National Security and Investment Bill

Debate between Baroness Noakes and Baroness Northover

Committee stage & Lords Hansard
Tuesday 2nd March 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Northover (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, laid out in her opening remarks the necessity for clarity about what risks this Bill seeks to address, arguing for a definition of national security in Amendment 13. There are indeed arguments for such a definition, as the Law Society of Scotland, and that for England and Wales, have laid out, lest the Government might, for example, respond to political, economic or electoral pressures to define risks which should not be brought within the scope of this Bill. Others see risks associated with such definitions and further legal minefields. However, the Law Society of England and Wales sees a risk in Amendment 2—that extending the scope of the clause to cover “public order and public safety” could give rise to similar concerns, unless these terms could be strictly defined so as not to include political motives. However, I hear what the noble Baroness says about her aim here, and about the risks to our democratic processes.

I speak here particularly to Amendment 83 in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayter and Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, which I have also signed. The amendment is extremely restrained. The Government have made much play of the importance of their proposed integrated review of security, defence, development and foreign policy. From time to time, these reviews are made. There was one after the general election of 2010, and another after the 2015 general election. Of course, that latter one included pandemic as a risk, and emphasised how important it was to the United Kingdom, economically and strategically, to be at the heart of the EU, through which, as it put it, we amplified our power and prosperity.

One might say that a new assessment is indeed desperately needed. It was due last year but was knocked off course by the pandemic, which did not stop the Government pre-empting its conclusions by merging DfID with the FCO and cutting aid, even though in 2015 this was seen as a mark of our global reach—global Britain, you might say. In addition, the Government announced spending levels for the MoD before Christmas, none of this waiting for a proper strategic review.

So now we have this Bill on threats to national security, without that review having been published. We hear that it is imminent. Could the noble Lord update us? Is it indeed being buried by the Budget coverage? We have certainly heard that it has got thinner and thinner, perhaps one-fifth the length of the 2015 one, and that it is large on rhetoric and small on how it is to be achieved. Nevertheless, this should be an important statement of what the UK identifies as threats and ambitions. Therefore, this should have preceded this Bill and underpinned what it was trying to do, if the Government are to be joined up.

Amendment 83 asks that, when the review is finally published, the Government publish a statement that outlines how provisions in the Act will align with the UK’s long-term security priorities and concerns as identified in the review. The amendment states that this should be

“As soon as reasonably practicable”,


a generous phrase that Baroness Hayter used in tabling this amendment, more generous than the one I would have used.

Perhaps, because there is little confidence in the review, as one would have thought these areas would definitely be covered, this statement should also include how the Bill will respond to emerging threats, new technology, biological weapons, cyber, misinformation and military developments by the UK’s adversaries. One of the successes of the 2015 review was certainly the emphasis on cyber and the subsequent and important expansion of UK capacity in this area. I am sure that this will not be neglected in the new review. The amendment asks the Secretary of State to lay a statement before Parliament. It is surely the least that the Government should do to try to ensure that the Bill is aligned with whatever comes forward in the strategic security review. The Government should be able to simply accept the amendment, and I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, at Second Reading, I said that I felt that a lack of definition for national security was a problem, and I still feel uneasy about that. I understand the need for flexibility to take account of how threats evolve over time. My noble friend the Minister said at Second Reading that national security was not defined in other legislation, but I am not sure that is quite good enough, given that this legislation will have a particularly big impact on commercial transactions, and what the business sector needs is certainty. Other uses of the term have not had that sort of impact on business transactions. I completely understand the difficulties of definition—problems of being too restrictive or insufficiently comprehensive. I think Amendment 13, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, is a better approach than Amendment 1 with its objective clause, but I am concerned that it may still carry some of the defects that I outlined when I spoke to Amendment 1.

The statement that the Secretary of State will make under Clause 3 will certainly help businesses and their advisers but, at the end of the day, national security is the big overarching concept in the Bill which is left without further detail. Several noble Lords have already referred to the letter from my noble friend the Minister to all Peers, which came out while he was speaking earlier. I have had an opportunity to have a quick look at it on my iPad, and I do not think that any Member of the Committee will find that it advances our consideration of the Bill this afternoon at all: it just says that there is a lot more work to do.

