EU Council

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 17th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I join the Leader of the House and the Prime Minister in sending deepest condolences to President Obama and the people of the United States. The Connecticut shooting was an appalling tragedy, and all the families affected are in our thoughts as they cope with their loss and grief.

I am grateful to the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement on the European Council given to the other place by the Prime Minister. I shall touch upon three main areas: Syria, banking union and the wider context of treaty change.

Let me associate these Benches with the concern expressed in the Statement about the ongoing loss of life in Syria. The international community must continue to work together to end these atrocities immediately and speak with one voice in favour of a transition to a new Government. The noble Lord mentioned the arms embargo while also noting that Syria is attracting,

“a new cohort of Al Qaeda-linked extremists”.

In that context, are the Government urging the EU to end its arms embargo or merely to amend its terms? Do the Government recognise the dangers inherent in this?

We welcome the agreement on the next steps on banking union. It is right for the European Central Bank to have a supervisory role in the eurozone. However, does the Leader agree that the most important issue is not who supervises which banks, but who takes responsibility for bailing out failing banks in the euro area? That is what will deliver the firewall that we need between bank and sovereign risk. Did the Government make the case for urgency on this matter at the Council?

It is good that progress was made to protect the integrity of the single market. Was there discussion at the Council of how the new system will cope in the event of changing circumstances; for example, if more countries join the banking union and, in particular, if EU members currently outside the eurozone join the banking union and the “out” group shrinks to three or four member states?

Beyond questions of banking, is not the real issue for Europe the failure to deliver a plan for growth? The Minister mentioned a list of disparate steps, but on a real comprehensive plan for growth, we saw no progress, just as we saw no progress on wider eurozone political and economic integration. All the Council did was set a timetable—June 2013—to set a timetable.

For some considerable time we have been promised a long-awaited speech on Europe by the Prime Minister. We are now told it is being delayed again—that is three times. First it was set for the Conservative Party’s autumn conference, but we understand the FCO intervened. Then it was set for before the EU budget negotiations and now we hear that he has delayed it again, this time until the new year. In the absence of the Prime Minister’s speech, will the Leader of the House answer three simple questions?

First, the Foreign Secretary has said about an in/out referendum,

“this proposition is the wrong question at the wrong time … It would create additional economic uncertainty in this country at a difficult economic time”.

We agree with the Foreign Secretary. Does the Conservative Party? Secondly, the Prime Minister said last week:

“I don’t want Britain to leave the European Union”.

We agree with the Prime Minister, but why does he let member after member of his Cabinet brief that they are open to leaving the EU, including most recently the Education Secretary? Thirdly, British business is deeply concerned that the drift in the noble Lord's party and the direction of its policy mean that we are sleepwalking towards exit. We share that deep concern. Do the Government? The repeated postponement of the Prime Minister’s speech catches the point about the Government—at least the Conservative part of the coalition—on Europe. They are caught between the national interest for staying in and the Conservative Party, so many of whom want out. Britain deserves better.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for what she said at the start of her speech, joining us—as I am sure the whole House does—in sending our deepest condolences after the horrors and tragedy that occurred in America. Our hearts must go out to these families and to the nation as a whole. As for the questions that the noble Baroness raised about Syria, particularly the arms embargo, I am glad to say that we think it is right to look at the arms embargo and seek to amend its terms. It is right to keep the embargo against the regime. We will see how matters unfold over the next few weeks and months, and join our colleagues and partners in the EU and beyond in making sure that we come to the right decisions on this question.

The key to the noble Baroness’s speech was what happened at the European Council, particularly on banking union and the future relationship between this Government and the EU. The most important aspect of the banking union is that there has been a big breakthrough: non-eurozone members will have a say on eurozone rules that could affect them. Before this council, many people said that we would not achieve that. As for the important question about changing circumstances, we have agreed that there should be a review of the decision rules when the number of non-participating members reaches four. That could be some time away. Subsequently we have ensured that this review will report to the European Council, where the decision about what to do next will be taken by consensus.

The noble Baroness asked what we were doing about growth. It will not be news to this House that all countries in Europe have immense fiscal challenges and we must focus on what can help best. We believe that some of the changes that we have effected over the past two and a half years, on international trade deals, deregulation and completing the single market are not designed just to help us here in Britain, but also the rest of Europe. There is good news on some of this; at least in the United Kingdom. There are more people working in the private sector than ever before and the number of those claiming the main out-of-work benefits has fallen by almost 200,000. That is all a step in the right direction.

The noble Baroness went on to ask three simple questions—she might have thought that they were simple, but they raise important issues for the future. On the question of an in/out referendum and what the Foreign Secretary has said, I do not think that any of that creates a great deal of uncertainty. It is an issue that is live in the country today. People are asking about it. I very much believe that neither option—in or out—is the right question to ask. Europe is in a state of flux. Enormous changes are going on as a result of the eurozone that will give us and people who think like us an opportunity to look ahead and gently to forge a Europe that will serve all the people of Europe in future.

The noble Baroness also most unfairly criticised the Prime Minister and the Government for not doing what British business wanted us to do. She felt that we are drifting towards the EU exit and that British business was uncomfortable with that. I do not accept either premise. We are not drifting to an exit from the EU; therefore, British business is not concerned about that. British business is concerned about increased regulation, centralisation and bureaucracy. Those are all things that we can agree on. The noble Baroness shakes her head, but when you talk to British businesses, those are the things that they are concerned about. They do not believe for one moment that we are about to leave the EU; and nor are we.

European Council

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 26th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I am increasingly at a loss to understand the noble Baroness’s party’s position on our great European home, particularly given her background in the European Commission. What did it do when it was in government? The Government in whose Cabinet she sat waved through above-inflation hikes to the previous EU budget; they gave away £7 billion of our rebate; they failed utterly and completely to get CAP reform in return; and they would not even use the veto to protect Britain’s interests. All that goes on top of the promise in 2005, let us not forget, of a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. As soon as they got in, they forgot all about that.

The noble Baroness, speaking on behalf of the Labour Party, said that we do not have an alliance. The only reason that we are having this kind of Statement today is that we have a strong alliance. We have the Dutch, the Swedes, the Danes, the Finns and the Germans all backing our position. I would rather be with them on this issue than with the Labour Party. One might well ask where Labour’s alliance is on all this. It seems to be muddled, with its leader in the European Parliament asking for more money in stark contrast to the leadership demonstrated by—

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I should point out that Labour MEPs in the European Parliament, led very ably, voted together with the Conservative Members of the European Parliament against an increase and in favour of a freeze.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it is amazing how quickly policy changes in the Labour Party when it is in opposition, but its leader in Europe called for us to contribute £1 billion more to the EU. Its MEPs voted against freezing last year’s budget at 2010 levels and its group in the Parliament has called for a 5% budget hike and new EU taxes. And then to our rebate—

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, that is not true. The leader of the group of European Socialists may well have voted in that way, but the leader of the British Socialists in the European Parliament, Glenis Willmott MEP, voted against, together with all British Labour MEPs.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I now wholly understand why I was confused. It just depends what kind of European Parliament socialist you are talking about. The noble Baroness also asked me about the real-terms freeze. We are of course in the middle of what will clearly be protracted and complicated negotiations. It is not possible for me to follow the noble Baroness into the detail of the numbers but we have said that we believe there is scope to reach agreement on a real-terms freeze, which would be a commendable objective to achieve. Furthermore, on the composition of the budget, if you look at the figures on agricultural policy, we were happy to go along with a cut from €336 billion to around €270 billion, which, with an added contribution from the Commission’s administration savings, would have been sufficient. However, for some other European colleagues, that was a cut too far on the CAP and it was not accepted.

I finish by dealing with the conclusions of the noble Baroness. She accused us of trying to do backdoor deals with UKIP. I can confirm that there are no backdoor deals with UKIP or indeed with anybody else. As for the Prime Minister being undermined by members of the Cabinet, I absolutely assure the noble Baroness that he does not feel in the least bit undermined by anything that anybody has said because we have a completely united view that we should operate with British interests and in the best interests of the British taxpayer. That is what happened at the end of last week in the European Council budget negotiations and it is what we will continue doing in the future.

Electoral Registration Data Schemes (No. 2) Order 2012

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 19th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

First of all, to avoid any doubt because it is important to be clear, I can confirm that the Bill has not been abandoned; it has been postponed. When the Government have come to a conclusion that it should continue, the House will be informed in the normal way, either on the Order Paper or in an edition of Forthcoming Business. However, I can lend some comfort to the noble Lord, Lord Grocott. Although the current edition does not propose a date for the Bill, it includes plenty of other government business that we can get on with.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I do not wish to prolong this, but I wish to say—because the Leader keeps quoting my noble friend Lady Jay in our exchanges, and I fully respect what my noble friend said when she was a very fine Leader of this House—that it is ultimately for this House to decide on the admissibility of an amendment, because this House, ultimately, is self-regulating.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 5th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I invite the noble Baroness to speak. If noble Lords opposite listen, they will understand precisely why I am posing it. On the last occasion that a Conservative Back-Bencher insisted on tabling an amendment against the advice of the Clerks, the then Leader of the House drew the matter to the attention of the House, as the Leader is required to do, and asked the House to endorse the opinion of the Clerks and, thereby, maintain our customs and procedures. The Leader of the Opposition unreservedly supported the Leader of the House, and the Clerks’ advice, and the Back-Bencher concerned did not move his amendment. The noble Lord was my noble friend Lord Trefgarne; the Leader of the House was the noble Baroness, Lady Jay of Paddington; and the Leader of the Opposition was me. Will today’s Leader of the Opposition tell us whether she will respect the role and advice of the Clerks, as her predecessors have always done?

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I thank the Leader of the House for his Business Statement seeking to explain why the House is again not dealing with the business that it—and indeed the Leader of the House—was expecting to consider. Your Lordships’ House expected on Wednesday of last week to consider the second day in Committee of the Government’s Electoral Registration and Administration Bill. Instead, it was given an explanation by the Leader of why that would not be the case. During the course of his remarks in the Chamber, he said of the postponed business:

“I expect the business to be taken next Monday”.—[Official Report, 31/10/12; col. 622.]

That is today. However, as we know, today’s Order Paper yet again does not feature the Electoral Registration and Administration Bill. Instead, we have a further Business Statement from the noble Lord.

In the light of today’s wholly inadequate Statement from the Leader of the House, it is transparently clear where the disorder is on this matter. It is on the Conservative Benches opposite. Within the coalition, it is clear that the Liberal Democrats are standing by their declared position that they will oppose the Government’s proposed changes to Commons parliamentary constituency boundaries, and the boundary reviews that would put them into effect. We on these Benches oppose them also. So do noble Lords on all sides of the House.

The Leader of the House, in his Statement last week, attempted to paint a picture of the amendment to the ERA Bill that would retimetable the boundary reviews as stemming only from these Benches. This House knows that the amendment was signed by four Members of your Lordships’ House: my noble friend Lord Hart of Chilton, a senior lawyer and former adviser to two Lord Chancellors; the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, a former Permanent Secretary at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office; the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, a former chief executive of the Liberal Democrats; and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, a former leader of Plaid Cymru. Each is from a different part of the House; all are Members of the House who are highly distinguished and highly respected; and all are putting forward the amendment on boundary reviews.

There are a number of important issues here. On the merits of the amendment, the Government would be better advised to put their effort and money into improving the electoral register, and into making sure that as many citizens as possible are able to—and do—take part in our country’s democracy rather than into gerrymandering the voting system. We know that there are a number of views on the issue of admissibility and relevance. I hope that as many noble Lords as possible have read the legal opinion that we on these Benches commissioned, and last week placed in the Library of the House, which makes it crystal clear that the amendment to the Bill is both highly relevant and admissible.

The Leader invited me to give my opinion and say what I would do. I stand by the amendment as tabled. While I entirely respect the Clerks of the House, who are excellent, this does not mean to say that their view cannot be questioned. In this instance, having read the advice in the letter from the Clerks, and the quotations from Erskine May, I believe that we are right to ask the four noble Lords in question to continue with the amendment.

What characterises these and other issues is simple: this House should discuss them. It should consider the amendment, and the issues raised by it—but it is not doing so. Instead, and for the second time—in a move that we believe to be unprecedented—the Government have pulled the Bill from the Order Paper. Why have they done so? We have heard no satisfactory explanation from the Leader of the House. I hear that the actual reason is that time could not be found for the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister to meet to consider the issues ahead of the Prime Minister’s visit to the Gulf today. Even if that is the case, it is not a sufficient explanation: not sufficient for the workings of government, and absolutely not sufficient for the relationship between the Executive and the legislature. Parliament is not the plaything of government: in particular, Parliament is not the plaything of a political party in trouble. By yet again pulling consideration of this Bill because of the amendment being proposed to it by distinguished Members from all sides of your Lordships’ House, the Conservative Party, for party-political reasons, seeks to subvert the constitutional role and practice of this House. The Conservative Party seeks to prevent a discussion that this House wants to have.

One of the roles of Parliament is to protect the public interest against, if necessary, an overweening Executive. In this case, the public interest is clear: it is not in the public interest for the system of parliamentary democracy in the country to be shrouded in a lack of clarity, which the Conservatives’ position on boundary changes has produced. MPs, candidates, political parties and, most importantly the public, need certainty in the electoral system.

There is a further issue. In casting around for matters to be put on the Order Paper today in place of the ERA Bill, the Government have alighted on three issues: the role of the Armed Forces, policies on planning, and the fate of the British ash tree. They are all extremely important issues, but in a part-time, voluntary House, where Members have to arrange their time, it is a discourtesy to your Lordships' House to bring in, without any material consultation, debates in this way on matters about which many Members of this House may be interested, just to fill a party-political gap.

In what it is doing in relation to this Bill, the Conservative Party is seeking to subvert democracy. It should simply stop trying to do so now. I invite the Leader of the House, in his response to the issues raised in the Chamber this afternoon, to stop treating your Lordships’ House in the way that it has done so far on this Bill and stop running scared of this House considering, debating and, if necessary, dividing on these issues. It must stop treating this House as if it were a plaything of the Executive, face up to its responsibility to Parliament and set a firm date very soon for the Committee stage of the Bill—a date that it will stick to and a date that will allow this House to get on with the business that it wants to consider.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, first, the Government have not pulled this from the Order Paper: it is important that the House should recognise that. Secondly, it was never on the Order Paper. If any noble Lord can demonstrate how it was on the Order Paper, I would like to see it. But it was not on the Order Paper and has not been pulled from the Order Paper. That is the first accusation that is wrong.

Secondly, the usual channels were told on Thursday evening, which is plenty of time to let noble Lords know. Thirdly, on Thursday afternoon, we had a debate in this House about the lack of topicality of debates. Well today we have enabled the House to have a most topical series of debates.

But let us deal with the substantive nature of this. The noble Baroness said that the Government are perverting democracy. Perverting democracy in the House of Lords? That is a strange one. Secondly, the noble Baroness said that the review was simply about boundaries. It is not. It is a review to reduce the size of the House of Commons to save a considerable amount of taxpayers’ money and rebalance the number of Members of Parliament throughout the United Kingdom.

I return to the central point of my speech. Today, the noble Baroness, the Leader of the Opposition, who held this post as Leader of the House only two and half years ago, said that she will now ignore the instructions and the advice of the parliamentary Clerks.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I know many other noble Lords will wish to come in, but I would say three things. First, the debate was on the Forthcoming Business of this House and on the green sheet. Secondly, the House is an integral part of our democratic system. Thirdly, I did indeed very proudly hold the position of Leader of the House. But I believe that when I did so I acted in the interests of the whole House—the House as a whole.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Wednesday 31st October 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, before we continue with the rest of the day’s business, I should like to make a short business statement.

The House will notice from the Order Paper that the main business today is no longer the second day in Committee on the Electoral Registration and Administration Bill, as we were expecting. Instead, we shall have a short day to consider the fast-tracked Mental Health (Approval Functions) Bill.

The reason for not proceeding today with the Electoral Registration and Administration Bill is that late yesterday the noble Lord, Lord Hart of Chilton, tabled an amendment, printed as Amendment 28A on a supplementary sheet as it was too late to be included in the Marshalled List. Its intention is to change the date for the report from the Boundary Commission on parliamentary constituencies from before 1 October 2013 to not before 1 October 2018.

It became apparent to me in the course of yesterday evening that the advice of the Public Bill Office to the noble Lord, Lord Hart, was that his amendment was inadmissible and should not be tabled because it was not relevant to the Bill. It is worth pointing out that if a similar situation arose in the Commons and the clerks there came to a similar view, the clerks would advise the Speaker that the amendment was out of scope and inadmissible, and the amendment would simply not be moved. In our self-regulating House, we rely on Members taking the advice of the Public Bill Office. The Companion makes this clear:

“The Public Bill Office advises on whether an amendment is admissible and it is expected that this advice will be taken”.

The noble Lord, Lord Hart, has however, insisted that the amendment be tabled against the advice not only of the Public Bill Office but of the Clerk of the Parliaments. The Companion provides that in the rare circumstances that a Member of this House tables an amendment against the advice of the clerks, it is for me, as Leader of the House, to ask the House to endorse the opinion of the Public Bill Office. If the amendment comes before the House when the Bill is next considered, I will readily invite the House to endorse that advice, as any Leader would be bound to do. However, that is not a decision for today.

Yesterday evening, I decided that, in view of the highly contentious nature of the amendment and the clear advice of the clerks, the House needed the opportunity to reflect on that advice before taking a decision on this matter. The Chief Whip withdrew the Bill from the Order Paper and informed the Opposition and the usual channels, and I have placed a copy of the advice from the Public Bill Office in the Library of the House. I would prefer an informed debate next week to an ill-informed, disorderly row today.

By the late tabling of an inadmissible amendment the noble Lord proposed to ask the House to act precipitately without notice and against the advice of the clerks. This is not how we should go about our work. These are the reasons why I have changed the business before us today, to enable the House to reflect carefully before it takes a decision either on the admissibility of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hart, or on its merits. I believe that it is a decision made in the best interests of the House.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I thank the Leader of the House for his statement seeking to explain why the House is not dealing today with the business it was expecting to consider—indeed, the business that the House should be considering today. Until this morning the Order Paper for today contained as first business after Questions the second day of the Committee stage of the Electoral Registration and Administration Bill. Yesterday lunchtime—not late, and well within the rules as set out in the Companion—noble Lords, Lord Hart of Chilton, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, Lord Rennard, and Lord Wigley, tabled an amendment to the Bill, the effect of which would be to delay for five years the proposed changes to parliamentary constituency boundaries for the election of Members to the House of Commons.

