Justice: Sentencing of Young Offenders

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Monday 11th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, as so often, the noble Earl puts forward some very sensible suggestions, which I will follow up. Anyone who has been involved with our criminal justice system must be slightly shamed by the fact that a large number of young people who find their way into it as adults have been in our care as children.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, the Minister rightly spoke warmly of the work of the Youth Justice Board in answer to the question from his noble friend. Does he recognise now that it was wrong for the Government to propose the abolition of the Youth Justice Board in the Public Bodies Bill and to have fought so tenaciously for it?

[Lord McNally]

As always, the Government listen extremely carefully to this House. In this case, the House was wise, and the Government were wise to listen to it.

Freedom of Information Act 2000

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Thursday 15th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I am afraid that it would require a different kind of legislation. This is about freedom of information from public bodies.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I know that the Minister shares my frustration that the post-legislative scrutiny on this important Act is being undertaken only in the House of Commons, but I would be grateful if he could tell me two things. First, how can we ensure that the committee in the House of Commons takes into consideration the many views, expertise and great experience of this House on the subject? Can he also assure me that the committee will look at the issues relating to the risk register, because people out there simply do not understand why this House is not able to see the risk register while the health legislation is going through this House?

[Lord McNally]

I am interested in this question about the risk register. Risk registers are protected under the Freedom of Information Act, and the relevant clauses were enthusiastically used by the previous Government. Their enthusiasm for moving away from the protections of the Act seems to have occurred only after May 2010. They may like to tweet that that is true.

On the other matter, I know that there are strong opinions and great expertise in this House on freedom of information. I regret that there was no Joint Committee but, under the rules and arrangements between the two Houses, Sir Alan’s committee had first pick and chose to do it alone. However, I urge all noble Lords to write to the committee with their opinions and to offer to appear before it if Sir Alan so deems.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Wednesday 7th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

Oh look, they are all waiting. It is the responsibility of Cross-Benchers, who supposedly, I am readily assured, are deciding individually to consider, as I am sure they do, whether their experience of having to take tough decisions in tough times merits filleting this Bill, as this series of amendments would do. What I have said in this speech makes a mockery of the idea that we are decimating—

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords—

[Lord McNally]

No, I will not give way. Noble Lords have had a very good time. I have a right to point out that the attack that we have decimated social welfare law does not stand up. So much has been said in this debate, but it has been a matter of presenting doomsday scenarios and making predictions that may or may not come back. We have made many concessions, which makes this a better Bill, and I thank the House for that, but I hope that the House will not be lulled into taking a decision that will take the tougher responsibilities —the Budget responsibility and the public spending responsibility—down the Corridor. We should have the courage to make those decisions here and now.

Freedom of Information Act 2000

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Swynnerton]

My Lords, like other noble Lords I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, for introducing this debate. I am also grateful to him for his work over many years in elucidating problems of great interest in English politics, particularly his discussion of how the nuclear weapons of this country were developed. He also developed well the idea of how we would manage to survive a nuclear attack in his book The Secret State, to which he alluded.

I have on one or two occasions come up against restrictions on the freedom of information. I remember writing a book and needing the text of the Non-Intervention Committee in Spain in the 1930s. I was told it was an official secret. I argued but I did not get very far until I found out that the Dutch version of these minutes and documents could be available to me if I went to Amsterdam. I discussed this with the Public Record Office, which eventually relaxed its control.

I had another experience once when, already a Member of this House, I tried to get the late Lord Dainton, then chairman of the British Library, to tell me how many people had visited the British Library— the old, noble British Library, which I still regret—the previous year. He told me—this is difficult to believe—that it was an official secret and I could not be informed. Recently, I have come across a different problem—if it is a problem. Letters that I wrote to the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, in the 1980s are now available for scrutiny in Churchill College, Cambridge. I do not mind that: I know that on one occasion I wrote a very important paper about the Ming dynasty in China because she was just about to go to China.

In this debate, we are trying to discuss where the line lies between the need for confidentiality: the need for Ministers, for civil servants and for private persons to have private conversations which are not leaked immediately; and the need which public persons, private persons, historians, journalists and others have for information. The difficulty of deciding this line has been touched upon very well by many noble Lords. I was particularly interested by the speeches of the noble Lords, Lord Wilson and Lord Armstrong, who pointed out the difficulty of immediate indiscretion, so to speak.