If there is no definition or further elaboration of what national security means in the context of the powers created in the Bill, the Government will be giving the courts a blank sheet of paper if, as is probably likely, at some stage a challenge to the use of the powers under the Bill is mounted in the courts. We must remember that we have an activist judiciary, especially over the road in the Supreme Court, and the Government really ought to be alert to that fact and try and proof legislation against what can be done there. I shall be listening very carefully to what my noble friend says are the reasons for leaving national security as such a completely open issue in the Bill, and I look forward to hearing his remarks.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Noakes and Baroness Northover

Monday 31st January 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Noakes]

My Lords, I have Amendments 33B and 33C in this group, and my noble friend Lord Jenkin has Amendment 33A. Having heard what the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, said in introducing his amendments, I think that it would be for the convenience of the Committee if I dealt with the rather different issues raised by our amendments by degrouping them. I shall therefore not speak to them now.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I should like to start by countering comments made by the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, during a previous discussion. Far from feeling that I have drawn the short straw as the Whip, the opposite is the case. Not only is my noble friend Lord Marland taking the particularly complicated areas but—far more importantly—this is such an easy Bill. It is a Bill on which we are agreed across the Committee, so it is a great delight. Our purpose here is to refine how best to achieve the Bill’s objectives. That may not have been the noble Lord’s experience in the past, but if he watches me through these proceedings, he will notice how happy I am.

Amendment 33ZA provides that sufficient information must be disclosed to enable those involved in the Green Deal to decide what measures are appropriate for a property. However, Clause 70 is not intended to make data available for this purpose. If someone was considering how to improve a building’s energy efficiency, they would commission an EPC, which would include recommended measures to improve the energy efficiency of the building and form the basis of advice by a qualified Green Deal adviser on the most appropriate measures for the property.

The Green Deal adviser would calculate exactly how much money would need to be borrowed and the number and amount of repayments et cetera. This is all part of the discussion that a householder will need to have with the Green Deal adviser as part of the potential transaction. We do not consider it necessary or appropriate to stipulate this level of detail in legislation.

Amendment 33CA provides that, where a property is to be sold or rented out, the seller, prospective landlord or their agent must provide an EPC free of charge to a prospective buyer or tenant, the EPC should be no more than a year old and the person providing it must not believe that it is inaccurate. It has been a statutory requirement under existing regulations since October 2008 that an EPC is made available free of charge to a prospective buyer or tenant when a property is put on the market by the seller or prospective landlord. In the case of domestic sales, there is a duty on the agent to be satisfied that an EPC has been commissioned before marketing a property. A similar duty will be extended to agents in respect of domestic rentals and non-domestic transactions later this year.

As for the accuracy of EPCs, which is what the noble Lord is flagging up, I assure noble Lords that, under existing regulations, a duty of care is placed on the energy assessor to carry out energy assessments with reasonable skill and care. The only change that this amendment would introduce would be to provide that EPCs must be less than a year old. At present, an EPC can be up to 10 years old. In deciding on an appropriate validity period, we need to strike a balance between ensuring that an EPC contains up-to-date information and not requiring sellers or prospective landlords to incur unnecessary costs. In future, where improvement works are funded through the Green Deal, there will be an obligation to produce an updated EPC to capture the impact of the work on the energy efficiency of the property. While there will not be such an obligation where Green Deal finance was not used, it would be sensible for them to obtain an updated EPC that reflected the impact of any other work, because it will benefit them when seeking to sell or rent out the property. However, it is unnecessary to introduce a statutory obligation in such circumstances. I hope that noble Lords have found my explanation reassuring and will withdraw their amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, it will not surprise the Minister to hear that I agree entirely with the case made by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. The sanctions are a different and important dimension, which is why the Merits Committee referred to the issue. The Minister will know only too well that regard for the Merits Committee is such that, when it recommends the affirmative procedure rather than the existing negative procedure, Ministers normally agree, as I hope the noble Baroness will.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, the Bill does not intend to create any new criminal offences or impose financial penalties. However, we hear what the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, says and we are indeed happy to look at this again on Report.

[Baroness Noakes]

My Lords, it is a handsome offer definitely to come back on Report. How could I possibly refuse? I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Noakes and Baroness Northover

Wednesday 26th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Noakes]

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, might have forgotten that on Wednesdays the Grand Committee normally sits until 7.45 pm, not 7.30, so we are not 15 minutes but only a couple of minutes over. That is the Wednesday convention. However, I support the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, having spent many days in Grand Committee, often with him. It is customary in Grand Committee not to overrun by more than a couple of minutes and it would have been helpful not to have begun consideration of this amendment. The custom is not like that in the main Chamber, where if you start an amendment before 10 pm you finish it, but as near as possible to that time. That was the custom when I was in Opposition and the noble Lord, Lord Davies, often had to call time on behalf of the Government. I thought it was fair to say that.

[Baroness Northover]

As the inexperienced Whip on this Bill, I think I need to apologise if we have overshot. Given that we started consideration of the amendment before the finishing time, and given that it is incredibly unpredictable as to how long any amendment will take, and given that we discussed various clauses, including the one that this amendment slots into, it seemed to me—although I was clearly in error—that we could look at it quickly. That is clearly not the case, and I therefore apologise for trespassing on noble Lords’ time.

