Energy Bill [HL]

Baroness Pitkeathley Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 7th September 2022 Lords Chamber

Clause 82: Financing of costs of decommissioning etc

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

We come to Amendment 67. Lord Callanan?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Moved formally.

Carers: Unpaid Leave

Baroness Pitkeathley Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2022 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Pitkeathley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they intend to introduce a right to one week’s unpaid leave for those with caring responsibilities.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, we recognise the important contribution of carers across the country who give their time to look after others. The Government are determined to do all they can to support those balancing work and caring. Legislation to deliver our commitment to introduce one week of unpaid leave for unpaid carers will be brought forward when parliamentary time allows.

[Baroness Pitkeathley (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his response, but he will not be surprised to know that I am somewhat disappointed. It is now almost three years since the Conservative Party manifesto pledged to give carers five days’ unpaid leave per year—a modest enough request, I think your Lordships will agree. It was seen as a very important component of helping carers deliver social care while staying in paid work. It is very much supported by employers, who see it as helping their bottom line because it helps with recruitment and retention, and 90% of the public think it is a good idea. Here is a policy that costs nothing, supports social care and is hugely popular. Why are the Government delaying?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Well, I said that we are committed to this, and we will of course act when parliamentary time allows. To be fair, if employers are supportive, they can do it anyway; they do not need legislation. I give the noble Baroness an assurance that we will work with parliamentarians to see whether there is an alternative vehicle that could deliver this legislation.

Free Trade Agreement Negotiations: Australia

Baroness Pitkeathley Excerpts

Thursday 24th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and Department for International Trade (Lord Grimstone of Boscobel) (Con)]

My Lords, it is a constant disappointment to me that Opposition Front Benchers find it difficult ever to say any nice things about trade agreements. Of course, the whole purpose of our striking them is to benefit British businesses and consumers. This deal with Australia eliminates tariffs on all UK goods, making it cheaper to sell products like Scottish whisky and cars to Australia, and supporting industries that employ 3.5 million people in the UK. It would be nice to hear some recognition of such positive impacts when we debate these agreements.

For our consumers, this means lower prices and better choice, and that includes iconic favourites such as Aussie wine, which I would not be surprised at all to learn that the two Front-Bench spokesmen enjoy from time to time. I recognise that the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, has great expertise in farming matters, but I should make it clear that this deal will not undercut UK farmers unfairly or compromise our high standards. Indeed, we believe that it will open up opportunities in fast-growing markets such as CPTPP countries. It would be nice to hear some recognition of the fact that our farmers, who are among the best in the world, will be able to take advantage of these agreements.

I say categorically that, throughout the negotiations, we have listened closely to the concerns of farmers and other stakeholders, which is why we have agreed 15 years of capped tariff-free imports from Australia. This means that Australian farmers will only have the same access as EU farmers 15 years after the agreement comes into force.

Of course, so far, this agreement is only at the “in principle” stage, and the House will have an opportunity to scrutinise it fully. Some of the questions asked by noble Lords will be more easily dealt with once we have commenced that formal scrutiny. Let me explain for a moment what I mean by that. The agreement in principle signifies only that the main elements of the deal have been negotiated; both countries will now work together to continue to translate the agreement into legal text. Parliament will have full opportunity to scrutinise this agreement: the FTA treaty will be presented to it after signature, alongside an independently scrutinised impact assessment. I know how carefully the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, always reads those, and I am sure that he will find answers to his questions when that impact assessment is published.

Of course, the House will then have the benefit, for the first time, of advice from the Trade and Agriculture Commission, which we have debated many times in this House. Some of the really important points made by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, will no doubt be dealt with in that report. Once the Agriculture Act’s Section 42 report and the TAC’s advice have been laid in Parliament, there will then be a further chance to scrutinise these matters, so that will be the time to come back to some of these detailed points.

Turning to some of the specific points that have been raised, the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked where we are with the very good report from the Trade and Agriculture Commission. It is still being carefully analysed, and I am sure the Secretary of State will make her views on it known to Parliament in due course.

I would like to deal specifically with the accusation the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, made about my misleading the House. I categorically refute that suggestion, and I will explain why I am so categoric about that. This agreement allows lawyers from both sides to practise not domestic law, either in the UK or Australia, but foreign or international law in certain limited areas such as giving advice, arbitration or conciliation. These are not regulated matters, so it will be possible for an Australian lawyer to open an office in Edinburgh and put a sign on the door saying that he is an Australian lawyer, but from that office he will be able to offer advice on foreign and international law, on arbitration in relation to those matters, and to comment on Australian law. Having given that explanation, I would be grateful if the noble Lord felt able to withdraw his very serious allegation that I misled the House from this Dispatch Box.

