Covid-19: Public Transport

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd June 2020 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Randerson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on the provision of public transport.

The Question was considered in a Virtual Proceeding via video call.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, public transport faces significant challenges: lower passenger demand, reduced capacity as a result of social distancing and higher than usual staff absence levels. We are working very closely with transport operators as they increase their services and are providing financial support where necessary.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

I welcome the Government’s intervention but, to be commercially successful, buses and trains have to be very full, yet the social distancing measures require them to be only 15% full. Working and travel patterns have changed as a result of the virus, so do the Government accept that in future they need to work more closely with local authorities and to reform core funding for buses to encourage the use of zero-emissions vehicles and ensure that fares are affordable?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Baroness is quite right. We are working very closely with local authorities to meet the needs of local communities, particularly in relation to buses, on which, as she recognises, capacity has been significantly reduced. We have an opportunity in that there will be a national bus strategy, in which we will look at how to put low- emissions vehicles on our streets.

Covid-19: Transport

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Thursday 14th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

I begin by expressing our thanks to all involved in the transport industry, and in particular all those key workers on the front line who have kept this vital sector up and running during the pandemic for the use of other key workers and for the movement of essential supplies. I do not know the exact number, but certainly over 50 transport staff have died with Covid-19, the majority in London. We express our sincere condolences to their families and friends.

The devastating consequences of Covid-19 make this Statement on government guidance all the more important, as people are now being actively encouraged to go back to work if they cannot work at home. Indeed, some people who have been able to work from home are now being told by their employer to return to the workplace. Those going back to work are being told to avoid using public transport where possible and, instead, to travel by car, by bike or on foot.

However, this guidance is not a directive and contains a lot of “shoulds” and “coulds”. I am concerned about how practical implementing the guidance will be, in particular in respect of social distancing and maintaining a two-metre distance on public transport. Transport for London has said that, given the national requirement to maintain social distancing wherever possible, capacity on the Tube and buses will be reduced to around 13% to 15%, even once services are back to full strength.

Some 80% of those coming into central London to work come in by public transport. Even if that figure is halved by people still working from home and by more people coming in by car, there will not be the required capacity on public transport if social distancing is to be maintained, as indeed we have already seen. At times, the position will be the same in our other major cities, even though the percentage travelling to work by public transport is nowhere near the level in London.

How will social distancing be maintained? For example, a suburban train, bus or tram coming into the centre of London or another major city will start its journey from the outer terminus with a limited number of passengers. As more passengers join at each station or stop on the inward journey, the train, bus or tram will become more crowded. Under these guidelines, will the operator be expected to have staff at each station or bus stop deciding how many passengers can still be allowed to get on each arriving train, bus or tram, consistent with maintaining social distancing, and preventing passengers joining if maximum capacity still enabling social distancing to be maintained has already been reached? Will the operator, under these guidelines, be expected to stop passengers entering at each station if the platforms already have the maximum number of people on them waiting for a train, consistent with maintaining social distancing?

Are these examples of what is meant by maintaining social distancing wherever possible under these guidelines? If not, how will social distancing be maintained in reality if it is entirely a matter for each passenger whether or not they choose to get on a train, bus or tram that already has more people on board than is consistent with maintaining social distancing? What can the Government tell us today about the extent to which it has been possible to maintain social distancing this week on our trains, buses and trams as they have got nearer on their inward journeys to the centre of London and our other major cities?

For public transport staff, the train or station, bus, coach, ship, plane or taxi is their place of work rather than a means of getting to work. I am not clear how much guaranteed protection these guidelines provide them with. There is no provision for PPE to be provided for front-line staff. The Statement also says that wearing face coverings when using public transport could help protect other travellers, and presumably also staff, from coronavirus—but having said that, the guidance then only advises people to wear face coverings.

If a bus driver, for example, feels that more people have been regularly getting on their vehicle than is consistent with maintaining social distancing, and that their employer has not done as much as could have been done to prevent that situation arising, which they feel puts their health at risk, is it clear in the Government’s view whether the driver has the right to decline to continue working, without penalty, until the situation is resolved, whether by the employer or the intervention of an outside body?