I feel have to sit down in a minute—I can feel a glare upon me. In conclusion, it is essential for public servants and politicians to be able to write down statements of policy and not just commit them to the telephone or to conversation. Dr Kissinger makes that point very strongly in an introduction to one of his volumes of memoirs and I very much agree with him. It is the written document which we need.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield, both for securing this debate and for his own role, not just as an historian, but as a constitutional activist who has done a great deal more than most in pushing at the boundaries of official information.

First, I would like to endorse the proposal from the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, for a “Waldegrave 2”. Just as the initiative of the noble Lord, Lord Waldegrave, helped historians understand our recent past, so, too, would a reconsideration of the issues now. Secondly, I would also endorse his call for the Pilling and Hamilton reviews on the official history programme to be implemented.

However, my main concern is the Government’s proposal to review the operation of the FOI Act 2000. Although the FOI Act was passed by a Labour Government, this does not of course mean that everything about it is perfect. The wriggling of this Government in relation to the Department of Health’s risk register is clear evidence of that. So we on these Benches—well, my colleague and I—welcome the establishment of a review of the 2000 Act, in the form of a post-legislative scrutiny of the legislation.

There is a continuing need for consideration about whether the Act has got right the balances it seeks to strike: for instance, between disclosure and operation in government; between transparency and the need to reduce regulatory burdens; between, in effect, good government and open government. In that respect, I welcome the intervention by the noble Lord, Lord O’Donnell of Clapham—whom I am delighted to see in his place—in his final remarks as Cabinet Secretary. My own experience in government suggests that there is indeed a need for proper policy-making space in government and also suggests that FOI, as a piece of legislation, has had some negative as well as positive effects. Discussion in government can be less open as a result of FOI. Fewer things are now written down in government as a result of FOI. These are not good outcomes either for good governance or for future historians.

Set against that are the clear and real successes of FOI, as detailed in the Government’s helpful memorandum on the Act, published last month, which will form an important part of the review of that Act. At present, the review is to be carried out by the House of Commons Justice Select Committee, chaired by Sir Alan Beith, the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed. The Select Committee is a very fine body and its chairman a very fine chairman, but there is a case—a strong case—for the form of that inquiry to be expanded.

Today’s debate gives me the opportunity to propose that even at this late stage the vehicle for the review of the operation of the FOl Act 2000, first suggested by the Government in January last year, should be extended to a review carried out by a committee of both Houses. That would also be in line with the spirit of the Goodlad report, and the Leader of this House has always said that he is in favour of this House undertaking post-legislative scrutiny. The expertise of your Lordships’ House across a whole range of activities is clear.

A Joint Committee of both Houses might well be the best means of carrying out a review. Or perhaps, given that the work of the Common’s Justice Committee on the matter is already under way, there might be scope for that Committee to co-opt or include in some way as part of its process Members of your Lordships’ House, and this House should explore and pursue this matter further with the House of Commons.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, given that the Minister referred to the amendment on regional development agencies, perhaps I could raise a point in relation to them. I am very disappointed that the Government did not change their mind on their approach to regional development agencies, particularly in my home region of the north-east where there has been strong support for an agency over a long period of time. Indeed, a former member of this House, Lord Burlison, to whom I pay tribute, was very active in setting up a home-grown regional development agency there before it was sanctioned by government. That shows the longevity of this issue in our region.

One area where the regional development agency was active was in supporting applications for European funding for regional projects in regions such as mine. It is not clear who will take over that role. A great deal of money is going begging at the moment. Given that we are in a time of financial stringency, it seems quite wrong that in an area such as the north-east, which has high unemployment, regional projects are not going ahead because no advice is available to bodies applying for regional funds, and nor are there matching funds. This very important issue is gaining prominence in the region. I would be grateful if the Minister would at least address it in his reply.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, this is an extraordinarily different Bill—as the Minister said—from the one that was published. Frankly, it was then an appalling Bill, with its unprecedented number of Henry VIII powers and with profound and chilling implications for many organisations that carry out public functions. I contrast the Bill as it was—the so-called cull of the quangos—with the proliferation of quangos, including the biggest quango in the world, that we will see as a result of the Health and Social Security Bill that is before us at present. Noble Lords applied themselves to the Bill in the best way that this House does, in a very impressive example of the House enacting its role in our legislative process properly and fully. As a result of the changes that this House made, including the removal of Schedule 7 and of those clauses that would have enabled the sale of the public forestry estate, the Bill left this Chamber a much improved piece of work—not with all the changes that we on these Benches would have liked, but much improved.

