Police: Working Conditions

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Thursday 19th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Quin]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have received about the case for flexibility in police working conditions and practices.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, police working conditions and practices are discussed regularly by the police negotiating machinery, where the Home Office is represented, as well as in ministerial meetings with representatives of police staff and associations.

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[Baroness Quin]

Has the Minister seen the recent findings released by the independent commission headed by the noble Lord, Lord Stevens? The findings show an alarming level of morale among police officers, with four out of 10 women police officers who responded saying that they had thought of quitting the force. Indeed, over three-quarters of the respondents said that they were pessimistic about the future of the service. Although the report focused specifically on women police officers, there is evidence to show that male officers are similarly affected by these issues, as indeed are police couples trying to combine their police duties with family responsibilities. Does the serious nature of these findings not demand an urgent and early response from the Government, so that these issues can be addressed and the situation can begin to improve, rather than deteriorate, as many police officers fear it will?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I have seen the report, which was commissioned by the Labour party and conducted by the noble Lord, Lord Stevens. I have to say that the statistics come from an online survey and so were somewhat self-selecting: we believe that those responding were more likely to be those who were disgruntled with their job. As regards the position of women in the police service, the noble Baroness ought to recognise that the retention rate for female police officers is something of the order of 95%, which is considerably higher than the retention rate for men in the police force. I would have thought that that indicates that women police officers are satisfied with their terms and conditions and that there are suitable policies for flexibility in all of the police forces in the country.

Oak Processionary Moth

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Wednesday 27th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, that is another question, but I agree that trees are good for us. That is why we want, if possible, to eradicate or contain the oak processionary moth so that our oaks can flourish.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, at the moment the problem has largely been limited to London, although I echo the concerns of the noble Baroness and the way in which she raised them. I understand that there has also been an outbreak in Pangbourne in Berkshire, which is worrying because of the number of oak trees found in the wider rural area of that part of the country. Can the Minister give us some reassurance that everything is being done to tackle that outbreak? Furthermore, on resources, given that the end of April and the beginning of May is the crucial time of year for effective spraying, can I again ask the Minister to assure us that the resources are available to undertake such spraying work at the present time?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, of course I am aware of the outbreak in Pangbourne, which took place in 2010. It is too early to say whether we have eradicated the oak processionary moth because we cannot really talk about eradication until we have seen two years without any eggs or larvae around. We will report back in 2012 with the good news on that, if we have it. I shall repeat again what I said before: there are no problems with budgetary constraints in terms of fighting this problem.

Flooding: Defence

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Tuesday 29th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Quin]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with communities affected by flooding about their proposed flood defence allocations.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, the Environment Agency involves local communities and partner organisations from the earliest stages of a flood defence scheme’s life. The agency works with regional flood defence committees to agree the overall investment programme. Committees include local authority members and other local experts. Particular attention has been paid to working closely with communities to let them know spending decisions affecting 2011-12 and options for the future.

[Baroness Quin]

I thank the Minister for that reply but, as he knows, flood defence schemes in Leeds, York and Morpeth have been put on hold by the Government, as have other schemes. We have seen huge public concern in all these areas as a result. Are the Government prepared to look to reinstate these schemes and, if not, how do they propose to reassure the residents of those areas, who are worried both about being flooded and about not getting insurance cover for their homes in future?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I remind the noble Baroness that no schemes whatever have been cancelled. Some have been deferred, because obviously we have to make very difficult decisions about the money available. As I made clear in my original Answer, we will involve local communities in discussions, which is why we have consulted—and we are reviewing the consultation—about how we can see the money going further by allowing communities themselves to have an involvement in these schemes, and for communities themselves or for private money to come in to assist the public money that comes from Defra.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Monday 28th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Quin]

I, too, support my noble friend Lord Judd in his amendment. I was very struck by the support that, even in a very brief debate, he received throughout the Chamber with the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, who, we know, is strongly committed to the national parks, and the noble Lords, Lord Cameron and Lord Maclennan. The Government can be in no doubt about the strength of support for the national parks that clearly exists on all sides of the House.

As my noble friend told us previously, he is a vice president of the Campaign for National Parks. I am not involved in quite the same way, but I would like to thank the campaign for the briefing and information that it is always ready to send to Members of your Lordships' House.

I also thank the Government for clearly responding to some of the concerns expressed the last time that we debated this in Committee. In particular, they removed the national parks and Broads authorities from Schedules 5 and 6 to the Bill relating to the power to modify, transfer or delegate functions. Because of that, it is not surprising that the debate has focused on the continuing mention of these authorities in Schedule 3. I agree with the comments and concerns that have been expressed about this.

Obviously, mention was made of the consultation that has taken place and to which the Minister referred when we dealt with this in Committee. In Committee, he said that he and his colleagues were currently considering the responses to that consultation and were committed to announcing the outcome by the end of March. Well, the end of March is this week. Perhaps this evening the Minister might have something to say about the outcome of that consultation. At the time, he was thinking that we would probably get to this part of Report after Easter. None the less, given the interest and concern about this, we would like to know the preliminary findings of the consultation exercise.

In speaking this evening I want to reinforce the questions asked by my noble friend. The key one is why it is still felt necessary to include these organisations in Schedule 3 given the powers that Ministers already have under other legislation. Are there elements of the changes that the Government want to make that cannot be done via the legislation that already exists? We need an answer to that specific point in relation to national parks—it has been pointed out to me that perhaps the Broads legislation is somewhat different in this respect. What is not available to Ministers under the 1996 Act and other legislation mentioned by my noble friend that is already on the statute book?

We would like a list of the constitutional arrangements that the Minister feels are best dealt with in this Bill and cannot be dealt with by some other legislative instrument. Without information of that kind, what is being proposed still seems too wide, too open-ended and too vague. We are not in a clear position to judge what is in the Government's mind.

As we were reminded today, the 11th report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee stated that despite the welcome changes that the Government have made in the Bill, the committee is still very concerned about the,

“exceptionally wide delegated powers which remain in clauses 1 to 5 and 13”.

Given that concern and the importance to our country of the national parks and the Broads, we should get some answers to the questions that were well raised by my noble friend and others who took part in this evening’s debate.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, I will respond to Amendments 31 and 34 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. I would like to say to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, that there has been no element of his legs having been broken or anything like that. Sadly, my noble friend Lord Greaves is ill. He is not here, so we wish him well and look forward to seeing him back in due course.

I will also speak to Amendments 46, 53, 57, 58 and 59. Amendments 58 and 59 are in the name of my noble friend Lord Taylor. Amendments 46, 53 and 57 are in the names of my noble friends Lord Greaves and Lord Taylor, which gives some indication of where we are coming from on those issues.

I agree totally and utterly with the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, about the strength of support on her own Benches for the national parks and the Broads authorities. That is true of all Benches throughout this House, and I reiterate it on behalf of the Government.

We had a good debate on this matter in Committee on a similar group of amendments, and on that occasion I explained the Government’s thinking in placing these bodies in Schedules 3, 5 and 6. I shall make things absolutely clear on the scope of Schedule 3 for the noble Lord, Lord Judd, who seemed to imply that the provision could be used in a slightly wider way, with matters from other clauses. We do not think that Schedule 3 could be used to go wider than it is set out, and I hope that I shall be able to cover that matter in due course. We dealt with Amendments 3, 5 and 6, which stemmed from the consultation on the governance arrangements for those bodies, which honoured a commitment in the coalition agreement—our bible—and was run in close co-operation with the national parks and Broads authorities. We asked each authority to make recommendations following consultation on the changes needed for their governance arrangements. We were clear from the start that the objective was to improve the governance arrangements of those bodies and not to remove or replace them. For that reason, they do not appear in other schedules to the Bill—not in Schedules 1 or 2, for example. Our consultation began with these words:

“The Government wishes to retain an independent authority, as currently exists, for each of the National Parks and the Broads. It intends that these authorities should continue to be the local planning authority for their areas”.

The paper then went on to raise a number of questions about what modifications or refinements of the current governance arrangements might be desirable.

In Committee, your Lordships pressed me on the sort of steps we might want to take and on why those could not be achieved without this Bill, perhaps by using powers which already exist in the Environment Act 1995 or the Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006. Of course, at that time it was too early for me to be able to give concrete examples, as we were still at an early stage of evaluating the consultation. I have a slightly embarrassing admission to make, because at that stage I announced that we would have the outcome of our consultation by the end of this month. That has slipped a little, because that takes us into the period of local government elections purdah, and it will not now be until after the elections. At that stage, I still thought that Report stage might be after Easter, but one never knows quite what the Opposition will achieve in delaying government legislation. So there has been a degree of blame on all sides. But we have made significant progress in identifying what might be in our response. As a result, we have come to the conclusion that there is very little likelihood of the powers in Clauses 5 or 6—the powers to transfer functions and authorise delegation—being needed to implement any changes resulting from that consultation. For this reason, I propose to remove the national parks and Broads authorities from the schedules. That is why Schedule 6—because they are the only bodies left in that schedule—will disappear, and Amendments 46, 53, 57 and 58 have that effect. Amendment 59 is a consequential amendment that removes the reference to Clause 6 from Clause 7. Although it is clear that Clauses 5 and 6 are not required to implement necessary changes, the same is not true for Schedule 3, which deals with constitutional arrangements, so I cannot agree to the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Judd.

It would not be appropriate for me to pre-empt or predict the announcement that we shall make after the May elections. However, purely by way of illustration, the House will see a number of the suggestions which national parks authorities have already made. The proposals are—dare I say it?—largely in the public domain, having featured in various board papers produced by the authorities, and elsewhere. They include, for example, the power to remove the requirement for the Secretary of State formally to appoint the members whom parish councils choose and the power to allow non-councillors to be eligible for the parish seats, or to limit the maximum time that all members may serve on a national parks authority. Any of those points, if accepted, could be delivered through Clause 3.

I appreciate that noble Lords might feel that there are other ways of dealing with these things but we think it would actually be easier and better, under the powers in the Bill, to deal with those matters in that way. I therefore hope that your Lordships will agree that it is premature to consider removing Schedule 3 at this stage and that it should continue to stand as part of the Bill. There is no sinister motive behind that; all we are proposing is a power to amend constitutions and all the usual checks and balances are available in the Bill. We want to look at what comes out of that consultation. I have given some hint of that in what has appeared in the public domain but the noble Lord, Lord Judd, will probably know even more—the noble Lord smiles—about what might come from it. I hope that he will accept that this should continue to be part of the Bill.

As I said, we are perfectly happy to remove the national parks and Broads authorities from Schedules 5 and 6, which is why we have tabled our amendments. However, it is quite right that they should remain part of Schedule 3 on the power to modify constitutions. With those assurances, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Wednesday 23rd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, Amendment 5 relates to the advisory committees on pesticides and hazardous substances. The Minister will remember that we debated these committees in Committee. A number of questions were asked by my noble friends Lord Whitty, Lord Knight and Lord Berkeley, and by me. Since we feel that our questions were not properly answered, we will take this opportunity to press the Minister for further information.

My noble friend Lord Whitty asked why the two bodies had been chosen. He mentioned a number of other bodies that have similar functions. He was not advocating that they should be abolished, but was questioning whether the Government were being consistent. The bodies concerned deal with very sensitive public issues—pesticides and hazardous substances—that raise concerns for us all. They have done a good job in dealing with these issues, and have impressive arrangements for the accountability of their proceedings and the publication of their decisions, including electronically on websites.

My noble friends and I also felt that the issue went beyond the two bodies to wider issues about the role of advisory committees and the role of independent advice to Ministers. All of us who spoke strongly stressed this. The Minister acknowledged that the committees had provided independent, expert and impartial advice to Governments of all political persuasions. As he knows, Ministers are required to consult these bodies in certain circumstances. Will those requirements to consult on such issues remain in the new structures that the Government are proposing? How will the new structures be better than what is already in place, given that it seems that no money is being saved in the process? We are aware of how valuable the work of the committees has been up to now. How will openness, independence and accountability be strengthened by any of the arrangements? We urge the Minister to reply more fully this time to the questions that I have raised, that others may raise and that were raised in Committee. I beg to move.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, I hope that I can give a reasonable assurance to the noble Baroness when I set out our policy and show how we wish to be consistent in these matters. I hope that I will be able to reassure her that what we are doing is not purely about saving money, although again I remind her that where money can be saved, it should be. I think that even she would accept that point.

The noble Baroness’s amendment would prevent the Government abolishing the Advisory Committee on Hazardous Substances, the Advisory Committee on Pesticides and the Advisory Committee on Pesticides for Northern Ireland prior to reconstituting them as expert scientific communities. I noted very carefully the points made by the noble Baroness and others. She mentioned her noble friends Lord Whitty, Lord Knight and Lord Berkeley, who debated these matters in Committee. I was able, I hope, to give some reassurance on the key concerns expressed on that occasion. I am happy to do so again and I start off by doing just that.

There is absolutely no government agenda to restrict the flow and independence of impartial scientific advice to Ministers and others on the crucial matter of hazardous substances or pesticides. We want that independent advice, particularly for our negotiations with Europe, because obviously we have EU bodies that deal with these important matters. I am thinking about problems that we are currently having in negotiations with Europe about certain sprays that can be used on bracken, on which Europe seems to have a different view from ours. Bracken seems to present a problem for the United Kingdom but does not seem to bother much of the rest of Europe, where there is no bracken. However, it could have very serious consequences.

We want the proposed successor bodies to operate independently. We want them to continue to be able to put advice directly to Ministers and to be open in how they work and how that work is reported—for example, on their respective websites. However, the most important point that I want to get across is that we also want them to work more effectively. Our proposals for these committees are consistent with the approach that we are taking to all of Defra’s 18 scientific and technical advisory bodies. That is quite a large number of bodies that we are dealing with.