I believe that this is a positive agreement. It is the first that we have negotiated from scratch since leaving the European Union, and it shows what we are capable of as a sovereign trading area. I believe that it will lead to a whole succession of broader and even better agreements going forward.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

My Lords, we now come to the 20 minutes allocated for Back-Bench questions. I ask that questions and answers be brief so that I can call the maximum number of speakers.

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[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that. I indeed looked into the question of food miles before this debate. I was pleased and slightly surprised to find that Australian farming methods are less carbon-intensive than ours in certain instances. As that is the case—it is, of course, subject to further analysis—it will more than compensate for the food miles point that my noble friend raises. As I said, there will be full time for this agreement to be scrutinised by our new Trade and Agriculture Commission.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

My Lords, with apologies to the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, we have reached the time limit of 20 minutes. We now move to our next business.

10-point Plan: Six Months On

Baroness Pitkeathley Excerpts

Wednesday 19th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for his comments. Obviously, I do not agree with many of them, but let me go through the points he raised in turn.

He talked about the fifth and sixth carbon budgets. The noble Lord needs to see this in the context of the UK’s record on decarbonisation. As he said, we have recently, on 21 April, laid the legislation to set the sixth carbon budget, covering 2033-2037. That will require a 78% reduction in emissions compared to 1990. In addition to the carbon budgets, as he is well aware, we have set the highly ambitious nationally determined contribution, through the UN process, to reduce emissions in 2030 by at least 68% compared to 1990 levels. This is the highest reduction target made by any advanced economy. We have shown through our actions that cutting emissions and growing the economy can go hand in hand. We achieved record clean growth between 1990 and 2019. Our economy has grown by 78%, and at the same time, we have managed to reduce emissions by 44%. That is a better record than any other G7 nation. I would have hoped that the noble Lord might at least have given us some credit for delivering that.

The noble Lord mentioned the green homes grant. Yes, we will not hide from the fact that it did run into some difficulties in terms of delivery, but we have made excellent progress across much of the investment. We have invested substantial sums in social housing, schools and hospitals, as well as in homes through the green homes grant, in particular supporting local authorities through the local authority delivery scheme. As he will be aware, the Chancellor also announced additional funding of £300 million going into the local authority delivery scheme, and we are working in partnership with many local authorities. I have met with many of them, and they are very grateful for this funding.

He asked about the Treasury net zero review. We have announced that the net zero report will be published this spring. It was delayed from autumn last year because of the pandemic. In the meantime—in order to keep his reading up to speed—Her Majesty’s Treasury published an interim report this autumn. This sets out our approach to the review and analysis which will form the final report. The initial timing of the review was delayed due to the Covid crisis. Given these circumstances, we took the decision to move publication to 2021, so if he will have a little bit more patience, the review will be there for him to read shortly. He also mentioned our investment in transport decarbonisation. Let me give him some of the figures. We have provided £1.3 billion to accelerate the rollout of charge points for electric vehicles, we have provided £582 million in plug-in vehicles grants, we have spent nearly £500 million on the automotive transformation fund and we spent considerable sums on improving public transport and government investment in low-carbon buses and trains. In March, we published England’s long-term national bus strategy, setting out a bold vision for bus services across the country.

He also asked about the transport decarbonisation plan. We have announced that the UK is embarking on a comprehensive transport plan—a bold and ambitious programme of co-ordinated action needed to meet the UK’s transport greenhouse gas emissions targets through to 2050, and that ensures that the transport sector plays its part. I think I have responded to most of his points.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

My Lords, we now come to the 20 minutes allocated to Back-Bench questions. I ask that questions and answers be brief so that I can call the maximum number of speakers.

Trade Bill

Baroness Pitkeathley Excerpts

Report stage & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 15th December 2020 Lords Chamber

Amendment 14 withdrawn.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 15. I remind noble Lords that Members other than the mover and the Minister may speak only once, and that short questions of elucidation are discouraged. Anyone wishing to press this, or anything else in this group to a Division, must make that clear in the debate.

Amendment 15

Moved by

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[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD) [V]]

I wish to speak briefly in support of these amendments. It is bad enough that the UK has cut its aid budget by potentially £30 billion over this Parliament without legitimate or honest reasons, but just as the Government are giving a boost to the better-off to eat out at home, and possibly accelerating the spread of Covid-19 in the process—while being reluctant to extend the provision of free school meals to poorer children—so they have prioritised boosting defence spending by 0.2% of GNI and cutting aid to the poorest people in the world by precisely 0.2% of GNI.

