Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Debate between Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick and Baroness Hoey

Committee stage
Tuesday 31st January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Browne of Ladyton. Over the last number of days, increasingly people have said to us, right across the community in Northern Ireland, that they are opposed to this Bill on the basis that it does not have victims and survivors at its heart and centre. Last night, I was very pleased to sponsor a meeting for SEFF in your Lordships’ House, where that was the message, yet again, that was given to us. Right across the community, irrespective of political or religious persuasion or, shall we say, whatever job the person may have had, as a victim or survivor, people do not support the Bill because their needs and requirements are not placed at its centre.

The need for the independence of the commission goes to the very heart of the Bill. We have seen quite clearly that the Secretary of State will have undue and unfettered powers. My noble friend Lord Browne is absolutely correct: the membership and work of the commission need to be independently determined and it must not be shackled by the unfettered powers of the Secretary of State.

In fact, many human rights organisations have concerns about the influence of the Secretary of State over the processes of the ICRIR as proposed by the Bill. For example, the Secretary of State will have the power to appoint its chief commissioner, who must be a UK judge, moving significantly away from the process envisaged in the Stormont House agreement of appointing an international figure to be jointly agreed by both the UK and Irish Governments. Where is this process of engagement and consultation with the Irish Government and, of course, the agreement that is urgently required? Things in Northern Ireland do not go ahead successfully unless there is reconciliation, consensus, agreement and consent. There is definitely not consent for this Bill. There will be no legislative consent Motion because there is not an Assembly at the moment, but the five main parties are opposed to the Bill, so it would not happen anyway.

While the proposed government amendments to Schedule 1 seek to provide that the Secretary of State consults relevant figures, they are unspecified. In advance of appointments, the wide discretion given to the Secretary of State in Northern Ireland over appointments to the ICRIR remains. Furthermore, requiring the Secretary of State to ensure, as far as practicable, that there is a commissioner with international experience is a weak substitute for an independent, international individual or group of individuals. I sincerely endorse the views of my noble friend Lord Browne and ask the Minister to go back and look at this issue.

The submissions given to us are quite clear. Liberty says that

“While this may be a ‘Northern Ireland Bill’ in title and in focus, it is explicitly one that is directed by Westminster. This is not just true in the exclusion of stakeholders in Northern Ireland and Ireland alike in the introduction of the Bill, but in the deep vein of political interference that runs through the legislation”,


and that the ICRIR

“stands a chance of working only if it is seen to be independent in its operation.”

Yet the hand of the Secretary of State looms large throughout all aspects of its function.

A similar view is expressed by Amnesty, which quite clearly states that the ICRIR does not meet ECHR procedural requirements, and that the Secretary of State retains control over the appointments, the resources and caseload of the ICRIR as well as the powers to terminate its work at any point. In view of that, it is quite clear that the ICRIR will not be independent and I would like the Minister to outline to the House how he and the Government will address that issue, and how he will toughen up the legislation by amendments on Report to ensure independence. If the needs and requirements of victims and survivors are to be placed at the centre of the Bill, this is an urgent priority and I urge the Minister to do that and to use the Judicial Appointments Commission to fulfil the requirements of the ICRIR in achieving independence.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, before I speak to my Amendment 14A, I just want to say that we may be wearing the same colours but I disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, on her support for the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Browne. I really do not see the need for that and, in my view, “independent” can mean so much to so many different people. As far as I am concerned, the Secretary of State is the Secretary of State for the United Kingdom Government of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and I see absolutely no reason why appointing commissioners would not be done by the Secretary of State. There have been some brilliant Secretaries of State and there have been some terrible ones, but the reality is that they are the representative of our Government of the United Kingdom and that should happen. Perhaps not being a lawyer, I do not share the confidence that so many people seem to have in the Judicial Appointments Commission.

In talking to my Amendment 14A, I had not realised that the Minister would not have spoken to his Amendment 14. Mine is really a probing amendment and in a spirit of genuinely asking a few questions. I would like to see all five of the commissioners not only have relevant experience before appointment. Also, very clearly, that experience must be gained in the United Kingdom and not exclusively in other places. My amendment would ensure that this would happen.

I am not convinced as to why the Minister has conceded the point about a commissioner needing relevant international experience if practical, and of having that prescribed on the face of the Bill. I have to say again that maybe there is a romanticised idea about international involvement in Northern Ireland. But, from experience of internationalising the Troubles—that horrible word that people use—reinvestigation has not always been good and has not always been considered successful. What type and level of experience is anticipated for these commissioners? Will they have to be former police officers or lawyers? As I said in the previous debate, I think it is sad that the Minister is unwilling to put into the Bill that ex-RUC and PSNI officers can definitely be considered. We saw what Jon Boutcher did by ruling out instantly ex-PSNI and ex-RUC. That is wrong and implies, as I said before, that there is somehow something wrong with them and that they are not to be trusted.