In part that was because the Government, and especially the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, responded properly and appropriately to the concerns expressed by the House and by many people and organisations outside it. Further changes were made in the Commons—hence the number of amendments under consideration today—and I am pleased to say that we on these Benches warmly welcome Amendment 1, moved by the Minister. We also welcome the amendments relating to S4C, and some others. However, like my noble friend Lady Quin, I am deeply unhappy about the amendments relating to the RDAs. Their inclusion in the Bill encapsulates the topsy-turvy legislative process that the Government seemed bent on pursuing earlier in the Session. The saga of the abolition of the RDAs was a disgrace—a prime example of pre-legislative implementation that has had a profound and a negative impact on some regions, for example the north-east and the West Midlands. It is clear that not all RDAs were working as well as they should have been—but why abolish all of them just because one or two needed improvement?

Having said that, we will not vote against the amendments because we recognise that it is the end of the road, notwithstanding the paucity—or perhaps complete lack—of consultation on the issue, and the fact that there was extraordinary pre-legislative implementation of the abolition of RDAs, which we deeply regret. I hope that the Government will not pursue such policies in future but will seek to ensure that they legislate before they implement.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I also want briefly to thank the Minister for this announcement and to say how grateful I am to the Government for the careful way that they have listened to the concerns of noble Lords, for the meetings with the Secretary of State and for their attempts to adjust their plans in order to meet those concerns. I am extremely glad to hear this good news today. There is much more work to be done. As the population of children in custody reduces, as it has been, those remaining in custody are more difficult and challenging, so we need the best possible systems and approaches in place to deal with these higher levels of need. Again, I would like to express my thanks to the Minister and the Secretary of State for this decision.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I too was going to speak about heaven and sinners, as did the noble Lord, Lord Elton. But I would like to put on record that the sinner in this case is not the Minister, who I know will have done a fantastic job in persuading the department of the folly of its ways. The Minister himself is certainly not a sinner; he is more heavenly.

We on these Benches are absolutely delighted that the Government are doing the right thing. It might seem churlish, but I have to say that I wonder why it has taken a whole year for them to reach that decision. It was a whole year of insecurity, not just for the Youth Justice Board but for the youth justice system itself. As we know, the Youth Justice Board does a splendid job. By any standard of measurement it is a success story. As the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and others have said, following this summer’s disturbances —when there is, properly, great consideration being given to the need to tackle youth crime—the need for this excellent body is even greater. We should heed the wise words of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and look at the increased potential of this particular body in the difficult times in which we live.

We should pay tribute to the work of the Youth Justice Board itself, but also to the work and the voice of noble Lords all around this Chamber, led by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, my noble and learned friend Lady Scotland, my noble friend Lord Warner, the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, and others, all of whom have played a huge role in persuading the Government that it would have been wrong to abolish this excellent board. Long may it continue in its excellent work, which is to the benefit of the youth of this country, but also to the benefit of each and every citizen of this country.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I will certainly wish to see in Hansard the description of me by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, as heavenly. I will see what can be done about getting the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, expunged, because they definitely would be career threatening.

I intervene briefly to make it clear that, as I said at the beginning, we will not be asking the House to oppose the noble Lord’s amendment, and therefore ask to insist upon the amendment to remove the Youth Justice Board from Schedule 1 to the Public Bodies Bill. Noble Lords will recall that this House removed the YJB from the Bill on Report in March. Subsequently, a government amendment reintroduced it to the Bill in the other place. The Government realise that the future of the Youth Justice Board is an emotive issue. It is an issue in which this House has always taken the closest interest. It has therefore not been a surprise that noble Lords have scrutinised and challenged our plans for the future governance of youth justice.

I want to be absolutely clear that this Government remain committed to maintaining a distinct focus on the needs of children and young people in the youth justice system. We have never proposed to remove youth offending teams, nor have we ever proposed to dismantle the dedicated secure estate for young people or to effect a takeover of youth justice by the National Offender Management Service. We always intended it to be kept separate. The Government have consistently made clear that we want to build on the strengths of the Youth Justice Board. We recognise that since it was established by the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 the Youth Justice Board has helped to transform the youth justice system. It oversaw the establishment of local youth offending teams, and has fulfilled an important role in reducing offending and reoffending among young people. It has also driven up standards in the discrete secure estate for young people.