There was an issue on whether the amendment was within the scope of the Bill. The parliamentary clerks, serving your Lordships’ House argued that boundary changes were not relevant to registration. Supporters of the amendment considered that since boundaries are determined by the number of registered voters in an area, registration was highly relevant to boundary changes. The amendment’s supporters obtained written advice from Queen’s Counsel to this effect. That advice was provided to the clerks; they still disagreed.

We are not in the House of Commons, as the Leader of the House is oft wont to point out, and the House of Lords Companion stipulates that it is for your Lordships’ House itself, and no one else, to reach a decision on such contested issues about relevance. The supporters of the amendment have been scrupulous in ensuring that the clerks have had time to consider the issue. Some time during yesterday afternoon the Government became aware of the amendment. According to media reports, some time during the afternoon or early evening, there was communication between the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister about the amendment. At 8.18 pm last night my noble friend the Opposition Chief Whip received an e-mail from the Government Whips’ Office saying:

“Lord Bassam, the Leader has asked me to let you know that the order paper for tomorrow has changed and no longer contains the Electoral Administration Bill. The Mental Health (Approval Functions) Bill will thus be first (and only) business”.

That was the first intimation from the Government business managers of any change. There had been no consultation, as required by the Companion. An Order Paper was then published today without the Electoral Registration and Administration Bill on it. Those are the facts. They show not this self-regulating House determining its order of business, through the operational proxy for a self-regulating House of the usual channels, but the order of business in your Lordships’ House being determined by the Leader of the House. That is not right. That is not how this House conducts its business.

Of course, the Leader can have an influence on the order of business in the Lords—that is proper. After all he leads the government party whose business your Lordships’ House must consider. The Government are entitled to have their business considered, but in this case their business is not in jeopardy. The principle of the House of Lords determining its own business goes to the heart of its independence from the Government. That principle is reflected in the Companion. The Companion allows the Peer in whose name a notice is on the Order Paper to withdraw that notice, but that is intended to deal with cases when the Peer for some reason cannot carry out the business. It is not intended to override paragraph 3.30 of the Companion.

We understand that the Government are resting their case of their ability to pull business in this way on Standing Order No 42 (1)—a standing order passed as recently as 26 March 1852. The Government really need to do better than this. If they want to rearrange business, they should do so through the usual channels, as made clear in the Companion. The correct course for the Government last night was to seek agreement through the usual channels. If agreement was not forthcoming, the correct course would be for your Lordships’ House to be asked to agree the change of business today—in other words, for a statement to be made to the House which could then be debated, and if necessary challenged. I know that the noble Lord is making a statement today but it is after the publication of the new Order Paper.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it is interesting how two people can look at the same set of events and come to two completely different conclusions. However, it was ever thus.

It is worth pointing out for the record that I received the clerks’ formal advice at about ten-past eight last night. Less than 10 minutes later, my office informed the Opposition that the business for today had changed. I do not have to remind the House that my noble friend the Chief Whip is responsible for the arrangement of business. It is a commonplace but it is also set out in paragraph 3.30 of the Companion. Of course, we always try to work through the usual channels. The clerks this morning confirmed that the Chief Whip has authority to schedule government business, and only the Government can schedule government business. The Chief Whip can withdraw an item from the Order Paper at any time without first consulting the usual channels—and frequently does with secondary legislation and Back-Bench business.

Noble Lords must ask themselves what would have happened if the Government had tabled an amendment to their own Bill—which they do many times—with minimum notice, had received advice from the clerks that it was inadmissible and had demanded that the House should vote to overturn its own rules. The first people who would be rightly outraged by such an action would be noble Lords opposite. That is why I acted in the way that I did.

I cannot agree with the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition on her interpretation of how business is arranged, although, as she and I and the House know, the usual channels work on the overwhelming majority of occasions extremely well.

I expect the business to be taken next Monday—it is in the Forthcoming Business—but the most important thing at the moment is that there is scope for reflection by all sides before then. It is good to hear the noble Baroness say that we should bring forward government legislation. I can assure her that in the weeks and months ahead we shall have plenty more legislation.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

Perhaps I may respond briefly on three points. I hear what the noble Lord says, that he did not have the opinion from the clerks until eight o’clock last night, but as I say, we tabled—not we, but my noble friend and three other—

Business

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 16th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I rise to intervene on two separate points rather than make two separate interventions. The first is on the conduct of Members of your Lordships’ House and the second is on the Local Government Finance Bill, which the House is about to consider this afternoon.

On the first issue, allegations have been made in the media about a number of former senior service personnel and their readiness to lobby current Ministers and officials in the Ministry of Defence about defence procurement—in other words, paid advocacy. Two of those named are Members of your Lordships’ House. When similar allegations were made in January 2009 by the same newspaper, the Sunday Times, about a number of other Peers, the House took action against those individuals and toughened up our Code of Conduct in relation to paid advocacy. I wrote to the Leader of the House on this matter yesterday, asking him to make a statement.

These are serious matters. They were when we suspended Members of this House previously and they are now. The reputation of this House and Members of this House, and the conduct of Members of this House, is again being called into question. Experience of these matters shows that the best way to consider and resolve these issues is through the improved mechanism that we now have available, including the Lords Commissioner for Standards. I believe that Members of your Lordships’ House should be kept informed about issues such as these, and that is why I am raising this matter now.

The second issue is the Local Government Finance Bill. Based on a briefing given to Peers yesterday by the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, we understand that the Government propose to make an announcement in this House this afternoon on transitional funding in connection with council tax support schemes. We do not yet know the detail, but it is clear that the changes to the Bill, at this late stage, will be material. I understand that there was a Written Statement yesterday, but today represents the first opportunity for Members of this House to debate these issues. Accordingly, yesterday we wrote to the Leader of the House asking for assurances that at Third Reading, which is due next week, all Members of your Lordships’ House, including the Opposition, will be able to table and, if necessary, vote on amendments—new and substantive amendments —driven by the Government’s announcement today. We received a reply from the Leader of the House rejecting such an easement of usual procedure, with the result that Members of this House will not be able to table such amendments following today’s announcement by the Government. We do not believe that this is correct. We do not believe that such an insistence is to the benefit either of Members of this House or of this House carrying out its role of properly scrutinising this Bill. Accordingly, we ask the Leader of the House to reconsider his response and provide Members of this House with the opportunity to carry out their constitutional role.

I apologise for having to intervene in this way, and on two separate points, but I believe that both are important matters which are of concern to this House.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, I am surprised by the intervention of the Leader of the Opposition, particularly on the first question. These are enormously serious allegations that have been made against Members of this House. I happen to know that the noble Baroness asked the Lord Speaker for a PNQ on this matter and the request was turned down. I think that it is discourteous of the noble Baroness to have raised this issue because our rules do not provide for the second-guessing of a ruling on a PNQ by the Lord Speaker.

Since the noble Baroness was Leader of the House, this House has created a new code of practice and a new independent Commissioner for Standards. We should allow the new independent Commissioner for Standards to do his job, given his responsibilities, and to carry out any inquiries that he sees fit.

Secondly, on the Bill that we are dealing with today, it is completely standard practice for Governments to react to suggestions that have been made, to amendments that have been put down and debated in this House, in an attempt to be helpful to the House. That was the reply that I gave the noble Baroness. It is much better for the Report stage of this Bill to continue and for my noble friend the Minister to make whatever case she wishes to make as to why the Government have made this statement, and for the amendments to be taken in the order in which they were put down.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I think that what the noble Baroness is saying is that if the Government had not made a statement yesterday or this morning we would not have had this little debate at all, because we would have carried on with the amendments as they were. The Government are trying to be helpful. Surely the right time for this debate to continue is when we move into the Report stage. My noble friend can then make her position utterly clear and the House can take a view.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I rise to speak on both issues again. On the first point, these are of course deeply serious allegations, which is why I believe that the House should be informed. The process that we have now is absolutely correct; I am delighted that the procedure was changed; and I have the utmost confidence in the Commissioner for Standards. I just think that it is important that the House knows what is happening. I am glad that the noble Lord the Convenor of the Cross Benches was able to tell us what he has done; I am sure that the House is glad to know what has happened. We need to be open and transparent on these issues for the sake of the reputation of this House and its Members.

On the second point, I was merely being courteous in alerting the noble Lord to the fact that we would wish to table amendments at Third Reading and vote on them. I think that that is what the majority in the House would wish to do, which is why I wrote the letter yesterday.

House of Lords: Reform

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 8th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the hard work of many Members of this House and the other place to shape this Bill has of course inched us forward in this great debate, but Lords reform is now a matter for future Parliaments. I can confirm that the coalition will not be able to deliver Lords reform during this Parliament, which in a way seems extraordinary, given that more than 70% of the House of Commons voted in favour of the Bill at Second Reading.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, for tabling this PNQ but regret the fact that the Leader of the House did not make a full and proper Statement. For the Government to tell this House formally by means of a reply to a Private Notice Question that they have abandoned their legislation on further House of Lords reform is woefully inadequate. If the Lords had been sitting on 3 September, at the same time as the Commons, the Leader would have repeated the Statement.

I welcome the fact that the coalition has finally come to its senses and abandoned what was a bad Bill. I must say that for the Leader, in his piece in today’s House Magazine, to lambast Labour for the Bill’s failure is a bit rich. My party wants reform, but the right reform. Would the Leader agree that it is regrettable that the Deputy Prime Minister appears, in a fit of pique, to have ruled out any reforms to your Lordships’ House before the next election, including the Steel Bill?

Now that the Bill has gone the Government have time on their hands, so what are we going to do? Will the Leader therefore agree to an urgent meeting of the usual channels to examine the Government’s legislative programme strategically, and come up with proposals on planning and handling that will find favour with the whole House and ensure that we could respect the firm convention that this House will normally rise on legislating days by about 10 pm?

Procedure of the House

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 24th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

I apologise for intervening on this issue, but I wish to say something. I address my remarks to the noble Lord the Leader of the House rather than to the Lord Chairman. In view of the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Green, is going to be on television this evening and that he has written a letter to Mr Chris Leslie in the House of Commons, I thought it pertinent to raise this matter on the Floor of the House.

As a matter of procedure, the noble Lord the Leader of the House yesterday told your Lordships’ House in relation to the noble Lord, Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint:

“No Minister needs to be accountable to Parliament for their previous career”.—[Official Report, 23/7/2012; col. 482.]

However, in a letter to my honourable friend the shadow Financial Secretary to the Treasury, the noble Lord, Lord Green, does precisely that in giving, as a government Minister in an official letter from a government department, his views on HSBC and what he described as the “failures” of the bank, about which he says, “I share that regret”. If the noble Lord, Lord Green, can make that kind of point in a government letter—let alone what he might say in an interview on Sky television at 7 pm this evening—he should come to this House and make those points here. I therefore invite the Leader of the House, in the light of the actions today of the noble Lord, Lord Green, to make arrangements for the noble Lord, as a Minister and a Member of this House, to take the opportunity to come to this House tomorrow to dispel the questions that are being posed about his ministerial role.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, I think that it is worth replying to this. The noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition was kind enough to give me notice that she would raise this issue. There are two accusations against my noble friend Lord Green. The first is that he has written to Mr Chris Leslie, who is a Member of the House of Commons. The only reason why my noble friend Lord Green has written to Mr Leslie is because Mr Leslie wrote to him and he has simply replied. That strikes me as being entirely the right and correct thing to do.

The second accusation is that my noble friend has not come to this House to answer questions. The reason why my noble friend has not come to this House to answer questions is because none has been put to him on this subject.

The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, made much of the table of attendance and referred to my noble friend Lady Anelay. However, she happens to be the government Chief Whip, and if she was not here practically every day, I would want to know why. Incidentally, I also want to know why the Minister for Trade should spend all his time in here when his job is to do his best, banging the drum for British business—as the noble Lord, Lord Jones, used to remind us—rather than coming here. How many questions has the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, put down in the past 12 months to my noble friend Lord Green on matters of trade? I shall check the record later.

HSBC: Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 23rd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, Her Majesty’s Government have every confidence in my noble friend Lord Green ability to fulfil his ministerial duties. His experience, expertise and enthusiasm provide great benefit to the UK’s international profile and to the support that UK Trade and Investment provides to British businesses.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Leader of the House for that Answer. However, as the noble Lord will be aware, questions have been asked about the present ministerial role of the noble Lord, Lord Green, following the US Senate committee’s findings.

Paragraph 1.2 of the Ministerial Code, which sets out the responsibility of Ministers to Parliament, says that:

“Ministers should be as open as possible with Parliament and the public, refusing to provide information only when disclosure would not be in the public interest”.

Given that obligation, will the Leader of the House ask the noble Lord, Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint, to come to your Lordships’ House to place on record what he knew and when about the matters investigated by the US Senate committee, including what steps he took to deal with them? Would such a move not give the noble Lord, Lord Green, the opportunity to dispel once and for all the questions being asked about his present ministerial role?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I congratulate the Leader of the Opposition. I know that she has been trying to find a PNQ to put to the House and she has managed to do so. I am very glad to be able to respond on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government.

There is no urgency in this matter. The investigation started more than two years ago. The report in question was published two weeks ago. There was no evidence of personal wrongdoing of my noble friend; indeed, there was no personal criticism whatever of my noble friend. The investigation is ongoing. As for ministerial accountability, my noble friend Lord Green is accountable to this House—to Parliament—for the work he does as a Minister. However, many Ministers have had previous careers. No Minister needs to be accountable to Parliament for their previous career, only for what they are doing as a Minister.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, as a Minister for trade, my noble friend of course spends a great deal of time overseas. Since he was appointed, he has travelled to 42 countries and visited 73 cities. In his role as Minister of State for Trade and Investment, he has answered a total of 72 Parliamentary Questions, including two Oral Questions out of three that he could have answered. The response to the point raised by the noble Baroness is that if more Questions on trade and investment were put down, I am sure that my noble friend would be very happy to come and answer them.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his answers, but perhaps I may say that I found his initial response to my Question slightly patronising, albeit not in terms of the substance. I table PNQs when I believe that there is a matter of accountability which is of interest to this Parliament as a whole—we are the only House of Parliament sitting at the moment—and when I believe that it is of importance to this nation. I do not do so for personal gratification.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, if the noble Baroness felt that I was in any way seeking to patronise her, I apologise fully.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 17th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, the House of Commons rises today, as we all know, and noble Lords may recall that, during the Jubilee Recess when this House sat, the Government announced changes to tax policy to the media rather than to Parliament—that is to say, to our House. I would be grateful if the Leader of the House could reassure noble Lords that when the House of Commons has gone into recess any policy announcements will be made to this House, while it is sitting, as we are a House of Parliament, rather than to the media first. We shall be vigilant with regard to any sneaky Statements that might come out.

I also take this opportunity to wish a very happy birthday to the Chief Whip, the noble friend of the Leader of the House.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, I am sure that the whole House will join in those very happy returns to the Captain of the Honourable Corps of the Gentlemen at Arms.

There is no desire on the Government’s part to produce any sneaky Statements at all when the House of Commons is not sitting. Of course, this House will be sitting next week and any Statements, Urgent Questions or PNQs will be taken in the normal way.

EU Council

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 2nd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, perhaps I may clarify to my noble friend that there will be two Statements this afternoon, the second of which will be repeated by my noble friend Lord Sassoon, as is laid out on the screens, and will come immediately after Back-Bench time on this Statement.

As ever, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for her remarks. She asked plenty of questions and I shall try to deal with them fully. She expressed dissatisfaction at the Prime Minister having said that there should be an inquiry into banking and the LIBOR problem, because it was the wrong sort of inquiry. She said that her party would put down an amendment to a Bill before this House. She expressed disappointment with what the Government were doing, which is a pity, because I would have thought that one place where there is a good deal of expertise was in Parliament. To have a Joint Committee of both Houses looking at this matter, with Members of our Economics Affairs Committee sitting with their colleagues in the House of Commons, should surely be enormously welcome. It should also be able to respond quickly. We hope that it will get to work straightaway, call witnesses over the next few months and report by Christmas so that recommendations can be included in the Vickers Bill in the New Year. That seems to be an appropriate way forward.

The noble Baroness asked for our thoughts on Syria. She correctly recognised what a difficult situation it is. The situation remains grave, with hundreds of people dying every week. However, the Foreign Secretary was engaged this weekend in intensive talks in Geneva on a transition plan which included the Foreign Ministers of Russia, China, and other countries. The result is one step forward, which is worth having. We agreed with Russia and China that there should be a transitional unity Government in Syria, which should be made up of people from the present Government, the opposition, and other groups on the basis of mutual consent. It would of course exclude President Assad. We must now try very hard to bring this about. We are putting a great deal of energy into doing so, but nobody is under any illusions of just how complex all of this going to be, given the situation that exists in Syria.

The noble Baroness, the Leader of the House—

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

If only!

[Lord Strathclyde]

Sorry, the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition, the former Leader of the House, also talked about the Europe of jobs and growth. She said that the Prime Minister could not deliver this in the United Kingdom, and asked why he therefore thought he could deliver it in Europe. That is to completely misunderstand what this Government have been doing, and, of course, to misunderstand quite deliberately. We want to rebalance the economy, with private sector growth taking the place of government deficits. We want prosperity shared across all parts of the UK. We want to become a world leader in advanced manufacturing and knowledge-based industries and services, and to remain the world’s leading centre for financial services. We have done this by cutting corporation tax, ensuring access to finance, dealing with the red-tape challenge, and many other brave and sensible pieces of action which will take the Government forward, from where we were under Labour’s misrule towards long-term growth and prosperity based on real jobs.

The noble Baroness asked about the European Patent Office. She said that it was not going to be based in London. This has been discussed and debated for over 23 years. It is an area in which Britain excels. The Council has decided that the patent office should be based in three parts of the European Union: in London, Paris and Munich. The most significant part of it as far as we are concerned—pharmaceutical and life science industries—will be based here in London. It will bring a turnover of over £100 million-worth in legal services into the United Kingdom.

