market conditions and changes in the general level of rents.

Of course, that does not mean that rateable values never change between revaluations. It would hardly be fair if, for example, a ratepayer demolished part of their property but this was not reflected until the next revaluation, or if a new property were built but escaped rates until the next revaluation. Therefore, some changes are reflected in rateable values as and when they happen. Examples include changes to the physical state of the property, the mode or category of occupation of the property or matters affecting the physical state of the locality. These matters, reflected as and when they occur, are called material changes of circumstances—MCCs.

The MCC system has been operating in this way for many years, but, during the coronavirus pandemic, we found that it was not working as intended. Large numbers of challenges were made, seeking reductions between revaluations for the effects of the pandemic, which by their nature were part of the general market conditions. Such general market matters should be considered at general revaluations.

Therefore, the Rating (Coronavirus) and Directors Disqualification (Dissolved Companies) Act 2021 clarified the law to ensure that coronavirus and the Government’s response to it were not an appropriate use of MCC provisions. Specifically, that Act ensured that anything done to comply with legislation, advice or guidance given by a public authority and attributable to coronavirus should not be an MCC, subject to some exclusions. The principle in that Act was approved by both Houses, and it received Royal Assent on 15 December 2021.

Clause 14 of the Bill merely takes that principle, clarified and accepted by this House in the 2021 Act in relation to coronavirus, and applies it more generally to all legislation, guidance and advice from public bodies. Changes in such matters are part of the economic factors and market conditions for a property and should be reflected at a general revaluation. This clause will protect the integrity of the rating system and ensure that more frequent revaluations can proceed smoothly. It will protect the system not just for central government but for local government, which relies on the revenue from business rates. The Local Government Association supports this clause and agrees that these matters should be reflected at general revaluations. But this does not mean that these matters are not reflected in rateable values; it just means that they are reflected only at the set date of each revaluation, along with all other economic and general market factors present at that date.

Furthermore, we have limited the scope of Clause 14 to three aspects of the MCC system to ensure that it operates fairly. This is to ensure that physical changes to the property or the state of the locality are still reflected. Therefore, Clause 14 will bite on only three types of MCCs. First, it will catch matters affecting the physical enjoyment of the property but not the physical state. This might include changes in how the property can be used following new legislation or guidance. Secondly, it will catch matters that are physically manifest in the locality but not matters affecting the physical state of the locality. This might include changes to traffic flows and bus or transport services. Thirdly, it will catch the use or occupation of other premises in the locality, which might include the change in use of a nearby property where, for example, the original use has been prohibited by new legislation.

Clause 14 will ensure that matters such as physical changes to a property or to the state of the locality continue to be immediately reflected in valuations, even if they are a result of new legislation or guidance. Clause 14 will also not bite on whether the property is non-domestic or domestic or whether it is exempt. Overall, Clause 14 will preserve a long-established principle by ensuring that matters that go more to the market conditions and general level of rents of a property belong in the general revaluation process. Of course, with more frequent revaluations, these factors will still be updated more often than ever before.

The clause will provide important stability and certainty to the rating list and, therefore, to the vital revenue for local government that flows from the list. Therefore, it would not be prudent to delay the introduction of the clause, as this amendment seeks. I know that the noble Earl will be disappointed that we are unable to agree to this, but I hope that I have set out the basis for taking this measure and also given him some assurances regarding its scope. I will look at Hansard tomorrow and will write to noble Lords with further explanations if I feel that they are required.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, for their support in connection with this. Although I understand what the Minister says is the intention of Clause 14, having been taken through it in some detail by more than one expert, I am bound to say that I do not agree with her about the effect of the clause. There is a difference in understanding, and I wonder whether it could be dealt with by a further discussion—the Minister is nodding, which I am grateful for. It is very difficult if somebody reads this in one way and says, “This could cover a multitude of things that could be excluded”, and the Minister says, “Actually, it is not intended to do that and these are the safeguards that we have built in”.

All I can say at this juncture is that I will certainly return to this on Report. I hope that there can be a meaningful dialogue on this in the meantime. It would be wrong for me to go into a detailed unpicking of what the Minister said at this hour and given the other pressures on us. To that end, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Building Safety

Debate between Baroness Scott of Bybrook and Earl of Lytton

Tuesday 11th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

My Lords, I add my congratulations to the Minister on his untiring work here. The Statement made in another place yesterday is certainly extremely welcome. As a practising chartered surveyor and valuer, I am particularly determined to ensure that the regime where the purveyors of shoddy buildings have not been properly held to account must stop, but I understand the immense complexity, raised by other noble Lords, to do with insurance and other matters downstream from the immediate problem.

My first and last concern is the point made, in particular, by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock: namely, that innocent people have devoted their life savings and invested their homemaking, their very being and their work/life balances in properties which have been found to be not constructed to safe standards. This is an appalling social and mercantile evil—let us make no bones about it.

I request that the Minister confirm that this cannot and must not be turned into a tax solution. The reasons for that will be self-evident. It would be both unfair and an unbelievably blunt instrument. It will almost certainly require hypothecation, and would merely serve to collectivise what should be an individually assessed liability; the Minister mentioned that it will be property by property.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, I fear that there will not be a great queue at the Minister’s door with open cheque books, and I suspect it will be necessary to move to plan B, because it is not just the cladding but an awful lot of other defects—

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

Will the noble Earl ask his question, please? There are other people waiting.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

Does the Minister agree that the only remaining viable route that is coherent across the piece is, in effect, the polluter pays amendment, the draft of which had the scrutiny of top legal minds, such as Daniel Greenberg QC? Furthermore, does he agree that this is the only means whereby the perverse habits of what is known in the trade as value engineering will become something of the past, and in future that the inculcation of consistently good construction methods will be the lasting legacy of Grenfell?