I think that the noble Baroness will be aware of the Written Ministerial Statement which my right honourable friend the Secretary of State gave on 26 January in another place, and which I believe I will have been repeated as a Written Ministerial Statement in this House, on developments relating to the Science Advisory Council, which provides advice to Defra. The new arrangements announced by the Secretary of State will maintain and enhance the independence and quality of the science and scientific advice underpinning policy. The Science Advisory Council and the Defra Chief Scientific Adviser—I pay tribute to all the work that he has done for us—along with the chief scientific officers in all the departments and the Government’s own Chief Scientific Adviser working together will provide oversight of all the Government’s and all Defra’s scientific committees, as well as challenge and scrutinise their work. We believe that this will yield a greater and more co-ordinated level of evidence assurance to meet Defra’s needs. All Defra’s scientific expert bodies, including the three committees covered by the amendment, will, we believe, benefit from that approach.

I turn to one or two specific questions asked by the noble Baroness. She asked how those scientific communities could work better than their predecessors. I assure her that there was a consultation at the end of last year on the government code of practice for scientific advisory committees, and the new arrangements for expert scientific committees will be aligned with the evolution of that code. Moreover, within Defra we are putting in place enhanced arrangements for our Chief Scientific Adviser to have oversight of, and offer support to, all Defra expert scientific committees with assistance from our Science Advisory Council. They will report through our chief scientific officer to Ministers. As I said, that was announced in another place by my right honourable friend on 26 January.

As I said, some 18 bodies were identified in the Defra scientific advisory landscape. After further analysis, the likely position is that six of those will be deemed to be scientific and advisory: the Advisory Committee on Hazardous Substances, the Advisory Committee on Pesticides, the Air Quality Expert Group, the National Standing Committee on Farm Animal Genetic Resources, and the pesticides committee and the Veterinary Residues Committee. Three will be retained as NDPBs: the Advisory Committee on Releases to the Environment, the Science Advisory Council at Defra and the Veterinary Products Committee. Others will be transferred elsewhere, and others which are no longer necessary will be abolished. Some will be retained but are no longer deemed to be science or advisory—for example, the Advisory Committee on Packaging, which relates to waste.

Obviously, we are taking a different approach with different committees. That, I hope, will explain to the noble Baroness why we are dealing with these three committees in this manner. I hope, with those assurances, which I appreciate I am repeating from our previous debate on these matters, that the noble Baroness will feel able to accept that we as Ministers, we as the Government and we as a department will still have the appropriate and necessary advice. I therefore hope that she will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

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[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, Amendment 7 stands in my name and in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, and my noble friend Lord Whitty. I would very much have liked the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, to have been present to move the amendment himself. I know that he has been unwell; we send him our continuing good wishes and hope that he will soon again be playing his full part, as he typically does in our proceedings.

I say from the outset that I am proud to be a member of the Unite union, which now represents agricultural workers. I joined what was then the Transport and General Workers’ Union on my first day in my first job at Transport House some 40 years ago. At that time, the Agricultural Workers’ Union was separate.

When we last debated the proposed abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board in Committee, some powerful speeches were made, not least by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, in introducing his amendment, and by some of his noble friends, including the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, who is in his place today. Memorable speeches were made by many of my noble friends. Those speeches were not just powerful but knowledgeable and drew on a great deal of background about the work of the Agricultural Wages Board during its existence, which, as we know, goes back a long way. It has had a successful history both in carrying out its detailed work and in promoting a harmonious way of doing business between farmers and farm workers in the countryside.

I hope that the Minister was impressed by the powerful speeches in Committee. He was going to reflect on the comments that were made, although his initial response was that he was not persuaded that the Government’s decision to abolish the board should be reversed. I hope that he has had time in the intervening period to reflect again on that point of view. Certainly, much was made in Committee of the lack of consultation in the Government reaching their decision. This was echoed in England and in Wales, which would also be affected by what the Government propose.

A great deal was said in Committee by the Government and their supporters to the effect that, now that we have a minimum wage, and given that the lowest grade of agricultural worker wage was, I think, 2p above that minimum wage—

[Lord Henley]

It was 3p.

[Baroness Quin]

It was 3p above—so this protection was not necessary. However, as many of my noble friends and other noble Lords pointed out at that time, the Agricultural Wages Board deals with many levels of remuneration. There are five other levels above the minimum wage. The fact that we have a minimum wage would not deal with that situation at all. In a way, the Government’s whole argument about the minimum wage was a red herring. There was an irony, however, in that the minimum wage and other social legislation that the Government prayed in aid for the vote in Committee were all very much opposed by the Conservative Government prior to 1997. Therefore, that did not comfort those of us who wanted to see proper protection for agricultural workers.

Many noble Lords pointed out that agriculture was in many ways unique. Indeed, that uniqueness was recognised in the fact that, when the other wages boards were abolished, the Agricultural Wages Board was allowed to continue. It was very much a reflection of the fact that agricultural workers may be employed individually or as part of a pair on a farm where they might be quite isolated from other workers in the same industry. A body that they can turn to which represents all agricultural workers is therefore a precious asset that helps to value the work of agricultural workers around the country.

It was also effectively pointed out by a number of noble Lords that many farmers also value the Agricultural Wages Board. Although the National Farmers’ Union in England has officially been in favour of abolishing the board, the NFU in Wales has taken the opposite view. In Scotland, too, there is support for the Agricultural Wages Board and how it operates. I also know that some farmers in England value the assistance that the board can give and feel that it helps them in what is sometimes an otherwise difficult and embarrassing negotiation with an individual worker on their farm. I do not know how widely the Minister has spoken to farmers about this; given the lack of consultation, I imagine very little. However, there is more support among farmers than is generally recognised. That is reinforced by the views from Scotland and Wales.

Concern was expressed, which I repeat today, about the abolition of the board having the effect of driving wages down, particularly in the grades above minimum wage. The noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, asked about this in our earlier debate. Concern was raised by a number of Members about pressure from supermarkets on our farming industry, which is already very strong. It might also have a knock-on effect in driving agricultural wages down. Many Members felt that the best way to deal with that was to go ahead with the introduction of a grocery adjudicator or grocery ombudsman. I know that a number of noble Lords have been pressing for that in recent Questions and debates. We are a little concerned that there is something of a go-slow on this appointment because it would help in terms of the relationship with the supermarkets and would be a much more effective way forward than abolishing the Agricultural Wages Board.

My noble friend Lord Whitty asked whether the Government would do an impact assessment of the effect of the abolition of the legal minimum on wage rates, given that when each of the other wages boards was abolished, rates in the relevant sectors fell. The Minister dismissed that idea, saying that it was not necessary, but I wonder whether he will rethink his policy of not doing any assessment of this kind.

I do not think it would be good for the rural economy if wages went down. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation has already pointed out how workers in the countryside need to earn more than those living in urban areas simply to have the same standard of living. The recommendations made in the Rowntree report are important to the debate today. Indeed, in the earlier debate my noble friend Lord Clark mentioned that the Agricultural Wages Board provides a benchmark and yardstick for many other workers in rural areas, so again the knock-on effect ought to be taken very much into account. If the Government succeed in their policy, perhaps the Minister will tell us who is going to monitor what is happening to agricultural wages and whether the Government have any plans to review the policy if, in the light of events, the consequences seem to be harmful to farm workers.

I mentioned that Scotland will retain the Agricultural Wages Board, but I am concerned about the position in Wales. Since our last debate I have looked up the debates that took place in the Welsh Assembly way back in October. The Minister there complained that no proper consultation with the Assembly had taken place, which rather contrasts with what the Minister said a few moments ago about far less controversial bodies having been discussed in depth with Members of the Welsh Assembly. In the exchange that took place in the Assembly on 6 October last, the Minister there said that it was clear that Defra did not intend to devolve any budget to the Assembly, and therefore if it had to reinstate the Agricultural Wages Board only in Wales, it would require considerable work and a funding allocation. I am puzzled about the timing because that debate took place last October and yet the proposal to abolish the Agricultural Wages Board is in the legislation before us today. I should like the Minister to comment on why the Welsh Assembly, under pressure from Defra, felt it had to act so quickly when in fact sanction for the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board will be given only when this Bill completes its passage through both Houses.

If the situation in Wales is unsatisfactory, it is also unsatisfactory in England. The lack of consultation is something that has to be deplored. Indeed, I believe that the Minister would have managed to get some changes through if he had embarked on such a consultation in England because I think that there was some appetite for simplification of the way the board works, as well as some reform and modernisation while adhering to the belief that the wages board overall does valuable work.

Some changes to be made by this Bill are very welcome, and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, briefly referred to that a few moments ago. It is therefore sad that on this issue the Government have so far remained stubborn and obdurate. They will not save much money and it does seem to be part of a political agenda—of paying off an old score. For all these reasons, I cannot stress how strongly I hope that the Government will announce a change of heart today. I beg to move.

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[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support the amendment of my noble friend and the right reverend Prelates and to say that I am struck by the powerful contributions that have been made in this short debate. They have been strongly in favour of the idea of an independent champion for the countryside and for the continuation in some way or other of the kind of work that the CRC has been engaged in recently. I was glad that it tempted the noble Lord, Lord Newton, to ignore his previous vow of good conduct and join in the debate, thus adding his very useful voice to those of other speakers.

My noble friend Lord Knight and the right reverend Prelates spoke from personal knowledge about the creation of the CRC and of the good reasons behind it. Certainly in its brief existence, if that is what it proves to be, it has done a lot of valuable work and has highlighted a number of important issues. It has addressed rural issues throughout the whole country. My noble friend Lord Myners mentioned Cornwall and I would mention the commission’s concerns about the future of the upland areas in my part of Northumberland. Indeed, the work of the CRC has been widely supported in this House in the various debates that we have held in relation to its reports—in particular, the report on the upland areas and the report on the future of rural communities generally.

I add my personal note of thanks to the CRC. I chair the Franco-British Council and not long ago we had a Franco-British conference on agriculture which, despite our well trailed differences on the CAP, turned out to be a harmonious occasion thanks to our common belief in the importance of the future of rural areas and in measures that are vital for the prosperity of those areas. In that conference the CRC and Dr Stuart Burgess in particular played a very valuable role for which I would like to thank him. All speakers have referred to the importance of having an independent champion so I hope the Government will give us details of how they expect that important function to be carried forward and how that independent role can be safeguarded. I hope, too, that the Government will pick up on the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, about rural-proofing. Those issues are also extremely important.

Ministers come and go, as has been pointed out. I do not altogether accept what the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, was saying about Labour versus Conservative in terms of agricultural knowledge and expertise. When I was a Minister in the agricultural department, partly because of the very big Labour victory in 1997, many Labour MPs represented rural constituencies and knocked at my door very effectively at that time. Some Ministers come into departments with a great deal of knowledge about their subject and some do not. Continuing to offer valuable independent and impartial advice is vital. I do not accept all the comments that were made about civil servants, many of whom, in my experience, can be bold and imaginative, and I welcome that. But I applaud the idea of continuing with a rural advocate that is going to be effective for the future and I look forward to hearing from the Minister how that is going to be safeguarded.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, the noble Baroness refers to Ministers coming and going. One of my noble friends quoted from PG Wodehouse a day or two ago. I remind the House of the remark: “She was a good cook, as good cooks go, and as good cooks go, she went”. I hope I will not be in that position, but I note that my noble friend Lord Marlesford, as my noble friend Lord Newton said, has served in a rural capacity as chairman of the Marlesford Parish Council. I never rose to those dizzy heights but, like many other noble Lords, I have served as a parish councillor and I imagine there is a great deal of expertise in this House, just as there is in all departments in government. I will return to that point later. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Knight, for mentioning the fact that I wrote to him. I wrote to all those who spoke in the debate that we had in Committee. I signed the letter off two days ago, so I apologise to the noble Lord for the fact that he received it only today and to other noble Lords who have not received it. I will certainly make it available to other noble Lords if it assists them in further discussions on this matter.

I join others in paying tribute to Dr Burgess. The Prime Minister has written to Dr Burgess as chair of the commission to confirm that the role of the Rural Advocate would not continue and to thank him for everything that he has done and for everything the commission has done and its considerable efforts in this role to date. The Government have concluded that no individual needs to be so designated in the future as they have very strong rural credentials of their own, which I will come to in due course, up to and including the Prime Minister himself and all my colleagues on the ministerial team in Defra. Again, I remind noble Lords what Defra stands for: Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. It was created by the party opposite specifically to be able to focus not just on the environment and farming but on rural affairs. A great many of us have close links with rural communities and considerable experience of rural affairs.

I shall say in due course a word or two about how we intend to make sure that we champion these rural issues, but I can give an assurance, which I think the noble Lord, Lord Knight, wanted, that if the change proves not be as effective as we believe it will be, we will always be willing to revisit these matters. This is a Government who listen; that was the point behind the letter that my right honourable friend sent. We do not believe that there is a shortage of independent voices outside government who are willing to act as advocates for rural people. My noble friend Lord Marlesford referred to the CPRE, of which he was a former distinguished chairman. My own late father was a chairman of the CPRE, and the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, who is not in her place, has also worked for the CPRE. I use the CPRE as just one example. It is not as though there is a shortage of people both in this House and elsewhere who can speak up for rural matters and make sure that voices outside government can be heard on this issue.

I again emphasise that the name of our department is the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. In our role as rural champions, and in the ministerial team, there is one particular Minister, my honourable friend Richard Benyon—the noble Lord, Lord Knight, referred to him—who will work closely with colleagues across all other departments. One should not think of this as a matter just for civil servants; it goes beyond that. It is a matter for Ministers in Defra and for Ministers pursuing these matters across departments. Coming back into government, I have found that there is much greater talk between, and much less of what we might refer to the “silo-isation” of, departments, particularly in this new coalition Government. It will be for my honourable friend to make sure that these matters are properly taken into account in making policy across government and that policy is appropriately rural-proofed.

As a result of that, an expanded rural policies unit within the department will support my honourable friend and all other Defra Ministers in their role as rural champions. The unit, which will be the centre for all expertise, will support and co-ordinate across government activity that is of critical importance to rural communities. The unit will represent a significant increase in capacity within government, having come from the CRC. It is now almost fully staffed, with 12 members of the new team having come from the CRC. It is currently developing its work programme and improving effective links with organisations representing rural interests. It has substantially expanded evidence, statistics and intelligence capacity to enable whoever happens to be in government to build and maintain a strong rural evidence base. That evidence will inform the unit's priorities and be used to influence policy across government, ensuring that rural concerns and potential solutions are heard by decision-makers. The unit will operate transparently and will publish all its evidence. It will work to build on the relationships with stakeholders that the department currently enjoys.