Much of what the noble Baroness asked about concerned the referendum. I have believed for a long time that the real muddle on European policy lies in the party opposite, and not in our party at all. We said that an in/out referendum is not the answer right now, and we stick to that. A referendum on a choice between the status quo and coming out completely when Europe is changing would be the wrong choice. It would be a bad time to make a decision. Europe is changing a great deal, probably more so currently than it has done for very many years. Indeed, it is entirely right for my right honourable friend the Prime Minister to look at how we want to change our relationship with Europe, and as the end point becomes clear, to consult the British people either in a general election or a referendum. I regard that as a very strong position. If the Labour Party disagrees with consulting the British people, they should say so.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 2nd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I wish to apologise. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Foulkes for bringing these issues to the attention of the House. We have had a very worthwhile discussion but I wish to place on record my thanks to the government Chief Whip. As I understand it, it was at the Opposition’s request that the Statement was promptly at 4 pm, for the convenience of some Members of my Benches and of the whole House. I do not wish to cast aspersions on the Leader of the House when, in fact, I should be the one taking the blame.

[Lord Strathclyde]

I am very grateful for that. I have very broad shoulders on these things, but it demonstrates that I made yet another mistake in giving way to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes.

As for the noble Lord, Lord Myners, let everybody just remember what his role was in all this as a very senior Minister in the Treasury in the previous Government.

House of Lords Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, having read what Mr Miliband said in support of the prospect of reform, I was surprised by much of what the noble Baroness said this afternoon. I was very impressed with what Mr Miliband said yesterday. He pledged the Labour Party’s support for the Second Reading of the Bill, even before he had had an opportunity to see it. Perhaps when he has read it, he will decide to support a programme Motion to rush it through the House of Commons and into this House as quickly as possible.

The noble Baroness asked whether this should be a priority. It has been hanging around for so long that we have to get around to it at some stage. It started in 1998-99 as a great priority of the previous Government. They published their last White Paper in 2008. I dare say that if the Labour Party had won the election it would have brought forward a Bill. This coalition has decided that it is time to bring this debate to an end and to ask Parliament what its view is, and it is right that we should do so.

There is also the bizarre suggestion that when important things are happening, Parliament cannot decide on other important issues. It is worth reflecting that on 6 and 7 June 1944, the House of Lords was debating the all-important Butler Education Act on Second Reading. Of course, getting growth into the economy is important, but that is not going to be done just in Parliament; it is going to be done by businesses and entrepreneurs up and down the country.

The noble Baroness reiterated the Labour Party’s view that what is most important in reform is that the House should be 100% elected. Respectfully, we disagree, as did the Joint Committee. Although she did not say that the powers between the Houses should be codified, I think that is what she meant. Again, respectfully, we disagree. She said that there should be a referendum. We see no case whatever for a referendum on the issue. Parliament should decide. It would cost £80 million to have a referendum on this issue, which was included as part of all three main parties’ political manifestos. I urge the Opposition to have more confidence in their manifesto, which is only two years old. I hate to point out to noble Lords opposite that there were no referendums in 1958 or 1999, when the composition of the House was changed, and we see no case for one now.

On the question of primacy, it is true that the Joint Committee had a substantial debate on Clause 2, helped by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the Government reflected on that. That is why we have changed the Bill in this way. This is in part because this Bill is about the composition of a reformed House of Lords and the transition arrangements for getting there. It is not about the functions, powers and role of the two Houses, which we would like to see remain unaffected by that change. The Bill clearly states that the Parliament Acts of 1911 and 1949 will continue to apply after the introduction of elected Members.

The Parliament Acts underpin the primacy of the House of Commons in statute. They limit the legislative power of the Lords and ensure that any Administration with a majority in the Commons can ultimately pass legislation without agreement of the House of Lords. We are not aware of any further constitutional implications of repealing the preamble to the 1911 Act.

On the questions of cost raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, she rightly pointed out that the cost of election was excluded from the cost of the House; it stands at £85.7 million every five years. We believe that at the end of the transition period the projected additional annual cost of the House of Lords will be £13.6 million. Of course there will be other associated costs during the course of transition. As for pay, there is something inherently useful about the current arrangements whereby Peers have a daily allowance, and we wish to replicate that through a per diem salary that would be paid monthly in arrears but would be assessed on daily attendance in this House.

In the course of the next few months, there will be many opportunities to discuss some of these issues, but it is also right for the House of Commons now to take its view. I have no idea when the House of Commons is going to discuss these issues, and whether it will be early or late in the autumn. We also have work to do and we should get on with that before dealing with the Bill when it gets to us some time in the winter.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, for the avoidance of doubt can I say explicitly that if my Government had been in power now and had faced the economic situation which the country faces now, this would not have been at the top of our priorities and we would not be discussing this Bill in the House of Commons today?

G20 Summit

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 25th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, the Leader of the House, for repeating a Statement given in the other place by the Prime Minister on the recent G20 meeting. Unusually, I did not see a copy of the Statement in advance. I am not complaining, but it does make life rather difficult.

I will start with the foreign policy issues. On the Falklands, there is support from this side of the House for the absolute need to protect the principle of self-determination of the islanders. On Syria, there is deep concern on all sides of the House about the continued failure of the Annan plan to deliver a cessation of violence, and there is cross-party consensus on the appalling nature of the Assad regime and the need for the toughest sanctions against Syria. We welcome today’s extension of EU sanctions but given the urgent need for an immediate end to the dreadful and escalating hostilities, does the noble Lord the Leader of the House agree that it is now vital that the wider international community unites around the need for the toughest sanctions against Syria?

The Prime Minister said in his press conference that:

“President Putin has been explicit that he is not locked into Assad remaining in charge in Syria”.

If correct, this clearly represents an important step forward. However, Foreign Minister Lavrov said afterwards in a statement that these comments did not “correspond with reality”. Can the Leader of the House clarify the position?

I now turn to the main business of the summit—the economy. With our country in double-dip recession, with world growth slowing and with the eurozone crisis, if ever there was a time for the international community to come together and act, this was it. All we got from this summit was more of the same: drift and inaction in the face of a global crisis. The Prime Minister claimed afterwards that the summit had made “important progress” on a number of issues,

“on the Eurozone, on the lack of global growth and on the rise of protectionism”.

This sounded familiar. Then we realised why—because the Prime Minister said exactly the same after the last summit, in Cannes last November.

The Prime Minister now says:

“In terms of the slide towards protectionism, I think that has been halted”.

Can the Leader of the House confirm that the Prime Minister told us precisely the same thing in November? That summit was a success because action had been taken to,

“stop the slide to protectionism”.

That was a great triumph—the slide that had been stopped last November has been halted again.

On global growth, the Cannes summit communiqué said that,

“should global economic conditions materially worsen”,

countries should,

“agree to take discretionary measures to support domestic demand”.

Well, global conditions have worsened and therefore, being true to that communiqué, this G20 should have been a coming together of world leaders to work for a co-ordinated plan for jobs and growth. And what did we get? The communiqué just repeated the same words:

“Should economic conditions deteriorate significantly further, those countries with sufficient fiscal space stand ready to coordinate and implement discretionary fiscal actions to support domestic demand”.

No change, no action.

On the eurozone, I note that the Statement says:

“As full members of the European Union, and a significant net contributor to its budget it is vital that we speak plainly about what needs to happen”.

I think that our partners would have listened to us more if the Prime Minister had not decided to use the veto that never was in December. Actions for short-term political gain have long-term consequences.

The Prime Minister said that while this was not a European Council meeting, progress was made with,

“significant agreements. Now the eurozone countries need to get on and implement them”.

But is not the reality that there is no agreement on the main issues of substance, such as how to recapitalise Spanish banks; how the European Central Bank can stand behind member countries; how to prevent the escalation of problems in bond markets; or how to boost the size of the firewall fund to make it work? Instead, we had more of the same.

For people here at home, the economic reality is that things are getting worse, not better, and there is nothing in this summit’s conclusions to make any difference to that. And there is a simple reason why there was nothing for Britain at this summit: because we have a Prime Minister, and a Government, who simply argue for more of the same. What a contrast with France, where the president is passionate about growth, understanding that it is a prerequisite for dealing with deficits. Austerity is not working; with Britain in a double-dip recession, one of only two G20 countries in that position, can the Leader of the House tell us whether at the G20 the Government were actually arguing for anything different from what they were arguing for last November? From today’s Statement, it does not look as though they were.

Can the Leader of the House confirm that at the time of the Cannes summit, UK growth for 2012 was forecast to be 1.2% and that now the average of independent forecasts is just 0.3%? On the world economy, what this summit needed was a co-ordinated plan to generate greater growth, but the international community is divided between those who want a move towards greater growth and jobs and those whose answer to the failure of the last two years is simply more of the same. I fear that, on this issue, this Government and this Prime Minister are on the wrong side of that argument.

There is one important lesson for the Government from the last week. A global summit in the face of an economic hurricane needs action, not words. The reality is that the Government and the Prime Minister have come back from this summit with nothing for Britain—nothing to cope with double-dip recession, nothing to help Britain’s families and nothing to ensure growth in the world economy. I trust that when the Prime Minister returns from the European summit next week he has growth at the top of his Statement and agenda. Britain deserves more than was achieved at the G20 summit, and we deserve a change of direction; a change of economic strategy; a change that puts action first, not words; and a change that puts jobs and growth first.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition is on good form today. Typically, she sees a socialist president being elected in France, looks over the water and believes that everything over there is going swimmingly. However, she has not read what the good president has said. He said that,

“national debt is the enemy of the left and the enemy of France”.

We agree with that. Mr Hollande would balance France’s budget faster than the coalition plans for the United Kingdom. When asked how he would stimulate growth, the French President said, “The means cannot be extra public spending since we want to rein it in”. We can agree with that; the noble Baroness and her party cannot.

We very much welcome the noble Baroness’s support on the Falklands and Syria. The situation in Syria is immensely dangerous, difficult and complicated. We are still discussing with key partners what more we can do, including in the United Nations, to support the Annan plan. There remain differences over sequencing and the exact shape of how a potential transition can take place but we have put in place a strong EU arms embargo, are closely tracking other shipments to Syria and want to work with countries and companies around the world to stop them. We have had useful conversations with Russia but the key thing is to get together, to work together and to try to implement the Annan plan, if at all possible.

I rather admire the fact that the noble Baroness’s research led her to spot that some of the words in this communiqué were the same as those used at the Cannes summit. She read that as signifying that nothing had changed. However, it may also prove some admirable consistency emanating out of G20 summits in that there are still common problems with which to deal, and they are going to be dealt with.

The noble Baroness took a pot shot at what my right honourable friend the Prime Minister did at the EU summit at the end of December, which was not to sign up to the communiqué. As I said at the time, the reason my right honourable friend did not sign that communiqué was because he believed in protecting British interests, which is what he did. The noble Baroness and her party would have signed it and, we believe, would have sold vital British interests down the river.

The G20 was a success in the sense that many of these gatherings are a success as an opportunity for the leaders of different countries to discuss some of the key issues facing the world and to try to come to an agreement. There was no shying away from the fact that one of the most difficult issues facing the world at the moment is the problems in the eurozone. We have come up with what we believe to be helpful and constructive words to try to encourage the eurozone to find a solution in preparation for the European Council later this week. However, in the end, the countries in the eurozone have to make those decisions themselves.

House of Lords: Behaviour in the Chamber

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Thursday 21st June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I understand the point that the noble Baroness makes. In 1999, the average attendance at the House of Lords was 350; in 2005, it was 400; in the previous Session it was 475; so we can see the increase there. However, as far as behaviour is concerned, more than half of the Peers appointed since the general election have not attended any of the induction seminars offered by the Clerk of the Parliaments. I have written to them, encouraging them to do so. I am glad to say that the Clerk of the Parliaments will be resuming a further series of seminars in the autumn and I would very much encourage them to go along.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

Like the noble Lord the Leader, I welcome the fact that this House is more assertive in terms of interventions, but it is not so different from how it was in the past. I well recall that my noble and learned friend Lady Scotland was intervened on 20 times in one speech. I would like to put that on the record. Does the noble Lord agree that if more recommendations from the Goodlad report on working practices were agreed to and implemented perhaps that would assist with behaviour in the House?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, many of the recommendations in the Goodlad report on working practices have been agreed, but quite a lot of them have been rejected by the House. The Procedure Committee will no doubt wish to take that into account.

Business

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 29th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, the issue of policy announcements being made when Parliament is not sitting was raised by my noble friend Lord Eatwell, but, naturally, the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, did not address it.

Perhaps I may read a brief extract from the Ministerial Code. It states:

“When Parliament is in session, the most important announcements of Government policy should be made in the first instance, in Parliament … Every effort should be made to avoid leaving significant announcements to the last day before a recess”.

Why then did the policy changes in relation to VAT have to be made now? If they did, why did the Government not adhere to the Ministerial Code and make the announcement to Parliament? We are one of the Houses of Parliament.

I mention in passing an article by the Chancellor in today’s Daily Mail in which he announces a profound change in policy, some of which I am sure is very welcome, in relation to courts’ and coroners’ proceedings being conducted in secret. Why was that announcement made in the Daily Mail today and not to Parliament?

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, on the latter part I think the noble Baroness will find that a Bill will be published soon on this matter. On the first point, which is significant, she said, quite rightly, that the Ministerial Code says that important and significant announcements should be made to Parliament first. The issue on the pasty tax is of course very good news; on the caravan tax, it is also very good news to those who live in and own static caravans. I do not think that it is the most significant or important decision that this Government have ever made. I suspect, although I do not know for certain, that the Treasury felt this was not the most significant announcement to make and therefore did not inform Parliament by way of an Oral Statement.

Principal Deputy Chairman of Committees

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Wednesday 9th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, with his vast experience, I know that my noble friend Lord Boswell of Aynho will take on this role exceedingly ably.

It is a great pleasure at this point to pay tribute to his predecessor, the noble Lord, Lord Roper. The work of the European Union Committee is very highly regarded not only within this House but among national parliaments across the EU, and that is due in no small part to the skill and dedication of its chairman. The noble Lord was exceptionally well qualified for the chairmanship of the European Union Committee. To pick just two highlights from his CV, in the 1990s he was the first director of the Institute for Security Studies in Paris, and in this House he was the Liberal Democrat Chief Whip from 2001 to 2005. From there it was a natural progression to becoming the chairman of the foreign affairs sub-committee, and in December 2008 the chairman of the Select Committee. As chairman, the noble Lord has steered the committee through a pivotal time for national parliaments in the EU, not to mention testing times for the European Union as a whole. Under the Lisbon treaty, national parliaments were given new powers as the guardians of subsidiarity, and the noble Lord, Lord Roper, directed the adaptation of the committee’s work to these new powers and responsibilities. He has done that, as he has done all his work, with good humour, good sense and impressive attention to detail. I know that the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to him.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I, too, warmly welcome to the role of Deputy Chairman of Committees the noble Lord, Lord Boswell of Aynho. I know that his long-standing interest in and involvement with Europe will stand him in good stead for the job, as of course it did for the noble Lord, Lord Roper. He has extraordinary and deep knowledge, and he is held in the highest regard throughout the European Union as well as in this House. The noble Lord, Lord Roper, has steered the European Union Committee with his customary skill, knowledge and courtesy throughout his period as its chair. He has been applying all of those qualities to managing the House’s current proposals to do some redrawing of its committees with considerable success. I know that that has caused the noble Lord and members of the committee pain, but I am grateful for the way in which he carried out the change.

We on these Benches, where, we suspect, despite his shift 30 years ago, perhaps part of his heart still lies, thank him for all that he has done and we wish him well for the future.

House of Lords Reform

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 23rd April 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, before formally moving the Business of the House Motion on the Order Paper, I should like to make a short business Statement about forthcoming business.

The whole House is now well aware that the Joint Committee on the draft House of Lords Reform Bill published its long-awaited report this morning. The Government are not only deeply grateful to the committee but would like to single out its chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Richard, for the time, effort and expertise that have gone into the preparation of this report. I know that the Deputy Prime Minister and his ministerial colleagues will be considering the report with great care before proposing a Bill to the Cabinet.

I am equally conscious that noble Lords around the House are eager to debate the report at the earliest opportunity. I have considered this with the usual channels and, although there will be plenty of opportunities to debate the report from the Joint Committee, subject to the completion of our legislative business by the end of Thursday of this week, I propose that we should start with a debate on the Joint Committee’s report, led by the noble Lord, Lord Richard, on Monday of next week.

I should add that should the Queen’s Speech on 9 May include a Bill to reform the composition of this House, there will be a further opportunity to debate the Government’s proposals in light of the Joint Committee’s report in the course of the debate on the humble Address—that is to say, in about a fortnight’s time. These two imminent occasions for debate may well be followed by others over the course of the next Session, for which I know a few noble Lords may be limbering up. I hope that we will manage to complete our legislative business by Thursday so I look forward to next week’s debate. In the mean time, I take the opportunity of reminding the House that copies of the Joint Committee’s report are available in the Printed Paper Office and, most importantly, on the Parliament website.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord the Leader for his business Statement and I welcome the fact that the Leader, with the agreement of the usual channels, is hoping to make time available for a debate on the report of the Joint Committee on the Government’s draft House of Lords Reform Bill. I am sure that the debate will also cover the alternative report, which was published today. However, I am sorry that the Leader of the House has chosen not to make a fuller Statement on the Joint Committee report today.

Before the Recess, I urged the Government both to make time for a debate on further reform of your Lordships’ House, which the noble Lord has done, and to recognise the fact that Members of your Lordships’ House would wish today, as the House returns from a prolonged Recess, to have an initial discussion on these issues. I recognise the fact that we will have many debates on this issue in the House in the weeks and months to come.

I think that this House, and indeed many beyond the House, will find it hard to understand why all sorts of people and organisations have been debating these matters today, and yet, apart from the noble Lord’s brief business Statement, this House is not afforded an opportunity today to speak further about the issue. Indeed, the Leader was on “The Daily Politics” show and in recent days we have heard many things about a revolt by Conservative MPs on the 1922 Committee. We have seen various reports of a revolt being joined first by MPs, then by parliamentary Private Secretaries—many things have been happening.