These amendments rightly probe the Government’s real intentions on aid and seeking to hold to the high standards of the past 20 years. I think that many of us are not as sanguine as the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, about the intentions of the Government. They are unclear and on the basis of betrayed promises made over a matter of weeks, so we need some answers. I am pleased to follow the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, who has been consistent in his campaign to ensure that sustainable development will deliver for the poor and that the Government should explain their policy clearly.

Put simply, UK development assistance has been untied and we have all agreed to that. Moreover, it has been poverty-focused. The former Prime Minister, David Cameron, co-chaired the UN’s high-level panel on the sustainable development goals. It set the objective of ending absolute poverty and leaving no one behind. The UK’s contribution to achieving that will now be substantially reduced. These amendments seek to ensure that UK aid will still prioritise poverty reduction and not be used as a lever to extract concessions from poorer developing countries for the UK’s mercantile or political advantage.

With a few exceptions, such as delivering emergency aid into conflict zones, the UK’s engagement in developing countries is with the consent of the Governments of those countries. This gives scope for dialogue about good governance and agreement to work together to build capacity to manage programmes. It allows for honest discussion about problems of corruption, so it is not as if there is no engagement. It is not simply spending on a poverty programme without any government-to-government contact. That is what constitutes soft power. Contrary to what critics assert, aid programmes have contributed to the substantial reduction in poverty over recent decades. The challenge now is to sustain that progress in a post-pandemic world. I cannot think of a worse time for what has become one of the world’s leading aid countries to give such a public declaration of its intention not to be the lead contributor to solving that problem.

We all know that prior to the International Development Act, as has been quoted by other speakers in this debate, our aid budget was misused to secure contracts for British companies, not always on the best terms or for the best purpose of benefiting the recipient countries. We surely do not want to return to those bad old days. The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, says that the Government have no intention of doing so, but the Government had no intention of cutting aid or of rolling DfID into the Foreign Office. Frankly, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Lansley: we cannot trust any of this Government’s assurances on aid.

Whatever kind of Brexit emerges from these tedious negotiations, this Brexit Government will want to parade a succession of trade deals. The more important and powerful the partner with which we are negotiating, the harder it will be to secure agreement and the more likely it is that the UK will make concessions that are greater than those made when we benefited from the negotiating strength of the European Union. In that situation, the temptation to pressurise economically weaker and poorer countries could intensify accordingly.

The term “aid for trade” is open to a range of interpretations. In a proper development context, it should mean helping a country achieve standards that enable it to compete successfully in export markets. It should not mean securing concessions or trade-offs in exchange for details of access to the UK market, such as, “We will buy your flowers if you support us with your vote on the Security Council or the General Assembly, or if you buy our expensive digital equipment or services.” If it were as blatant as that, it would contravene the DAC rules and the Government would struggle to achieve even 0.5%.

Alternatives could be offering aid in return for mining concessions or arms sales. If our aid is being cut, it is more important than ever that it goes unconditionally to help alleviate poverty and promote sustainable livelihoods, and enables countries to meet the challenges of pro-poor development: to end poverty and leave no one behind. To date, the UK has been leading the way on untying aid. It will be a sad confirmation of a new self-serving foreign policy if the next few years see a dramatic reduction in not only the amount of aid that we deliver but the quality and direction of the aid that we give.

The question is simple: is the overriding purpose and impact of the UK’s official development assistance directed at poverty reduction and sustainability, or is it directly to further the foreign policy interests of a country reverting to British exceptionalism?

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, is not speaking, so we move now to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, this has been a good debate at a more detailed level than we were perhaps expecting at this stage of our considerations on the Bill. It is none the less important for that.

I took Amendment 16, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, to be a probing amendment in a sense. It is trying to tease out the different strands of activity among the issues arising from sustainable development goals about trade, particularly with disadvantaged countries, and government policy in relation to it. That is linked to the reduction in funds available for future development work in this area.

We are going to return to this on many areas over the years, I suspect; the impact that this cut will have on our available resources to support and ensure development in countries that need it will be a feature of our debates in future. However, it is not capable of being sorted at this stage by a single amendment. What we need is a clear statement from the Government on their policy, and I hope that the Minister will be able to give that.

The other amendment in this group follows on, as has been explained, from quite a good discussion in Committee and a subsequent meeting organised by the Minister, of which I had a readout, because I was not able to attend myself. It raises interesting issues, and the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, may be right that there is no issue here, because the Government are not going to do what they might be seen to be accused of in the terms of the amendment. On the other hand, there are doubts about how the whole EU structure for resolving how aid is given, and in what form it is given—in direct support and in ensuring that the impact of any support does not affect the ability of those countries involved to be able to trade their way out of their own difficulties—will be resolved. It needs to be resolved properly before we can say that we have a proper trade policy. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

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Consideration on Report adjourned.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

My Lords, the next business on the Order Paper is the repeat of a Statement on Covid-19.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, therefore, with the leave the House, I beg to move that the repeat of the Statement on Covid-19 be postponed until after consideration of the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill.