I hope with those assurances—

Agriculture: Farming

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Tuesday 22nd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am not sure that I can solve that problem in a 20-word answer. Obviously we will find it difficult to feed another 3 billion people within the next 40 years. Technological and scientific changes will all play their part, as will the Government and the industry. However, at this stage it would be rash of me to give the noble Lord too lengthy an answer.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, my noble friend has highlighted an important issue. Given that we want to increase food production and encourage new entrants into a profession which has a large number of older people in it, surely this is a matter for government as well as for local authorities. Local authorities may be tempted to sell because of their short-term financial constraints, but this may be against the long-term interests of the country. Does the noble Lord agree that Ministers should work with local authorities to ensure that this land remains as possible land for new entrants in the future?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, it is not only for short-term reasons that the counties have been selling off land. As I made clear, counties have been selling off acreages for a number of years, particularly under the previous Government. We have no powers to stop them under the Agricultural Act 1970; it has to be a matter for local authorities. However, there are other ways of getting into farming. Merely because the land has been sold does not mean that it has disappeared from agriculture; it may still be available for use under other means. That is why it is right to ensure that it is easy for people to rent land. The noble Baroness may be old enough to remember that a previous Labour Government introduced the Agricultural (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976, under which all tenancies were made inheritable. As a result, we saw tenancies dry up completely and utterly. It was only with reforms from the later Conservative Government that more agricultural holdings became available for letting, to the benefit of new tenants.

Agriculture: Pigs

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Monday 21st March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for highlighting the problems in the whole supply chain. We accept that it is in the retailers’ interest to ensure the long-term survival of British producers of pork, and we will do all that we can to achieve that. There is very little that the Government can do directly, but there are a large number of things that we can do indirectly, which is why I referred to the groceries code adjudicator and why I talk about government buying standards and a whole range of other matters. They are all small things, but they should all help.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, in response to my noble friend Lord Hoyle, the Minister talked about a draft Bill on the adjudicator later this year. However, given the urgency of and indeed the cross-party support for this, can we have an assurance that the adjudicator’s office will be up and running this year? Is that the Government’s aim?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness knows well, I cannot give the House that assurance. All I have said is that we will have a draft Bill this year, and we will take it from there.

Marine Licensing (Licence Application Appeals) Regulations 2011

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Wednesday 16th March 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I, too, welcome these regulations. I thank the Minister for bringing them forward today and for the way in which he spoke to them. As he pointed out, they have already been considered in the other place, where they were generally supported. Indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, recognised, they are supplementary provisions to the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, which, as he and the Minister pointed out, commanded strong cross-party support in both Houses of Parliament.

These regulations deal with licensing and enforcement issues. Under them, the Marine Management Organisation takes over most of the licensing and enforcement functions of the Secretary of State. We agree that the MMO is the suitable body to carry out these functions. We very much support the aims of making the system clear and transparent, which was one of the points that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, stressed. We also support the fact that these two instruments, which are obviously linked, are being taken together in this debate, but perhaps I could ask one or two questions relating to the instruments separately, arising from reading the documentation in front of us.

Regulation 5(2) of the licence application appeals regulations mentions that the instrument,

“may provide for payment to be made to the appointed person”.

However, it was not clear to me what kind of payment this was. Obviously, we are talking about an appeals system and we want people to feel that they are able to appeal if they believe that a decision has not been correct. I simply wanted to ask what kind of payment, if any, might be involved in that process. I may have misread it, but I would be grateful for clarification from the Minister.

The Minister will not be surprised to hear me question whether the MMO has the staffing and resources necessary to undertake these functions. Page 2 of the impact assessment mentions the cost to the MMO in terms of training, new forms that have to be produced, changes to the IT systems and so on. I hope that the Minister can reassure us that the staffing and resources are there to be able to carry out these tasks.

I note that for the licence appeals system there will be a review in three years, but under the notices regulations the review will be two years after the introduction of the system of new monetary penalties and notices. I am not quite sure what date that means for the notices system, but I wondered, given how linked the two things are, whether the review period should be more or less the same for both.

The notices regulations introduce a,

“more flexible toolkit of enforcement options”.

We support that. As the Minister said, these provisions apply only where the Secretary of State is the appropriate licensing authority, so we are talking about England. I wondered, however, whether the devolved Administrations will have a similar or even the same system and in particular, in terms of monetary penalties, whether the devolved Administrations will have systems that are very much aligned with the one that will be introduced in England.

I found the impact assessment generally very helpful. However, I refer the Minister to paragraph 61 on page 21, which talks about the cost of familiarisation with guidance. It says:

“It is assumed that 20% of those holding FEPA licence will each spend 40% of a working day familiarising themselves with the guidance”.

To me, that somewhat begs the question: what about the other 80 per cent? Perhaps the answer is elsewhere in the document; if I have simply misunderstood it, perhaps the Minister can put me right on that point, either now or in writing.

As my colleague William Bain noted in the other House, these regulations comply with the Hampton recommendations on taking unnecessary matters out of the courts. As the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said, they introduce a reasonable system, so I am happy to support these additional measures, which complement and supplement the 2009 Act.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness and to my noble friend Lord Taylor for their remarks. I will join my noble friend Lord Tyler in paying tribute to the previous Government—it is only occasionally that we do such things—for the passage of the Marine and Coastal Access Bill. I would also add how sorry we are that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, who spent so much time on that particular Bill, as my noble friend Lord Taylor remembers it, is not able to be here today.

As regards how this legislation works, my noble friend Lord Tyler said that the proof of the pudding will be in the eating, and he referred to the problem in terms of the definition of “complexity”. I can give some sort of assurance from my ancient memories as a pupil at the planning bar—a very, very long time ago—that this is well understood in planning law. In terms of transposing—perhaps I may use that EU expression—these matters on to general planning law, there will be a great problem. Obviously, there will be questions of fact and degree as to where something lies and whether it should be undertaken by written representation, by some other appeal or by general public inquiry. However, these matters have previously been dealt with without too much problem.

The noble Baroness, Lady Quin, first asked about payments. I understand that a salary or fee will be paid by the planning inspectorate to any appointed inspector, as has always been the case. That is what happens with terrestrial planning systems—they are paid for the work they do, as is right and appropriate. She also asked about staffing, saying that I would not be surprised by her question on whether the MMO would be able to meet its commitments. We have certainly taken advice from the MMO enforcement team on the level of resource required for this activity. It is perfectly happy that it has budgeted accordingly and will be able to deal with everything that it needs, as set out in the impact assessment.

I shall turn to the noble Baroness’s complicated question—I am not sure whether I have got it right—about the different review timescales we have set out for two different things. One is of three years and the other two years. I understand that we are committed to monitoring and reviewing the use of notices after two years. Obviously, appeals on that system are different. However, if I have not quite understood her exact concern, I will certainly write to her and set out a proper response.

I am grateful that there is general agreement on both these two orders and the fact that they should be agreed. If I have failed to answer any of the concerns expressed by the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, I will obviously do so in writing. In the mean time, I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I, too, welcome these amendments and am glad that they have been tabled. I welcome the comments that were made by the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, in introducing the amendments and the helpful background that he gave us. I also welcome the comments made by my noble friend Lord Borrie and by the right reverend Prelate, who I know has taken a great interest in this issue. Like the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, I welcome the fact that on this occasion we are dealing with this important issue at a civilised hour rather than in the early hours of the morning.

I believe that the amendments are necessary to try to clear up the confusion surrounding where in government machinery the adjudicator, formerly the ombudsman, will reside. In answer to a question by the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, on 7 February, the Minister said that he did not know where the adjudicator was going to be situated. That might have been a commendably honest reply, but now that we have had the chance to return to this subject today, I hope that we will be able to get more information about the Government’s exact intentions.

My noble friend Lord Sewel on that same day asked if the adjudicator could be part of this Bill. That is another reason why I welcome the amendments. Given all the controversial inclusions in this jumbo Bill, it would have been good to have something in it on which there is such clear, cross-party support.

When the Government announced in August last year that they were going to establish the adjudicator, the original expectation was of a draft Bill coming forward this past autumn. Given the strong cross-party support for this measure, the delay is regrettable. However, the Minister has said that the intention is to bring in a Bill this Session. In the other place, in Answer to a Written Parliamentary Question, mention was made of a draft Bill coming forward before Easter. Will there be a draft Bill first, and what will be the timing of the draft Bill and the full legislation to get the adjudicator’s role and work up and running?

The establishment of a supermarket ombudsman was favoured and initiated by the previous Government following a recommendation from the Competition Commission. From these Benches, I reiterate our strong commitment to that, as the Minister will be aware. One issue that has surfaced in recent debates in this House has been the scope of the adjudicator's remit. I notice that the adjudicator is called the groceries adjudicator, and I assume that his main function concerns food. But I was interested that in a debate that we had a week or so ago in this House on the ethical clothing industry, the Minister said that consideration could be given to widening the adjudicator’s remit. I welcome the fact that the Government are prepared to look at that, because supermarkets sell a great deal these days and have a strong position on their suppliers, whoever those suppliers happen to be. At the same time, while I welcome the Government’s openness on this matter, I would not want to see that as the cause of any further delay in the establishment of the adjudicator, because a very clear message has come from this debate that speed is extremely important and uppermost in people’s minds. Obviously, if there is a draft Bill, the scope and remit could be looked at—and perhaps the Minister could comment on that point.

The powers of the adjudicator, including naming and shaming and what further sanctions might be possible as a result, were mentioned by the right reverend Prelate. Again, any clarification from the Minister about that would be welcome.

This Bill must seem like a Christmas tree Bill to the many departments, with various items of business that they wanted to lumber on a jumbo Bill of this kind. However, while it might be a Christmas tree Bill for departments, it is a nightmare Bill for parliamentarians. I was very much taken with the phrase used by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe of Aberavon, who described it as a nuclear Bill. It abolishes and changes so many bodies, some big and some small, and rides roughshod over parliamentary procedures. However, this matter is one on which there is agreement between Parliament and Government and for which there is cross-party support, so I hope that the Minister will respond positively to the points that have been made.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, like other speakers, I am grateful that we are having this debate early in the afternoon. Sadly, I will also be doing the penultimate amendment that we are dealing with today, which might happen in the early hours of tomorrow morning—just as I did the penultimate amendment late on Monday, or early on Tuesday, a couple of days ago.

I should also say how grateful I was to hear quite such a large number of quotations from myself, from that relatively brief Question that we had on this matter on 7 February. It is gratifying to hear that so many noble Lords listened to what I had to say. I hope that I can add a bit to that in dealing with these amendments.

I start by repeating something that the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, said when he paid tribute to what the supermarkets have done for the consumer. That is very important to remember whenever we debate these matters; we forget it at our peril. They have given us greater choice, cheaper prices and, as the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, put it, possibly “improved the shopping experience”, whatever that means, but I think I have quoted him correctly.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Monday 7th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, the Public Bodies Bill contains many important bodies but it is somewhat frustrating to have to deal with important bodies such as these at something of an unsocial hour. However, I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Judd for speaking to the amendments in the way that he did, and indeed for moving Amendment 70 in the absence of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, to whom we wish a very speedy recovery.

These amendments relate to important bodies which are well established and, as the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, said, rightly attract a great deal of public enthusiasm and support. Therefore, we need to scrutinise this part of the Bill very carefully.

All noble Lords who have spoken in the debate have tried to get at the Government’s thinking regarding these bodies and why they have been incorporated into the Bill. Certainly, the attachment to the national parks and the Norfolk Broads is very clear-cut. The creation of national parks has been a big event ever since the Act of 1949, the designation of the first park being the Peak District. For our part, the Labour Government are proud of having presided over the creation of two new national parks in the New Forest and the South Downs.

As well as public support for the national parks, there is already a long-standing campaign for them, to which the noble Lord, Lord Judd, referred; he also referred to his role in that campaign. In a briefing, the Campaign for National Parks has submitted its views on the inclusion of national parks in this part of the Bill. I shall not read that out, but many of the points in the briefing have already been referred to by many noble Lords. I hope that the Government will look at the briefing carefully and respond to it before Report so that we feel we are better informed about the Government’s attitude and their intentions.

At present, as noble Lords have pointed out, there is a considerable amount of uncertainty. My noble friend Lord Hunt referred to the sword of Damocles hanging over organisations. There is a worry that what is being proposed will undermine the independence and the basic purposes of these organisations. Again, for that reason, I urge the Minister to give us some reassurance about what the Government have in mind on these issues. In many ways, it seems that we are doing things the wrong way round but, if the Government have certain changes in mind, they should come forward with them and try to make a convincing case for them, then have the consultation and then make the decision about the way forward. Putting national parks in the Bill appears to pre-empt the consultation, which has just closed, on the future governance arrangements of the parks.

My noble friend Lord Berkeley said that he understood that there had been no real consultation or discussion with the Government about the Norfolk Broads. I hope that the Government will address that point in reply. We have had consultation, which is something, but it would be good to have from the Minister a flavour of the results of that consultation and any interim thinking within the Government as a result of the responses to the consultation.

A number of noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Judd, asked whether the provisions in the Bill were necessary because it seemed that they could be covered by other legislation already in force, particularly the Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006. I am not absolutely clear whether that would cover the Norfolk Broads as well as the national parks. There seem to be claims that it could and claims that it could not, but perhaps that is something which the Minister could clarify in his response.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Deben, that I do not think anyone on this side is saying that things should be ossified for all time in terms of national parks or the Norfolk Broads or any other organisation. None the less, as the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, said, these schedules seem to be a rather heavy-handed way of approaching the issue. He also came out with an interesting thesis that perhaps we were influenced by legislation passed at the time when we were conceived or born. I was trying to think what might have been on the statute book when I was born but I do not know. Perhaps we should all check as a result of what he has said.