We have been told that the Deputy Prime Minister is saying that he “won’t go to war” over Lords reform and the Prime Minister spoke of the issue on the “Today” programme this morning. We have been told all this and more, but we do not have an opportunity to discuss these things today in this House. Of course, we will all need time to examine and consider the report of the Joint Committee and the alternative report of the minority group of the Joint Committee. I have read both reports and think that they are excellent and extremely important contributions to the debate on the future of your Lordships’ House. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Richard, and all those involved, for their hard work and commitment.

I urge all Members of this House and people beyond to read and study both reports closely because we need to get reform right, as the noble Baroness, Lady Shephard of Northwold, said today. We on these Benches regret that there was not a more formal Statement on these issues today, but we look forward to the debate in a week’s time.

Trusts (Capital and Income) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Wednesday 28th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

That the Bill be referred to a Second Reading Committee.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I have to admit that this is a trifle contrived, because it relates to a future Bill, rather than the Bill in question. However, noble Lords will be aware that it has been announced that the Joint Committee report on Lords Reform will be published on 23 April. Will the Leader of the House join me in deploring the leaks, of which there have already been two in the past three days? I will be writing to the noble Lord the Leader of the House today to request that a Statement be made on the Joint Committee report on 23 April, and to suggest that we have a debate on the joint report, preferably before Prorogation.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, contrived or not, I know that this is an issue of great interest to the House. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, who is chairman of the Joint Committee of both Houses, is in his place today. Whether or not there have been leaks—inspired or not—I deplore all leaks, by the Government or anyone else. However, it is a matter for the chairman and the committee itself; it is not a matter for me. I do not know whether it is true—I am sure that it is—that, as the noble Baroness said, it will be published on 23 April. The original date for the committee to finish its work was yesterday and I hope it might be able to publish a little sooner than 23 April, but maybe that will be subject to confirmation. I look forward to receiving a letter from the noble Baroness. I must say—I am speaking without any particular brief on this—it is hard to see how we can have a government Statement on the same day as the publication of a great report that has been nine months in gestation and on which 26 Members of Parliament and of this House, including Cross-Benchers and a bishop, sat, but I will see what can be done over the next couple of weeks.

Procedure of the House

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 26th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Crickhowell]

I am interested in that point, because I expressly asked the Leader of the House in his room, at about 2.05 pm, whether all Members had received the same letter. He told me that actually a rather different letter had been sent to, I think, the Cross Benches. I am merely quoting my noble friend, no more.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

I offered the noble Baroness a letter. I rewrote it several times last week. Sadly, she refused to accept it.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, perhaps I may clarify the situation. Forgive me, but we had agreed that we would have an exchange of letters which we would find mutually acceptable, which could then be put in the Library of the House. That is quite a different letter from the one that other noble Lords received.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, you do not have to be a mathematician to work out that the 37 per cent of the House which makes up the coalition is not a majority.

I support the view on presumption because the experience of this Session shows that there are Bills that we could and should be sending to Grand Committee but do not, and that this detracts from the time we have available to spend on those Bills that do merit consideration on the Floor of the House and on other kinds of business. Let me give some examples. If the Academies Bill had gone to Grand Committee, perhaps we need not have sat at 11 o’clock in the morning to take the Health and Social Care Bill. If the Postal Services Bill had gone to Grand Committee, perhaps we need not have finished the proceedings on the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill at two o’clock in the morning.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord the Leader of the House, but as all noble Lords will recall, the Academies Bill was the first Bill to be introduced in this House, and there was simply no other business. The Health and Social Care Bill came forward towards the end of the parliamentary Session, and therefore it is inconceivable that had the Academies Bill been taken in Grand Committee, it would have made an iota of difference to the Health and Social Care Bill.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, if it made no difference, presumably the noble Baroness would not have refused, as she did, to put it into Grand Committee in the first place.

We could make better use of this Chamber. Let me give another example. Last December, the Grand Committee had an urgent debate on the eurozone crisis attended by some 50 Members of the House. The Chamber was not available because the Protection of Freedoms Bill was in Committee of the whole House with about a dozen participants. Many noble Lords at the time raised the question whether we were using the time in the Chamber wisely. The presumption, which the Procedure Committee recommends—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am terribly sorry, but I have to set the record straight. The Protection of Freedoms Bill was an interesting Bill because it was the very first time that the House as a whole agreed that half of the Bill would be taken in Grand Committee and the most controversial aspects would be taken on the Floor of the House. Therefore, I think a very good agreement was brought to bear in that instance.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I have no quarrel with the decision the noble Baroness made in that instance. The noble Baroness thinks I am getting at her—I will get at her in a moment, but I am not getting at her for that. I am simply pointing out that these were decisions—we took them using the usual channels and we took them together—to do things in a certain way. I am simply suggesting that in retrospect we might have done them rather differently and in a way that might have suited more Members of the House.

The presumption that the Procedure Committee recommends will also not open the floodgates to a Commons-style system, where the bulk of Committee stages are taken off the Floor of the House for two simple reasons; first, because the House will not let it. If this Report is agreed to, no Bill will go to Grand Committee without the express permission and agreement of this House. Therefore, the House will, quite rightly, retain control of which Bills go to Grand Committee, a point that my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury raised.

Liaison Committee: Third Report

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 26th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I would not care to comment on that at the moment, but I am grateful for the invitation from the noble Lord. I was going to say how much the House as a whole rightly regards the work of the Science and Technology Committee. Clearly, the breadth of knowledge inside that committee, along with the understanding and the influence of the reports, is phenomenal, and I am sure that that will continue. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, said, resources are scarce. Throughout our deliberations in the committee, I have argued for additional resources to be made available for an additional committee, and I will continue to make that argument in the coming year, so that when we have deliberations at this time next year, I may well be able to argue in favour of more work for the Science and Technology Committee. The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, made a very good speech here and in Committee, and I have supported him in his arguments throughout. However, I support the report from the committee that is before us today, and I urge the whole House to adopt it. Should there be a vote, I wish to make it clear that the people on my Benches will have a free vote.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I know that I am going to disappoint noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. It is not my purpose, but I think it is the result of the report published by the Liaison Committee that I support. As the House knows, the report proposes that more of our resources should go to one-year inquiries set up by the House for a specific purpose and with a specific membership—what we call ad hoc committees. That is a change of direction from the way in which we have dealt with things before, and I believe that it is right that these proposals for ad hoc committees should come from Back-Benchers. If this report is agreed to, I look forward to a meeting of the Liaison Committee next December when we consider a really good range of proposals for new ad hoc committees proposed by Back-Benchers around the House.

The whole point of this report is that it provides more opportunities for a broader range of Members to take part in the committee work of this House, and for those committees to be timely and to engage us in debate. The committees are meant to inform the House on subjects that we consider important. That is not to take away anything that the Science and Technology Committee does and has done. After all, this report is a package of recommendations. If it is agreed to, new resources will be made available to the Committee Office.

The report is also clear that some trimming of existing committees is required if we are to set up the new committees as proposed, and we have limited the trimming to a single sub-committee of the European Union Committee. The reason was asked by my noble friend Lord Jopling and indeed by the noble Lords, Lord Roper, Lord Grenfell, and others. They asked why we pick on the EU Committee, and the answer is, not because we do not value its work but because it absorbs by far the largest proportion of the House’s Select Committee resources—eight committees in total—and so it is the obvious place to look when trying to release resources. This is also why, to answer the noble Lord, Lord Roper, the Liaison Committee was already minded to propose the change before hearing from the noble Lord. It was in no sense any disrespect to him as chairman or indeed to the quality of the work that he has done.

The second place was the Science and Technology Committee and its sub-committees. We felt that, in the future, the resources should be that of a single Select Committee. The reason why we suggest that is that it would put it on the same resource footing as the Constitution Committee, the Communications Committee and the Economic Affairs Committee, which itself appoints a sub-committee.

Of course, this House has a notable reputation in science and technology, but there are other fields of experience and interest in this House, and I suggest we should make use for them. However, I stress that there is no reason why Back-Benchers cannot propose technical and scientific subjects to the Liaison Committee as subjects for ad hoc committees. There is also no reason why, in future Sessions, we should not re-examine this decision. I am in favour of trying out pre-legislative and post-legislative scrutiny, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, and others. It may be that in a couple of Sessions’ time we find that it is not a good use of the House’s resources and that we should look again at the situation in the Science and Technology Committee.

European Council

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 5th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

Oh dear, my Lords, I was hoping for something rather more positive from the noble Baroness. It would help if the party in Opposition were to rethink its policies on Europe and try to answer some of the questions that she herself has posed. I shall return to that in a moment.

First, I echo her words on Syria and welcome them. Of course, an enormous amount is being done on the ground in that benighted part of the world. It is clear to anyone reading the newspapers and watching television that it is a fast-moving situation which is likely to continue over the course of the next few weeks.

What are we doing about it? Our top priority is to make sure that the humanitarian situation is improved on the ground. The International Development Secretary is planning to speak to the noble Baroness, Lady Amos, today. We believe that she is flying from New York to the region today, expecting to get access to Syria, even though her efforts last week were halted. Our permanent representative to the UN is speaking to the IRCR in New York today. I am sure that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, who hopes to speak to President Putin—indeed, he may have done so—will raise the issue with him if he has the opportunity.

Obviously, this was a Council meeting that concentrated on the issue of growth and employment. I thought that the noble Baroness was unusually carping about my right honourable friend when she talked about the eurozone agreement that had been signed by the 25. The history of that is well known. She and I have debated this across the Dispatch Box but we still do not know whether, if the Leader of the Opposition had been leading for Britain in the December Council, Mr Miliband would have signed the agreement or not. Increasingly, we believe that he would not have signed it, but we do not know.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, my right honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition would have ensured that there was a better deal on the table in the first place. He would not have left an empty chair at all these important Council tables.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, we have ended up with the best deal for Britain. We have safeguarded Britain’s interests and allowed the countries of Europe to try to solve the problems of the eurozone. We very much support them, not least because we have an absolute interest in their success. We want the euro area to sort out its problems and achieve the stability and growth that all of Europe needs, and we very much welcome the progress that has been made. The European Central Bank has provided extensive additional support to banks, and many euro area countries are taking difficult decisions to address their deficits, and giving up a degree of sovereignty over the future governance of their economies. They also agreed to set up a firewall, and it is entirely right that they should do so. If the noble Baroness regards that as the Prime Minister somehow being isolated in Europe, we shall have to agree to differ, because the safeguards are clearly there.

Some doubt was expressed also on the conclusions of the European Council. The noble Baroness asked whether I could confirm that measures on the energy market, trade, growth and micro-enterprises were all announced at previous EU Councils. That was a perfectly fair and appropriate question, but the fact that they were announced in the past does not mean that it was not necessary to mention them again in this Council. These are all important issues that of course were discussed at previous Councils; but this time the content is more concrete. A year ago, the conclusions talked of the importance of the issues, but not the detail of what was to be agreed. It is now even more urgent, and we have secured more concrete language to put pressure on the Commission.

Of course, the issues of growth and innovation come up every year, and it is a tradition to discuss them at the spring Council. However, the letter that Britain organised and sent to the President of the Commission was last year signed by nine countries and this year by 12, including Italy and Spain. This year’s letter also goes further and discusses financial services and trade. Some similar issues are addressed; for example, the digital single market was included because there has not yet been enough action on that. The conclusions of the Council this time reference all eight of our action points, and there will be a more concrete follow-up.

The background to this Council is extremely well known. It is one of the most economically unstable backgrounds that the European Union has ever faced, and nobody thinks that we are yet out of the woods. However, we seem to be in a period of relative stability, and it was entirely correct that in the Council we should concentrate on improving our competitiveness, employment and growth.

Licensing Act 2003 (Diamond Jubilee Licensing Hours) Order 2012

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 27th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I speak to this Motion in relation to a matter of business that the Government would like your Lordships’ House to take on Wednesday of this week—namely, consideration of Commons amendments to the Welfare Reform Bill.

During the passage of the Welfare Reform Bill we on these Benches have risen on business Motions to speak to a number of matters, including Commons financial privilege. I apologise to the House for having to do so again today, but the lack of proper opportunities to raise points of order about the business of this House is a gap in the procedure of this House. I intend to write to the chairman of the Procedure Committee, the Chairman of Committees, proposing that the committee consider this issue. It will not be a surprise to the Leader of this House that I am raising my concerns today about the ping-pong arrangements for the Welfare Reform Bill, because we discussed the matter in a telephone call on Thursday.

The Government have decided that this business should take place on Wednesday as dinner-break business. We believe that that is completely inappropriate for this Bill, which is a major piece of government legislation that affects large numbers of people in this country, especially vulnerable ones. We on this side of the House believe that welfare in this country needs reform. However, we do not believe that some of the changes put forward in the Bill are the right ones. It is precisely because we believe in welfare reform that we believe that the Bill should at all times be handled and considered properly by this House. In line with that, we do not believe that considering what the Commons wishes to put before this House should be done as a piece of dinner-time business during another major Bill. This Bill and the House deserve better.

We also object to the way in which this business is being scheduled for your Lordships’ House. This House is not like the other place, and we rightly pride ourselves on self-regulation. This House is proud, too, that in many respects we proceed by agreement and consensus. This House wants to see these points reflected in the way that business is organised here, which in turn means the smooth running of the usual channels arrangement. We have a very good relationship between the usual channels of this House.

However, the usual channels, of course, occasionally have their ups and downs. We do not believe that announcing that a stage of a Bill of this magnitude will be taken as dinner-break business should be done without the agreement of the usual channels. To make such an announcement simply by changing the forthcoming business publication makes things that much worse, especially when it happens during a week when your Lordships' House is in recess. I believe that this could be to the inconvenience of the whole House, and we do not believe that this is what the Government should be doing. Whatever the scale of the Government’s political majority in this House, we do not believe that this is the sort of behaviour that your Lordships’ House wants to see.

We on these Benches have put all these points to the Government previously, but even at this late hour we urge them to reconsider. We urge them not to take this important parliamentary stage of this important Bill as dinner-break business on Wednesday, but to allow the matter to be considered by the House properly and in full. We urge the Government to reflect on this and to think again.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, I am astonished and a little disappointed by what the noble Baroness has just said. I would understand it if there were some sort of government ploy to catch out your Lordships by giving the House just under a week’s notice of ping-pong, but everything that we have done on this Bill has been entirely precedented. It is well precedented to take more than one Bill in a day; it is well precedented to take divisible business, including ping-pong, in the dinner break; and it is well precedented not to take ping-pong as first business. What is so appalling about what the noble Baroness has just said is that each was done under her own Administration and, indeed, under her leadership.

I should remind the House that the Standing Orders allow us to take ping-pong not only at any point in the day but as last business and without notice, both of which are also well precedented. On this occasion, we advertised a date for this second round of ping-pong last Thursday, in time for each party’s Whip and group notices. The Government can hardly be accused of squirreling away the business when we have given the House nearly a whole week’s notice.

I am at a loss to understand what is going on. However, there was brought to my attention a twitter by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, who calls himself—

House of Lords: Membership

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Thursday 9th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

No, my Lords, my noble friend would, unusually, be quite wrong in thinking that. The plain facts are, first, that the House of Lords has, in its relatively recent past, been considerably larger than it currently is and, secondly, that it is widely known and understood, which I think allows me to make this point one more time, that the House of Lords is incredibly good value. The cost per Peer is considerably smaller than that for Members of the House of Commons or indeed for Members of the European Parliament.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, since the election, the coalition Benches have swollen by 71 Peers —who are very welcome, of course—and my own Benches have been increased by 39. Does the rumoured rise in the number of coalition Peers have anything to do with the fact that the Government have lost 33 votes in this Session of Parliament?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the fact that the Government have lost 33 votes in this Session of Parliament simply indicates that the House of Lords is doing its work extremely well in suggesting changes to our well thought through legislation and asking the Government and the House of Commons to think again. The fact that the House of Commons does not always agree with the wisdom of your Lordships is its constitutional right. As for balancing out the numbers, it is again a well known fact, which I know noble Lords opposite do not like, that the Labour Party is for the first time ever the largest political group in opposition in the House of Lords. It does a very effective job. The coalition, meanwhile, still makes up only 37 per cent of the House. This is not a majoritarian House.

Housing (Scotland) Act 2010 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2012

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Thursday 2nd February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

That the draft orders be referred to a Grand Committee

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, will the Leader of the House make a Statement to the House on Monday, first, on when the Welfare Reform Bill will return to this House following Commons consideration of Lords amendments yesterday and, secondly, on the procedural impact on the Bill of the declaration of Commons financial privilege in relation to a number of the Bill’s clauses?

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, I accept the invitation that the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition has made. First, the decision on when we will take Lords consideration of Commons amendments on the Welfare Reform Bill will be made in the usual channels in due course and will then appear on the Order Paper, which I hope will be for the benefit of the House. We will have the discussions in the usual channels as soon as possible.

Secondly, the clerks of the House stand ready to give any noble Lord procedural advice, but perhaps I may repeat something that I said yesterday afternoon: namely, that privilege is nothing new, having existed for nearly 350 years, and that any amendment with implications for public expenditure might involve privilege, but that it is a matter for another place, not for me or us. As the previous Clerk of the Parliaments stated in a recently published memorandum,

“until the Commons asserts its privilege, the Lords is fully entitled to debate and agree to amendments with privilege implications”.

There is nothing new in any of this. The Commons asserts its privilege in almost every Session. It has done so already this Session and did so regularly in the previous Parliament. Indeed, the previous Department of Work and Pensions Bill that attracted financial privilege was in the Session 2006-07 when the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, himself was the Minister.

It is also worth reminding noble Lords that the Joint Committee on Conventions, which sat under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham and reported in 2006, said:

“If the Commons have disagreed to Lords Amendments on grounds of financial privilege, it is contrary to convention for the Lords to send back Amendments in lieu which clearly invite the same response”.

The House took note, with approval, of that report on 16 January 2007. If the Commons has asserted privilege, it is simply not profitable for this House to persist.