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Baroness Pitkeathley Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 15th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

My Lords, these proceedings will follow guidance issued by the Procedure and Privileges Committee. Any Member of the Chamber may speak, subject to the usual seating arrangements and capacity of the Chamber. Anyone intending to do so should email the clerk or indicate when asked. Members not intending to speak should make room for Members who do. All speakers will be called by the chair. Short questions of elucidation after the Minister’s response are permitted but discouraged. A Member wishing to ask such a question, including Members in the Chamber, must email the clerk.

When putting the Question, I will collect the voices in the Chamber only. Since there is no counterproposition, the Minister’s Motion may not be opposed. We will now begin.

Motion A

Moved by

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Baroness Pitkeathley Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 28th October 2020 Lords Chamber

Amendment 14 withdrawn.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 15. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this amendment or anything else in this group to a Division should make that clear in the debate. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, is having difficulties connecting with us, so I call the noble Lord, Lord German.

Amendment 15

Moved by

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[Lord Hain (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, as so often, my noble friend Lord Wigley has spoken for the wide consensus on this question in Wales. I will speak specifically in support of Amendments 74, 75 and 99, which seek to ensure that the Henry VIII powers of the Secretary of State to amend the Bill’s provisions relating to market access on mutual recognition, non-discrimination and the “legitimate aim” of regulatory requirements are referred to the devolved Administrations for their consultation and consent. I do so following a series of excellent opening speeches, notably by the noble Lord, Lord German, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope.

The Bill has been justified on the basis that it is intended to support the UK internal market for goods and services once EU rules no longer apply after the transition period ends on 31 December. These rules, derived from EU law, place constraints on the ability of government institutions within the UK to impose constraints on the free movement of goods, as well as people, and significantly reduce the scope for measures that would restrict intra-UK trade. One reason that the UK Government wish to constrain the autonomy of the devolved Administrations in this area is that countries with which the UK is trying to negotiate trade deals may wish to clarify that they have access to the whole UK market, or Great Britain market if the Northern Ireland protocol survives, as it must do.

A White Paper published by the Government in July 2020 claimed that the Bill would provide “frictionless trade”, “fair competition” and protection for businesses and consumers within the UK. To achieve these aims, two market access principles were identified, namely mutual recognition and non-discrimination, which would constrain the ability of all relevant actors within the UK, be they regulators, local authorities or devolved Administrations, to impose new regulations on goods and services. These limit the ability of devolved Governments to regulate economic activity far more than did their EU predecessors. So much for taking back control. Obviously, that does not apply to devolved legislatures, which will lose control under the Bill—to Whitehall.

The UK internal market was initially seen as one strand of work, begun in October 2017 by the four Governments within the UK, to establish a common approach in key policy areas of returned EU rule, referred to as common frameworks, about which I spoke in the last Session. However, it is generally agreed that, by removing the internal market from these discussions and pushing ahead without the agreement of the devolved Authorities, the common framework approach is being completely undermined by the UK Government.

In response to the White Paper, the Welsh Government insisted that any new system must have independent oversight and dispute resolution, and that common rules must be agreed by all four Governments. When the Bill was published, Jeremy Miles, the Welsh Government Counsel General, called it an “attack on democracy”, and the Scottish Constitution Minister pointed out that the concept of mutual recognition could mean that Scotland, for example, would be forced to accept lower food standards—an area that is currently devolved—against its express wishes.

The mutual recognition provisions would, therefore, effectively prevent one part of the UK unilaterally imposing and enforcing requirements, for example for the presentation or characteristics of goods, which are covered by this principle, which also applies to services. There are exceptions under the Northern Ireland protocol. “Manner of sale” requirements, on the other hand, for example governing to whom products may be sold or their price, would not be covered by mutual recognition but by the non-discrimination provisions of the Bill. The exclusion of price from the mutual recognition principle was driven, in part, by arguments in the other place about what the Bill might mean for Scotland’s minimum alcohol pricing regime—subsequently adopted in Wales, more or less—in response to the public health challenge from excessive alcohol consumption.

Schedule 2 contains lists of services that are excluded from the principles of mutual recognition and non-discrimination, such as healthcare, transport and water supply, as well as some privately provided services. Amendments 74 and 75 require the Secretary of State to consult and/or seek the consent of the devolved Administrations before making changes to Schedule 2.