The Norfolk Broads were referred to by my noble friend Lord Berkeley. They seem to be very much akin to a national park but they have the additional special requirement that they have to protect navigation. They have the roles of conserving wildlife, enhancing natural heritage, promoting opportunities for understanding and enjoyment of the area, and have regard to the economic and social interests of those who live and work there. Therefore, it seems that we are talking about organisations which broadly have the same functions and purposes, whether it be the Norfolk Broads or the national parks.

More uncertainty has been created when there is already uncertainty because of the difficult decisions on funding that have to be taken. I know that there is considerable concern in my local national park in Northumberland at present. Indeed, a letter has been issued for a claim for judicial review because of the lack of consultation and the feeling that this has not been a fair and transparent process. We are talking here of people who are not natural opponents of the Government but who feel seriously about their responsibilities and want to have the necessary resources to carry them out.

The government amendment makes clear that we are dealing only with national parks in England. I understand that, but I hope that the Government will discuss with the devolved authorities the way forward for national parks—not in any way to impinge on the devolution settlement; that is the last thing I would want given the recent vote in Wales. However, the national parks are a precious asset for all of us. There must be many people in England who treasure Snowdonia, just as there are many people in the Scottish Borders who treasure Northumberland. For those reasons, I hope that there will be proper discussion with the devolved Administrations.

In conclusion, the Government's reaction is extremely important. We need reassurance about the valuable role that those organisations play. Given their popularity in the country as a whole, the Government tamper with them at their peril.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 70 and all the amendments that go with it, and obviously address the government amendments, Amendments 74A, 95A and 105ZA. I will not comment on what legislation was going through when I was born, as did the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington. The noble Baroness, Lady Quin, rather coyly refused to comment on what legislation might have been going through when she was born. Those are matters for all of us to think of in due course.

I underline and fully accept what the noble Lord, Lord Judd, said, about the importance of national parks and their iconic nature—the fact that they are national parks. As my noble friend Lord Deben said, they cover 9 per cent of the land area of England— or is it the UK? I forget which, but it is large. As my noble friend said—he did not use these words but I think that he would accept them—they should not be cast in stone. He did not want them to be protected in the way that some of the church lands were in the past until Henry VIII appeared. I am no Henry VIII on this occasion. I want full protection of the national parks and I want them to work as best they can. I hope that in dealing with the amendments I can assure the House that that is exactly what we are going about.

Currently, they are managed by bespoke public authorities. I make the point that they are bespoke and vary from authority to authority. They are not identical. They are constructed on local government lines, but those authorities have been doing an excellent job since they came into being, some as long ago as 1948, when the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, was conceived—or was it when he was born?—and for a long time since.

Just as they have been doing an excellent job, the local authorities, and the planning boards which preceded them—in some cases, until much later, thinking of the more recent national parks—also did a very good job. However, those authorities now face the challenge of ensuring that they can continue to deliver their core purposes in very different times: in what—dare I say it?—are rather straitened times. They seek to minimise the impact of the spending reductions on their front-line services and see how they can continue to improve what they can offer in some areas.

National park authorities have a long tradition of managing very small budgets, engaging with their local communities and making very good use of volunteers. That experience will serve them well in devising innovative approaches to delivering key services in future. The important point to get across—this is dealing with the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Judd, particularly when he discussed the six questions that were put by the Government to the national parks authorities and others in that consultation—is what they do in the future. We are currently considering the responses to that consultation on their governance arrangements and honouring the commitment made in the coalition agreement. The consultation closed on 1 February, and we are committed to announcing the outcome of that by the end of March. I can give an assurance to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, that the Broads Authority was consulted, as were all the other authorities, about what was going to happen and what it thought would happen. The six questions were put to it, and it was made aware of what the Bill would allow Defra and it to do. It might be that the Broads Authority and some of the others do not feel that they were consulted enough. If that is the case, the door will still be open, and my honourable and right honourable friends will listen to what they have to say.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, a number of important questions have been raised in this short debate and I am grateful for that. Indeed, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, for moving the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, who I very much supported in initially tabling these amendments. Like the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, I also pay tribute to the work of the internal drainage boards. The more that I have read about them, the more valuable they seem. Certainly I have received some letters about them from members of the public, seeming to value the work that they do in particular localities. I was amazed to read somewhere that these have a long history, going back to 1252. However, I understand that the more immediate legislative base of the work of the organisations actually dates from the Land Drainage Act 1930.

The noble Lord, Lord Cameron, said that he understood that no revision of the organisations had taken place in the past 10 years. I had understood that in 2004 there was some revision of the rules and procedures of the internal drainage boards. Perhaps the Minister could confirm that and tell us whether or not that revision of rules and procedures was successful or, indeed, whether there is some aspect of them that the Government feel that they want to make further changes to. Again, like the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, I am not really clear what the Government want to do by including these bodies in the Bill.

I endorse the comments that have been made that the bodies seem to be very flexible. They operate in ways that suit the different areas, and in that sense they are something of a success story—it is a case of local management responding to local situations, which seems to be in line with the Government’s thinking on localism. I also note, though, that the Government’s own paper explaining their attitude to the Public Bodies Bill says that one of the changes they want to make is to make the bodies more responsive to local needs and more reflective of local interests. My understanding is that they already operate in such a manner and involve local communities in the way that the Government seem to want them to. Perhaps the Government can explain that aspect of their policy.

The drainage boards play an important role in reducing flood risk, a tremendously important issue at present. As the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, mentioned, they also have an important role regarding the natural environment, even on such issues as vegetation clearance works, which they seem to do in a sensitive way. Indeed, when crises occur, many of them provide a 24-hour contact number and extended office hours. They seem to be organisations that work flexibly and well in all circumstances. One of the letters that I received mentioned the fact that the Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Natural Environment and Fisheries in another place said:

“From a personal point of view I see IDBs as a good example of what the Prime Minister wants to see happen around the big society. All the IDB members give their time, their local know-how and their skill, free of charge all for the benefit of wider society”.

Again, these are strong endorsements, so we need an explanation before Report of why exactly these bodies have been put into the Bill.

I echo the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, about the Environment Agency making decisions about these bodies in the circumstances that seem to be outlined. The agency itself is mentioned in the Bill and indeed in this group of amendments. Given the late hour and the complexity of the agency’s operations, I cannot do anything other than skirt over its role, but again it would be good if the Government divulged some of their thinking about the future role of the Environment Agency. Have they had discussions with the agency about its role or any suggested changes that the Government want to make?

Is it the Government’s aim to move forward with the consent and the agreement of the agency and its staff? That is also an important point. The agency has staff who are worried that somehow or other their status or their independent stance might be penalised if it is not felt to be totally in accordance with government priorities. They want reassurance about their role, their independence and their status in future.

I shall not say anything more at this stage but I hope that the Minister will be able to give us some information, if not entirely in the course of this debate then in writing so that we have good information on which we can base our attitude when these matters come up again on Report.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I might have to spend a few minutes on this but I hope I can satisfy most of the points that have been raised by noble Lords. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Maclennan for moving this amendment on behalf of his noble friend Lord Greaves.

As noble Lords will know, IDBs manage flood risk and the drainage of agricultural land. In doing so, they also seek to conserve and enhance the environment in those areas of special drainage need where they operate. They play an important role, which is recognised by their inclusion as flood risk management authorities in the Flood and Water Management Act 2010. Like my honourable friend Mr Benyon, I pay tribute to what the IDBs did in the manner that was cited by the noble Baroness, Lady Quin. She also made it clear that the Land Drainage Act 1991 sets out the IDBs’ functions and the arrangements under which they operate, but reminded us that those are based on considerably earlier legislation. She took us back to the 13th century. I do not know whether there was legislation at that stage but she is certainly right in saying that one can go back a long way.

The main issues that arise are restrictive arrangements on governance, limits on the functions of the IDBs and burdensome procedures for changing boundaries and other arrangements. In respect of governance, dealt with under Clause 3 and Schedule 3, the law currently means that, even where most of the funding is from local authorities, an authority can have no more than one member more than half the total membership of a board—the so-called bare majority. This weakens the incentives for efficiency, which would be present with a stronger relationship between sources of funding and levels of representation. I hope that the noble Baroness will accept that point. In addition, despite the wider environmental function of IDBs, there is no provision for specialist members to represent those functions, or other wider interests, on the boards. Experience has shown that specialists can add greatly to the effectiveness of boards.

In respect of the functions of IDBs, in terms of Clause 5 and Schedule 5, it is not proposed to transfer those functions to any other body—I give that assurance—or to take away any functions. However, simplification of some of the burdensome procedural requirements so that, for example, IDBs can formalise their rules or procedure with Environment Agency consent, rather than ministerial consent, requires modification of the functions of IDBs. In addition, as the Flood and Water Management Act 2010 imposes a sustainable development duty in relation to IDBs’ flood risk functions, and as their flood risk and drainage roles are hard to separate, it is important to align these duties to improve clarity and certainty. For example, where certain works have a bearing on soil carbon, this would be a relevant consideration whether the aim of the work was flood risk management or land drainage.

For the sake of flexibility and efficiency, we are also exploring the possibility of IDBs having the power to carry out other related water management functions in their areas. The Government will keep this under review and will propose a transfer of functions to the IDBs if and when that is appropriate. It is for these reasons that we have included IDBs in Schedule 5. This will mean a more flexible framework for IDBs, which will allow them to adapt to change and therefore put them on a stronger footing. I repeat the assurances that my honourable friend has given and his phrase about IDBs being part of the big society.

As I have explained, at present the procedure for IDB boundary changes, amalgamations and reconstitutions —that is, changes to board memberships and other matters relating to IDBs—is very lengthy and cumbersome, involving advertising and consideration of objections by the Environment Agency and Defra. We would like to simplify this process by giving the Environment Agency the power to approve these changes other than, for example, in the dispute cases. This is what the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, referred to. I make it clear to the noble Lord that cases described as “non-contentious” are those where there is no dispute. Therefore, in the non-disputed cases there would be no need to have ministerial involvement. I hope that that assurance will be sufficient to satisfy the noble Lord. The aim of that is to reduce the bureaucratic controls and to allow IDBs to be more responsive to change. For this reason the Environment Agency is also listed in Schedule 5.

There is also a lengthy procedure involving Defra and the Environment Agency in respect of varying maps that show the extent of watercourses deemed to be “main river”. The Environment Agency is responsible for those watercourses. Hence some changes can be significant but others relate simply to alterations in the course of a river. We propose to give the agency the power to make these changes in respect of uncontested, non-contentious changes. That again would reduce unnecessary administrative costs.

The noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, asked about the legislative timetable and whether there were other more appropriate Bills in which to tackle this issue. There is no guarantee that a water Bill will be brought forward. From my own experience over the years—no doubt this is the experience also of the noble Baroness, Lady Quin—I know that there is uncertainty about the legislative timetable and about obtaining the agreement of colleagues. The noble Baroness gives a wry grin but it is sometimes difficult to agree on relatively minor changes. Therefore, we think that it is prudent to provide for these relatively minor changes in the Bill rather than to delay them further. However, I give an assurance that the Bill requires consultation to take place before any order is made. I guarantee that that will take place.

Government Amendments 72A and 94A in the name of my noble friend Lord Taylor restrict the order-making power of government Ministers to IDBs that are wholly or mainly in England. This is a result of reaching agreement with the Welsh Assembly that it is more appropriate for Welsh Ministers to have this power for those IDBs which are wholly or mainly in Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Hunt for moving or speaking to the amendments that highlight the situation of a number of important organisations listed in the Bill. It is useful to highlight these issues in Committee and then evaluate how to take the debate forward at Report.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, I refer first to the JNCC. It was good to hear the knowledge that he acquired as a former member of that organisation. My understanding is that the JNCC acts as an adviser to Her Majesty’s Government and the devolved Governments. I ask the Minister what discussion there has been with the devolved Governments about the structure of the committee, its work and what changes are envisaged. I stress, as did the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, that the committee does a lot of important work: it has an important European role; it carries out important work on biodiversity, which is a priority for the Government and for most Members of this House; and it disseminates a lot of information to ensure, for example, that details of EU policy decisions in this area are disseminated to conservation bodies throughout the country and to other key stakeholders. Therefore, it has a lot of important functions.

Am I right in understanding that the changes that the Government are proposing to the JNCC are rather minor? It would be useful to know that. According to the information provided by the Government, the aim is apparently to improve the cost-effectiveness of the committee and reduce the environmental costs of its operations. I do not know what assessment has been made of its environmental costs, so perhaps the Minister can give us further information about that.

My noble friend Lord Hunt also mentioned the Marine Management Organisation, and I shared his surprise that it should figure in the Bill. It is a new organisation and was set up very much with cross-party support, which was very welcome. In a recent debate that we had in Grand Committee on a statutory instrument that made a minor change to the work of the organisation, I know that the Minister gave a strong endorsement of the MMO’s work. Therefore, I reiterate the questions asked by my noble friend. Why is the organisation in the Bill, and what changes, if any, are envisaged to its operation?

In this group of amendments there is also reference to the Drinking Water Inspectorate. Again, this has an important role in providing information on research, regulations and water testing products and in providing independent reassurance that water supplies in England are safe and that drinking water is acceptable to consumers. That independent scrutiny of water company activities is very important and we want to be assured that it is not going to be in any way jeopardised. Having looked at the DWI’s website, I can see that it provides a lot of information to the public in its list of events and in its general climate of openness. Again, I hope that that will not be jeopardised in any future changes.

Finally, another vital organisation is Natural England, which also figures in these amendments. Some considerations similar to those that apply to the MMO are relevant here. Although not as new as the MMO, Natural England is a fairly recent organisation. It was set up in 2006 with, I understand, all-party support. It establishes and cares for England’s main wildlife and geological sites, nature reserves, SSSIs and so on. It is also important in designating areas of outstanding natural beauty and so forth. It is probably best known to Members of the House as the body responsible for administering the agri-environment schemes—environmental stewardship schemes and others—amounting to some £400 million a year. That is obviously a vital role which will need to continue in the future.