I hope that that is a helpful explanation of where we are, but I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving me the opportunity of making this short statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I note all that has been said and the wisdom that has come from many Members of this House. I have two questions for the noble Lord. First, could he confirm that if the Government so wished they could waive financial privilege? Secondly, in the light of all that has been said in this very short debate and the importance of the work being undertaken by the Joint Committee in relation to conventions, I think that the House as a whole would welcome a Statement from the noble Lord on Monday to further discuss these issues.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, that was a useful tour around the House on this matter of privilege. From time to time there are debases on privilege in this House, and it is entirely right that we should have them. But as I have explained, the matter of privilege is nothing to do with the Government, although the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, is entirely right that in certain instances the Government can waive financial privilege—if, for instance, they were to agree with an amendment made in the House of Lords or to part of an amendment. As I understand it, neither of those occurred on this occasion.

As the noble Lord, Lord Martin of Springburn, explained yesterday and again today, financial privilege is a matter for the House of Commons alone and, within the House of Commons, it is a matter for the Speaker on advice from the Clerks, not from the Government. I do not think that it would be useful for this House to debate endlessly or take a view of procedures in another place, any more than we would like another place to have a view about the procedures in this House. Both Houses have a longstanding convention that we do not debate the other’s practice, and I think that that is entirely right.

What I sense underlies much of this angst is what the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, talked about, and my noble friend Lord Forsyth—about the possibility of a reform. I am the first to defend the rights and privileges of this House, as I have done continually since I have been Leader. It is perfectly true that in the scenario of an elected House over time, the procedures and powers in this House would evolve; it could well mean that we ended up with a stronger and more powerful House, better able to challenge decisions made in the House of Commons. But that is part of the evolution between the two Houses. It would be a reversal of the evolution that has taken place over the course of the past 100 years, or so, but there is no reason why that should happen. If the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, and others were to amend or wish to amend a Bill on the reform of the House to do that, of course that is entirely possible. I am not sure what the Labour Party’s position is on the powers of the second Chamber. Perhaps this is the kind of positive thinking—or critical thinking, or continual thinking—that the Labour Party needs to do, apparently, and it will let its views be known.

My noble friend Lord Lawson was such a distinguished Chancellor of Exchequer for many years. I do not have the statistics, but I cannot believe that when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer he cheered every time the House of Lords spent more money.

[Lord Strathclyde]

I am well aware that my noble friend managed perfectly well.

My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay asked whether I was going to make a Statement on whether or why this was not a money Bill. I must say that I have not the faintest idea why this was not a money Bill. I am sure there are very good, practical and well precedented reasons why social security legislation is not deemed to be a money Bill.

A number of noble Lords have suggested that I should make a Statement at some stage next week on privilege. Let me consider that. There is no point making a Statement if we do not add very much more to the amount of knowledge that we already have. We will have an opportunity to debate the Bill when it returns from the House of Commons and when we have decided on a date, but if I can shed any extra light then I will do so. It might be better to have a Question for Short Debate, where we can discuss these matters in the round.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I have to crave the indulgence of the House once more to quote something back at the noble Lord the Leader from when I was a transgressor on financial privilege. This is a very enlightening piece from Hansard. The noble Lord the Leader said:

“The Government therefore did not seek to debate the substance of my noble friend’s amendment in another place last night; they simply declared it unconstitutional and cited privilege. I do not think that that is good enough. The Government should not hide behind the principle of privilege as a matter of course, because what is constitutional should be a matter for the whole of Parliament. Parliament should not accept the use of the privilege amendment in cases of doubt simply to stifle debate, which is the impression that the Government have given in dealing with my noble friend’s amendments. After all, if the amendments of your Lordships’ House are not to be discussed, what is the point of this House ever agreeing to any amendments? I ask the noble Baroness”—

that is, me—

“to consider this matter carefully with her colleagues in another place, with Members of this House and, perhaps, with the Clerk of the Parliaments and his opposite number in another place to see how this issue can be resolved. If the rights of your Lordships are well understood—not only in their limits but in their reality and usefulness—then none of us should see those rights lightly eroded”.—[Official Report, 25/11/08; cols. 1359-60.]

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it is always nice to have my speeches quoted and of course we could do this all day. The noble Baroness could quote my rather good speeches and I could quote her equally good ones. In fact, I will requote what I also said to the noble Baroness in that same speech: that she had,

“rightly pointed out that there is a long established position that this House does not insist on an amendment where the other place cites financial privilege, and no one, least of all me, is trying to change that”.—[Official Report, 25/11/08; col. 1359.]

I rest my case.

House of Lords: Reform

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

How to scrutinise the scrutineers, my Lords. I have not yet given great thought to how this House will do that, but there will be discussions in the usual channels. It is likely that in the new Session of Parliament we will find an opportunity at least to debate the Joint Committee’s report, and we will make an announcement in due course.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader mentioned variables in relation to cost and I quite understand the variables. As the Joint Committee itself is looking at variables, may I ask the noble Lord whether the Joint Committee is looking at the variable costs?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I am not responsible for the Joint Committee and nor are the Government. There are 26 members of the Joint Committee, including Members of the Cross Benches and a Bishop, so I am sure that if they wish to study the variables, in whichever shape or form they wish to, they will be able to do so and they will be able to attach figures to them.

European Council

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 12th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I thank the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement on the EU Council made today in another place by the Prime Minister. In this House, Leaders of the Opposition tend to open their statements on normal, regular EU Council meetings in roughly that vein. This was a normal, scheduled EU Council meeting, even if it was taking place at a particularly difficult time. But this was no normal, regular outcome to a normal EU Council meeting. What happened in Brussels in the early hours of Friday morning was momentous. The implications of the Prime Minister’s decision may well take years, decades even, to unfold fully. It is clear that Britain is now travelling in a different direction from the rest of Europe.

The reality of where we are is this: the Prime Minister has given up our seat at the table; he has exposed, not protected, British business; he has got a bad deal for Britain. The Prime Minister told us that his first priority at the summit was sorting out the eurozone but the euro crisis is not resolved. There is no promise by the European Central Bank to be the lender of last resort. There is no plan for growth. There is little progress on bank recapitalisation, so can the Leader of the House tell us why the Prime Minister’s promise of a so-called big bazooka did not materialise and what that means for Britain? At the summit that was meant to solve these problems, the Prime Minister walked away from the table.

Let me turn to where that decision leaves this country. Many people feared an outcome of 17 going it alone. Few could have dreamt of the diplomatic disaster of 26 going ahead and one country—Britain—being left behind. The Prime Minister talks of isolation in the national interest but the truth is that this is isolation against the national interest. The Prime Minister rests his whole case on the fact that 26 countries will be unable to use existing treaties or institutions. Can the Leader of the House confirm that Article 273 of the European treaty allows them to use the European Court of Justice, and no doubt they will use the Commission’s service and, yes, even the buildings? In case anyone had any doubt, it is confirmed by what the Deputy Prime Minister said yesterday that it clearly would be ludicrous for the 26, which is pretty well the whole of the European Union, to completely reinvent a whole panoply of institutions.

The Prime Minister claimed in his Statement to have done what he did because this treaty posed a grave threat to our financial services industry. Can the Leader of the House point to a single proposal in the treaty that would have entailed the alleged destruction of the City of London? What was the threat? Can the Leader of the House now tell us? In any case, there is nothing worse for protecting our interests in financial services than the outcome that the Prime Minister ended up with. Can the Leader of the House confirm that there is not one extra protection that the Prime Minister has secured for financial services?

The Prime Minister has laid great stress since Friday on his claim that British interests would be better protected as a result of his decision in Brussels. Can the Leader of the House tell your Lordships the basis for such a claim? Can he say precisely what safeguards the Prime Minister asked for? Can he say what mandate the Prime Minister had, and from whom, for making those demands? Was it the full Cabinet or the Deputy Prime Minister? The Prime Minister wanted a veto on financial services regulation but he did not get one. The Prime Minister wanted guarantees on the location of the European banking authority but he did not get them. Far from protecting our interests, the Prime Minister has left us without a voice and the sensible members of the Prime Minister’s own party, including some Members of your Lordships’ House understand this as well as anyone. We on these Benches agree with the remarks made at the weekend by the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, when he said:

“You can’t protect the interests of the City by floating off into the middle of the Atlantic”.

What about the rest of British business—the part of British business that the Prime Minister does not seem to have been thinking about? There is a danger for it, too, in that the discussions about the single market on which it relies will take place without us—a point that Sir Martin Sorrell, chief executive of WPP, the advertising company, is only the first from the business world to be making today.

The Deputy Prime Minister clearly does not agree with the Prime Minister. He says that this outcome leaves Britain “isolated and marginalised”. Does the Leader of the House agree with that assessment? Can the Leader of the House explain how the Prime Minister can expect to persuade anyone else that this is a good outcome for Britain when he cannot even persuade the Deputy Prime Minister? The Prime Minister believes that this decision was best for Britain, but the Deputy Prime Minister does not. Which is the Government’s position on this issue—the Prime Minister’s or the Deputy Prime Minister’s? With the Deputy Prime Minister saying that he is “bitterly disappointed” with the outcome obtained by the Prime Minister, can the Leader tell the House how the coalition can work properly with, at its heart, such a fundamental disagreement on such a fundamental issue?

The Prime Minister claimed to have wielded a veto, but a veto is supposed to stop something happening—it is not a veto when the thing you wanted to stop goes ahead without you. How did we end up with this outcome? Can the Leader of the House confirm that what the Prime Minister actually proposed was to unpick the existing rules of the Single European Act signed by the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher? Given that it was changing 25 years of the single market, why did the Prime Minister propose it in the final hours before the summit, and where were the Prime Minister’s allies? If the Prime Minister wanted a deal, why did he fail to build alliances with the Swedes, the Dutch, the Poles—our traditional supporters? If the Prime Minister really wanted to protect the single market and financial services, can the Leader of the House say why no guarantees were sought that these issues would only be discussed with all 27 members in the room?

Can the Leader tell us why the Prime Minister walked away from a treaty negotiation even before there was a text on the table on which we could have negotiated? The treaty will take months and months to negotiate. The Prime Minister could have reserved his position and continued to talk, as other countries have done. We believe the real answer is that the Prime Minister did not want a deal because he knew that he could not deliver it through his Back-Benchers.

I usually start my day by having a loud, one-sided argument with the “Today” programme, either with the presenters or coalition Ministers espousing policies with which I disagree because of the detrimental effect they will have on the people of our country. However, on Friday morning I was stunned into silence when I heard that the Prime Minister had wielded the veto at the European summit. This was such an extraordinary failure of diplomacy. I simply could not understand why a veto had been used over a treaty that as yet has no text and which we are not even being asked to sign yet, and how our national interests could be best served by absenting ourselves from future discussions and negotiations. The implications of our isolation are huge and we are in danger of being sidelined on a vast number of issues, including the single market.

We now have no influence at all on the final form and content of the new intergovernmental treaty. Why is this important? It is about the future stability of our continent, the future stability of the euro and therefore the future stability of the UK economy. Of course, people are right to be concerned about the European Union and the situation in the eurozone because these have great implications for our country. However, by absenting ourselves from the negotiations, by leaving an empty chair, we are abnegating our responsibilities. We should have a voice in the discussions but we are choosing not to use it. This is clearly not in our national interest.

Nothing has changed in terms of banking, financial services and hedge funds. The decisions will continue to be taken by qualified majority because financial services regulation is part of the internal market rules. However, I suggest that the 26 will be less likely to listen to our concerns in future. In addition, the 26 will naturally develop the habit of working together on a broad range of economic policy, and our voice—the voice of the most economically liberal and free market member state—will not be heard until most of the discussions have taken place.

I have always believed, and continue to believe, that as a nation we are strengthened by membership of the European Union, not just in terms of trade but of our place in the world. Suddenly, with one fell swoop of a veto that was never even used by the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, we were sidelined, and our role in the world was diminished. It could mean that in future the Americans think doing business with Europe means doing business with Berlin, Paris and Brussels rather than London. This is a bad deal, which we have ended up with for bad reasons, and it will have long-lasting consequences. It is a decision that means that we are on the sidelines, not just for one summit but for the years ahead.

The Prime Minister told the other place on 24 October:

“At the heart of our national interest … is not only access to that single market but the need to ensure that we are sitting around the table … determining the rules that our exporters have to follow. That is key to our national interest, and we must not lose that”. [Official Report, Commons, 24/10/11; col. 38.]

However, that is exactly what the Prime Minister has done. He has done what no Prime Minister has ever thought to be wise before: to leave the room to others, to abandon our seat at the table. The Prime Minister says that he had no choice, but he did. The Prime Minister could have stayed inside and fought his corner. He should have stayed inside and fought his corner.

This country will rue the day that the Prime Minister left Britain alone without allies and without influence. The outcome obtained by the Prime Minister is bad for business, bad for jobs, and bad for Britain.

[Lord Strathclyde]

It is always good to hear the noble Baroness, the Leader of the Opposition, on such fine form. I strained to hear, in all her words, whether or not the Labour Party would have signed up to the agreement on Thursday night, and I have no idea if anybody else heard the answer—I certainly did not. I invite the noble Baroness to nod, or shake her head, and she is doing absolutely neither.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, we are not the Government. The noble Lord is in the Cabinet and represents the Government.

[Lord Strathclyde]

It is very hard for the noble Baroness to criticise when she is not able to tell us what her party would have done in our position. When the Labour Party was in a position to stand up for British interests, it gave away the opt-out on the social chapter, signed up to the Lisbon treaty and refused to ask the British people for approval, and gave away something like £7 billion of the rebate and got absolutely nothing in return.

The Prime Minister was clear all along that he would protect our national interests. That is exactly what he did. It is in our national interest for the countries with the euro to fix their problems. We said that we could only agree a new treaty if certain modest, reasonable and relevant safeguards were obtained—safeguards for the EU as a whole, not just for the UK—but we could not get those safeguards. That is why the Prime Minister did not sign the treaty.

The noble Baroness asked specifically about the EU institutions. At this stage it is very difficult to know exactly what role is proposed for the EU institutions, and therefore to take a view as to what will happen in the outcome over the course of the next few weeks.

The noble Baroness asked, though she did not put it quite in these words, what we fear from the existing treaty. What concerned us was the huge damage that could potentially have occurred to the single market and financial services. We stopped Britain from signing up to something that was damaging.

The noble Baroness asked what has changed since Thursday. The answer is, very little between Wednesday and Friday. We are still firmly part of the EU, as I, or rather the Prime Minister in his Statement, explained.

The noble Baroness asked what safeguards we were asking for. We were not asking for very much. We were asking for legal clarity, that decisions on running and extending the single market would not be taken away from the EU as a whole and be made instead by the eurozone-led group. On financial services we asked for practical and focused proposals to protect the openness and competitiveness of the single market for all, especially for those outside the euro. We also asked for a proper role for our national regulators, scrutinising institutions from outside the EU which are present in Britain but nowhere else, and for freedom for our regulators to impose additional requirements on our banks, if we in this House, and in another place, so chose.

These are the most humble safeguards that we could possibly have asked for. The noble Baroness should not be asking why, in her words, we were isolated, but why the 26 countries did not agree with us, or agree to give us these safeguards. The noble Baroness says that we are isolated and marginalised. But no, we are one of the biggest economies in Europe and one of the biggest contributors to the EU. We are one of the most successful countries, and we will continue to be so. That, my Lords, is why we did not sign the treaty.

Business of the House

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Wednesday 16th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, given the pressure of business in this House and the lack of business in the other place, all noble Lords are anxious to know when this longest-ever Session of Parliament will end. I would therefore be grateful if the noble Lord the Leader of the House could confirm the information given by his right honourable friend the Leader of the House of Commons on Thursday 10 November, at col. 454 of Hansard, that the Queen’s Speech will be held in May.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition quite correctly gave notice of her question to my office just before Question Time, and I am very grateful to her.

I have not had time to consult my right honourable friend the Lord Privy Seal, Sir George Young, and neither he nor I wish to mislead either House in any way. However, I have now had his words drawn to my attention, and I have read them, so perhaps I can give some context and perspective to the words he used. He was answering a question from his opposite number about the desirability of autumn versus spring State Openings. He was referring to a Statement that he had made on 13 September, when he said that State Openings,

“will, in future, ordinarily take place in the spring, rather than in the autumn”.—[Official Report, Commons 13/9/10; col. 34WS.]

That is very much what he intended to say. The context of this is the new Fixed-term Parliaments Act under which Sessions will run after general elections in May, and from May to May. That was what he was trying to say.

My right honourable friend may also be taking a very pessimistic view of the progress of business in this House. I think that the usual channels have a plan to deliver this Session in a timely manner, and I hope that we can do better than that.

Procedure of the House (Proposal 5)

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 8th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, before the Leader sits down, perhaps I may ask him about the important point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, which is that most Statements are currently made available in our Printed Paper Office when the Minister sits down in the House of Commons. It would be extremely helpful if they were made available when the Minister stood up in the House of Commons.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, I think so, too. I shall see whether we can make this happen. There may be some extremely good, logical reason why the Statement is not made available earlier, but if it can be changed then I think that it should.

Companion to the Standing Orders

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 25th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My noble friend has very cleverly introduced yet another subject. Of course, it would be entirely up to them whether they went to the Conservative Party conference.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, the whole House will understand that some of the difficulties that have arisen in usual channels and throughout the House as a whole have emanated from the fact that we have too much legislation and too much badly drafted legislation. We all agree—I am sure that the noble Lord will agree—that what we need is more pre-legislative scrutiny. At the moment we have five Bills in pre-legislative scrutiny. Does this mean that we will only have five Bills in the next Queen’s Speech?

[Lord Strathclyde]

The noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition reiterates an old saw. I can assure her that we have not been any more ambitious in this session than her party was in the first Session of the previous Government. There are a good number of Bills in pre-legislative Committee at the moment—the noble Baroness said there were five, I thought there might have been six—I am sure that there will be more, and equally sure that there will be more than five Bills when we get to the Queen’s Speech.