If there is wariness about enabling any one of the devolved nations to exercise a veto—for example, the Scottish nationalists simply refusing to consent to something which would benefit the rest of the UK —leading to deadlock, why, as I have suggested several times in recent debates in your Lordships’ House, do the Government not adopt the Welsh Government’s proposal for a Council of Ministers-type model with a form of qualified majority voting, in place of the current Joint Ministerial Committee, which has been dysfunctional and, frankly, worse than useless? I specifically ask the Minister to respond to this suggestion of the Welsh Government to have a Council of Ministers-type model with qualified majority voting, which could overcome many of the issues involved. This model would require the UK Government, since it represents England with its disproportionately large population and share of GDP, to secure the agreement of at least one devolved Administration before overriding any devolved Administration that wanted to exercise a veto.

The Bill prohibits both direct and indirect discrimination. The latter is permitted if it can reasonably be considered a “legitimate aim”, as defined in the Bill. However, with the Bill as it stands, the Secretary of State can redefine that term by regulations, subject only to an affirmative resolution procedure. Amendment 99 rightly seeks to ensure that there is consultation and consent from the devolved Administrations before doing so. I cannot for the life of me understand why the Government or the Minister, for that matter, would object to that.

New functions will be bestowed on the Competition and Markets Authority—the CMA—to monitor and report on the impact of specific regulations that are considered to potentially have a detrimental effect on the internal market. The Bill also proposes to establish an office for the internal market within the CMA to oversee the application of these principles and the functioning of the internal market. Expert analysis has shown that, whereas EU law had a symmetrical effect upon the UK Parliament and devolved legislatures, the Bill will have an inherently asymmetrical effect as it will become a protected enactment, which the devolved legislatures will be powerless to repeal or modify.

The Bill will also narrow the territorial scope of devolved legislation. Regulations relating to goods, passed by the Senedd, for example, will apply only to goods produced in Wales or imported directly into Wales from outside the UK. They will not apply to goods imported from the rest of the UK. This, as acknowledged by the business department’s impact assessment of the Bill, would reduce the ability of local legislatures to produce targeted social and environmental objectives, so that the intended societal—[Inaudible.]

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

We seem to have lost connection with the noble Lord, Lord Hain, so I call the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I have not tabled many amendments to the Bill—although there are many things on which I might seek reconsideration—because it is important that I confine myself to the principal matters. In this group, my amendment requires that the powers in the Bill are to be used only for the promotion of the internal market. Any idea that the Bill can be used for any other purpose should be clearly outlawed.

It is important to note that while the powers of the European Union in relation to our internal market will stop on 31 December, the retained EU law on our internal market will, of course, remain in place unless and until it is altered. Therefore, the question before the Committee now is about the rules that should apply after 31 December, and the powers that exist to change these in that time. I think it is absolutely clear that the responsibility for the internal market in legislative form must ultimately be with the UK Parliament, but of course the UK Parliament includes representatives from all four countries. Therefore, it is a suitable responsibility to carry. However, the other point is that the existing devolved Administrations and legislatures have responsibility for the laws in their particular areas. Accordingly, it is very important to ensure that, so far as possible, the rules of the internal market should accommodate that and be in agreement throughout the whole United Kingdom—in the devolved Administrations and legislatures also.

Therefore, I agree very much with a great deal of what has been said in support of the amendments in this group. I have an amendment later that suggests that every power that the Secretary of State has should be subject to the rule that they consult the JMC(EN), which I think is the committee responsible for the modification and regeneration of the common frameworks. That system seems to have worked very well, as far as I can gather from what has been said. I suggest that every power that the Secretary of State has to make regulations under the Bill should be subject to being put before that committee, which includes Ministers from the devolved Administrations, before they go forward. If, and only if, there is discontent or disagreement, the matter should then be referred to two debates, one in each House of Parliament, to resolve the matter using the responsibility that they have to solve the matters of the common market.

This is absolutely important. It is extremely important that the union we have is preserved by proper relationships between all the Administrations. I see no reason at all why that should not happen. I know that at least one of the Administrations has a desire to forsake the union, but in the meantime, while they are in the union, it is important that we have the best relationships possible with them, so that there is no feeling of resentment. An internal market is a very important part of the union, and a part that would be damaged if there were any degree of separation, both for the remaining units as well as for the unit that was thinking of leaving. This series of amendments in various forms is very important in the preservation of the union, and I support the principles laid down. I do not concentrate particularly on my own amendment, although I think it is quite important.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hain, lost his connection, so we shall try him again now. It seems we are still having problems with the noble Lord, so I now call the noble Lord, Lord Naseby.

[Lord Naseby (Con) [V]]

I thank my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay. He certainly has a very practical sense of the law, which not all lawyers have. He is right: it is an internal market; the relationships between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are usually very close and we all have a common cause, perhaps not in rugby, but in most things. Nevertheless, I repeat that the words used in the Bill are pretty strong. It does not say that, in making regulations, the Secretary of State “may” or “should”, as we see occasionally in law; it uses the word “must”, which is a strong word. He “must consult”; there is no option. That is quite right—absolutely right, but we need to remember what “consult” means.