I turn to the Government’s 14-day quarantine proposals, which cover apparently everyone coming from anywhere in the world unless via France or from Ireland. Will the Government publish the advice that says we need 14-day quarantine now but there has been no case for it previously? Why is France excluded and why, just as one example, does Gibraltar find itself included when it has had no deaths from coronavirus? How will the 14-day quarantine period be enforced? More than 18 million passengers have entered the UK since January. Will it be against the law for an individual not to be present at the address they have given? Who will ensure that they are, and which organisation or body has the resources to do this in the current situation?

I have real doubts about the practicality of applying some of these guidelines, in particular in relation to social distancing on public transport, and I suspect that many in the Government do too, unless the vast majority of people returning to work simply choose not to travel to work in this way, and particularly in London. Time will tell, but we can only hope that the guidelines do their job and we do not end up with a second spike in coronavirus cases which could affect anyone, including those of us taking part in this debate today.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

I echo the thanks to all those key workers in transport industries who have kept vital supplies and vital workers moving during the last two months. As always, our economy sits on the shoulders of the transport sector. Like the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, I want especially to mention bus drivers and others who died, who were particularly exposed to the virus in their work.

I start by reminding everyone that last Sunday’s broadcast by the Prime Minister was essentially for England only. New rules and advice were announced, but they were for England. The situation is different in Wales and Scotland, so it is now a complex picture. That matters, of course, because transport crosses borders.

I very much welcome the investment announced in cycling and walking, specifically the emergency and temporary measures. While I am delighted to see the speed of response, I seek assurances from the Minister that this first tranche of money will be followed by long-term investment in improving the infrastructure for active travel. Indeed, the Department for Transport itself has estimated that it needs £5 billion to nearly double the number of trips using cycling from 2% to 4%. This announcement was of course for £2 billion. Can the Minister give us some detail on how the Government will work with local authorities to ensure that the money is indeed spent well and quickly?

I was also pleased to see the announcement about trials of electric scooters on public roads. Can the Minister tell me a little more about this? Will it involve only scooters for hire or include privately owned scooters?

For me, the peace and quiet in recent weeks, due to the lack of transport noise, has been wonderful. So too has been the improvement in air quality. The reduction in harmful emissions has allowed us to glimpse a view of how to tackle climate change. However, on Sunday, the Prime Minister fired the starting gun on the return to old habits when he advised people to get back in their cars and avoid public transport. I accept that there is an impossible conundrum with public transport. It is not possible to socially distance on most buses and trains; it is therefore essential that every other possible safety measure is taken seriously.

I was disappointed that the guidance issued by the Department for Transport to public transport operators was essentially a series of suggestions. There are many bus operators across the country, many of them small operators with limited capacity. Early in this crisis, the Government recognised the need to take centralised control of train services. I am not suggesting for a moment that they should nationalise bus services, but I am surprised that they have apparently not established a national forum for sharing good practice and providing guidance to bus operators. Will the Minister consider that?

On issues such as screens, frequent cleaning, going cash free and the availability of hand sanitiser, the guidance was very laissez-faire. It was merely a series of suggestions, which I fear can—and in some cases, will—be ignored. As the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, pointed out, the advice to passengers on face masks states:

“There are some circumstances when wearing a face covering may be marginally beneficial”.


It goes on to emphasise that it is “optional” and “not required by law”. The lesson of the past few weeks is that although we, the public, like to know why we are being told to do something, we also like clear instructions. That instruction on face covering would have been much clearer if it had simply said, “You are advised to cover your face in crowded places.”

I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I join the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, in paying tribute to everybody in the transport sector who has worked so tirelessly over the recent weeks and months to make sure that those who must travel are able to do so. They have done a superb job in keeping things going. It is a great tribute to their hard work that we are in the position we are in today. I also offer my sincere condolences to the families and friends of all those, particularly in the transport sector, who have lost their lives.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, made a number of points. He started by not being wholly supportive of the transport operator guidance, in that it was not directive and is not practical. This is not the feedback that I have had from the transport operators—and I speak to them a lot. They are perfectly capable of taking this guidance and translating and transposing it into the appropriate measures that they need to take according to the needs of their workers and passengers. It is not the case that a bus operator is the same as a tram operator or a PHV operator. There is a huge variety of transport operators, which is why the guidance is set out as it is. I have not had feedback that transport operators feel that they are missing direction. Certainly, I have had feedback that they are working incredibly well together in developing guidance, then adjusting it for their own needs and for their own staff.