European Council

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 24th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I begin by thanking the noble Baroness for the tribute she paid to the people of Libya who have fought so bravely over the course of the last seven months, and some for far longer, against the tyranny and dictatorship represented by Colonel Gaddafi. I also thank the noble Baroness for what she said about our Armed Forces and for commending the Prime Minister. I very much agree with what she said. I also agree that embedding change will take time and that the process will be long and difficult. We, the European Union and many others will be involved in that. Libya is an important country and we have been much involved with it. It is right that we should continue to help and support the National Transitional Council and the new regime, whenever that comes, for as long as they want us.

On the European Union, the noble Baroness began by saying there was no need for this House to replicate the debate happening today in the House of Commons. I agree with that, although I am sure that there will be an opportunity in the next 20 minutes or so of Back-Bench time to deal with some of these issues. The noble Baroness reminded us that the Labour Party is opposed to leaving the EU. She did not tell us about its line on joining the euro, but I am sure that that was an omission. The noble Baroness shakes her head, so I presume that means the Labour Party would not join at the moment. That is a good thing indeed.

The noble Baroness said that we needed to act together. I agree with that. It is the same reason why we are opposed to an in/out referendum. We need to act together. Major decisions are being taken about the single market—both this weekend and again on Wednesday—which is something that successive British Governments and British Prime Ministers have been championing since the days of Margaret Thatcher. The single market is an immensely important mechanism for us. The fact that the single market is not yet complete is something that should concern us; the fact that the European Commission now wishes to complete it is something that we should welcome enormously. I also agree that these decisions should be taken by the 27 member countries and not by a small group. The noble Baroness fears that we may be sidelined during the course of this process if there is a core eurozone caucus, for want of a better word. We would very much like to avoid that, and we are doing everything we can to bring that about.

The noble Baroness asked some specific questions, particularly about the amount of recapitalisation that has taken place in the banks and whether it is enough to ensure future stability. That was exactly what the ECOFIN meeting was about on Saturday. The Chancellor of the Exchequer spent 10 hours in the meeting to ensure that the system in place was proper and correct. As far as whether lessons have been learnt from previous bailouts, decisive action has been taken and it was right to do so.

Where I agree most with the noble Baroness is on growth. This has slowed in Europe and there are a number of structural reasons for that, such as bureaucratic centralisation. We will not get to grips with many of the financial problems without addressing the growth issues. That is why we support what the European Commission is doing on growth, particularly on completing the single market. What is also required is real political leadership. I am pleased that in this country at least, in the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and the Chancellor, we have a united leadership developing the way forward.

I will not join the noble Baroness in her praise of the Social Chapter. I take the view that all those things that the noble Baroness thinks are important are important, too, but they could just as well be decided in a British Parliament by British Members of Parliament and, indeed, British Peers.

The noble Baroness finished by saying that these are serious questions, which is right. The issue of Europe is always taken immensely seriously, not least in this House. I like to think that we always put the national interest first; that is one of the reasons why I am a member of this Government. These are extremely difficult and complicated times, and it is vital that we put the national interest first to get the solutions that we need.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord the Leader of the House’s question about the euro, I remind the House that it was my Government who decided not to go into the euro and that they did so in the national interest.

Legislative Timetable

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Thursday 6th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I broadly agree with the noble Baroness. She will welcome the fact that the Government are committed to promoting other forms of scrutiny and have already published a number of Bills for pre-legislative scrutiny in this Session alone. We are currently scrutinising in pre-legislative scrutiny some six Bills, including clauses relating to individual electoral registration and electoral administration.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

In relation to the PVSC Bill, I suggest that noble Lords may wish to look at comments made recently by the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, and the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, on the boundary proposals. Many noble Lords, and certainly colleagues down the Corridor, might think that we did a jolly good job in this House.

Does the Leader of the House agree that it is preferable for this House to sit in the same weeks as the House of Commons? We are two Houses but one Parliament. Can we have the noble Lord’s assurance that next year we will not sit during party conference weeks? To do otherwise is not good for the smooth running of business, not good for Parliament and not good for politics. Some of us in this House are proud to be politicians and we wish to participate in our party conferences.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I have received a number of representations from noble Lords all around the House who are very opposed to sitting in September and would infinitely prefer to sit earlier in October and sometimes even later in July. That is something that it is right for the usual channels to discuss. Of course we are one Parliament. We are also two Houses. We have different rules and regulations and are not the same in that respect. We deal with legislation very differently.

Lord Speaker: Baroness Hayman

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 5th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, when the result of the recent election for the office of Lord Speaker was announced, I indicated that there would be an opportunity to pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, our very first Lord Speaker, for the service she has given the House. That opportunity presents itself today.

The familiar sight of the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, in the unfamiliar setting of the Woolsack reminds us that this is a significant day for the House; we have witnessed the first succession in what is by the standards of this House a fledgling office. Taking up the office five years ago, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, ushered in a new era. It is a mark of the respect and confidence that the House placed in her personally that over that period the role of Lord Speaker has become an established element of the way in which the House regulates and governs itself. That alone is a remarkable legacy that will secure her place in the history of this House and of Parliament.

Some noble Lords may recall that on the occasion of her inauguration five years ago, the task facing the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, was likened to that faced by Julie Andrews, on the one hand, and the Archbishop of Canterbury on the other. We were warned that she would require the skills of a nanny and a singing nun, and forbearance on a par with that shown by the most reverend Primate, in order to preside over a self-regulating institution such as ours, vested with wide visibility but patchy authority. However, the House could hardly have known that even that rare mix of qualities would prove insufficient, for the term of office of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, was to coincide with a period of difficulty for this House, for Parliament and for British politics.

We have witnessed the removal of the appellate jurisdiction of this House, allegations of paid advocacy that prompted the House to revive its powers of suspension, and a press campaign that exposed serious abuses of the financial support available to Members of both Houses. As Lord Speaker, Chairman of the House Committee, and a member of the Procedure Committee of the House, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, was in the eye of the storm on each occasion. She displayed tremendous energy, resolve and patience in helping to steer the House through these episodes. She leaves behind a more resilient and transparent institution, equipped with a new code of conduct for Members, an independent Commissioner for Standards, and a simpler and more transparent system of financial support for Members.

Although less visible to the majority of your Lordships, we can also take pride in the way in which the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, represented the House as our Speaker. She established herself as an energetic and persuasive ambassador for this Chamber. She was the driving force behind the creation of the House’s outreach programme and she herself led by example, engaging in an extensive programme of parliamentary diplomacy in order to build relationships with other parliaments and second chambers, particularly those in the Commonwealth. Many of us particularly admire the poise and elegance with which the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, represented the House on ceremonial and state occasions, most memorably during the recent visits of Pope Benedict and President Obama.

I close by welcoming the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, as our new Lord Speaker. She has been chosen by the whole House and can count on the support and confidence of noble Lords on all sides as she resumes her service to the House in a new capacity. Her predecessor has set an exacting standard for what the House can expect from a Lord Speaker. We remain indebted to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, for that legacy and can count ourselves fortunate that she will continue to contribute to our work.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord the Leader of the House for what he has said about the outgoing Speaker and I know that the whole House will concur with all that he has said. He has rightly emphasised her work in establishing the new post, in carrying out her work both in the Chamber and on the important committees of this House, her work on governance and transparency, and on external engagement. In all those areas, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, has carried out her role and responsibilities with energy, conscientiousness and dignity in a way that commanded great respect and affection both here and in the wider world. I understand, however, that occasionally there was amusing confusion with foreign counterparts because the Lord Speaker was clearly neither a Lord nor someone able to speak in her own Chamber.

Perhaps I may touch on three points in particular. The first refers to the considerable difficulty that this House and, indeed, Parliament as a whole have faced over matters of conduct. I believe that this House took the right steps to deal with these matters but in doing so the Lord Speaker had an important but difficult role. She had at once to be apart and above these issues, and, at exactly the same time in terms of her own concerns for the reputation of this House, to be fully involved in helping to resolve them. She struck entirely the right balance in doing so, at once working closely with all parts of the House and its processes, and at the same time maintaining an important detachment from the political parties and other groupings and individuals. I pay tribute to her care and carefulness in doing so.

Secondly, she has been a vital catalyst in helping to improve the way your Lordships’ House does its work. The House now has before it an important set of proposals for reform of its working practices. The fact that it does so can be traced directly and specifically back to initiatives taken by the Lord Speaker. If this House updates, improves and reforms its working practices, as I hope it will, it will be a testament to the outgoing Lord Speaker that it has done so.

The third area which I would mention is young people. The outreach programme which the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, or Helene as she always will be and always has been for many of us on all sides of this House, has successfully established has already been mentioned. It has been of real benefit to this House and to Parliament. I also believe that it has been of genuine benefit to thousands of young people and it has been appreciated up and down this country.

This is not a party political occasion. This is an occasion which is informed by politics—it is, after all, what we do—but it is not governed by them. I hope, however, that we might on this side of the House be given a few seconds of indulgence because we are particularly proud and pleased to be able to pay tribute to the first Lord Speaker. She was a trailblazer in this post of great constitutional significance but, of course, she was also a trailblazer in the other place as the youngest MP—one of only 27 women MPs and one of very, very few women in the House who had babies. The Lord Speaker has been scrupulous in her impartiality and punctilious in her application of that and all aspects of her role.

At the same time, we know that she came from our Benches and from a long record of service to our party. We are proud and pleased that she has been such a credit to the whole House and, in doing so, a credit to our party too. We know that in returning to the House she now has to sit on the Cross Benches and we know that she will carry out her role there with the same impartiality and care that she has shown as Lord Speaker. We hope, however, that from time to time—just as with some of her Cross-Bench colleagues—we will be able to persuade her of some of the arguments which we will be making.

We welcome the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, as the new Lord Speaker, especially on this her first day on the Woolsack. She has a hard act to follow. I hope that the new Lord Speaker will see fit to follow the example of her predecessor in writing annually to all Members of your Lordships’ House. Her letters have been models of clarity and information, and I believe that they have been widely welcomed on all sides of the House. Her scrupulousness has been applied to keeping her own thoughts and views out of these letters, but in her final letter, she does say that it has been a privilege and an honour to serve this House. The real position is the reverse. It has been a privilege and an honour for this House to have the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, serve this House as its first Lord Speaker. We thank her for all that she has done.

Summer Recess: Ministerial Cover

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 5th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, my noble friend has clearly enjoyed his Recess. No doubt he will be inviting the House to read the former Chancellor of the Exchequer’s book, which has just been published.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, summer months are often torrid times. I seem to recall that, at some point during the recent Recess, we were told by senior figures in the Government not to worry because everybody had BlackBerrys or iPhones. BlackBerrys and iPhones are great pieces of kit, but does the noble Lord agree that in difficult times the physical presence of senior members of the Government is absolutely necessary to reassure not just parliamentarians but the citizens of this country that the machinery of government is working and properly able to respond?

[Lord Strathclyde]

Yes, my Lords, but I am sure that the whole country was enormously reassured when the Prime Minister returned from holiday, took full control of the unfolding situation and, indeed, recalled Parliament.

Election of Lord Speaker

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 18th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, I am sure the whole House will join me in congratulating the noble Baroness on becoming our next Speaker. I am sure that everybody will wish to join in supporting her and encouraging her not just in this transition period but throughout her term of office.

My purpose in rising now is to inform the House that there will be an opportunity to pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, the Lord Speaker, for her distinguished work as Speaker of this House and for being the first holder of the office of Lord Speaker. That occasion will take place at the start of business on Monday 5 September.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I rise briefly as I realise that now is not the time for tributes. However, as Leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition in this House, I just want to convey the very warm congratulations of our Benches to the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza. This is another step in the evolution of our House. We have had another successful election for a Lord Speaker. It is extraordinary that we have had two women. I know that the noble Baroness will have the confidence of the whole House and that she will do a splendid job for the Lords, inside and outside Parliament, and for Parliament as a whole.

Parliament Act 1911: Centenary

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 28th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I am sure that another outing by my noble friend Lord McNally would be a show-stopper.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am sure that one of the tasks of the newly appointed Joint Committee will be precisely to look at the workings and applicability of the Parliament Act. Might it not be a good idea, to mark the centenary of the Parliament Act with further tangible House of Lords reform, to ask the Joint Committee also to undertake an immediate report on the Steel Bill, which would help the House and Government decide on the best course of action when the House returns in October? I understand that the noble Lord’s Bill might be debated then.

[Lord Strathclyde]

I am all for debate on that Bill. We should let the Joint Committee do its work. It has its terms of reference. If it feels the need to look at the Parliament Act, it should do so.

House of Lords: Reform

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Thursday 9th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, this is where we get into a discussion about semantics. The Government are mad keen on reform. That is why they published their Bill. My noble friend Lord Steel’s Bill would create a wholly appointed House. I remind the House that no major political party stood at the last election in favour of those plans. All political parties stood for a wholly, or largely, elected House.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, the next part of the “mad keen” process will be consideration of the draft Bill by the Joint Committee. Can the noble Lord the Leader say whether all proceedings of that committee will be in public and whether all the papers pertaining to that committee will be made available to the public?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I understand that it is normal for these sorts of Joint Committees to hear evidence and deliberate in public. I suppose that it is up to the committee exactly what rules it decides on. No doubt those who sit on it and whoever chairs it will take into account this debate and, if representations are made, I am sure that they will wish to be as open as possible.

Leader’s Group on Working Practices

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 7th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I am aware of that and that is the point of the proposal that I laid out: namely, that the House will be able to take a view on individual recommendations, subject to the reports that emanate from the committees of this House.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I know that following the Question from the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, many Members of this House are anxious that some of the proposals at least should be implemented in the near future. May I therefore suggest to the noble Lord the Leader that perhaps the meetings of the relevant committees could be arranged for July in order that the House may take a view at the earliest opportunity? Perhaps some elements of the report could be implemented in September.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, that, of course, will be a decision for the Chairman of Committees, but no doubt he will be listening to this exchange and will wish to take that into regard while he decides on the dates of the meetings of the relevant committees.

House of Lords: Facilities

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Wednesday 25th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, there will be an opportunity for noble Lords to retire permanently from the House, but I disagree with one aspect of what my noble friend said. There should always be room to speak for Peers who may not come very often but who, when they come, are worth listening to, which is not always the case with some noble Lords who speak very regularly.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, the recommendations of the report by the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, and his group will clearly have real implications for the effectiveness and efficacy of this House. Will the noble Lord tell us when he expects the recommendations to be implemented—not just debated, but implemented?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness knows, we will have a debate very soon. When we have organised a date we shall let the House know. It is of course entirely up to the House and its committees to make recommendations on implementation, but I am hopeful that some recommendations can be put into effect very speedily.

House of Lords: Membership

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 24th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

I was unaware of any constitutional gobbledegook during the course of this Question. It is because my noble friend Lord Steel’s propositions on permanent retirement from this House are so sensible that the Procedure Committee has agreed a report which I hope will be agreed by the House.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am sure that many of my noble friends would welcome the noble Lord’s announcement that the Government have no intention to increase the number of Peers, thus breaking another promise in the coalition agreement, but one which we welcome wholeheartedly. Does the Leader of the House agree that, while neither the Conservative Party nor the Liberal Democrats have a majority in this House, as the coalition Benches they have a political majority, which has fundamentally changed the workings of this House since the advent of the coalition?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, there is no intention at present to increase the size of the House of Lords, but that—for the avoidance of doubt—is not a moratorium. As for the political majority, it is true that the coalition has more members than the Labour Party, but that is not the whole of the House of Lords. The Cross-Benchers play a substantial and serious-minded role in this House—one the Labour Party wishes to abolish from the future House. I am, on the other hand, entirely in favour of the Cross Benches remaining an important and integral part of a reformed second Chamber.

Parliament: Elected House of Lords

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 16th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I join the noble Lord and, I expect, many others in eagerly anticipating the announcement that will be made shortly by my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister. With regard to understanding the profound implications of any change that might take place, again I agree with the noble Lord: they would be profound if this House became a wholly elected body, as I think is well understood by those who propose such a change. We would decide the issue of a free vote when we came to a final conclusion about what would appear in a Bill, if any, and when it would be presented to both Houses of Parliament.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I remind the Leader of the House of the conclusion of the Cunningham committee that, should any firm proposals come forward to change the composition of the Lords, the conventions between the two Houses would have to be examined again. Can the noble Lord assure me that if, as we understand will be the case, a Joint Committee is set up, it will be charged with looking at the conventions between the two Houses?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it is proposed that there should be a Joint Committee of both Houses—an authoritative body of senior parliamentarians who would meet and examine the White Paper and the draft Bill. They could look at any aspects of them, which might include the conclusions of the Cunningham committee. My own view is that in the long term, if the composition of this House were to change, the conventions might change between this House and another place but there is no reason why they should. That will be up to decisions taken by the Members of either House.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Wednesday 11th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

Before my noble friend Lady Hamwee continues speaking to her amendment, perhaps I may explain that there has been a short Adjournment of the Committee’s proceedings so that discussion could take place as to whether we should continue. The Government’s position is utterly straightforward. Earlier today, a defeat took place. It is not the first time that a defeat has taken place on a government Bill. There is no reason why we should not continue; in fact, it is the Government’s wish that we should. I understand that some noble Lords who have put down amendments would prefer not to continue. It is entirely their right—and we would not complain—not to move their amendments this evening, but good order and precedent should continue and we should carry on with the Committee stage. I hope that my noble friend Lady Hamwee can continue with her amendment.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

I accept what the Leader has said. However, the advice given to us earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, to perhaps take time to reflect on where we are on the Bill and the implications of today’s vote for the remaining amendments, was cogent and very sensible. When the House was adjourned a brief 12 minutes ago, it was agreed that it would be adjourned in order for discussions to take place. I point out to the Chief Whip that that is what was said. No discussions have taken place with the Opposition. I do not complain; I merely point that out as a matter for the record. I am perfectly happy to continue as the noble Lord desires, but I do not think that it is a sensible way forward. It would be far more appropriate for us to take time to reflect. However, the noble Lord is the Leader of the House and it is for him to decide.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, could I seek one point of information? Given that, as was suggested by one of my noble friends earlier, we had a target of reaching the group starting with Amendment 15, if noble Lords did not wish to move their amendments in the groups preceding that group, would the Leader agree that we should finish at Amendment 15 for the sake of those people who are not present this evening and who did not expect to have their amendments debated this evening? Would the House then adjourn?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the target is a sort of rough target in order to help the House. From other discussions that have taken place, I understand that the Opposition are fully briefed up to Amendment 18, but I do not know whether that is true. I would rather dispose of Amendment 13, which is the amendment that we are on, and see where we get to. It is nearly 20 minutes to 10.