During the debate on the future of youth justice, the Government set out to persuade Parliament that now that an effective youth justice system was in place, the oversight provided by the YJB was no longer required and direct ministerial accountability for youth justice should be restored. However, we have listened to the debates in both Houses during the passage of the Bill. We have listened to the points raised by respondents to the MoJ consultation and in the responses to our Green Paper. We acknowledged that there was considerable opposition to our proposal to abolish the Youth Justice Board. I must be clear, though, that the abolition has never been about saving money—the MoJ does not have major savings contingent on its abolition. That is why we are no longer pursuing the abolition of the Youth Justice Board as part of this Bill.

The Government still believe that there should be more direct ministerial accountability and involvement in youth justice. We believe, as many in this House believe, that there is a strong case for reform of the Youth Justice Board, and we will consider our options for achieving reform outside the Public Bodies Bill. For example, we have wide-ranging powers already open to us under the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 and other powers, which the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, and I think at an earlier date my noble friend Lord Elton, referred to. We will consider whether we can use these powers in the context of more direct ministerial accountability but will do so in consultation with the Youth Justice Board and with the intention of working harmoniously with it.

I also have to put on record that the Youth Justice Board will remain within the context of the Cabinet Office’s policy on public bodies and its stipulation that all non-departmental public bodies should be reviewed at least once every three years. I will also remind the Cabinet Office that your Lordships’ House will continue to keep a close interest in the Youth Justice Board, so if it wants to back into that bacon-slicer again in three years’ time, it is up to the Cabinet Office.

I know that at these times this House can get very self-congratulatory, but tribute has been paid and the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, read out the roll of honour. I have been in this House long enough to know that when the Ramsbothams, the Eltons and the Linklaters coalesce with the Warners, you are in trouble as a Minister. That was true in the previous Administration as well. The other point that has come through in contribution after contribution is that the real influence and power in all this has been the reputation of the YJB itself. It has been able to call on friends in its time of need because of that reputation. I associate myself with the tributes that have been paid on all sides of the House to its response to the riots during the summer and the very effective way in which it dealt with the problems of young people at that time.

I assure the House that we will continue to work closely with the YJB on all our youth justice priorities. Indeed, I want to put on record, as others have done and as I did in Questions earlier in the year about this, a sincere tribute to the work of Frances Done, the chair, and John Drew, the chief executive, and all the staff of the Youth Justice Board, who have carried on meeting the needs of the most vulnerable groups of young people over the last year while under the threat of abolition. I fully appreciate that that is not a happy position to be in. However, I can also say with absolute certainty that, even through this difficult period, the working relationship between the Ministry of Justice and the Youth Justice Board has been maintained effectively and at the highest standard. That is a tribute to the leadership and the staff of the board. The Government therefore support the noble Lord in his amendment and ask that this House insists on this amendment as passed.

Elections: Registration

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Monday 31st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his Answer about voluntary registration, but I do not entirely understand it. As I understand it, it is compulsory to register at present—if only it also were to vote—and if one does not register to vote, I think that one can be prosecuted. My main question concerns local authorities: I wholeheartedly agree with the position taken by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, with which the noble Lord agreed. Can he assure me that local authorities will have the requisite amount of resources in order to ensure that they can undertake door-to-door registration?

[Lord McNally]

Yes, I think that I can give that assurance. On voter registration, the compulsion is for the householder to register the household and not for the individual voter.

Young People: Politics

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Wednesday 14th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

Indeed, and if I may say so, it is almost the mirror image of what my noble friend suggested in his opening question. The previous Speaker’s outreach programme allowed Members full in years and experience to go and speak to young audiences, not only about this House, but about participation in politics. As one who participated in that programme, I must say that they were most enjoyable meetings, and since they were usually compulsory for the school that was hosting them they were better attended than some political meetings I have addressed.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, there was an important democratic initiative earlier this week, with the publication by the Boundary Commission of its initial proposals for new parliamentary constituencies. Members of this House, all of whom are young at heart, have a close, appropriate and legitimate interest in these matters. Can the Minister inform the House why this material has not been made available for all Members of your Lordships’ House through the Printed Paper Office in the normal way, and can he give a clear assurance to the House that this disparagement of this House will be corrected immediately and certainly before the House rises tomorrow?

[Lord McNally]

I have heard this bubbling away on the other Benches. I will certainly look into it. I know of no reason why it is not available in the Printed Paper Office. I assumed that it was available immediately. Indeed, if I may say, one of the things that I would like to see is legislation in this House that would make every Member of this House interested in boundaries and elections.

Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 (Commencement No. 3) Order 2011

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Goodhart]

My Lords, I would like to step in briefly on this matter. The law dealing with the liability of corporations for offences, or matters for which the corporation has been responsible, has been inadequate in recent years. In particular, to make the corporation liable for homicide, as in this case, or for other purposes, it has been necessary for it to be shown that not only was the corporation itself negligent but that negligence could be attributed to a directive member of the corporation. Therefore, I very much welcome this particular piece of this particular order.

I should mention also that a recent and important change in this law came into effect a couple of days ago with the Bribery Act, which makes liability for bribery subject not to any particular identification of any particular individual who is responsible but simply to the incompetence of the corporation itself. Therefore, I very much welcome this particular amendment.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I, too, welcome the orders. As the Minister said, at the time of the passage of the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 there was much discussion about this issue in both Houses. It was absolutely right that the Bill should encompass this particular aspect, because it is important that an organisation can be found guilty of manslaughter if the way in which its activities were managed or organised causes a death. That is absolutely right. It is particularly important for the victims’ families because they need the certainty that such deaths can be properly investigated and authorities brought to justice.

I have only a couple of questions. My first question relates to the custody suites in the UK Border Agency and the Ministry of Defence. Is it intended that there will be a review of those specific holding and detention areas? Like the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, I would like an assurance that those in the private sector who are responsible for the custody and transporting of offenders can also be brought to justice.

In the other place, a member of the DUP asked whether or not there had been discussions with the Northern Ireland Assembly. It was not absolutely clear from the Minister’s response what discussions had taken place with the Assembly. I realise that they are a separate entity but it is important that discussions should take place between the Assembly and the Government and I would grateful for information from the Minister.

Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) (Amendment) (England and Wales) Order 2011

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I support my noble friends in their comments. On the previous occasion, as I am sure the noble Lord will recall, I used the illustration of having appeared in Hong Kong in a case where I was instructed by what turned out to be a Triad-backed solicitor’s firm. The solicitor was merely the front man. Therefore, the owners and managers of a firm must be of a proper standard.

While my noble friend was replying to the previous debate, I suddenly recalled that within the past three years I have represented someone charged with stealing a house. It was a fairly unlikely charge, which I had not come across before, but there were two solicitors in the dock with the person in question. This is the real world. This is where people who are undesirable can move in and take advantage of the legal system if it does not contain all the safeguards. The necessity for owners and managers of alternative business structure firms to be subject to the same checks as every other solicitors firm is essential, so I support my noble friend.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I also support what noble Lords opposite have said. Of course, as the Minister said, we have to be careful not to jeopardise the workings of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, but there clearly have to be exceptions. Like noble Lords opposite, frankly I do not understand why this order does not encompass ABS firms, or the head of legal practice and head of finance administration, to which the Minister referred. In view of the strong feelings that have been expressed in Committee this afternoon, I wonder whether the Minister would consider taking back this order and relaying it once proper consideration has been given to the inclusion of the owners of ABS firms. I think that all noble Lords present would like to see one single set of regulations. That would make for much better government and much better governance, and I should be grateful for the Minister’s views.

If the noble Lord is not able to take back this order—and he may not be able to do so—I should be grateful for an assurance that he will come back in the very near future with another order that encompasses the ownership of ABS firms. I quote from his honourable friend Jonathan Djanogly, who, when speaking for the Conservative opposition in the House of Commons—I am afraid that I do not have the words of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, in front of me—said:

“The effectiveness of fitness-to-own provisions is a crucial element of the public protections that need to be in place before external ownership of ABS firms can safely be permitted. It is essential to avoid the spectre of law firms being owned by criminal elements”.—[Official Report, Commons, Legal Services Bill Committee, 22/6/07; col. 300.]

I think that, unless we have an order before us in the very near future that encompasses ABS firms, we will indeed have that spectre before us.

[Lord McNally]

I knew I was right when I said that the enemies are behind me, but very constructive enemies they have been. One of the benefits of this procedure is that we can examine orders such as this in a non-partisan but expert way. As much as it is within my power to give the assurances that the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, has asked for, I give those assurances. The points that have been made by my noble friends during this debate should be treated with proper urgency. I am not in a position to withdraw the order, which covers matters that it is important to take forward. However, the noble Baroness is quite right: in opposition both Jonathan Djanogly in the other place and my noble friend Lord Hunt made it very clear that the effectiveness of fitness-to-own provisions was a crucial element of the consumer protection measures that needed to be in place for all ABSs. That position has not changed.