I will accept that, in certain circumstances, social distancing on public transport will be a challenge, and that is recognised in the guidance. For example, the passenger guidance refers to 2-metre social distancing “where possible”, and states that this is probably sometimes not possible—at busier times, on busier routes and at certain points in the journey. That guidance goes on to talk about other mitigations that can be put in place to help the passenger—for example, avoiding physical contact with other passengers and not standing or sitting face to face. Spending minimal time with other passengers, such as passing in the corridor, is not thought to be too much of a risk. The guidance says that face coverings are advised in enclosed spaces, which is what the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, wanted it to say. We have set out exactly what should happen and what passengers’ expectations of social distancing should be.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, talked about operationalising social distancing and explained many of the things that operators are considering. Each operator is preparing its own plan for its particular transport type and circumstances, operationalising social distancing, and other elements within the guidance, and putting it in the plan. The Department for Transport is reviewing many of those plans, to make sure that we too are content that the right measures are put in place.

Crowd management will be one of the important things. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked what would happen if a certain number of people got on a platform. This has, of course, been thought through. Every Transport for London station has an operational plan to make sure that certain things will happen and that passengers are managed and advised in the right way so that we do not get too much bunching. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked whether we had been able to maintain social distance this week. I am delighted to report that there have been very few problems, and I think that all those that did occur were reported on the news. When I spoke to Transport for London last night, the picture it was able to give me of its operations was pretty positive. It had not seen persistent levels of lack of social distancing. For the time being—fingers crossed —everything is going to plan.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned the devolved nature of the country. The consequence of devolution is that it is up to other countries to have their own guidance, should they wish to do so. However, the transport operators are doing a very good job at communicating that to passengers. Our guidance for people travelling between the devolved nations is: just check with the transport operator. There will be posters everywhere; it will be impossible to miss them.

Cycling and walking also featured in the noble Baroness’s remarks. I am delighted about the £250 million that is coming out of the traps in order that we can get local authorities to make changes quickly. She asked whether we were involved with the local authorities in that. Yes, we are. We have published road space allocation guidance which helps them to understand the sort of things they need to consider when introducing, for example, wider pavements for pedestrians or temporary cycle lanes to encourage more people to get on their bikes.

I cannot offer further details on e-scooters at the moment, as I believe they are still being finalised. If the noble Baroness could be a tiny bit patient, I think an announcement will come very shortly. This is a good opportunity for us to trial this new form of transport, to see if it works for cities and other places in our country.

Finally, the noble Baroness mentioned the bus operators and whether there should be a national forum. I speak to the bus operators very regularly. They fall into two associations: the CPT and ALBUM, which covers the smaller players. Those two associations are doing great work in encouraging the bus operators to share best practice and to help them develop risk assessments for their particular circumstances. I do not think there is a need for a national forum because that is all happening.

Motor Vehicles (Tests) (Amendment) (Coronavirus) Regulations 2020

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Wednesday 13th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for seeking this opportunity to debate this SI. Along with many noble Lords who have spoken today, I acknowledge the emergency situation in which the Government introduced this legislation, when the House was not sitting and with no opportunity for parliamentary scrutiny. However, we are now a couple of months on and have experienced, we hope, the peak of the virus. Indeed, the Government are urging England to go back to work. Therefore, we are looking at this SI with a degree of hindsight. I hope that the Minister will agree that the timescale envisaged by it goes beyond what was needed to solve a short-term problem.

In my experience, MoT garages are not the most crowded of workplaces; indeed, some are effectively one-man businesses. Appointments are made by customers, so social distancing is not a great problem. Therefore, garage staff are presumably now back at work. The need for this SI stems from the instruction to the public—that is, vehicle owners—to stay at home. However, on Sunday night, the Prime Minister changed that instruction for England, as several noble Lords have noted. So is this SI still needed at all?