Can the Minister clarify in what areas the Government envisage Natural England charging fees for its activities? I understand that that has been mentioned. Perhaps the Government can also give us an indication of future funding changes relating to Natural England. Our view is that we do not want to undermine the effectiveness of what seems to us to be a very effective organisation. Again, therefore, as with the other bodies in this group of amendments, we would like some reassurances that will help us to decide how to examine these issues as we proceed towards Report.

[Lord Henley]

The noble Baroness suggested that what we are dealing with are rather minor changes. I can assure her that they are not rather minor but very minor. The amendments would remove these four Defra bodies from the Bill, which would be unfortunate as the very minor changes that we are proposing are not only modest but help to improve the efficiency of these bodies. They remove a financial burden from the taxpayer, which is something that we should all seek to do.

I shall deal with the four bodies in turn, starting with the Joint Nature Conservation Committee. As the noble Baroness says, it advises the Government and the devolved Administrations on behalf of United Kingdom conservation bodies on UK-wide and international nature conservation. Its core role is to co-ordinate biodiversity surveillance and information management across the United Kingdom in support of better policy implementation and decision-making to help to meet the UK’s EU and international obligations.

In consultation with the devolved Administrations, which jointly fund and sponsor the JNCC and the United Kingdom conservation bodies, the Government seek to ensure that it is operating as efficiently and as cost-effectively as possible. I wish to make it clear that the JNCC fully supports those aims and the committee has discussed a number of measures such as reducing the number of board and committee meetings and reducing the number of committee representatives. The committee has also discussed a proposal to amend its corporate status to allow it to operate as a conventional non-departmental public body, rather than through a company limited by guarantee, as at present. All those changes will enable the JNCC to streamline certain administrative procedures and to reduce its running costs. Some of these proposals—for example, reducing the number of committee representatives—would require changes to primary legislation. That could be the subject of an order made using powers in this Bill. That is why it is listed in Schedule 3.

Other bodies are listed in Schedule 4 in order to modify their charging powers. The reason is not to increase the funding of these bodies but to ensure that those who create the costs of carrying out functions bear that cost. At present, those costs are not fully recoverable and, as a result, the burden falls on taxpayers. I should like to set out the proposals in respect of each body. Starting with the Drinking Water Inspectorate, the Government propose to enable the DWI to implement a charging scheme to enable the inspectorate to recover the cost of much of its regulatory work undertaken on behalf of the water industry. At present the DWI is funded entirely by Defra and, therefore, its costs of operation fall to taxpayers. Allowing the inspectorate to charge the industry for its regulatory work will result in a saving to taxpayers of around £1.9 million a year. On the introduction of a charging scheme, water companies will be able to pass on the costs to consumers, which we reckon will increase the average annual water bill by some 15p, not a very large sum.

The MMO, as the noble Baroness rightly reminded us, is a very new body. It was created under the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. Many noble Lords, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, who sadly is not here today, will remember with much fondness the passage of the Bill through this House. There are charging provisions relating to marine licensing in that 2009 Act. I understand why the Committee might wonder why we need to modify those so soon after the Act was adopted. We are proposing the inclusion of the MMO for specific purposes which would avoid taxpayers subsidising marine licence applicants. The main purpose is to allow us to remedy a shortcoming in the 2009 Act, although I fail to understand why there should be a shortcoming in an Act passed by the previous Government. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, will remember its passage. The shortcoming prevents the MMO from fully recovering the costs that it will incur in relation to marine licences, once the new marine licensing system comes into force in April this year. I stress that without that power there would be costs that would have to be met by taxpayers.

Natural England is also included in Schedule 4 to modify its charging powers. This is solely to remove an ambiguity under existing law. Natural England already has powers to make charges in relation to its licensing functions under a variety of enactments. These powers are all worded in a way which gives rise to doubts over their scope. For example, although it can create a charge for issuing licences, it is unclear whether the existing powers allow Natural England to make a charge where it receives an application for a licence which is subsequently withdrawn or refused. Natural England is therefore included in Schedule 4 so that the Secretary of State can amend and clarify existing legislation and thereby make the extent of the existing charging powers clearer.

Finally, I turn to the government amendment, Amendment 79A. As noble Lords will understand from debate on previous amendments, it restricts the order-making power of Ministers to the Drinking Water Inspectorate in England. Welsh Ministers will be given corresponding order-making powers for the DWI in Wales through the appropriate provisions in the Bill.

I hope that the Committee will be prepared to accept Amendment 79A and that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, will feel able to withdraw his amendment and not press the others in the group.

Trees: Sudden Oak Death

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Thursday 10th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, it is clear that the Forestry Commission is well aware of the risks associated with not treating or responding to this disease. However, as revealed by the commission in a recent memo to staff, it is equally clear that the Government have not given it funding to deal with it. To use its words:

“There is no capacity to deal with costs of disease or other calamity”.

Why have the Government not allocated money to the Forestry Commission to deal with this very real threat, which the noble Lord has outlined? Furthermore, how do they expect voluntary groups to be able to fund these crucial activities on top of buying forests at market rates?

[Lord Henley]

The noble Baroness is being somewhat misleading. I have made it very clear that we have a £25 million programme over five years to identify ways of dealing with this disease. That is the important matter. As with all plant diseases, it is then a matter for the individual owners, whether they be the Forestry Commission or others, to take appropriate action to fell that timber and sell it on the open market because it still has some value, even if that is depressed. Compensation for felling trees has never been paid, under either this Government or previous Administrations, when a plant disease of this sort occurs, and we will continue with that process. However, we think that the Forestry Commission is perfectly adequately funded to do this. Further, parts of FERA—the plant health division—are actively recruiting extra staff, particularly to identify diseases at airports and other locations, to try to prevent any more diseases of this sort coming into the country.

Forestry Commission

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Wednesday 2nd February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I remember the Bill in 1981. Although I cannot remember specific parts of it, I am aware of the concerns relating to the Forest of Dean. I know that the Leader of the Opposition also has concerns about this. We will look at the amendments from the right reverend Prelate’s colleague when we get to that stage—if we ever do—in the Public Bodies Bill, and we will then respond in the appropriate manner.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, how does the Minister justify the classification of forests in the consultation document and how was it decided? While I hope we all agree on the importance of the Forest of Dean and the New Forest, describing a forest such as Kielder simply as “commercial” flies in the face of the fact that it contains 31 areas of special scientific interest, is home to most of England’s remaining red squirrels and has become increasingly important in recent years for tourism and recreation. How does the Minister justify this?

[Lord Henley]

As the noble Baroness will be aware, it is commercial woodland on an area that used to be open moorland. She and I know that part of the country very well. It is now covered in what people refer to as serried ranks of conifers and should be treated as commercial woodland. The important point is that the manner by which we propose to realise assets from it will mean that we can protect various areas. The sales conducted by the previous Government of some 25,000 acres were made without any protection whatever.

Japan: Whaling

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Wednesday 2nd February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, we have no direct evidence of vote buying or corruption, although I have to say that some of the voting at last year's IWC meeting in Agadir seemed somewhat odd and possibly resembles the Eurovision Song Contest. Having said that, we will continue to press our case at this year's IWC, and I hope that we will achieve similar success to what we achieved last year at Agadir.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I welcome the fact that despite the change of government, UK policy on whaling seems to have emerged unscathed and unchanged. Given that the UK will be hosting the next IWC meeting, the importance of preparing for this meeting is even more pressing. From his contacts so far, how does the Minister assess the prospects for reform of the IWC at that meeting, and how does he assess the likelihood of getting together the alliance that we need to promote the policies that the UK Government favour?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble Baroness for her comments. We will certainly continue with the policy on which Her Majesty's Governments—of all parties—have concluded for a number of years. We will continue to work with the IWC and hope to achieve success there. The important thing is that we also work within the EU to ensure that the EU speaks with a united voice on these matters. I offer praise to my honourable friend Mr Benyon, who last year at Agadir got the EU to speak as one bloc on the matter. It is very important that the EU continues to do that at St Helier this summer.

Birds: Farmland Populations

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Tuesday 18th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I did not say that it was an aim of Defra: I said that control of predators where possible was one matter among many that should be addressed by all those involved in farming and the management of land. That would help to increase the diversity around and improve the habitat for the birds that we are so concerned about.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, given the difficulty in halting the decline of farmland birds, despite the huge efforts of volunteers and despite the environmental schemes that we have, will the department bring together all the interested parties to try to work out an effective way forward? Will the Minister also give a firm commitment to continue funding the environmental schemes such as the Higher Level Scheme, which seem to have been more effective in tackling this problem than others?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I would have thought that what we do for the Campaign for the Farmed Environment is exactly what the noble Baroness is talking about in terms of the leadership that she would like from Defra. We will continue to support its work and support agri-environment schemes because we think that they are one way forward to help improve biodiversity for birds. Obviously, they take a very long time before they have any effect on the decline in birds which, as my noble friend made clear, has been going on some 40 years.

Welfare of Farmed Animals (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2010

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Wednesday 8th December 2010 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, these regulations implement Council directive 2007/43, which establishes for the first time rules governing the conditions under which meat chickens are kept and the monitoring of the birds in slaughterhouses for poor on-farm welfare. The directive is unique in that it looks not only at inputs but at welfare outcomes.

A small section of the directive dealing with mutilations will be implemented through the regulations which the Committee has just discussed.

These regulations apply to holdings with 500 or more birds. They do not apply to breeding stocks of meat chickens, hatcheries or chickens marketed as extensive indoor, free-range or organic. However, these birds are subject to the provisions of Schedule 1 to the welfare of farmed animals regulations 2007, which sets down general conditions for the way in which animals are kept. For the purposes of these regulations, we have defined the chickens in scope as “conventionally reared meat chicken”.

Meat chicken welfare is an important issue. Around 850 million meat chickens are produced in the UK per year and 4 billion across the European Union. The United Kingdom is one of the largest meat chicken producers in the EU, and the total value of the UK industry is estimated at £1.6 billion. There has also been an increase in public awareness of meat chicken welfare over recent years, reflected in significant sales of chicken produced to higher welfare standards by major retailers.

The directive came into force on 30 June 2010. There has been a delay in implementing it in English law due to the change of government and the new processes that have been put in place to ensure the close scrutiny of all new legislation. However, I know that the industry and enforcement bodies have started to take account of the EU legislation in their activities, including training, and I much appreciate their commitment and good will in working with us on implementation. It has been an example of partnership working at its best.

Currently, there is no legal maximum stocking density for meat chickens in England. The directive permits member states to allow a maximum stocking density of up to 42 kilograms per square metre provided that certain criteria are met, including a challenging cumulative daily mortality figure over seven consecutive flocks. Therefore, a producer would have to meet these criteria and provide the evidence before being allowed to stock at 42 kilograms per square metre.

We have decided not to take advantage of this derogation on animal welfare grounds. The draft regulations set instead a maximum stocking density for conventionally reared meat chickens of 33 kilograms per square metre, with the opportunity to stock up to 39 kilograms per square metre provided that additional house documentation requirements and environmental parameters are met. This is in line with the commitment in the coalition agreement to improved standards of farm animal welfare.

There is evidence that meat chicken welfare can be compromised at densities higher than 40 kilograms per square metre. A Defra-funded study at Oxford University showed that, while mortality and leg defects were not compromised at higher stocking densities, other measures were affected, such as jostling, a reduction in growth rate and fewer birds showing the best gait scores, which is an assessment of chicken walking ability. The Farm Animal Welfare Council has also advised against the adoption of a maximum stocking density of 42 kilograms per square metre. In addition, more than 90 per cent of domestic chicken production is currently subject to assurance scheme requirements, which operate at stocking densities at or lower than 38 kilograms per square metre.

Adopting this approach allows us to show leadership on animal welfare. The industry should aim to provide consumers with this information and promote the fact that English chicken meat meets the higher welfare standards set by this Government. Consumers can then make an informed choice. We are not alone in setting a maximum stocking density of 39 kilograms per square metre. I understand that Wales and Scotland have also already taken this approach.

However, we are not going to set this stocking density and walk away. The maximum stocking density will be reviewed as part of the post-implementation review of the regulations. In addition, the EU Commission will publish a report in 2012 looking at the directive’s application and influence on chicken welfare.

We intend to commission a socioeconomic research project to assess the impact of implementing the regulations on the relevant monetary and non-monetary costs and benefits identified in the impact assessment. As part of that, the analysis will look at the impact of the regulations on the industry, enforcement body activity, the effectiveness of slaughterhouse welfare triggers, welfare outcomes and the experience of other member states, some of which will be operating a maximum stocking density of 42 kilograms per square metre.

As I mentioned earlier, the regulations are unique in that they will also look at the welfare outcomes for the birds. All birds will be subject to post-mortem inspections in the slaughterhouse for possible indications of poor on-farm welfare.

For flocks stocked at over 33 kilograms per square metre, mortality information will also be assessed as an indicator of poor welfare. “Poor welfare” will be defined through the setting of welfare triggers for mortality and post-mortem inspections in the slaughterhouse. Any concerns will be communicated to the producer and to Animal Health in order for them to take appropriate action. That might include the drawing up of an action plan in conjunction with Animal Health to outline how a welfare problem will be addressed.

This system of welfare triggers will allow for a more consistent approach across slaughterhouses to the identification of potential on-farm welfare problems. The welfare triggers have been based in part on a pilot study that saw some of the largest meat chicken companies working with us and Animal Health. This is another good example of people working together to improve welfare.

As highlighted, these draft regulations are certainly an important step in improving the welfare of meat chickens and I commend them to the Committee.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, the Opposition are generally supportive of these regulations and the directive behind them. Indeed, the directive was agreed in European Union negotiations under the previous Government, and the regulations implement the directive here. The Minister is correct in saying that this is a useful and important step forward. This is the first time that rules governing conditions under which meat chickens are kept have been agreed at EU level and there is monitoring of birds for poor on-farm welfare. That incorporates some of the animal welfare concerns, which are very recent concerns in EU legislation, so I welcome that.

The Minister was also right to stress that this is an important industry for us. Very often in the EU context we tend to think that other countries are more agriculturally focused than we are, but in terms of this industry, as the Minister pointed out, the UK is one of the largest chicken producers in the European Union. The industry's total value has been estimated at £1.6 billion.