Perhaps I may respond as rapidly as I can to my noble friend. We fully support the underlying ideas in this amendment. It is essential that, when designing new energy policies, we take into account the costs and benefits of the full range of technologies available. The noble Baroness flagged up some important areas. However, I should point out that including specific measures and organisations in the Bill in this way leads potentially to the kind of problems that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, was flagging up earlier, by potentially, if things become redundant, having the problem of needing to consolidate Bills because things have moved on and changed. Although we very much support the ideas behind the amendment, including bringing in new technologies, we encourage the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment at this stage.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Noakes and Baroness Northover

Monday 24th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Noakes]

Perhaps I can clarify the golden rule. The issue is that tenants have different time horizons so a tenant might be looking at a one or two-year time horizon for their tenancy, which is quite different from the time horizon of looking out over a 25-year period of an occupancy or long-term tenancy. That may well create difficulties in the rented sector because tenants analyse things differently. The point I was trying to make was that the golden rule does not help to give a guide to rational decision-making for tenants.

[Baroness Northover]

I understand what the noble Baroness is saying. These are all areas which the department is looking at. However, I point out that the Bill already ensures that sitting tenants must give their express consent before a Green Deal can be taken out, so if a tenant feels that it is to their detriment, they have the right to refuse. Similarly, landlords must make clear to new tenants if a Green Deal is attached to a rental property before they sign a contract.

Given that these consumer safeguards are already in place, and bearing in mind what the noble Baroness is saying, I hope that at this stage she feels able to withdraw her amendment.

[Lord Teverson]

I ask the Minister what happens when we have a change of tenancy and the golden rule is met by the first tenant whose energy use is quite high, so it works, but the new tenant is a lower energy user. They may be a smaller family or a smaller household or have a different preference as to how they spend their money. The golden rule that was met by the first tenant might not be met by the second and yet, because there is such a competition for rented accommodation, you will possibly get a position where the incoming tenant, although warned, will just say yes anyway.

I wonder if the Minister could remind us—or me—if there is an opportunity for the Green Deal to be renegotiated at that point or does the higher electricity rate stay the same all the way through? This may be important in terms of this change and whether subsequent families could be put into energy poverty.

[Baroness Noakes]

Perhaps I may clarify the aspect of the review that I was probing. While the consent of the individual tenant to a Green Deal may be required, the point of making sure that this is covered in the review is that if there was widespread tenant apathy or unwillingness to get involved because of the issues that I have raised, there would be little point in going ahead with a regulatory approach, which is what Chapter 4 allows the Government to do. I also suggested that the tenant environment should be properly assessed before we go down the regulatory route. That is why I tabled the amendment.

[Baroness Northover]

I hear what my noble friend says. We will debate the review in more detail. My noble friend Lord Marland has indicated that, in addition to the areas that are listed in connection with the review, there is the possibility that it will consider other things. It may be that the department should give some thought to this area.

I will respond to my noble friend Lord Teverson. I am concentrating on DfID, justice, et cetera. I am pretty sure that in this situation, should a tenant decide that they want to take a holiday from opting into the Green Deal, that would be possible. I remember being briefed on that. That may fit the situation that the noble Lord spoke about in which a tenant decides that it is not in their interest that the Green Deal is pushed down the track and that they do not want to repay the charge. I will make absolutely sure that I am right about that.

I am briefed that one cannot renegotiate the charge, but one can have a repayment holiday. Therefore, should the tenant decide in that instance that that is what they want to do, that would be possible. It does not mean that the money does not have to be paid back. However, it may not have to be paid back by that particular tenant at that time. It has also been pointed out to me that there will be a Green Deal ombudsman who will provide some protection. I hope that that will reassure noble Lords.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Northover]

I will resist the temptation to speculate about areas that I may be less than well briefed on. If the noble Lord wishes to bring that up again when my much better briefed noble friend Lord Marland is dealing with a suitable amendment, I would welcome that he does that. ECO will target households and presumably subsidise poorer ones. However, before I get myself into any more of a complicated mess, I invite the noble Baroness, having led me down various alleys, to withdraw the amendment.

[Baroness Noakes]

My Lords, I am happy to withdraw the amendment. I think that we have opened up a number of interesting areas in the debate on my small amendment. I cannot pretend that the Minister has answered all the points to the satisfaction of the Committee. I feel sure that, in one way or another, we will return to this topic when we reach Report stage; but, for the time being, I beg leave to withdraw.