We need to know some of these things so that the appointment does not get decided with us and the victims not knowing exactly how that person will be put there. Without the benefit of my amendment, the Minister’s Amendment 14 leaves open the possibility of appointing an individual who not only has no experience of UK policing but has never even set foot in Northern Ireland or gained any relevant experience there. Of course we must remember that, once they are appointed, they take on the considerable powers of a constable. That is exceptionally important. Noble Lords should require assurance on this; their acceptance of my amendment would provide that.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Debate between Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick and Baroness Hoey

Committee stage
Monday 13th December 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 6, to which I have added my name. I also see merit in the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, although I see that as an area where a manner of negotiations would be required, which I suggest might happen in the post-election scenario. I recall my colleague, Mark Durkan, at a meeting of the British-Irish Association in 2008 talking about the removal of the “ugly scaffolding”—I think that the noble Lord, Lord Caine, was there that evening. In the fullness of time, the Good Friday agreement was meant to evolve and our society was meant to evolve, through working together, through partnership, through the consent principle and through agreement. We have not necessarily achieved that position, but it is an area where further negotiations might be required.

I support the idea that Ministers should have to take account of the need for and the views of a civic forum. I recall the original Civic Forum that was established as a result of the agreement and the Northern Ireland Act back in 1998. I know many people who were involved in that and made a contribution, from the trade union movement and from civic society, from farming and fishing, because they were policy focused. That can only be good, because they bring their knowledge and their experience, which no doubt can inform Assembly Members and Ministers of the issues that are pertinent at a particular time. In my old constituency of South Down, such issues might be agriculture and fisheries. Nothing lasts for ever; things change, and Brexit was obviously a major change in terms of fishing. People involved directly in those industries can add much, and there is a role for the civic forum, but, more importantly, for Ministers to have due regard to what is said in that. There have been very powerful tools in the form of citizens’ assemblies in the Republic of Ireland, which have helped to change and mould society as it has developed.

I have received a copy of a letter that was sent to the then chair, or former chair, of the Executive Office, who was making inquiries about the outstanding issues of New Decade, New Approach. Reference was made in that agreement to a civic advisory panel, which would be not unlike a civic forum. New Decade, New Approach states:

“The parties recognise the value of structured and flexible engagement with civic society to assist the Government to solve complex policy issues. The Parties have agreed that the existing Compact Civic Advisory Panel should be reformed to include a renewed membership appointed within 6 months”—


that should have been by June 2020—

“by way of a Public Appointments process.”

It is to be noted that this remains an outstanding commitment which was interrupted by the impact of Covid on public engagement generally. The letter to which I referred, from October 2021, stated that work would be initiated to enable the panel, subject to the availability of supporting resources, to come into operation as soon as circumstances permitted to fulfil its intended remit as effectively as possible. I see that as a staging post on the way to the establishment of a civic forum by way of this legislation.

It is interesting that the civic advisory panel has not yet been established. Surely the impetus should have been Covid and the need for an organisation such as that, consisting of people from the trade union movement, civic society, health and social services, the economy, business and manufacturing, and from the retail organisations, to discuss the ingredients of what was required in a Covid recovery plan and help inform Ministers and Members of the Assembly of the most up-to-date thinking in this regard.

While I speak in support of both amendments, recognising that a new set of negotiations would be required in terms of Amendment 7, I ask the Minister: where is the civic advisory panel? Will the Minister and the Government talk urgently to the Northern Ireland Executive about the establishment of this panel? It would only be of benefit, and not a hindrance or impediment, as sometimes Members in the Assembly and even Ministers could think, but they should always see things in terms of compromises and solutions. I support both amendments.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I will just say something briefly on Clause 4 and the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, and supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick. A civic forum sounds brilliant, does it not? But I am really not sure what we mean by a civic forum. I presume that this is a probing amendment, because clearly we could not support something where we have no real idea of how anyone would get on to it; who would be representing who; what the rules would be; whether they would get paid to come—would someone coming up from Londonderry/Derry get their fair pay?—or whether it would move around and people would be moving around with it.

I think this is one of those ideas that sound great but in practice would become just another group of people—mainly the same people, probably, who are already involved in politics in the wider sense in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is quite a small place, as those of us who come from there know, and everybody knows everybody, really. Wherever you go, people know somebody who knows somebody—probably sometimes they are even a relative. I am therefore not quite sure how this would work. We have, for example, a very strong Women’s Institute in Northern Ireland, where WI groups meet in the country areas regularly and do great work; we have the Young Farmers’ Clubs; we have all sorts of other organisations already, such as residents, tenants and community associations; and a huge amount of work is being done by churches and community groups. I am just not sure about introducing another layer of supposed democracy and accountability—I am not sure who it would be accountable to, anyway.

I hope that the Minister will treat this with great care, because it is one of those things that sounds good and could be set up, but then we discover that it is in fact pretty meaningless and does not do anything to move things forward in Northern Ireland.