I want to ask the Minister about the dates to which this SI applies. The Explanatory Memorandum makes it clear that the scheme for exemptions applies only to vehicles for which an MoT test was due on or after 30 March. If your MoT was due on 29 March, for instance, and you did not get it, then you are not entitled to the waiver. Yet the lockdown was announced on 23 March. Why this hiatus of a week? I know of a driver whose MoT was due on 26 March, but her garage shut immediately on 23 March when the lockdown was announced. She was unable to get her MoT. When she needs to drive again, this gap will cause her problems. What should she do? Can the Minister explain why the SI does not date from the start of the lockdown?

I hope that the Government will move to revoke this SI as soon as possible, as paragraph 7.6 of the Explanatory Memorandum sets out, because the sudden withdrawal of MoT business has had a big financial impact, particularly on small garages which rely on MoTs and subsequent repairs. It has had a knock-on effect on welding businesses, for instance. Many noble Lords have raised this point.

Almost one in three vehicles taken for testing fails to such an extent that it is classed as dangerous or as having major faults. I accept that there has been a low risk of breakdowns et cetera during the lockdown, but we are already past that period in England. The statistics I cited indicate that the MoT exists for good safety reasons. As the Explanatory Memorandum points out, some 16.5 million MoTs will expire in the next six months.

I want to ask about the exemption granted to goods vehicles and public service vehicles under the Secretary of State’s powers. What are the terms of this and how long will it last? Buses often carry children, for instance, and we owe a special responsibility to them, and to their parents, that they travel in safety. The commercial reality is that both bus companies and haulage companies have suffered badly in the last eight weeks. It is an obvious financial saving for them if they do not have to pay for an MoT, but it is important that that financial saving does not stretch to failing to keep vehicles up to high safety standards.

The Explanatory Memorandum says that there will still be a legal obligation on motorists, hauliers and bus operators to ensure that their vehicle is safe, but there is no mechanism for enforcement built into this SI. I fear that the only enforcement will come after the accident, when the police inspect the wreckage and charge the driver with having an unsafe vehicle.

Throughout my comments, I have referred to England specifically, but the territorial extent of this SI includes Scotland and Wales, as the noble Lord, Lord German, has already pointed out. It has been well rehearsed over the last few days that the three Governments have now diverged in their advice on working and travelling. How will this divergence be reflected in the Government’s approach to this issue? Above all, I seek an assurance that the devolved Governments will be fully consulted as and when changes are made.

This has been a remarkably unanimous debate, in that most noble Lords have made it absolutely clear that they support the purpose of the SI but believe that its extent, in terms of time, is probably now too lengthy and too specific.

The noble Lord, Lord Rennard, made very important points about insurance and warranties. I ask the Minister to respond specifically to those legal questions and to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, about blame after an accident.

I look forward to the Minister’s reply. I accept, as do other noble Lords, that the SI was a sensible solution to a short-term problem for worried motorists, but I believe the Government should ensure that it remains short term.

Covid-19: Public Transport Safety

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 12th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend for his observations. The Government recognise that there is much to be done from a transport perspective to help the nation’s health. That is why we have come up with a £2 billion boost for cycling and walking, which we believe are critical elements in helping people reduce their reliance on public transport. That is why we are encouraging people, if they are making journeys of three miles to five miles, or fewer, that they should consider walking or cycling. That is good for public transport and good for their health.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

On Sunday, the Prime Minister said, “Go back to work”, yet the Department for Transport did not publish its guidance to travel operators until this morning. I have read that guidance, and it is still very vague on key issues such as face coverings, screens and the handling of money. It is not prescriptive, but simply suggestions. That is not good. Why have the Government failed to provide the co-ordinated leadership needed by the bus industry throughout the UK?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I would challenge the noble Baroness in her assertion that the operator guidance is vague. It sets out the key elements that the operators must consider, but the important element is that each operator will be coming up with their own specific risk assessment which is suitable for their environment and their workforce, and, equally importantly, they will be consulting their workforce to ensure that the risk assessment is appropriate and that workers feel safe.