It is not a soft verb. Its component parts, in my view, involve seeking out information or advice, depending on the subject matter. It means doing one’s best to find out what the views are, to have an interchange and to take into consideration all aspects of the particular action proposed. It is not a dictatorship or anything like that, and I would not believe that any Secretary of State, of any Government, would view it that way. I personally think it is as strong as it needs to be. The addition of “obtain the consent of” in place of “consult” is a threat; there are no two ways about it. When I was in local government and the leader of a local authority, if I had had some legislation in front of me that said, “You have to obtain our consent”, I would dig my heels in. Do not bother about the other 31 local authorities in London—just dig your heels in and that will foul it all up.

That is not what this is all about, so I am not in favour of Amendment 15. I think, though, that the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay have taken the argument a bit further. The noble Lord, Lord Hain, was talking about a qualified majority, when one part of the nation dug its heels in for some reason, and maybe we should look at that. My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay put forward how Parliament might be brought in at a higher level in something that was particularly difficult. There is merit in looking at both aspects, but I just think the amendment before us, Amendment 15, is over the top.

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am told that we have the noble Lord, Lord Hain, again.

[Lord Hain (Lab) [V]]

Thank you, my Lords. I suddenly expired by unilateral mute for reasons that neither the broadcasting hub nor I could understand. I was about to complete what I said so, with the leave of the Committee, I will briefly do so.

The Bill will also narrow the territorial scope of devolved legislation. Regulations relating to goods passed by the Senedd, for example, will apply only to goods produced in Wales or imported directly into Wales from outside the UK. They will not apply to goods imported from the rest of the UK. This, as acknowledged by BEIS’s impact assessment of the Bill, would reduce the ability of local legislatures to pursue targeted social and environmental objectives so that the intended societal benefits “would be forgone”.

It is therefore clear that the market access principles of mutual recognition and non-discrimination set out in the Bill would present a significant threat to the purposes of devolution, which have been democratically established now for nearly two decades. Surely it is not too much to ask that, at the very least, the devolved Administrations should be consulted and their consent sought on the relevant measures in this Bill, as set out in these amendments?

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, has scratched, so I now call the noble Lord, Lord Fox.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, this is a short and vaguely surreal debate. I caught my mind wandering to the “League of Gentlemen” with the slogan “Local goods for local people”—but not even they attempted to define “hypothetical” local goods. Indeed, neither have the Government, because there is no explanation in the non-explanatory Explanatory Memorandum which sits at the back. We are indebted again to the eagle-eyed lawyers of Scotland for finding this issue. The question is simple: what is a “hypothetical good”, why are you using this word and who on earth decides what is a good and what is a hypothetical good?

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

My Lords, we now resume Committee stage and come to the group beginning with Amendment 33. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in this group to a Division should make that clear in debate.

Clause 8: The non-discrimination principle: indirect discrimination

Amendment 33

Moved by

Trade Bill

Baroness Pitkeathley Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 13th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, for putting forward this amendment. We should also be grateful to other colleagues in the Chamber for asking key questions on this.

Bad trade deals produce clear winners and losers. Surely our task is to make sure that British businesses, including those in Northern Ireland, do not lose out in trade agreements and face unnecessary costs. British businesses have faced an incredibly tough year; the pandemic in particular has seriously impacted on UK trade. We have seen big falls in exports and imports in the three months following April 2020; the ONS found that trade exports fell by £33.1 billion in those three months, while imports fell by £29.9 billion. These were the largest three-monthly falls since comparable records began in 1997. Trade will be vital for businesses in the post-Covid recovery period. The Government should make sure that businesses do not face unnecessary costs arising from trade agreements.

I am glad that the Minister has said previously that the Government have committed to publish their negotiating objectives alongside an initial impact assessment. Can he confirm that a full impact assessment for each agreement will be published by the Government at the end of negotiations? Will this full impact assessment be reviewed by an independent body? Will the Government act on any findings that come as a by-product of the review?

There are clearly major problems for Northern Ireland. Does the Minister expect different costs for businesses exporting or importing goods and services to or from Northern Ireland to result from an EU-UK FTA and any rollover agreement for the Japan agreement? Other businesses in the rest of the UK will clearly be affected by this.

The amendment’s explanatory note also refers to additional costs to businesses operating within the UK’s internal market. Labour firmly believes that there is a need for a strong internal market so that businesses can trade freely across the UK’s four nations, which will be vital for our economy and shared prosperity. This will be discussed at length in the Internal Market Bill, which has some important implications for this Bill.