Clerk of the Parliaments

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 26th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, on 8 November last year, I informed the House that Mr Michael Pownall had announced his intention of retiring from the office of Clerk of the Parliaments with effect from 15 April this year. I indicated at the time that in due course there would be an opportunity to pay tribute to Mr Pownall.

Some Members will know that, by convention, the retiring Clerk of the Parliaments makes sure to absent himself from the Chamber for this part of our proceedings. Those who were well acquainted with Mr Pownall will not be surprised to hear that it was his ardent wish to go one step further and to ensure that he had left the estate for good by the time the House dwelt on his achievements. In that respect and in many others, he led those who serve us in this House by example. In the self-effacing manner in which he performed his duties, he helped to sustain the fiction, carefully crafted by successor generations of servants of this House, that we, the Members of this House, are solely responsible for its actions and achievements. Such a wonderful and convincing tale they have woven that I, for one, have never had occasion to doubt it.

Michael also led by example in the unfailing courtesy that he displayed towards Members of the House. Imposing as we are in our collective guise, one might concede that there are some formidable individuals among our number, yet if ever the Clerk of the Parliaments shared this perception, he did not let it show. His advice was invariably delivered patiently and with good grace. There is no Member for whom he would not make time and no predicament he would have dismissed as unworthy of his assistance.

Mr Pownall’s tenure as Clerk of the Parliaments marked the culmination of 40 years of service to this House. In that time, he held every important post, including that of private secretary to the Leader of the House and the Government Chief Whip when those positions were occupied by Lord Soames, Baroness Young and the noble Lord, Lord Denham. As well as serving the first woman Leader of this House, Mr Pownall is known to have distinguished himself during that period by bravely drawing our minimum intervals to the attention of the then Prime Minister, Mrs Thatcher.

In recent years, Michael served as Reading Clerk and Clerk Assistant before being appointed Clerk of the Parliaments in 2007. When assuming that august office, he could not have anticipated the twists and turns that events would take. His term coincided with the removal of the similarly venerable appellate jurisdiction of this House, with allegations of paid advocacy that prompted the House to revive its powers of suspension, and with a press campaign that exposed serious abuses of the financial support available to Members of both Houses, some of which have since led to prosecutions and criminal convictions. These have been testing times for the House—times which placed unprecedented demand on the Clerk of the Parliaments’ judgment, integrity and resilience. I am confident that I speak for the whole House when I say that in more dispiriting moments it was a great solace to know with absolute and distinctive certainty that Mr Pownall would not be found wanting on any of these counts.

Michael leaves behind a more resilient institution—one equipped with a new Code of Conduct for Members, an independent Commissioner for Standards and a simpler and more transparent system of financial support for Members. He leaves behind a legacy that I am sure will stand the test of time. That legacy alone would have been sufficient to earn Mr Pownall a place among the most accomplished of his predecessors. But there is no rest for the wig-wearing, and more upheaval was in store for the Clerk of the Parliaments. The general election only a year ago, in 2010, saw the first change of Government for 13 years and the first coalition Government since the Second World War. The speed and dexterity with which the needs of coalition Government were anticipated and catered for is of immense credit to Mr Pownall and his staff. Their planning, pragmatism and good grace allowed the strange and unaccustomed to be overcome and innovation of one day to become the tradition of the next.

There are, of course, more achievements that I could list and I trust that some of them will be mentioned by others, but the pinnacle of them all, perhaps, is that Mr Pownall succeeded in notching up his manifold achievements while holding together the unruly flock that is the House. He is not only respected and admired but held in sincere and lasting affection around the House and at all levels of the administration. That is why I very much hope that, although he may be intending to while away his retirement in Italy, the lure of the deep red carpet, the Pugin interiors and our collective good sense will prove too strong and we will see him in the House again from time to time.

It remains for me only to wish Michael and his wife Deborah many enjoyable years ahead. We are greatly indebted to him for the exemplary service which he has rendered to this House and to Parliament. I beg to move.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, it gives me enormous pleasure on behalf of the Opposition to second the Motion moved by the Leader of the House. I associate myself and my Benches with all that the noble Lord has said about the recently retired Clerk of the Parliaments, Michael Pownall.

Michael’s long service to your Lordships’ House, his diligence and commitment to his work and, at the same time, his reticence and modesty are all qualities from which the House has enormously benefited. It is characteristic of Michael’s modesty that he somehow managed to contrive to retire during the recess while the House was not sitting, but we will not let him get away without paying tribute in the Chamber to all that he has done for the House and for the Members of this House. It is characteristic too, though, that even after leaving the job Michael Pownall will still be doing it because he has to return to give further evidence in court proceedings being brought against Members of this House, and it is on these issues that I wish to focus. In paying an overall tribute to the former Clerk, the Leader mentioned that he could only touch on Michael’s role in dealing with the difficult issues with which this House has had to deal in the past few years. For most of that time I was in the noble Lord’s place as Leader of the House, which gave me a particular perspective on Michael, and it is from that perspective that I shall address the substance of my remarks today.

Parliament has had a bad time of it over this period: we have seen a scandal erupt; we have seen a media frenzy; we have seen the standing of Parliament lowered; we have seen trust eroded; we have seen Parliament fail the British people. In all this, your Lordships' House has not been impacted on to the same degree and extent as the House of Commons, but it has none the less been seriously affected. As the noble Lord the Leader said, we have as a result reformed our procedures radically. In all this, at every point, was Michael Pownall. I tell your Lordships this quite plainly: whatever difficulties this House has been in, they would have been worse, so very much worse, if Michael Pownall had not been in his job. At every moment, in every aspect of the issues involved, Michael was centrally involved not only in dealing with them but with stretching himself and his team to find ways of resolving them.

House of Lords: Membership

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 14th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, all things are possible but that is not part of the Government’s proposals.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, can the Leader tell the House whether the Government will continue to pursue the coalition agreement until 2015, which is the date when it is reported that he believes the changes will be in place? The agreement states:

“Lords appointments will be made with the objective of creating a second chamber that is reflective of the share of the vote secured by the political parties in the last general election”—

that is, 86 more Conservative Peers and 99 more Liberal Democrat Peers.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, over time, we shall certainly wish to produce what is in the coalition agreement.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 17th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, that is right. Like the noble and learned Lord, I have sat through many of the debates that have taken place over the past nine days and I have sympathy for the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and other Members—not just on the Cross Benches, but in all parts of the House—who wished to take part in this debate and feel that they have become excluded from it because it has taken so long. The truth is that the Labour Party has a political objective to break this key coalition Bill, stop the referendum and stop the reduction in the number of MPs.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, forgive me but, on a point of information for the House, I respectfully remind the House that the House as a whole adopted an amendment, moved by my noble friend Lord Rooker, which would enable the referendum to take place on any date before 31 October. That was the will of this House.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I entirely agree with what the noble Baroness has said.

House of Lords: Conventions

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Thursday 13th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lady. I am sure that the current Convenor is as firm with her flock as was the noble Baroness 20 or 30 years ago. I point out that in 1998 the noble Baroness, Lady Hilton of Eggardon, wrote a report that is worth rereading. I have suggested to the Clerk of the Parliaments that he should consider whether aspects of it should be republished and given to all noble Lords in an as easy-to-follow format as possible.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, like all noble Lords, I recognise the importance of behavioural and procedural conventions and, like the noble Lord, I believe that there is good will on all sides of the House. If any noble Lords sitting on my Benches have occasionally not adhered to behavioural conventions in the Chamber, the responsibility must lie with me as leader of the Labour group. Mea culpa—I will try to do better. Does the noble Lord the Leader of the House agree that one reason why we adhere to certain behavioural and procedural conventions is precisely to maintain the difference between this House and the other place? We are one Parliament with two Houses and we celebrate the distinctive characteristics of this House.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I very much welcome what the Leader of the Opposition has said. The whole House should recognise what she has said and the support that she has given to the current conventions and the rules as laid out in the Companion.

Deaths of Members: Lord Windlesham and Lord Strabolgi

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 10th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to Lord Windlesham, who died on Tuesday 21 December, aged 78. We remember him today principally in light of his role as Leader of your Lordships’ House from June 1973 until February 1974, but his was a career so much more than those turbulent and testing eight months. He was a man whose great qualities needed no titles to shine through. He achieved a great deal in public life, but he was admired more than anything else for his quiet, tactful and sympathetic understanding of the people and the issues that surrounded him. A liberal in character and a Conservative in party, he was not afraid to be independent minded, even if that at times set him against those of his party.

Lord Windlesham was educated at Ampleforth and Trinity College, Oxford, where he read law. He was commissioned in the Grenadier Guards—his father’s regiment—for national service, yet on graduation he soon found a passion for politics sitting side by side with a career in television. In the general election of 1959, he stood unsuccessfully as the Conservative candidate in the Tottenham seat. The tragic and unexpected death of his father—the second Lord Windlesham—in 1962 changed the trajectory of his political career and deprived the Commons of what clearly would have been one of its youngest and brightest stars. As has often been the case, their loss was our considerable gain.

Taking his seat as the third Baron Windlesham, and ever with an eye towards the topical and yet enduring questions of government, he made his maiden speech in this House on the subject of reform by supporting Tony Benn’s desire to renounce his peerage and remain in the Commons. It was not without irony, therefore, that after further reform in the 1990s and towards the end of his own career, Lord Windlesham was made a life Peer in order that he might continue to bring his considerable expertise to the service of the nation.

As Minister at the Home Office between 1970 and 1972, Lord Windlesham took responsibility for the penal system against the backdrop of a rising prison population. He handled both the Immigration Bill and the Industrial Relations Bill with calm efficiency and considerable charm, as it was then said. At the newly created Northern Ireland Office, from 1972 to 1973, his appointment as the first statutory Catholic to hold ministerial office for the Province at a time of rising tension was described as “inspired” and his way of business “even-handed”.

Thereafter, as Leader of this House and Lord Privy Seal, until the Conservative Government fell in February 1974, Lord Windlesham was the youngest Leader since Lord Grenville in 1790. Lord Windlesham brought a quiet, authoritative manner to the handling of important and often difficult business. A safe and steady pair of hands, courteous and precise, brave and yet never over-reaching, he stood by his Prime Minister, his party and his country during some of their toughest times.

Lord Windlesham continued to lead the Opposition in the Lords until the second election of 1974, whereafter he resigned the post and again turned his attention to television as managing director of ATV. In 1982, he was appointed chairman of the Parole Board, which meant more often than not defending a system that was under much criticism. In 1988, he found himself in a similarly criticised position, when he was caught between the political establishment and television documentary makers. His independent inquiry into the factual accuracy of Thames TV’s “This Week” investigation into the shooting of three members of the IRA in Gibraltar prompted disagreement with No. 10 but won the support of the Independent Broadcasting Authority.

David Windlesham mixed in equal measure a keen sense of public service with an independent, liberal and fair mind. He was generous in spirit and firm in purpose. His political instincts and his media skill would not have looked out of place in a modern-day Administration. His understanding of many of the challenges that Governments of all ages continue to face was acute and will be missed. Our thoughts and prayers are with his family at this sad time. They and we have lost a great man and a great friend.

My Lords, although precedent may not provide for this as such, it also seems right at this time to pay tribute to Lord Strabolgi, who died on 24 December, aged 96. He was the 11th Baron. He succeeded his father as long ago as 1953, and during Wilson’s first Government became a PPS at the Home Office and then, in 1969, PPS to Lord Shepherd as Leader of the House. After a spell as an opposition Whip in 1974 he became government Deputy Chief Whip, tasked with getting difficult and controversial business through the House. Back again in opposition, he became arts spokesman—a role that he relished—and, in 1986, Deputy Speaker and Deputy Chairman, positions that he held until 2001, having been elected a hereditary Peer in 1999.

Lord Strabolgi seemed in so many ways part of the fixtures and fittings of this House. It may have taken him a while to get from the top of the stairs to the Chamber, but it was at least in part to greet his many friends from all round the House. Lord Strabolgi was a Labour man through and through. He took his party politics seriously but that was always without rancour. He was a dedicated attender and was in the House two days before he died. We send our condolences to his family and pay tribute to the extraordinary example of service and humanity which the late Lord Strabolgi leaves us.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the House, and to the Leader of the House, for this opportunity to say a few words about Lord Windlesham and Lord Strabolgi—two very fine servants of your Lordships’ House. David Windlesham had a remarkable number of distinguished careers: in the media, in both production and management; in academia in Oxford, especially at Brasenose College; and in government, particularly at the Home Office. But of course his period in this House was equally as distinguished. I have had the honour to do just one of the jobs that he undertook, as Leader of this House, and I pay tribute to the work that he did. To be Leader of your Lordships’ House is both an enormous privilege and an exacting task, and Lord Windlesham carried out his role in this Chamber in an exemplary way.

To be a Member of your Lordships’ House is a great privilege. To be a Member for any length of time extends that privilege enormously. To be a Member for 56 years, as David Strabolgi was—as an active and assiduous Member—is quite extraordinary. David served this House well. His long service as a Deputy Speaker in your Lordships’ House reflects that and it reflects the esteem, respect and popularity in which he was held by all sides of this House. He served these Benches well too. He held firm political convictions. He served in Labour Administrations in the 1960s and 1970s, and on the opposition Front Bench in the 1980s.

Entirely coincidentally, we held a little party in my room here for David just a few weeks before his death, to mark his 96th birthday, and in the words that he spoke to us on that occasion his commitment to these Benches and to our party’s values was as clear as his commitment to the House as a whole. David also contributed much to wider society, especially in relation to the arts. He was a painter and had a studio in Paris shortly before the war. He also contributed much to Franco-British relations.

This House has lost two very fine Members who were very fine servants of their own parties. Both will be missed on their respective Benches but it is a tribute to them both that they will also be much missed on all sides of your Lordships’ House.

Parliament

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 13th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that Parliament is able effectively to hold them to account.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, it is primarily for Parliament itself to determine how it can best hold the Government to account. However, I have sought to help that process in this House by setting up a Leader’s Group to consider our working practices.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I warmly welcome the establishment of the Leader’s Group, and I am sure that it will have some fruitful deliberations. Do the Government view the Cabinet manual, which we understand that they will be publishing later this week—possibly even tomorrow—as a first step towards a written constitution for this country, as was postulated in today's Daily Telegraph? How will the Cabinet manual improve government accountability in Parliament?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the Cabinet manual has yet to be published, so I will not comment on it. As to whether or not it is a precursor to a written constitution, no, I do not think so.

Business of the House

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 29th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, that is precisely why the Government have allocated a whole day for discussion and debate on this Bill. There will be a very full Second Reading day on it, especially given this debate. It is right that this House’s voice should be heard, but it cannot be heard more than the Parliament Act 1911 allows. This is so well precedented over the past 99 years that even I, who like history and historical anecdotage in the House of Lords, find this whole debate extraordinary.

The noble Countess, Lady Mar, and the noble Lord asked about the Speaker’s role in all this. Parliament Acts are a long-standing part of the constitutional settlement of the United Kingdom. Under the Parliament Act 1911, Mr Speaker is under a statutory duty to certify a Bill a money Bill if, in his opinion, it contains provisions dealing with national taxation, public money, loans or their management. The important words there are “a statutory duty”. It is not a choice; Mr Speaker has no discretion in the matter. That goes to answer the point of the noble Lord, Lord Richard, who gave the impression that somehow there was discretion in this matter, and that I could say to the Speaker, “On balance, old boy, could you certify rather fewer money Bills?”. That is not the case. It is done on advice given by Mr Speaker’s Clerks on the basis of a statutory provision. The decision to certify this Bill a money Bill is taken entirely by Mr Speaker in another place. We accept the consequences of that because of the 1911 Act and all the precedents that have been set over the past 100 years. In my opening speech, I talked about the 60-odd money Bills that have arisen in the past 13 years. The outrage on the part of noble Lords opposite is extraordinary given that, seven months ago, they were sitting on this side of the House but never once did they scratch their heads and say, “These money Bills are a bit odd. We really should repeal the 1911 Act”.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

I do not dispute the fact that, when in government, we issued a number of Bills that were money Bills; I think the noble Lord said that there were 30. However, the difference is that we knew that a Bill had been certified a money Bill before it ended its legislative process in the House of Commons. Can the noble Lord tell me the last occasion on which a Bill was certified a money Bill at the very end of its legislative process in the House of Commons? That is a big distinction, as the House of Commons understood that this Bill would go through all its legislative process in this Chamber.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I am very happy to answer questions on this from other noble Lords as well, if they so wish. However, I find it very difficult to help the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition on this matter. It is as if noble Lords assume that I had greater knowledge than I have of what decisions were being taken in another place on the certification of money Bills, or when the decision was taken. My understanding is that it is a decision not of the Government but of Mr Speaker, taken on advice from his Clerks. I dare say that the stage at which he makes that decision is up to the internal procedures of another place. The point about this House is that we have to deal with the effects of the decision that has been taken in another place. We have no discretion in the matter. If it is certified a money Bill, a money Bill it is. If it is a money Bill, whatever we do to it matters not a jot because another place can ignore that comprehensively.

Royal Engagement

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 16th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, I am delighted to be able to report to the House the announcement made by Clarence House this morning, which I am sure many of your Lordships will have already heard, of the engagement of Prince William to Miss Catherine Middleton. I understand that the wedding is due to take place in spring or summer of next year. I am sure that the House will wish to have an opportunity in due course to convey a more formal message to Her Majesty the Queen. In the mean time, your Lordships will, I know, wish to join me in conveying our heartfelt congratulations and every good wish to Prince William and Kate Middleton.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for making that very brief Statement. I realise that there will be time in due course for official tributes but, for now, I just wish Prince William and Miss Kate Middleton the warmest and heartiest congratulations from these Benches also.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 15th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

Not at all, my Lords. I have brought two qualitative arguments—those of the Clerks of the House of Lords and those of my noble and learned friend the former Lord Chancellor, who have said that there is absolutely no question to answer.