Aviation and Tourism: Cancellations

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 5th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My noble friend raises an important series of questions. On voucher support, the Chancellor has already announced wide-ranging support for all sizes of businesses. I encourage all those in trouble in the travel sector to avail themselves of the opportunities that there are. On restart and recovery, which is very much on our minds as well, an aviation restart and recovery team has been set up specifically at the DfT to work with the aviation industry to understand all the challenges it will have to get our planes back in the skies and to make sure that people can once again travel.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the problem is not just with airlines, but with cruise operators and other providers. There appears to be a particular problem with those operators that are foreign owned. Many European countries have already changed their regulations to tighten this up. Are the Government planning to do likewise? Are they aware of the crucial issue that there is no point in having refund vouchers if a company no longer exists? Many of these companies are in danger of ceasing to exist in the near future.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, is absolutely right that many of the cruise companies are indeed foreign owned. Provided that a cruise has been sold, or indeed offered for sale, in the UK, it will be covered by the package travel regulations. Therefore, the consumer will be entitled to a refund within 14 days. If a cruise holiday has been sold outside the UK or the EU, different terms and conditions may well apply. I will take back to the department her suggestion that other EU countries have changed their regulations. We will look into it.

Passenger Train Services

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Wednesday 29th April 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I join the noble Lord in paying tribute to all transport workers; they have done an astounding job during this crisis. At the moment, we do not know what the long-term implications for rail and indeed other public transport modes will be. However, we believe that there remains an urgent case for modernisation and reform, so we will be looking at the recommendations in the White Paper that will come out of the Williams Rail Review. They will be at the heart of any changes that we make to put the passenger at the heart of our rail system.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

Since the Government now have much more control over the rail system, will they take the opportunity to simplify the rail ticketing system and to streamline and improve the procedure for claiming refunds? It is ironic that there are different processes for claiming refunds, given that the Government control the whole thing. In particular, will they ensure that refunds are given to people who hold railcards but are unable to travel at this time?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

If the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, is referring to refunds to season tickets at the moment, we have spoken to all train operators and made sure that the process is as simple as possible. We have made sure that claims can be made remotely; we have extended the refund period—the time during which refunds can be made—from 28 days to 56 days; and we have backdated refunds for season tickets to 17 March. To date, £120 million has been paid out on season ticket refunds.

Smart Motorways

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Tuesday 17th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend for her warm words about the report and put on record my thanks to everybody in the department who worked on it. It was an enormous undertaking, involving a huge amount of data that had to be analysed. I am perhaps not entirely sure to what the noble Baroness is referring as all sorts of technology already exists on these motorways, be that the red “X” signs to prevent people travelling in certain lanes, the enforcement of those signs, or the MIDAS speed monitoring systems. All sorts of things are in place. She may have been referring to stopped vehicle detection, which we are rolling out more quickly than we originally anticipated; that will be in place within three years.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the smart technology not in place in most cases is that needed to detect vehicles stopped in the inside lane. The outcome of the review gives Highways England up to 36 months to roll this technology out. Does the Minister agree that 36 months is a long time for vital technology that is core in relation to the safety of these motorways? Does she agree that they should be converted back to their original layout, with hard shoulders, until technology has been fully installed in each individual case?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I am afraid I cannot agree with the noble Baroness. She is referring to stopped vehicle detection, which is just one type of technology and the safety case is not dependent on it. There are two other technologies that can also make sure that stopped vehicles are seen. They are MIDAS, as she well knows, and the CCTV that covers all elements of the smart motorway system. I would like the noble Baroness to consider one thing: does she accept that, if we were suddenly to turn around and put back the hard shoulder on all these motorways, by putting roadworks on those roads, we would immediately make those roads less safe?

HS2

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Wednesday 11th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, of course HS2 should be built, but it must be HS2 as a whole—the full route—and it must continue through to Scotland, which we hope will still be part of the United Kingdom by the time that gets done.

There is a three-pronged argument for HS2. The first argument is that of levelling up the prosperity of the north. Secondly, there is the environmental argument. In 2018, the transport sector accounted for 33% of all CO₂ emissions in our country, and most of that came from road transport. Electrified rail is significantly cleaner than road, air or sea traffic. Research by Greenguage 21 on behalf of the Campaign to Protect Rural England, the Campaign for Better Transport and the RSPB showed that HS2 emissions per journey will be 73% lower than for those by road or air.

Thirdly, of course, there is the capacity argument: existing routes are full and getting fuller. As far back as 2014, 26% of morning peak trains on this route arriving in London were over capacity. We need a new long-distance, high-speed line to free up existing lines for commuters on shorter routes.