I hope that the Minister is following these debates closely. I hope that we can be reassured that the impact assessments will be transparently conducted and published, and that the Government will take note of their findings. Rather like the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, I accept that there are costs both ways, but we need transparency. That transparency will enable our businesses to trade better, more freely and more competitively.

[The Minister of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and Department for International Trade (Lord Grimstone of Boscobel) (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome this amendment, put down by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, and the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie. As I told the House on the first day of Committee, and as we have touched on since, our continuity agreements seek to replicate the effects of EU agreements, and the 21 agreements that we have already signed show that we are not diverging or introducing new obligations. These agreements are continuity by name and continuity by nature. We therefore do not think it proportionate to produce impact assessments for trade deals that only maintain the status quo. I emphasise that point because I will come to other free trade agreements later.

This is not to say that we intend to deny Parliament information on these agreements. That is why the parliamentary reports that we have committed to publish alongside signed agreements contain detailed information about the volume of trade, the composition of imports and exports, and the wider economic impact of those agreements. As I have said, we will continue to lay these parliamentary reports voluntarily, with Explanatory Memoranda, alongside each new continuity agreement. The recently signed new agreement with Ukraine will of course be treated in that way.

New FTAs are not included in the scope of the Bill—neither are the EU arrangements—but we have committed to publishing in advance of opening negotiations initial economic scoping assessments for the new FTAs setting out what impact we believe the agreements might have. At the end of negotiations, we will produce an impact assessment for the final treaty, alongside an Explanatory Memorandum, prior to it being laid before Parliament for scrutiny under CRaG. The Government believe that this strikes the right balance.

The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, asked what kind of independent assessment will be made of these assessments. I am pleased to say that those assessments will be made by the Regulatory Policy Committee. I can also let the House know that the International Agreements Sub-Committee has already received these assessments in relation to the Japan FTA, which we signed a few weeks ago. These agreements and reports have been made available to the IAC on a confidential basis. We committed that the committee would have these agreements to review in good time before the CRaG process started; I am pleased to say that I had a good meeting with the IAC yesterday where we talked through these processes. I look forward to receiving its report in due course.

The noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, and the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, asked various questions relating to trade with the EU, particularly on customs arrangements and other contingency arrangements, including Northern Ireland matters that will arise at the end of the transition period. If I may, I will write to the noble Lord and the noble Baroness on these matters.

Given these reassurances, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

I have received no requests to speak after the Minister, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Purvis.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, of course I look forward to receiving another letter from the Minister. I hope that he can, at least in this one, give me what has so far proved to be very elusive: simple information in answer to straightforward questions on the current level of intermediaries recruited to support our exporters on the new border operating model. The industry had indicated, which Michael Gove had agreed with, that we require an estimated 50,000. HMRC said at the end of July that 600 had been recruited. All I have been asking is what the current level is—I do not think it is unreasonable for us to know. The border operating model itself explicitly encourages our exporters to use intermediaries because the customs procedures under this model are complex and burdensome. That is the point. I am grateful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, who gave the context of the real pressures on our businesses exporting.

Let me address the specific and very reasonable questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. The amendment explicitly states that the costs to businesses are linked to additional regulatory requirements in regulations made under these orders. It simply is not the case that these agreements stay permanent once they have been made. Often, regulations will be required to be made in the lifetime of these agreements. I would hope that the Minister could confirm that any regulations brought forward would ordinarily have an impact assessment on the cost to businesses associated with them. The whole thrust of the last few years has been about not bringing in regulations without an impact assessment on business. That should be a straightforward thing for the Minister to confirm.

The second subsection of the proposed new clause is about new agreements, and again it is for any additional requirements to implement those agreements. There is not the necessity of a counterfactual, because they are to do with how the Government assess any additional costs to businesses from any new requirements on businesses. The reason I did major on the border operating model was this: it has of course become necessary because of us leaving the European Union, but it is a new border operating model for all exports, not just for exports to the European Union. The Kent access permit is not just for anybody wanting to export to the European Union but also to make sure that we have all of these in place. Therefore, it is right to ask what the cost will be for businesses doing that. It is also a simple fact that if they are likely to be necessary for the Kent access permit to be in place, then that will have an impact on our ports of exit for anybody exporting to any third country around the world. It is inevitable that there will be a spillover impact of any exports. I think it is justified to ask the question: what is the estimate of the cost for businesses?

Finally, I turn to what the Minister said, which was linked to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, on the impact assessments to be carried out on the new agreements coming forward with Japan and Ukraine. That is welcome, and I do welcome it. I was grateful for the Minister notifying me of the Written Ministerial Statement yesterday, which outlined that they would be in place. I welcome them, but the Minister will not be surprised that I think they are insufficient, as we have debated in Committee up until now. But I am grateful that this is on the record and that the Minister confirmed it.