Obviously, the regulations also relate to public concern in terms of the increased demand for food that is produced to higher welfare standards. There has been an increase in the number of consumers wanting assured produce in terms of animal welfare as well as other things. Speaking as a consumer rather than a parliamentarian, I find that the labels can sometimes be confusing with all the different assurance schemes that exist. I know that this has been tried for a number of years, but it would be good if we could move towards more simplification and greater certainty for consumers in this respect. None the less, the trend that we have seen overall is a welcome one.

In general, the Government have tried to strike a balance between animal welfare concerns and the dangers of getting into a situation where we become over-reliant on imports that do not meet the same high standards. It has been a difficult balance to strike. I agree with the Government that the limit of 39 kilos per square metre should be supported, as should not going up to 42.

The Minister rightly said that Wales and Scotland are working along similar lines. I understand, however, that in Northern Ireland a limit of 42 kilos per square metre has been sought. While I fully respect the devolution settlement and the ability of different jurisdictions to decide on their policies, it none the less would be a desirable goal for the UK to operate similar conditions for trading reasons, just as it is a good idea for similar high standards to operate throughout the EU as a whole, even though that is a much more ambitious goal. I do not know whether the Minister has had any discussions with his Northern Ireland counterparts about this, or whether there are special reasons for this of which I am not aware.

The Minister also said that we are not going to walk away from trying to improve standards as time goes on. I think that those were his words. While we have not gone much beyond the minimum standards of the EU in these regulations, what does the Minister see as the possibilities for reducing stocking densities further—from, say, 39 to 33 kilograms per square metre? Does he see us moving in that direction over the next few years?

The regulations are slightly late in being introduced to Parliament but that is not surprising, given that an election took place earlier this year. Does the Minister have any information about whether the regulations and the directive have now come into force in other member states, or whether there are some member states that have not yet adopted the legislation in the way that they are supposed to?

Information from the British Veterinary Association raised some concerns that it originally had about the proposed regulations. It wanted more detail on environmental enrichment to reduce the risk of leg problems in poultry, on litter management to maintain optimum conditions and on the importance of floor temperature. Does the Minister know whether the various concerns raised by the British Veterinary Association have been met?

I recognise that there are costs attached to these regulations. What I did not quite understand from the Explanatory Memorandum is how much of the costs involved are on-farm costs and how much are off-farm, relating to slaughterhouses, inspection processes and so on, to see whether animal welfare issues have arisen. If the Minister does not have that information immediately to hand, I would be happy for him to write to me. It could be, however, that it is in the information and I just have not managed to spot it.

Compliance with these regulations will be very important. The impact assessment accompanying the directive states that there was a 19.1 per cent failure rate for compliance with existing meat chicken welfare standards. Do the bodies concerned, which I understand are the Food Standards Agency and Animal Health, have the resources to try to ensure full compliance with these regulations? I know that the Minister in another place said firmly that he was determined to stamp out abuses in animal welfare practice, but it would be good if the Minister could give us any further information on this.

Finally, repeating something that I said earlier, which the Minister was kind enough to agree with, building alliances for higher welfare standards will be very important at European Union level. I wish the Government well in that task.

Mutilations (Permitted Procedures) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2010

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Wednesday 8th December 2010 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the draft regulations, which we hope will be agreed by the House later. The coalition Government are, as always, committed to improved standards of animal welfare. It certainly forms part of my own department, Defra’s, structural reform plan.

These regulations remove the ban on beak-trimming of laying hens which is due to come in on 1 January 2011, to allow for routine beak-trimming of day-old chicks intended for laying to be carried out using the infra-red technique only, with other methods restricted to emergency use only. I recognise that this issue has generated a lot of interest in another place. A Written Statement was provided to both Houses last month setting out the background behind these amending regulations, explaining the Government’s determination to work closely with the industry with the objective of making a ban on beak-trimming possible in 2016. That is a commitment that I made and that my honourable friend Mr Jim Paice made in a Written Statement some two months ago.

The current position is that the UK makes use of a derogation in the EU Council Directive 99/74/EC on the welfare of laying hens, which allows for beak-trimming of laying hens that are less than 10 days old if carried out by qualified staff. The procedure is only permitted to prevent feather-pecking and cannibalism, which is a common but unpredictable behaviour in commercial flocks of laying hens and a significant welfare issue. The Mutilations (Permitted Procedures) (England) Regulations 2007 implement this derogation but only allow routine beak-trimming to be carried out until 31 December 2010, after which beak-trimming of laying hens would be banned.

The ban was put in place when the laying hens directive was implemented in the UK in 2002, allowing eight years to develop a strategy to manage birds without the need to beak-trim. The Beak Trimming Action Group—comprising representatives from industry, welfare groups, Defra, scientific and veterinary professions—was established to develop this strategy. However, progress in the control of injurious pecking in England has not been sufficient to implement a ban on beak-trimming without causing a significant risk to animal welfare. In the mean time, a new infra-red technique was developed and is now used to beak-trim birds commercially, as an alternative to hot-blading. Currently, the infra-red technique is used on 95 per cent of all beak-trimmed laying hens.

The Farm Animal Welfare Council reviewed the evidence in 2007 and 2009 and recommended that the ban on beak-trimming should be deferred until it can be demonstrated reliably under commercial conditions that laying hens can be managed without beak-trimming, without a greater risk to their welfare than that caused by beak-trimming itself. The FAWC recommended that infra-red beak treatment should be the only method used routinely, as the evidence indicated that it does not induce chronic pain.

The Government’s long-term goal is to ban routine beak-trimming, but FAWC’s advice represents a sensible and pragmatic approach in the circumstances. A ban on beak-trimming for laying hens at this time would result in significant welfare problems through outbreaks of feather-pecking and cannibalism. It is therefore right that the legislation needs to be amended to remove the impending ban, which would otherwise come into force on 1 January 2011.

The Government see the proposed removal of the ban very much as an interim solution. The previous Government’s consultation on proposals to amend the legislation did not propose any dates to review the policy or for a future ban. This Government have taken heed of the strength of feeling on this issue and decided to adopt the Farm Animal Welfare Council’s recommendation of setting a review date of 2015. We will assess the output of this work, with the objective of banning routine beak-trimming in 2016. The Beak Trimming Action Group will be reconvened; its first meeting has been arranged for January. We are committed to working with the group to find solutions to this very complex issue. The group will establish an action plan to include the key milestones which were laid out in the Written Statement, leading up to a full review of beak-trimming in 2015.

The review will consider results of ongoing research projects that are investigating practical and realistic ways to rear laying hens without the need for beak- trimming. Bristol University, for example, funded by the Tubney Charitable Trust, is carrying out a three-year intervention study. It is developing a trialling and advisory package to help producers reduce the risk of injurious pecking through changes to housing and husbandry. All the key stakeholder groups are on the steering group for this project, with representatives from industry, welfare organisations, researchers, economists and Defra. The Beak Trimming Action Group will begin to consider the outputs from this study next summer.

We recognise that any future strategy will have to identify the lessons that can be learnt from those countries that already have a ban in place or just do not beak-trim, such as Austria, Sweden and Switzerland, so we have asked the industry to undertake some study tours to such countries. Feather-pecking is greatest in systems of management which do not house birds in cages. Therefore, the risk to the welfare of laying hens from injurious pecking is likely to increase after the ban on conventional cages comes into force on 1 January 2012. A review in 2015 will allow producers time to increase their experience of managing flocks in alternative systems.

The review in 2015 will assess the achievements on eliminating beak-trimming to date and advise whether a ban on routine beak-trimming of laying hens will achieve the maximum welfare outcome, which is what we desire, with a view to reinstating the ban in 2016. These regulations will improve existing welfare standards for laying hens in the short term while we work hard to find a lasting solution, which will bring an end to the need for routine beak-trimming. They also complete the implementation of Council Directive 2007/43/EC by implementing the mutilations provisions for meat chickens and I commend them to the Committee.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for explaining the instrument. We fully support the aim of ending beak-trimming and the general desire across government to do so. As the Minister explained, without this instrument the ban would legally have come into force although, given the difficulties, I imagine that even had there not been a change of Government we would have been in a similar situation, particularly given the responses to the consultation that the previous Government held earlier this year. There is the difficult equation of balancing a possible deterioration in animal welfare standards by not continuing with the derogation and the concern that changing the system at this point could have meant that we would have had extra imports coming in from countries with lower welfare standards. I can therefore see some of the difficulties that were involved in calculating how to take this issue forward for the future and, for that reason, I understand the action that the Government are proposing in these regulations.

As the Minister said, however, there is considerable public and parliamentary interest in this issue. That is not surprising because there is a strong degree of commitment to animal welfare among the public and in Parliament and to seeing increased animal welfare standards for the future. Certainly, that concern was reflected in an Early Day Motion in the other House, which was proposed by a Conservative but endorsed by Members from many parties, particularly my own. Their desire is that beak-trimming should be brought to an end as soon as practicable. Indeed, that underlines the idea of creating some kind of deadline for this to happen, which the Government have done in deciding on the review period and the ban date as the Minister outlined to us.

Obviously, 2016 is some time off. I am not trying to make a party-political point because I know that the process has already been a long one. None the less, if there are any other ways of trying to shorten the timetable I would certainly encourage the Government look at them. One aspect of the work that needs to be undertaken between now and then is the study tour of EU and other European countries that do not have beak- trimming. I would have thought that that work could start soon and I understand that it will be proceeded with expeditiously. I understand what the Minister said about the three-year research project. That obviously takes us to some time in the future. However, having said that, I certainly hope that at the very least the timetable that has been set out can be adhered to.

I do not know whether the Government considered putting the deadlines in the regulations, but I hope that it will be made very clear that this is the deadline to which the Government are working. It would not be good for a signal to be sent out that nothing much will be happening immediately so therefore people do not need to worry about it. That has been a problem in the past and we do not want it to be a problem in the future.

On another issue, I strongly support what the Minister said in terms of favouring the infra-red method as opposed to the hot-blade method. As he said, 95 per cent of production is subject to the infra-red method. However, the regulations say that in the case of a sudden outbreak, it would be possible to use the hot-blade procedure. I understand from the debate that took place in the other House that such emergencies have not occurred recently. None the less, I note that the British Veterinary Association, in its response to the Government, is concerned that the regulations could be interpreted as allowing the arbitrary use of hot-blade beak-trimming after 10 days to control moderate or even minor outbreaks of injurious pecking. The association felt that in order to counteract that, the term “emergency” should be more clearly defined. Has consideration been given to that as a way forward? Or is it that, as was described in the other House, the concerns of the British Veterinary Association are not causing too much worry to the Government at present because this procedure is not really being used at the moment?

The regulations state that holdings with fewer than 350 birds are exempt from the regulations. I would like to ask the Minister a little more about that. Why should not the infra-red technique be prescribed for those holdings as well? I do not know whether there is routing beak-trimming in holdings with fewer than 350 birdsI note that in the debate in the other place the Minister said that such holdings would in any case be covered under the Animal Welfare Act, which was passed by the previous Government with all-party support. If the provisions in that Act were sufficient, why would these regulations be necessary? I am not quite sure why the older Act is sufficient in the case of holdings with fewer than 350 birds but not for holdings with more than 350 birds. The very helpful Explanatory Memorandum says that there are 1,323 holdings housing more than 350 laying hens. Does the Minister have any statistics for how many holdings have fewer than 350 birds? I could not see that information in the Explanatory Memorandum. If it is there, I apologise for having missed it.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Wednesday 1st December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

I do not think that it is necessary for that work to have been done. As I said, we believe that with the abolition of the board the industry will be able to operate more flexibly, which would lead to more job creation and better opportunities. What the noble Lord and others have been asking us to do is describe what picture, as they put it, we see for the future. I believe that it is one where it is open to the industry to come together to set up its own system. Again, I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, who said that the NFU ought to be out there seeking to put something together. What I did not hear from the representatives of Unite or Unite’s predecessor, the Transport and General Workers’ Union, was whether they were prepared to come together with the NFU and put something together. I do not see why the NFU, Unite and other industry representatives cannot come together and create their own advisory committee to discuss these matters. We do not think that it is necessarily a matter for the Government.

[Baroness Quin]

If I could follow up on my noble friend’s point, I thought that the Government had said that they would routinely carry out impact assessments in coming forward with legislation. I do not understand why they do not seem prepared to do so in this case.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, as I made clear, I do not think that it is necessary in this case to carry out an impact assessment. If it was necessary, we would do so. What I am saying is that, after the abolition of the wages board, it is open to the industry to look at its own arrangements. That is why I was grateful for the intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, who said that the NFU could do this, but I do not see why the NFU cannot do it along with Unite and all the other representatives of the industry.

I appreciate that we have now spent an hour and a half discussing these matters. We will no doubt come back to this in due course. My noble friend Lord Maclennan said that there was still much time to discuss these matters. There certainly will be time, because noble Lords opposite wish to make sure that there is. We will discuss these matters further, therefore, but I have not heard anything yet this afternoon that would encourage me to say that there was a case for preserving the agricultural wages board or the agricultural wages committees. I hope, therefore, that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Flooding: Cornwall

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Wednesday 24th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, we look at the lessons learnt from all floods and we have made great progress—as did the previous Government—in getting all agencies, whether local authorities or the voluntary sector, to work together in this field. My noble friend is quite right to refer to the role that helicopters can play, but there is also a large role to be played by the emergency services and the voluntary sector. We greatly praise the RNLI, which I know helped out in west Cumbria, the Red Cross, mountain rescue and many others who help on these occasions.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I extend from this Front Bench the Opposition’s sympathy and support for those who have been affected by the floods in Cornwall, particularly those who had to be evacuated from their homes. Given the concerns expressed by the Environment Agency, the Institution of Civil Engineers and others about funding cuts in the next four years, and given that communities such as those in Cornwall and Cumbria need certainty about which flood protection projects will go ahead, may I ask the Minister what local authorities will receive from the CLG formula grant next year and when his department will publish a definitive list of projects that will receive funding and those that will not?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I believe that the noble Baroness is referring to the help that we will provide to local authorities under the Flood and Water Management Act. I understand that they will receive some £21 million next year, due to phasing in, but thereafter it will be some £36 million. That will help local resilience forums, which are local authority-based, to do all the work that is necessary. We believe that the £8.1 billion that we are providing for capital work on floods is a pretty fair settlement in light of the deficit that we faced when we came into government. It represents only a very small reduction on what was available for the previous four years.