HS2 has been under sustained attack, and despite the positive response of the Oakervee review, the project is still subject to scrutiny, as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, set out. The aim is largely to reduce costs—that is scrutiny—but there is environmental criticism as well. However, any attempt to reduce costs is likely to involve changes to the features specified in this debate: the route, the speed or the station locations. Critics of HS2 have often concentrated on the apparently poor cost-benefit ratio showing a poor business case for HS2. My noble friend Lady Kramer, in the debate we had following the publication of the Oakervee review, exposed how narrow that cost-benefit analysis actually is. There have been criticisms for years of the way in which we do our transport cost-benefit analysis. The analyses of rail schemes do not take into account the regeneration potential of such schemes. It is time for the Government to move on and adopt a new means of analysis so that we take account of potential regeneration. Other countries do so when planning their infrastructure, and we should be doing this on a firmer basis.

The danger is that any attempt to reduce the costs of HS2 will take the easy solution and simply curtail the route, but Northern Powerhouse Rail’s plans are designed to integrate with HS2. One is dependent on the other, so that is not an option. Only by building the full route will we maximise the potential of HS2 to, for example, replace internal flights. Not only will emissions be 76% lower than those of an internal flight but it will also be able to compete on journey time and cost. There are examples on the continent of rail replacing flights very effectively where high-speed lines have been built.

We can find plenty of European examples of high-speed rail regenerating cities and creating jobs, such as Lille, Lyon and Zaragoza. In the UK, our one high-speed line—the short stretch of HS1—has had a catalytic role in enabling regeneration around its stations. It has been an all-round success, with reduced journey times, increased capacity, reduced overcrowding, improved punctuality and reliability and the encouragement of a modal shift from car to rail.

I want to address the specific issues set out in the title of this debate: the speed, the stations and the route. First, speed costs money. HS2 is designed to travel at 400 kilometres per hour, but this costs a lot of money. Compare that with, for example, the speed of 325 kilometres per hour achieved on the TGV. Evidence to the Economic Affairs Committee suggested that reducing the speed would reduce the costs by £1.25 billion and the benefits by £6 billion. I do not know whether that is 100% accurate, but even if it is generally in the right ballpark, it is difficult to justify much reduction in speed unless you can be absolutely sure that there will be a significant reduction in cost.

There are some really controversial issues to do with the stations. It is worth pointing out that most high-speed lines in other countries do not link into the centre of the capital city. I have always believed that using Old Oak Common as a terminus is a reasonable approach, certainly in the early years. It would reduce the amount of disruption in the Euston area and the cost of regenerating that station. Some £2 billion of the increased cost of HS2 is due to the increased cost allocated for Euston station alone. Of course, the capacity of Old Oak Common would have to be increased beyond what is planned at the moment. The original reason for the Euston link was to link with HS1, but that direct link has already been abandoned, so that is one argument down for continuing the concept of building the Euston station interchange immediately.

I would like to put in a quick word for the Crewe link. On behalf of the people of north and mid Wales, I am very keen indeed that that link is maintained. It is important that every nation of Great Britain benefits from HS2. That link to Crewe is essential for railway efficiency in north and mid Wales.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

Hear, hear.

[Baroness Randerson]

I am very pleased to hear that support from the Chamber. Can the Minister tell us whether final decisions have been made about the Sheffield station? I remember there was a huge debate about its location, and I have not heard the resolution on that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, referred to the importance of being prepared to change the route. It is important to bear in mind that significant changes have already been made, with many miles of tunnelling having been introduced as a result of the work of environmental campaigners. That is an extremely good success story. However, the costs of tunnelling are much greater than those of building on the surface.

In conclusion, I believe we need to get on with this. We lag badly behind other countries on high-speed rail. I suggest that the Government take the advice of the Institution of Civil Engineers to work closely with rail industries in France, Spain and Germany, where there have been hugely successful high-speed lines. I fundamentally disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. We has to take the umbrella approach to the environment and take the view that we have to preserve the integrity of the environment as a whole. Only by building an environmentally efficient, modern railway line will we get people out of their cars, off planes and on to the trains.