Why has this popped up now? No one raised hybridity in the other place—the place affected by the Bill. No one challenged the legal drafting of the Bill in the other place—the place affected by the Bill. The Motion is a political tactic designed to delay a Bill concerning elections to the House of Commons, which the Commons, after long and careful examination on the Floor of their House, have agreed.

Frankly, the Labour Party in this House has to decide what sort of Opposition it wants to be. Does it want to engage with the great issues that led to its ejection from power and the loss of 100 seats in the other place, or does it want to use the kinds of procedural ploys, wheezes and games that we see today? Does it want to engage in the proper work of this House in scrutinising and revising legislation line by line, or does it want to manufacture time-wasting debates?

More than 50 speakers are waiting to speak on the Second Reading. There is an important issue here. We saw it last week in the vote on the referral of the Public Bodies Bill and we see it today. This House can debate procedure or it can debate substance. There is a great liberty in our procedures and we all want that to be preserved, but I hope that the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition and the noble and learned Lord do not intend to try to take this House the way of the other place, where hours are spent debating procedure and many clauses of Bills are never discussed.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, in respect of the Second Reading of the Public Bodies Bill, the House as a whole was debating a matter of extremely important constitutional relevance. That is why my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath put down the Motion that he did. As with today, it was nothing to do with wasting this House’s time; we were trying to ensure that we acted properly in holding the Government to account.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, years have gone by when we have not discussed these issues, either of hybridity or special Select Committees. It seems extraordinary that within six months of the Labour Party going into opposition we have had to debate them on three separate occasions. I do not think that anyone in this place outside a few zealots in Labour’s back room wants to see the kind of opposition and government politics that we have seen develop over the course of the past few months.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Strathclyde]

But on that occasion, the noble and learned Lord did not have the support of the Clerks or my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern. The point is that today he comes forward as the political mischief-maker in chief, hoping to use the strength of his party’s vote as the biggest party in this House to delay your Lordships’ consideration of this important Bill.

The Clerks of this House are clear that this Bill is not prima facie hybrid and “cannot be hybrid”. I submit that if the noble and learned Lord and his friends do not have the good sense to stop this charade, withdraw this Motion and let us all get on with the Bill, your Lordships should put a stop to this outbreak of party-political mischief-making with our procedures and do so decisively.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

Again, I point out to the House that yes, we are proud to be the biggest party at this moment in this House, but the coalition Benches have a greater majority than we have as a single party. I just wanted the House to be aware of that.

Coalition Policies

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 8th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

Of course we do that already, vis-à-vis the Queen’s Speech, but we would not have needed to publish this document if there had been a clear majority by the Conservative Party. It was needed because we got together with our Liberal Democrat allies to create the coalition.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his utterly charming responses this afternoon. Does he believe—I do not—that the Salisbury/Addison convention should apply to policies which are outlined in the coalition agreement?

[Lord Strathclyde]

Broadly speaking, yes, I do, because they have the support of the majority in the House of Commons and were overwhelmingly and clearly pointed out in the respective manifestos. There are one or two exceptions where that is not the case but, as I said before, we will recognise them when we see them.

Legislation: Pre-legislative Scrutiny

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Thursday 28th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, there is no bar to Joint Committees of both Houses being involved in pre-legislative scrutiny. We have already proposed that, this Session, there should be a Joint Committee on pre-legislative scrutiny when a draft Bill is published on the future of your Lordships’ House. Whether there should be a formalised structure of a Joint Liaison Committee is another matter altogether, and one that I am certainly prepared to consider.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, does the noble Lord the Leader of the House agree that it is especially important that constitutional Bills have pre-legislative scrutiny? I recognise the difficulties he cited about it being early in this Parliament, but might he not regret the fact that the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill came so early in this Parliament? That is a Bill that should have been subject to pre-legislative scrutiny. May I also suggest to him that the Public Bodies Bill should be subject to pre-legislative scrutiny? There has been little or no consultation on it but it will affect millions of our citizens.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I do not agree with either the general premise of the noble Baroness’s argument or the specific examples. The Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill was published on 22 July and the Committee stage in another place did not begin until October. So there was plenty of time, albeit there was a Summer Recess, for it to be examined.

Privileges and Conduct Committee: Fourth Report

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Thursday 21st October 2010 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, I support the Motion in the name of the Chairman of Committees. As the noble Lord said, we find ourselves on an extremely difficult and sad day for this House. The allegations made against the three Members of this House were serious, and the findings of the Sub-Committee on Lords’ Conduct and the Committee for Privileges and Conduct are serious. Their recommendations and the reports speak for themselves.

I join the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, in expressing gratitude to the members of the Sub-Committee on Lords’ Conduct, chaired by the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, for the thoroughness with which they conducted their investigations. I should also like to express my thanks to the Clerks of the House for the exemplary service given to the sub-committee and to the Committee for Privileges and Conduct.

As a member of the Privileges and Conduct Committee, I believe that all three Peers concerned fell short of the standard of conduct that the House and the public are entitled to expect, and we must as a House act decisively. The public expect us to react with firmness and unity to demonstrate our abhorrence at wrongdoing.

The one light in this sorry situation is that the House has already taken decisive action to reform an outdated system of expenses. As from the start of October, we introduced a new transparent system of daily allowance based on attendance. I firmly hope that, as a result, this will be the last time that we as a House find ourselves in this position.

The committee’s findings are disturbing and the conclusions reached are grave, but they are, in my judgment, fair and just. I commend the reports to the House and hope that noble Lords on all sides will join me in supporting the Motions before us.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I, too, support the Motions. These are serious matters—serious for the Members involved, serious for this House and serious for Parliament, politics and the public beyond. We should not forget either that a number of parliamentarians, including two Members of your Lordships' House, are currently facing criminal charges to be tried in court on similar serious matters. But important though the matters before us today unquestionably are, it is important to remember that these are matters that relate to a different moment. When allegations on a number of issues were first made last year against Members of your Lordships' House, we were, in retrospect, in a poor position, our machinery outdated, our procedures similarly so, and our systems not suited to modern scrutiny.

As has been said, on these issues we have come a long way. No system is ever perfect. Any system or procedure is of course capable of improvement. We must not be complacent, but at the same time we now have a new procedure for making complaints, a new system for considering complaints, a new code of conduct against which complaints can be considered, and a new system of financial support for Members of this House. All of that has been reviewed, considered, examined and adopted within a relatively short space of time. Perhaps it was not at the speed which some outside this House would have wanted, but we have done it and what we now have—what this House has itself brought into play—is a whole range of new machinery and new procedures. Getting to this point has not been easy, but whatever we have been able to do has been right.

Today is again another day which is not easy or comfortable for anyone in your Lordships’ House. I feel great sadness. But I believe that the committee has come to the right conclusions on the cases before us and on the report from the sub-committee, and the House should support the Motions before us. The sub-committee did indeed face a very difficult task in dealing with the matters before it, and I, too, thank the members of the sub-committee and their staff for their work. At the same time, however, I believe that the main committee’s judgments in relation to the sub-committee’s report, including where it has diverged from the sub-committee’s recommendations, are right. I believe that the language of the sub-committee’s reports was in part misplaced. I believe that its inclusion of untested hearsay evidence was incorrect and that the penalties proposed by the sub-committee were not appropriate.

As a member of the full committee, I believe that we are right to make the recommendations we are putting before the House today. I welcome especially the proposal for the new Commissioner for Standards to examine issues relating to process that have arisen in the course of bringing the committee’s report before your Lordships’ House and, in particular, to addressing the question of the means by which all relevant evidence can be taken into account in our procedures. That shows that we are ready to examine, and examine continually if necessary, our procedures to make sure that they work and continue to work and to ensure that they are just. This is the right way forward for this House.

On the explicit sanctions before this House today, some may suggest that we were wrong, for instance, to alter the penalties proposed by the sub-committee, but I do not believe that we were wrong to do so. I believe that the approach taken by the full committee is the right one. The committee has judged that the three Members of your Lordships’ House did wrong and we are proposing stringent penalties in response. Just as last year when we took the decision to suspend members of your Lordships’ House for the first time since the age of Cromwell, so today we are proposing that we impose penalties of a severity never seen before in either House of Parliament. That is a tough action to take and a tough action for Members of this House to bear. Although they did wrong, as the report before you correctly concludes, I do not believe that this House will not feel sympathy for the Members involved. I know that I do. However, being aware of their difficulties and indeed, sympathising with them as colleagues in your Lordships’ House, should not for a moment pull us away from our responsibilities. We have a duty to this House, the Members of this House, to Parliament and to politics as a whole to right the wrongs where we find them and to take action as necessary to put our House in order. I have no doubt that this House will do so today.

Strategic Defence and Security Review

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 19th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

It is, frankly, rich for noble Lords opposite to jeer about reading press briefings given not by members of the Government but by others. You only have to read the memoirs written by former distinguished Secretaries of State from the former Labour Government to understand just how much backbiting there was in the Government of whom the noble Baroness was a member.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

That is a very interesting point but it has no bearing on the questions that I asked the noble Lord. I would say to him that one of the most important strategies on the security of this country was published just yesterday, but the Government did not grace this Chamber with their presence so that we could hold them accountable. However, we did hear the Home Secretary on the “Today” programme, and we were fully briefed about it in the press.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I would not have mentioned leaks if the noble Baroness had not spent the first two minutes of her reply asking me questions on them.

As for the two reviews that we have published, yesterday we published the national security strategy, which I commend to your Lordships. It pointed the way for today's announcement on the strategic defence and security review, and the entire purpose was for the Prime Minister to make a comprehensive Statement today. Again I accuse noble Lords opposite. They never did a comprehensive review combining the strategic overview and the defence strategy in a single document. If they had done so in the round then we would not have been left in the mess that we now have.

The noble Baroness asks why we did it so quickly. I say to her: why did they take so long to repeat the exercise that they did in 1998? It was 12 years. Maybe they were concentrating on it but never came to a conclusion. This Government were pushed into action because of the appalling inheritance—the legacy—that we have discovered: the £38 billion overspend that will have to be paid for over the course of the next few years.

On an area which I think the noble Baroness and I will agree on—our role in Afghanistan—I can confirm that nothing in today’s announcement will have an impact on our efforts in Afghanistan. We believe that the helicopters that we have, building on the announcements that the previous Government made, are enough, and we have announced today that we will buy 12 additional heavy-lift Chinook helicopters which in the long term will make a substantial difference.

On the future of St Athan, as announced by the Secretary of State for Defence this morning, the defence training rationalisation programme has, regrettably, been terminated. However, given the significant investment in the area, St Athan remains ideally placed as a future site for defence training.

Let me turn to the capability gap, as it is called, on the carrier strike force. We may well not have been driven to the decisions that we have made about this if we had not found things as they were when we came into government in May 2010. We believe that there is a military case for a carrier strike capability, but not one that relies on the differently configured Joint Strike Fighters. That is why we have decided to invest even more money into making sure that there is a “cat and trap” capability on one of these aircraft carriers. That means that we will be able to co-operate with our allies in NATO and the EU and with the French and the Americans, who will be able to use our platform. In the short term, we believe that we have the overflying rights and the land-based runways to be able to continue to maintain air cover. In the long term, of course, none of us knows whether that will be possible: hence the reason why we have maintained the carrier programme.

House of Lords: Allowances

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 20th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the situation that the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, suggests will never arise.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I strongly support the Government’s resolutions and the House Committee’s report. The House Committee report puts forward changes to the system of financial support for Members of your Lordships’ House, based on proposals from the Leader of the House. The report rightly describes them as important changes. I agree with these proposed changes. I also agree that the changes proposed by the ad hoc group set up by your Lordships’ House and chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, form a marked move away from the current system of financial support for Members of this House.

The report of the ad hoc group sets out in some detail how we have got to this point. The background to the issues is also summarised in the report from the House Committee, so there is no need for me to repeat that history. This has been a long and complicated matter, and I add my thanks to all those involved who have worked so hard to get to the point where what is on the Order Paper today is, I believe, the right way forward.

First and foremost, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, and all the other Members of the House who served on the ad hoc group that was appointed by the House to examine these issues in the wake of the report from the Senior Salaries Review Body.

I also pay tribute to the Leader of the House for the decisive action that he has taken in bringing forward the alternative proposal, set out in the Wakeham report, that forms the resolution and the report before the House today. I know from my time as Leader of the House, and in Government, that these are very difficult issues to address, and I believe that the noble Lord has performed a considerable service for this House and its Members in bringing forward the proposals that are before us today.

In considering these proposals, we need to bear in mind two fundamental points: the nature of this House, and its cost. On the first point, I can do no better than to quote from the introduction to the report of the ad hoc group:

“Membership of this House is not an office nor is it an employment. From their appointment to the House, Members are unsalaried volunteers and they offer their experience, time and commitment freely because of a strong sense of duty and public service. The fact that the House of Lords is an unsalaried House is fundamental to its nature and character; to how and what it does as a House, and to the issue of financial support to enable Members to carry out their Parliamentary duties and to discharge their Parliamentary responsibilities”.

That is exactly right.

The second point concerns the cost of this House. The ad hoc group says that the cost of your Lordships’ House is “relatively low”. Again, that is exactly right. The report points out that not only are the total costs of this House currently less than one-third of the costs of the House of Commons but the cost of the current expenses scheme for Members of this House is, at around £19 million, just 15 per cent of the running costs of this House and a fraction of the comparable cost of £150 million in the Commons. An unsalaried House, a low-cost House—that is where we are.

We all accept that we are in a time of considerable economic difficulty. We may well—indeed, we do—have serious political disagreements with the coalition Government about how best to resolve these matters, but all sides accept that we are in straitened economic times. I welcome, therefore, the efforts made by the SSRB, the Wakeham group and the Leader of the House to reform the old system of expenses in your Lordships’ House, which, as the ad hoc group says,

“grew up in piecemeal fashion over time”,

while keeping costs under control.

Both the full debate in the Chamber on 14 December last year and the responses of Members detailed in the ad hoc group’s report made it clear that many Members of your Lordships’ House had real reservations about the SSRB’s proposals. Many believed that what the SSRB proposed was unnecessarily complicated, cumbersome and bureaucratic. The Wakeham group sought to deal with those issues, but at the same time recognised that the context for them had changed—first, because of the proposals made in March this year by the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority for changes to the system of allowances in the House of Commons, and secondly because of the changed political context following the outcome of the general election, particularly the proposals from the coalition Government for further reform of your Lordships’ House.

Accordingly, the ad hoc group recognised that the emergence of an alternative proposal would be worth consideration, reducing the level of support currently set aside for overnight accommodation and combining it with the daily allowance as a single allowance claimable by all Members. That is the essence of the proposal before us today in the report from the House Committee and in the Motion from the Leader of the House. As the ad hoc group itself says:

“If this change were to be made, it would be simple, easy to implement, easy to administer and easy to explain to the public”.

I agree.

I am of course aware that not everyone in the House agrees, including on my own Benches. I know that there are real concerns about equity, about the impact on Members travelling to attend the House from far distances and about other points. I understand those concerns; I respect those who feel them, and who either have voiced them to me privately or within our political group or may voice them in the Chamber today. But no system of financial support is perfect. All systems of financial support have to strike a balance between comprehensiveness and simplicity. I believe that the package in front of the House gets that balance right.

Business of the House

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 21st June 2010 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, in moving the Motion, it may be helpful if I say a few words about the scheduling of business in the next few weeks. The Motion on the Order Paper today seeks leave to bring forward from next week to tomorrow the debate in the name of my noble friend Lady Verma on progress towards meeting the millennium development goal on universal primary education. This proposed change has come about as a result of discussions on the Academies Bill, which the House will begin considering in Committee today.

Last Wednesday, the Chief Whip published Forthcoming Business, which set out three consecutive days for Committee stage on the Academies Bill. I must confess that there was a misunderstanding as to how this came about, which led to some feeling that this was not the optimum way to proceed. As a result, there were further and very constructive discussions between the usual channels, which led to the republication of Forthcoming Business. This revised edition sets out three days for Committee stage on the Academies Bill—today, Wednesday 23 June and Monday 28 June. I am sure that these revised dates will be welcomed by all sides of the House. Furthermore, the usual channels have agreed to take Report stage on Wednesday 7 July.

The usual channels are a vital part of self-regulation in this House and we remain committed to ensuring that they work effectively on behalf of the whole House. I beg to move.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I warmly welcome the statement and the clarification from the Leader of the House. The usual channels provide a very important function for and within this House, although sometimes some noble Lords think that perhaps the system is too opaque. However, I believe that it works very well. For the smooth running of business and the well-being of the House as a whole, it is crucial that the whole House has confidence in the system. The noble Lord’s statement demonstrates that we agree on the importance of a fair system which respects the role of the Government and the Opposition. I thank the noble Lord.

House of Lords: Post-legislative Scrutiny

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 14th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I am sure that I speak for all my colleagues in saying that we are very much in favour of stopping the ministerial merry-go-round in this House.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, pre-legislative scrutiny and post-legislative scrutiny were two of the issues that were raised in the excellent debate introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, in February of this year. At the end of that debate, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, said that early in the next Parliament a Leader’s Group should be established to look at various procedural issues. Will he tell us when such a group might be established?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it is certainly my intention to have discussions with the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition and with the Convenor of the Cross Benches as to how we should progress this and whether, before doing so, we should perhaps have a more general debate on the working practices of the House.

Special Advisers

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 7th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the depths of knowledge of my noble friend never cease to amaze me. I am amazed because I did not know it beforehand and so I am unable to give him a positive answer. However, when he sees what we publish, I think he will be very impressed.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, the noble Lord cited the names of various special advisers, but I remind the House that this Prime Minister is the first Prime Minister to have been a special adviser and I am sure that he would agree that, on the whole, they do an excellent job. Does the Leader of the House agree that most Prime Ministers are elected with a firm commitment to reduce the number of special advisers but that, over time, the rhetoric seldom matches the reality? We will be watching the numbers. I am not a betting woman in many cases, but I would bet that those numbers will go in one direction—upwards.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the Leader of the Opposition is right—the Prime Minister has made a firm commitment about the number of special advisers appointed. It will be up to us all to make sure that his resolve is maintained.