Abattoirs: CCTV

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Tuesday 23rd November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, there are many factors other than compulsory CCTV; it is important to have vets working in all abattoirs and for inspections to take place at an appropriate level. I can assure my noble friend that any decision on whether to prosecute will be taken by independent prosecution lawyers; Ministers have no say in it. In the case that my noble friend refers to, the independent prosecution lawyer took into account previous court decisions which make it clear that evidence which has been unlawfully obtained cannot be used and will be excluded in such cases.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, given the alarming footage referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, and the disturbing report in the Independent last Friday, can we have an assurance that despite the decision made on court proceedings, not only will Defra’s commitment to animal welfare be reinforced rather than weakened, but the cuts imposed by the Department for Communities and Local Government will not impact on the ability of local authorities to carry out their important animal welfare role in monitoring abattoirs and markets?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, of course they will not affect the role of local authorities in that regard. What is important is that Defra, through the Food Standards Agency, will continue to make sure that abattoirs are operating carefully, and we will make sure that appropriate funds are available for that. We are also going to consult on whether we should look to a full costs recovery scheme for the costs of monitoring what goes on in abattoirs, but obviously that is something which has to be discussed with the industry.

Producer Responsibility Obligations (Packaging Waste) (Amendment) Regulations 2010

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Wednesday 17th November 2010 Grand Committee

[Baroness Quin]

In the consultation, did any of the responses raise some of the concerns that have been raised so interestingly today by the noble Lord, Lord Demon?

[Lord Henley]

“Demon”?

[Baroness Quin]

I think I said “Demon”.

[Lord Henley]

It is the noble Lord, Lord Deben. I think the noble Lord, Lord Demon, might be someone rather different. However, that might be for another life of my noble friend.

Legislative and Regulatory Reform (Regulatory Functions) (Amendment) Order 2010

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Wednesday 17th November 2010 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, I am pleased to present this order to the Committee. It will be aware that my honourable friend the Parliamentary Private Secretary for the Natural Environment and Fisheries presented this statutory instrument in another place yesterday. As the Committee knows, better regulation across government and its network of delivery bodies is an important tenet of the coalition Government’s drive for responsible and accountable policy and delivery. This statutory instrument seeks to ensure, formally, that the Marine Management Organisation adheres to a common standard of better regulation by adding it to the existing list of bodies that are subject to the legislative and regulatory format of 2006.

The principles of better regulation stipulate that regulatory activities should be transparent, accountable, proportionate, consistent and targeted. I am sure noble Lords will agree that these principles must underpin the effective working of all our public bodies. The MMO has been following these principles since vesting on 1 April this year. The framework document setting out its remit and corporate governance responsibilities, as agreed by the MMO and its sponsors, states:

“As a government regulator the MMO must have regard to the five principles of good regulation … The MMO will have a risk-based, proportionate, targeted and flexible approach to regulatory inspection and enforcement”.

Although the MMO already complies with this, it is nevertheless important to recognise formally its commitment to these regulatory principles.

The Committee will also know that the MMO is the Government’s key delivery body for marine policy, bringing together management for a number of marine activities including fishing, nature conservation, planning, licensing and enforcement. Delivering functions on behalf of a range of government departments, the MMO is jointly sponsored by the Department for Communities and Local Government, the Department of Energy and Climate Change, the Department for Transport, the Ministry of Defence, and my department, Defra. The length and breadth of responsibilities that rest at the door of the MMO are huge and range from planning and fishing to aggregate extraction and pollution control. Its influence is felt not only locally but at a national and international level.

That is exactly what we—the Government, the Opposition and all parties—envisaged when the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 passed through Parliament. People right across the political spectrum worked together to put this important piece of legislation on to the statute book. For my part, now that we are in government we want to ensure that the legislation is enacted correctly. It is therefore right that the MMO adheres to the common standards of better regulation, and today this statutory instrument recognises its efforts. I beg to move.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for bringing forward the order and for explaining it. From the outset, I can assure him of the support of the Opposition for the instrument. It is good that, as a result of the delay caused by parliamentary business, the MMO could be consulted; obviously, it is right to add it to the list of regulators and that it should have to meet the key principles of good regulation which the Minister has enunciated.

As he said, the MMO was created as part of the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. It is a cross-cutting body that brings together key maritime decision-making powers—planning, regulating and licensing activity—in the marine area. It has the overarching emphasis on and duty to the promotion of sustainable development. Generally, I strongly agree with the Minister that the Act and the establishment of the MMO are good news for the public, particularly with the establishment of marine protected areas, which have been described as doing what national parks did for enhancing awareness of the natural environment and countryside but this time in the marine environment.

The role of the MMO is very important in fulfilling the terms of the Act. Not surprisingly, the Minister will understand that I, as a north-easterner, very strongly welcome the establishment of the MMO in the north-east of England, with its long maritime tradition, its superb Newcastle University marine research department and, indeed, allied facilities such as the very long-established research facility, the Dove Marine Laboratory at Cullercoats.

I am also glad that the Government have a strong commitment to the MMO. Perhaps, via the Minister in this House, I could congratulate the Minister in the other place who spoke to this order yesterday. He admitted that in opposition he had concerns about the MMO, but he said firmly that his reservations had been resolved after visiting the organisation and that he now had nothing but praise for the motivation of the staff and their determination to make it a success. I, for one, very much welcomed the remarks that the Minister in the other place made in Committee yesterday.

Not surprisingly, I have concerns about the effect of budgetary cuts on the organisation. It was recently established, and it was to be a lean, mean and efficient organisation without lavish start-up costs. For that reason, we are concerned that it should not bear the heavy brunt of cuts in current circumstances, and that it should have the resources to carry out its work and responsibilities.

Bovine Tuberculosis

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Tuesday 16th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, that is not the case at all. I have made it clear that we have consulted the Chief Scientific Adviser and he is happy with the consultation. What we are talking about at this stage is a consultation. I also make it clear to the noble Lord that the scientific evidence is clear and suggests that an active badger culling carried out on a sufficient scale—I emphasise the words “sufficient scale”—in a widespread, co-ordinated and efficient way over a sustained period will reduce the incidence of bovine TB in cattle in high-incidence areas.

[Baroness Quin]

May I therefore ask the Minister, in view of his reply, whether there will be a cull or not, because there is confusion within the Government? At precisely the same time as the Minister of State was announcing to farmers that there was going to be a cull, the Secretary of State said that she would await the scientific evidence. Which is it?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, there is no confusion in the Government at all. We have made it quite clear that we are consulting on this issue. When we consult, we consult for those reasons. We do not consult, as the party opposite did, having already made up our minds.

Subsidiarity Assessment: Food Distribution (EUC Report)

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Wednesday 3rd November 2010 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, I join other noble Lords in saying how grateful I am to both the noble Lord, Lord Roper, as chairman of the EU Committee and to the noble Lord, Lord Carter of Coles, as chairman of Sub-Committee D, for this report. I make it quite clear at once, as I think our Explanatory Memorandum made it clear, that the Government share the committee’s concern that the regulation concerned is not consistent with the subsidiarity principle. That means that much of what I say may repeat what other noble Lords have said this afternoon, because there has been general agreement around the Chamber. Still, it is important that it is on the record that these are the views of Her Majesty’s Government.

As the noble Lord, Lord Roper, made clear, the then European Community’s food distribution programme was introduced back in 1987 and its main aim was to help run down the stockpiles of basic commodities that had been purchased into intervention stores under the common agricultural policy. The noble Lord, Lord Roper, went on to stress that it was the stocks of butter, milk powder, beef, sugar, rice, all those mountains and lakes that we remember—I cannot remember whether it covered wine lakes, but it did cover a whole variety of mountains and lakes—that were released to charitable organisations in participating member states annually to distribute to poorer sections of the community.

As has been made clear by a number of noble Lords, we in the United Kingdom last participated in the scheme in 1998—everyone referred just to the mid-1990s, but I can give the precise date. We withdrew both because of the sharp decline in intervention stocks in this country and because of the high administrative overheads, for government and charitable organisations alike, which made participation unattractive. I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, that we still believe that, under the scheme that is being looked at at the moment, there would still be high administrative burdens, which would make it unattractive. I also assure her that we are not aware of any charitable organisations having asked us to participate in this scheme, or, for that matter, to go back into the scheme after the withdrawal by the previous Administration back in 1998.

The main purpose of intervention systems, as my noble friend Lord Caithness and other noble Lords made clear, is to support market prices. However, a side-effect—in practice, it turns out to be the dominant effect—is to encourage overproduction and distract farmers from making market-based production decisions. Successive reforms of the CAP have reduced the role of intervention and, together with improvements in world commodity markets, have resulted in significantly reduced EU intervention stocks. Consequently, the Commission proposes to adapt the scheme.

The main stated purposes of the Commission’s proposals are to align the legislation to the Lisbon treaty and to modernise the scheme. The CAP is now more market-orientated and price support will play less of a role in future, so, as I have said, the accumulation of large intervention stocks is less likely. The proposal therefore provides for CAP funds to be used to purchase goods on the open market and for a wider range of goods to be purchased by participating member states on the basis of nutritional criteria rather than limiting them to the products for which intervention applies. The other major change is the proposed introduction to the scheme of cofinancing by participating member states. Under current proposals, this will be a minimum of 25 per cent of the eligible costs, with lower ranges of cofinancing, such as 10 per cent, applying to more disadvantaged areas of the European Community.

As before, participation in the new scheme—I think the noble Lord, Lord Roper, made this clear—will remain voluntary, so that, even if it goes ahead, the United Kingdom will not be obliged to participate. Providing effective help to disadvantaged people is clearly an important objective, but, as the Explanatory Memorandum explains, we remain unconvinced of the merits or the appropriateness of the proposal. In particular, we believe that the expansion of the scheme to procuring goods on the open market will mean that the new scheme is essentially a social measure—that is an assurance I can give to my noble friend Lord Caithness—which, by its design, would make it a matter for member states to decide rather than for the EU itself.

In accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, a longstanding element of European treaties that is currently enshrined in Article 5 of the treaty on the European Union, the Government consider that the EU should act collectively only where there are clear additional benefits, or EU added value, compared with action by member states either individually or in co-operation.

We consider that social matters are a matter for individual member states, and that measures to assist the neediest members of society are more properly and efficiently delivered through domestic social programmes that take account of the prevailing situation and available funding in individual countries. The noble Lord, Lord Carter of Coles, for example, mentioned a scheme, Healthy Start, which is run by the Department of Health. I assure him that that scheme is still there; it is under review by the department and subject to a consultation about various changes in it.

I would like to mention national charitable organisations, such as FairShare. I visited one example of its outlets in the north-east, not far from the former constituency of the noble Baroness, Lady Quin. Many noble Lords will know of the valuable work that bodies such as FairShare can do in distributing food to the less advantaged. To return to the north-east, I was grateful for what the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, said about the north-east food action programme. It is those kinds of measures—national from the Government, from local government and from charities—that we believe we should be looking to work. I commend those bodies to those who do not know about the sort of work that they do.

The proposal itself was discussed in the Agriculture and Fisheries Council on 27 September. That was followed, as I understand it, by technical consideration by officials. A number of policy and technical issues have been identified. At present—I give this assurance to my noble friend Lord Caithness—there is no qualified majority in favour of it. There might be a blocking minority against, but certainly I assure him that no member state at the moment actually supports the scheme; some oppose it for one reason, some for another. Also, as I understand it, the European Parliament has not yet given its opinion on the proposal.

The noble Baroness, Lady Quin, asked about the timescale. I assure her that we still have quite a long way to go before we get to any final decision, what with the European Parliament having to consider it and some sort of qualified majority having to be found on the Council, which does not seem likely.

In addition to subsidiarity, there are two main concerns among those member states. First there is the legal base.

[Baroness Quin]

I thought that the proposal reflected some of the amendments that had been passed in the European Parliament, so I am somewhat puzzled that the Minister says that the European Parliament has not considered it.

[Lord Henley]

As I understand it, the European Parliament has not yet considered the stage that we are currently at. It might be that it considered earlier examples of it. At the moment we are at the stage where it has been through the Agriculture and Fisheries Council, which talked in September about co-financing at the 25 per cent or 10 per cent level, but that has not yet gone on to the European Parliament. If I am wrong, I will write to the noble Baroness to correct it. My point is that we still have quite a way to go before any of this gets through, which is why it is important that the views of this House and another place—and those of 26 other parliaments and all the Houses in them, should they wish, although we understand that only Sweden is likely to do this at the moment—should come forward so that we can reach various red lights, green lights or whatever, as appropriate.

I return to the concerns of the member states. First, I was talking about the legal basis. The new proposal is made under Articles 42 and 43(2) of the treaty on the functioning of the EU. This is similar to the existing scheme. These articles would be appropriate if the predominant purpose of the scheme was the supply of food from intervention. However, given the expected focus of the revised scheme on the purchase of goods on the open market, it is very difficult to argue that its predominant purpose is in line with the use of these articles as the legal base. A number of member states share our concern about that.

Secondly, the concept of cofinancing, which I referred to earlier, is strongly opposed by a number of currently participating member states that believe that the scheme, quite naturally, should be wholly community-financed. The Government believe that, were the revised scheme to go ahead, cofinancing would be very important to ensure that each participating member state reaches an informed judgment on how best to support its deprived communities, and because it would likely improve the governance of the scheme.