Flybe

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Thursday 5th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. This collapse could have very serious consequences, not just for those currently stranded here or abroad; not just for employees—the ground staff at airports as well as direct employees—and not even just for the insurance industry. This collapse has longer-term consequences, particularly for our regions, heavily reliant on connectivity for employment, tourism and travel. I need hardly say that with the almost certain economic impact of coronavirus and travel changes after 31 December, the loss of a major transport link could have particularly serious consequences.

Any attempt to blame this collapse on the coronavirus will not wash. Transport experts had been warning about the state of this company well before the first cough, and the Government must explain why a proper plan was not in place before recent events. We have been here before with passengers affected by the collapse of Monarch and Thomas Cook. This case is worse for some, with fewer passengers travelling on packages and therefore not necessarily ATOL-protected. We welcome what is being done in the short term to get passengers home, but there is also the loss of holidays and other associated costs. Can the Minister spell out the plans to assist those passengers beyond mere transport? Also, how does the Government plan to re-establish trust in the industry, which is taking a serious hit? Given that the CAA has sustained funding cuts under this Government, can the Minister confirm whether any additional financial support will be provided to enable it to support passengers following Flybe’s collapse?

The impact of this on the regions and nations of the UK cannot be overestimated: 80% of flights at Belfast City Airport are operated by Flybe, 95% at Southampton, 50% at Humberside and at Wick, and 100% at Anglesey, with 30 other airports affected. Many of these provide critical connectivity, often where there is no realistic alternative to flying. Indeed, some of these smaller airports might now themselves be at risk. The impact on small businesses could be devastating. Can the Minister outline the support that will be made available to communities, and could she confirm that the Government will meet urgently with local authority representatives and airport operators to agree a package of central government help?

Passengers, local economies, and of course 2,000 employees face a difficult time ahead. Can the Minister confirm what engagement the Government have had with Unite and BALPA today and give an undertaking that the Government will play a full role, alongside Unite and BALPA, to help Flybe workers find new jobs?

The talk of HS2, bus and cycle lanes in the Statement sounds woefully misplaced in this context. That will not help Cardiff and the south-west, and they certainly will not help Belfast. The words

“The Government are well prepared”


for the impact sound hollow today, as an airline folds due to a slight downturn in bookings. The impact on consumer confidence, on the likelihood of passengers and businesses continuing to book flights, and on their concerns about cancellations and loss of money must not be underestimated. Will the Government agree to engage with the relevant user and consumer groups, so they can also play their part in in rebuilding consumer trust and ensuring that passengers are treated fairly?

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the Statement, which comes at a time of huge concern in the aviation industry. When Flybe first publicly hit problems a couple of months ago, the Government wildly overpromised the help that was on offer, or potentially on offer. It turns out that virtually none of that help was possible, partly because of the concern in the rest of the aviation industry about fair competition but also because the Government, for one reason or another, have not been able to offer money on reasonable terms to the company.

All the grand schemes in the world will not help the people who are losing their jobs today or who are being cut off from the regular routes that they use which are important either to their families or to their businesses. In this Statement the Government repeat some of these grand, long-term promises—but, to be fair, that is actually irrelevant at this time.

On competitive market companies that fail, the Statement is really surprising, given the Government’s response couple of months ago. It says:

“It is not the role of government to prop them up.”


But two months ago, the Government were offering assistance that effectively was promising to do that. Shape shifting will not help the market. What help, if any, did the Government, in the end, provide to Flybe? Was Flybe able to defer the payment of any taxes, or was that not possible?

Beyond the concerns for Flybe employees and the passengers who have paid money for flights, amply outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, there will be a very serious knock-on effect at smaller regional airports in the UK. Some of those airports could also find they cannot continue operating. The Statement says:

“Government stands ready to support this sector.”


Exactly how will the Government offer help to this sector? There is a danger that the Government are offering more help that actually cannot be implemented in the end.

The importance of Flybe has been overwhelmingly in its routes to isolated parts of the UK. Some such routes in the UK have PSO status, but only one is a Flybe route: the Newquay to Gatwick route. France has 22 PSO routes, so, even if we are still working to EU rules on this, I ask the Government to reconsider the number of internal routes that are given PSO status, because that is what will provide long-term certainty and a long-term levelling up for parts of the country that are very isolated.