I can assure the Committee that the gist of this debate—or at least Hansard—will be made known to my colleagues in the Ministry of Justice, along with the strong message that a sense of urgency is needed in taking this matter forward. The argument that a compelling case and a clear understanding of the potential risks are needed to justify inclusion in exception orders is valid. Licensing authorities have a range of regulatory powers and will be required to put in place strict licensing rules to ensure that licensing bodies are properly regulated and consumers adequately protected.

Nevertheless, I accept the point made by my noble friend Lord Dholakia. I hope we can carry forward his initiative in producing a new Private Member’s Bill that updates the Act. If we are to get general public support for a rehabilitation of offenders Act, and carry public confidence in it, we must have exception orders to give the protections that the public require. Certainly, the case made today for owners being part of the Act is, to my mind as a lay man, almost unanswerable. I hear what has been said. It would seem only natural to a simple lay man that owners and managers of ABSs should be included in the order. I will take the very strong recommendations of this Committee back to colleagues. In the mean time, I ask the Committee to accept this order.

Land Registration (Network Access) (Amendment) Rules 2011

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I shall make a brief intervention on this, with a couple of quick questions. In the Explanatory Notes somewhere it says that the first alternative business structures will be established in October this year. Is it anticipated that that is the case? Furthermore, there is mention of an informal consolidated text in the document. What is the state of an informal consolidated text, as opposed to a proper consolidated body of law?

I very much welcome the update of the Land Registry portal guidance notes, which will be important. However, following on from what the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, has said, and the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, there are clearly potential problems with this order. There is to be a post-implementation review in 2015. I have two things to say about that. In view of the concerns expressed by noble Lords, are the five years before there is any sort of review not a little too long? If consumers have been found to be suffering as a result of this order, perhaps the Government might seek to act before then. If the review finds that the policy objectives of the order have not been met and that consumers have been harmed as a result, will the Government seek to act and revise the order in some way to ensure that consumers do not continue to suffer as a result?

[Lord McNally]

I am grateful to noble Lords who have participated. On the important question of when alternative business structures will be introduced, the Legal Services Board and the Ministry of Justice are working towards October 2011 for implementation. The noble Baroness was in government long enough to know that saying that we are working towards that is as firm a commitment as I can make at this precise moment—but that is the objective.

On the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, about the importance of the integrity of the Land Registry process, I need no urging on that. I am the Minister responsible for the Land Registry. One thing that I continually impress on colleagues from other departments is that we have a very important public asset in the trust that people put in the Land Registry process, and rightly so. For the great majority of us, the title and ownership of our property—those of us who are house owners—represents the biggest investment that we ever make in our lives. So the integrity of that process is extremely important. Although I have heard before the doubts expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, about alternative business structures, I would not go so far as to describe him as a Conservative on matters of legal structures.

Our aim is to bring what we hope will be some exciting competitive pressures into the delivery of legal services, and those responsible for delivery will keep a close eye on things. In a recent meeting on related matters, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, attending in her capacity as chair of the Legal Services Consumer Panel, expressed confidence in the overall checks and balances being put in place. Alternative business structures will provide opportunities for practitioners from different professions, legal and non-legal, to join up to ensure that it is economically viable for them to continue to provide legal and associated services and gain efficiency savings.

Although we promised a review after five years, Land Registry constantly reviews its practices and will review the network access rules if alternative business structures result, paying particular regard to consumers.

The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, spoke about the use of databases—I think that he referred to the suspicious activity database. Thorough checks are made before entering into network access agreements and continuing checks are made to make sure that there is no abuse. However, the noble Lord raised an interesting broader point. The advance of technology has meant that the ability of the state and private industry to amass vast amounts of information about the individual could pose a threat to their civil liberties. I shall quote, as I do frequently in other places, something that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, once said to me. He said that in a free society there must be a limit to what the state knows about the individual. In our modern world, vast amounts of information are amassed. What is more, there is almost limitless technological ability to exchange that information unless checks and balances are put in place. That is partly the responsibility of government and Parliament.

I hope that I have covered the points that colleagues have raised. As I have said, the measures bring the various Acts into kilter and anticipate new structures. On that basis, I hope that the Committee will agree the Motion.