Can the Minister also confirm that they will not simply be an economic impact assessment but a regulatory impact assessment? That is the point of the amendment in this group. It is not just whether it would be considered that there would be net economic benefits for the country, but what the net business costs are for exporters and importers, because they are not necessarily the same. Therefore, sector by sector, it will be helpful to know. If we do not have that information, we will struggle to answer the real point of the questions of the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes: how do we get net benefit for our businesses in exporting, and how are we making them more competitive with others around the world if we do not have that level of business impact assessment for the regulations implementing our trade agreements?

If the Minister wishes to come back on that point, he may. He has indicated already that he will write to me, and I welcome that—if it can be done as quickly as his previous letters, I would appreciate that. I am not yet satisfied before I receive that letter, but, in the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

We now come to the group consisting of Amendment 46. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this amendment to a Division should make that clear in the debate.

Amendment 46

Moved by

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Amendments 59 to 63 not moved.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committeess (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

We come now to Amendment 64. I remind noble Lords, as before, that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this amendment to a Division should make that clear in the debate.

Amendment 64

Moved by

Covid-19: Businesses and the Private Sector

Baroness Pitkeathley Excerpts

Thursday 21st May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Redfern (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, for initiating this debate, reflecting on how businesses and the private sector are collaborating to address this Covid pandemic, which is cutting across people’s lives and livelihoods, and—we hope—to formulate a pathway for businesses not only to survive but to thrive post Covid and get ready for the Brexit D-day. I welcome the continued Treasury support to help businesses large and small, financing them through furlough arrangements, grants or rate relief. Unfortunately, even with all that, not all businesses will survive this pandemic.

Even with such uncertainty, innovative organisations have not stopped taking action right away and offering their services. Companies have adapted quickly to change and redesigned their products or services, or even created new ones, to respond to demand. Textile factories have switched production from curtains and duvets to hand sanitisers, and clothing companies that produced wax jackets now make disposable clinical gowns and medical scrubs.

Post Covid, and post Brexit, it is essential that the Government support companies large and small and encourage them to help scale up, particularly in the engineering, agricultural, chemical and research sectors, thereby increasing their future contribution to UK supply chains, rather than us always looking globally. In the terms of a procurement exercise, let us see what the UK can do first. Tomorrow will present a vastly different landscape. Therefore, if we are to look closer to home with our supply chains, businesses in many areas—

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

Oh, we seem to have lost the noble Baroness, Lady Redfern, so we will go on to the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin.

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[Baroness Uddin]

I have finished.

[The Deputy Speaker]

My Lords, I apologise for some of the difficulties we had with sound there. I call the noble Lord, Lord Desai.

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[Lord Lang of Monkton (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as per the Lords register. I welcome and congratulate my noble friend Lord Dobbs on securing and so effectively introducing this debate. There are certainly vital lessons to be learned from the pandemic about relations between business and government. I wholly endorse tributes paid to the medical and surgical skills of those at the sharp end of saving lives and curing victims, but within the Department of Health and the NHS, among the maze of administrative sectors and subsidiaries, there sometimes seems to be another world that speaks a different language.

The language of business embraces drive, expertise, capability and agility. By contrast, the ponderous language of government bureaucracy sometimes conjures thoughts of delay, control, check and recheck, distrust and aversion to risk. Everything seems to take so long. We hear of telephone calls, emails and letters going unanswered at a time when clothing manufacturers were, voluntarily and unasked, switching their profitable production lines to the manufacture of PPE, and the distillers of whisky and gin to sanitisers. One wonders why precious civil servants are used in, for example, the procurement and distribution of PPE. These tasks are second nature to the private sector, to which speed and accuracy are watchwords.

I am not making a general criticism of the Civil Service. I know from past experience that there are very many brilliant and dedicated civil servants. As a nation, we are deeply fortunate. But some things are surely best done by others. I welcome the progress that is now emerging, but there must be change in the future. The innate suspicion that parts of the Civil Service seem to harbour against the private sector must be overcome. Efficiency, inventiveness and adaptability are what we need and what it offers. Its concern is not ownership or control of chunks of government departments. In times of crisis it wants to help, to be consulted and to work in partnership. Going forward, there needs to be a rebooting of the relationship between the business world and government. Covid-19 has revealed that need. It is time for the private sector to be the first port of call instead of the last resort. That needs a change of culture which I hope the Government will initiate.

[The Deputy Speaker]

My Lords, after I call the next speaker, the Chair will be taken by the noble Baroness, Lady Garden of Frognal.