In conclusion, I emphasise that Her Majesty’s Government have not taken part in the existing voluntary scheme for many years and have no intention of taking part in the revised scheme if it were adopted. Given that there is presently no qualified majority on paper in the Council, there seems little immediate prospect of the proposal—at least in its current form—progressing that far. The effect would be that the existing scheme would continue to operate. I understand that there is a challenge before the European Court of Justice on whether the legal base for the operation of the 2009 programme is appropriate. That has yet to be heard. The point remains that it is not an activity that is best undertaken at EU level or, in our view, an appropriate use of common agricultural policy funds. Therefore, I stress that I welcome the committee’s report and support the Motion on the reasoned opinion.

Food: Labelling

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Monday 1st November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My noble friend always has the best suggestions. I did not say that we should increase the number of words on packages but, rather, that we should make sure that the wording on any package is user-friendly and can be accessed by as many people as possible. That is why we believe that voluntary, rather than compulsory, agreements are often the better way of addressing this issue.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, given that labelling is the subject of European as well as national decision-making, and given that the Government, like the Opposition, have said that they are in favour of clear labelling and a colour-coded traffic-light system, can the Minister tell me why Conservative MEPs voted not only against such a traffic-light system for Europe but against continuing such a system here in the UK? Should not the Government be consistent in pursuing policies in the interests of Britain and our consumers?

[Lord Henley]

The noble Baroness will be aware that, although I was formerly a Chief Whip in this House, I have no responsibility for Conservative MEPs on the other side of the channel. However, we are continuing to negotiate on the EU food information regulations and will ensure that they are as user-friendly as possible. We will also try to ensure, for example, that it is made quite clear where meat comes from. Therefore, even if, for example, the labelling says that bacon is British when the meat itself comes from Denmark, it will also say that the primary product, the pork, comes from another country—that is, Denmark.

Bovine Tuberculosis

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Thursday 22nd July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, my noble friend, I think, refers to the gamma interferon blood test, which is used alongside the tuberculin skin test in certain prescribed circumstances to improve the sensitivity of the testing regime and identify more affected animals more quickly. I shall certainly look at whether it is possible to use that test solely, but, as I said earlier, for the moment, we believe that the comparative tests that we are using are possibly the best.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, will the Minister join me in welcoming the sharp, 25 per cent decline in bovine TB which is recorded in today’s Farmers Guardian, for example. Given that Defra has shelved its own vaccination project, will the Minister assure us that the department will continue strongly to support vaccination and assist those farmers who wish to use it?

Energy: Large Combustion Plant Directive

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Tuesday 20th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I can confirm exactly what my noble friend said: by the directive, we will be reducing by quite large amounts the sulphur dioxide, the nitrogen oxides and the dust emissions which can be harmful to both human health and the environment. That can only be a good thing. As I said in answer to the first supplementary question, we also hope to have other capacity on stream to deal with the plants that are closing.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, the party of the noble Lord who asked the Question is of course opposed to binding EU targets on renewables, biofuels and other EU environmental initiatives, but is it not the case that, when emissions affect a number of countries simultaneously, European and international action is both welcome and indispensable? Is it not also the case that, given the recent vote in the European Parliament, while stricter emissions standards are favoured, the situation of individual member states will be more greatly taken into account in future?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I can agree on that. Where emissions from one country affect other countries and the whole world, that should be dealt with internationally. That is why it is quite right that the EU should deal with them, especially those that are damaging to human health, which is the case with those dealt with by the large combustion plant directive. The noble Baroness then referred to the recent vote by the European Parliament on the industrial emissions directive. Again, we will take that forward, and it will replace the large combustion plant directive in 2016. That will further tighten the requirements, but those are matters that we have agreed, and we have introduced certain flexibilities that will make life easier for a lot of those plants until the end of 2023.

Fishing Boats (Electronic Transmission of Fishing Activities Data) (England) Scheme 2010

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Monday 19th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, logbook and landing declaration information form an essential element of the means by which we monitor fishing activity data. Under Community law, fishing vessels with an overall length of more than 10 metres are required to keep a logbook to record estimates of the catch on board vessels. They are also required to submit landing declarations containing accurate figures on the quantities of fish landed.

Current paper-based logbooks and landing declarations are both cumbersome and time-consuming for fishermen to complete. The input of the data from these paper records on to computerised databases is also resource-intensive for fisheries administrations. In November 2006, European Fisheries Ministers therefore agreed that vessels with an overall length of more than 15 metres should in future submit their logbook and landing declarations electronically.

This new technology will significantly improve the real-time monitoring of fishing activity, as logbook information will be transmitted back to shore on a daily basis, rather than having to wait for the vessel to complete its trip, as at present. It will also make it harder to misrecord catches and so contribute positively towards improving compliance. The benefits of this new technology are therefore plain for all to see. However, ultimately, electronic logbooks are essentially a control tool. In the past when similar control tools, such as vessel monitoring systems, have been introduced, these have been government funded. The Government are therefore pleased to be able to offer financial assistance to fishermen in the purchase of the necessary software. Similar assistance is being provided by other fisheries administrations in the United Kingdom and in other member states.

We have aimed to ensure best value for money by adopting a type of approval process under which any software supplier can submit its product for approval, thereby offering fishermen a choice of software to meet their own needs and introducing competition between suppliers. Grant aid will be made available only for approved software systems.

I nevertheless recognise that some fishermen may wish to purchase sophisticated software that contains functions beyond those necessary to comply with our EU obligations. I believe that it is therefore reasonable to place a limit on the level of financial assistance that we will provide. The Government thus intend to limit the amount of funding that will be available to English fishing vessels to £2,000 per vessel. On this basis, the overall cost of this funding scheme is not expected to exceed £560,000 for the 280 or so English vessels over 15 metres in length. Moneys for the scheme will be found from existing budgets, with some £530,000 of this recoverable from Community funds under the EU aid regime, which provides co-financing for member states’ expenditure on statutory control measures.

The House may wonder why it has taken so long to put the funding scheme in place, given that the original date for vessels of more than 24 metres to have electronic logbooks was 1 January 2010. Noble Lords will not be surprised to hear that, as with many other IT projects, adopting this new technology has turned out to be somewhat more complicated than originally envisaged. As a result, all member states have been working hard to get their systems up and running. We now have two approved software systems, with more expected shortly. It is, therefore, now important that the funding scheme is put in place as soon as possible.

Finally, the House may be aware that European Fisheries Ministers have agreed to extend the requirement for electronic logbooks and landing declarations to vessels of more than 12 metres from 1 January 2012. A decision on the extent of any funding for 12-metre to 15-metre vessels will be taken nearer the time in the light of experience with vessels of more than 15 metres. I beg to move.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, the Opposition welcome the opportunity to debate this statutory instrument and, indeed, welcome the measure itself, not least because the work on its principles was undertaken by the previous Government after meetings and consultations with the fishing industry. We feel that the benefits of this legislation outweigh any disadvantages.

Paragraph 7.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum attached to the instrument sums up the benefits when it describes the purpose of the scheme, using words similar to those used by the Minister, which is to ensure,

“more timely and accurate information on fishing vessel activity and enable Fishing Administrations to better manage the uptake of quotas and restrictions on fishing activities”.

That,

“in turn will contribute positively to the conservation and sustainable exploitation of fish stocks”.

There are other positive aspects to the measure, such as the reduction of the administrative burden and consequent considerable time savings, which again are detailed in the Explanatory Memorandum and the useful impact assessment.

However, while generally supporting the measure, I none the less want to put some questions to the Minister, particularly in the light of what he described, rightly, as the time pressures on us and other European states in complying with these regulations, as well as some of the difficulties connected with IT development with which we are familiar. The Minister said that two suppliers have now been identified, which means that there are two suppliers on the list that the Government have to draw up. How happy is he about the situation, given that obviously the greater the choice, the more likely it is that costs will be more competitive, particularly for the fishing industry? Can he assure us that all possible methods have been used to try to communicate with the industry and those affected by the scheme as much information as they need, so that, even with a limited choice, they will be able to make informed decisions?

In this age of devolution, the people affected will want to be assured that there is no discriminatory treatment for fishing vessels in the different UK administrations. I wonder whether the Minister can assure us of that in his reply. Certainly, the Explanatory Memorandum says that the aim is to ensure that,

“small English businesses are not placed at a competitive disadvantage compared with their UK and EU counterparts”.

Any detail on that would be welcome. Furthermore, paragraph 9(2) of the scheme stipulates that the Secretary of State must,

“reject an application if of the opinion that the port of administration of the fishing boat has been changed to England for the primary purpose of ensuring that the fishing boat is an eligible English fishing boat for the purposes of the Scheme”.

Does the Minister think that there is a risk of shopping around in that way, or is that simply an additional safeguard in the legislation?

Obviously, we are all committed to the sustainable exploitation of fish stocks. I wonder therefore whether in response the Minister could say a few words about how the scheme fits in with, and perhaps complements, other initiatives on which it would be good to be updated, such as the use of onboard catch monitoring.

We know that the Marine Management Organisation will be administering the scheme and that it is expected that that can be done within existing resources. The Opposition are committed to the work of the MMO and we would be grateful for any information that the Minister can give today about the future budget of that organisation. We would like to feel assured that it will be able to continue its valuable work, which affects all those involved in the fishing industry and the overall health of our marine environment. My right honourable and honourable friends in another place, Hilary Benn and Huw Irranca-Davies, are concerned about this.

A number of other points could be raised, but, given that the scheme will be reviewed and its effect considered over the next three years, perhaps I may write to the Minister about them as part of the ongoing review process. That would be helpful. In conclusion, I reiterate our general support for the scheme and its provisions.

Agriculture: Farming

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Wednesday 14th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I had a suspicion that the noble Lord or his noble friend might raise that subject. It might be that we would want to seek to renegotiate a certain number of regulations that come from Europe. If that is the case, we will try to do so. I accept that there are no quick fixes, but we are more likely to be successful if we go to Brussels with a positive attitude rather than a negative one.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, given the concern expressed yesterday in this House, will the Minister rule out transferring to Defra any regulatory role of the Food Standards Agency? Does he agree with me that the independence of the agency from Ministers and from the food and farming industries was strongly supported by his party and, indeed, was very strongly supported by the Liberal Democrats when the FSA was introduced under the previous Government?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, the noble Baroness should not necessarily believe everything that she reads in the papers, tempting though that might be. All I can say to her at the moment is that no decision has been taken on the Food Standards Agency and that all arm’s-length bodies in all departments will be subject to review.

Rural Payments Agency

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Wednesday 7th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I can confirm that we will look at all possible options.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, while I wish the Government well in taking forward the review’s recommendations in due course, given that rural payments are so important to both the economy and the environment of our rural areas, will the Government think again about their decision to abolish the Commission for Rural Communities in order to safeguard an independent rural voice in these and other important rural issues?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I think the noble Baroness will accept that that question is somewhat wide of that on the Order Paper, but no doubt I will address it in due course. Policy on this matter will still be retained by Defra, which will continue to look after rural interests and rural affairs.

Agriculture: Farm Animal Disease

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Tuesday 6th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I would not want to make any comment about how we will deal with bovine TB, but my noble friend is right to stress how much it costs us each year. The figure that I have is in the order of £80 million and rising. We will, again, look at all evidence. We want all decisions to be made on an evidence-based model. We will make appropriate responses in due course.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, in his reply to the noble Baroness, the Minister seemed to herald a possible change in government policy. Before the election the current Minister of State ruled out cost-sharing, but the Minister wisely prefers to wait until the outcome of the report—which the previous Government set in place—and its recommendations. Is the Minister therefore saying that a change in policy on this matter, which would be welcome, is possible?

Japanese Knotweed

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Thursday 24th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, the psyllid known as Aphalara whatever it was, is a very small bug, of the order of two to three millimetres long. It is difficult to see with the naked eye, and a magnifying glass may be used better to see it. I have some pictures, which I could show to my noble friend after this Question if she wants to see whether she can identify that bug.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I, too, pay tribute to the noble Baroness for her persistence in raising the issue. Is it not potentially a good news story that after so long, given the problems and great expense which this has caused to people in both urban areas and the countryside, that some of the cost incurred by this plant may be limited in future? I know that the Labour Government had also commissioned research into another method of control of Japanese knotweed, a leaf fungus, which also did not appear to attack other plants. Can the Minister confirm that that research is continuing and what progress is being made?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is quite right to say that it is a good news story. That is why I was trying to offer some praise to the party opposite for the work done, particularly by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. We will continue our research on the fungus that the noble Baroness mentioned and, in due course, I hope that I will be able to tell her how that is getting on. I have nothing further to add to what I have said today, but we will continue with both avenues as appropriate.

Dangerous Dogs Act 1991

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Monday 21st June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am not aware that any have disappeared from kennels while waiting for the court’s decision. If my noble friend has any evidence of that, we would be grateful if he would pass it on to us. The Dangerous Dogs Act deals not only with specific breeds but, under Section 3, allows action against a dog of any type or breed if it is deemed to be behaving dangerously.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, following my noble friend’s point about timing, can the Minister tell us when the Government will respond to the consultation and whether they will publish the results?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, as regards timing, I do not think that I can help the noble Baroness much more than by saying that we will do that as soon as is possible—we have all said that before—but we will certainly publish the results of our consultation when we make the appropriate decisions about how we should respond to it.

Foxes

Debate between Baroness Quin and Lord Henley

Thursday 17th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his support for our localist agenda, which we believe is very important. He is correct to put these matters in perspective, although, obviously, if you have had two children bitten by a fox, you tend to take the matter seriously.

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate the Minister on his appointment and I wish him well with his new responsibilities. The Opposition recognise that what happened was a terrible event for the family concerned and we send our good wishes to the children for a full and speedy recovery. As the Minister is, according to the Defra website, responsible for relations with local government, is he planning to have any contact with the local authorities affected by this issue? At the moment, there appears to be no information on the Defra website about this, so can he ensure that advice, information and expertise from within his department will be available to those who want it?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her kind words and I welcome her to her new role on the Front Bench. We shall talk to local authorities, but I repeat that we believe that these matters are best left to them, rather than being dealt with by direction from the centre. Advice on how to deal with foxes is available from Natural England. I can also assure her that we have commissioned research from the Food and Environment Research Agency into what I gather is referred to as immunocontraception. Currently, that is being trialled on wild boars, but it could have relevance for the control of other mammals.