Coronavirus is undoubtedly a factor in tipping this company over the edge probably slightly earlier than would otherwise have happened, and there will be other cases.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Look at the time. This is a Statement, not a debate.

[Baroness Randerson]

The two Opposition Front Benches are allowed 10 minutes, and I would like to finish what I am saying. Coronavirus will tip other transport operators into difficulties as well. Especially at this time, when we are expecting a large number of people to need healthcare, I ask the Government what measures they are putting in place to help the transportation of NHS patients from the Isle of Man to hospitals in Liverpool, which is a role that Flybe has undertaken up to now. This is a very specific concern.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank both Front-Benchers for their contributions; a number of very important issues were raised, some of which I can agree with and some of which I probably cannot. I think that all noble Lords will agree that the loss of Flybe is a significant hit to regional connectivity, and we must work with the regions to make sure that people are able to get to where they need to go. I am a little concerned that there seems to be much focus on regional connectivity and just air travel, but there are several ways of travelling from the regions. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, mentioned the south-west. The south-west does have trains and does have coaches; there are other ways to travel. The Government are undertaking a review of regional connectivity which will focus on aviation but will cover all modes of transport to understand exactly how the regions can interconnect.

There are two things—this was raised also by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson—about connectivity. It is not enough to get connectivity between airports; we must also make sure that there is good access to the airports and the train stations. Of course, this is all top of mind within my department.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, mentioned the passengers who have booked flights, and whether they will be able to get their money back. This is a private sector company, and it concerns all of us that some people may not have adequate protection. This will once again highlight, as other failures have in the past, the importance of having insurance. Some passengers will have ATOL cover. Others who have paid by credit card may be able to get their money back under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act. Some passengers may be able to claim a refund by applying for chargeback, if they paid by debit card. Passengers can seek additional information and advice from Citizens Advice or Advice Direct Scotland.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, mentioned CAA resources; the CAA outlines the adequacy of its resources every year in its annual report. It is working within its current resource envelope in order to staff the failure of Flybe, and we are not aware that it has any concerns.

The Government are, of course, working very closely with all of the airports. A number of airports were heavily reliant on Flybe flights. We are working very closely; my colleague the Aviation Minister has already called the airlines and the airports this morning, and that engagement will continue. Later today, she will be calling key figures, either metro mayors or local authorities, where appropriate.

In terms of protections for employees, both of Flybe and of the different airports, the DWP does stand ready to offer support. It has been in touch with both BALPA and Unite already today and is working with them.

One of the points from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, made me feel that she is very much in favour of aviation. However, Labour wants to include a frequent flyer levy, which would have a significant damaging impact on aviation. Should Labour wish to retain its goal of net zero by 2030, I think it was the GMB that said that that would mean one flight every five years for people. So I am not entirely sure that Labour can be the great champion of aviation; should it ever come to power it would indeed decimate it.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned PSOs. Those will be really important going forward and will be one of the key levers in the way we will be able to improve connectivity. We are looking at all options for expanding the scope of PSO policy. As we leave the European Union, the different rules we will be able to put in place will certainly be hugely beneficial to various places. On her specific question on transport from the Isle of Man to Liverpool, I will need to write forthwith.

Holyhead

Baroness Randerson Excerpts

Monday 2nd March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I agree with the noble Lord that that has to be a concern. As I mentioned in my opening Answer, the Government and the Welsh Government have committed £240 million to the north Wales growth deal. One of the projects within that deal will involve enormous changes for the better at Holyhead. I will endeavour to find out whether facilities to plug into shore supplies will be available.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister suggested that it is up to ports to be prepared but, while it is of course for the Government to give a signal on borders and potential borders in the Irish Sea, the uncertainty of the situation in respect of Holyhead is having very serious implications. At what point in the negotiations with the EU over the coming months do the Government expect to discuss and finalise the border arrangements between Northern Ireland and Great Britain?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

As the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, will know, I cannot possibly answer that question at this time because those sorts of things are still being finalised. However, we have been talking about this for a very long time now. An enormous amount of planning has already gone on, particularly around the previous exit date of 31 October. The Border Delivery Group has been up and running for a long time and we are working with local partners to understand what needs to be done. We have already looked at any potential disruption and what could be done to mitigate it—work is well under way.