Cultural Property (Armed Conflicts) Bill [HL]

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Tuesday 28th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Redesdale (LD)]

My Lords, this issue was raised on Second Reading and, although the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, was not there, his contributions to all things archaeological were mentioned—he has been contributing for many years, as have many of us.

On Second Reading, we raised the issue that to make changes to anything in the 1954 convention would make this a difficult Bill to pass and, I believe, would be outside the Short Title of the Bill. However, an issue which will be raised again and again—I shall put it on the table now and probably not speak to some of the amendments in the future—is that, while we have not been signed up to the 1954 convention, we have been implementing the broad outlines of it in other places. Will the Minister make sure that the concerns of your Lordships’ House are expressed when the outlines are set out, and repeated, for the cultural protection fund?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Neville-Rolfe)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for his welcome for the Bill, and for his constructive approach to scrutiny with a view to helping those who will have to implement and interpret it. To respond to the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, we will certainly take account of the points that have been made by Peers in considering this Bill as we come to implement it.

There is a concern that the Bill should enable appropriate protection of all forms of cultural property and that the definition of cultural property in the convention should be interpreted in a way which makes that possible. However, I have a few concerns about the proposed amendment.

First, we consider that the noble Lord’s amendment risks allowing the development of an interpretation of the definition in the United Kingdom which is not consistent with its internationally accepted interpretation. That would be undesirable. It would create uncertainty and inconsistency in the application of the convention and its protocols and could result in the UK failing to comply with its obligations under them. None of us wants that. The definition of cultural property set out in Article 1 is already wide ranging. The phrase,

“movable or immovable property of great importance to the cultural heritage of every people”,

is not limited, as has been said, to those things which are specifically mentioned. They are presented as examples of the sorts of cultural property which are protected by the convention. Other cultural property can also be protected under the convention if it is of great importance to the cultural heritage of every people. The definition is already sufficiently broad and flexible.

To answer the question from the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, we can accommodate rare and unique films and modern forms of cultural property such as digital material in the form of physical recordings.

The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, and my noble friend Lord Inglewood—who are both welcome to our proceedings and were certainly missed at Second Reading —are right. I was interested to hear the point about the knock-on effects for the 127 countries involved.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, rightly mentioned the BFI National Archive and we commend his work as a former director. The BFI could certainly be considered during our implementation process as the convention includes archives as an example of a building that could be considered to be cultural property and therefore protected under the convention. Indeed, it may even give me the opportunity to visit those splendid archives in the course of carrying our responsibilities forward.

I hope that that provides noble Lords with sufficient reassurance that the definition as drafted is necessary in order to meet our obligations under the convention but flexible enough to meet the concerns expressed about what sort of cultural property might be covered. I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I thank all noble Lords for contributing to this short debate. I take the points, which were well made. In response to my noble friend Lord Howarth, whose work on this Bill in its previous manifestation we acknowledge, I would point out that there are other definitions in current use in international agreements such as UNESCO agreements where the definition is markedly different, and it may be that that would be the kind of marker that we have in mind. If I gave the wrong impression I apologise, but I am certainly not going to take this amendment to the next stage and I will not raise it again. It has been tabled simply to provide a debate of the type that we have had.

My point was picked up by the Minister but perhaps I may press her a little on it. If she is saying that in respect of the British list she would certainly have consideration of the BFI National Archive and the associated archives in the UK high on her list, that is a sufficient illustration to make the point that although it could be worked into the current definitions, one has had enough experience of lawyers to know that sometimes those lists can trap you, so it is nice to have it set out in primary legislation. A statement from the Minister at this stage is very helpful, but as I hinted I have a clever plan up my sleeve which I may come back to. In the interim, however, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, for his amendments and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for supporting them. I know that many noble Lords will have been in touch with Professor Peter Stone about the use of “breach” as opposed to “violation” in this clause. I had an extremely productive meeting with him only this morning and I will take this opportunity to thank him for his impressive contribution to the field of cultural protection. The nature of the offence is already established in this clause, so it does not need to be set out separately in the first line.

I recognise that there is some uncertainty, as the noble Earl explained so eloquently, and perhaps confusion, as to why we are using “breach” in the title of this part and clause when the convention and protocol refer to a “violation”. The reason for the Government’s approach is very straightforward: breach is a more familiar term in English law, although its meaning in this context is the same as violation. The term “violation” is used in subsection (1)(b) because it is repeating the text of the convention and the Second Protocol. The point has been raised by a number of people, including Members of this House, so I will take the matter away and consider very carefully whether we have got this right before Report. I hope that, on that basis, the noble Earl will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[The Earl of Clancarty]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, again for his contribution and the Minister for that encouraging reply. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I raised this matter at Second Reading. The issue of inchoate offences is very important, particularly in this context. It sends the criminal law much further down, into preparatory acts. In these situations you often have a group of people acting—passing on information to buyers, et cetera. You often need to scoop quite a large number of people, so I would be grateful for confirmation from the Minister, because the inchoate offences in this context are an incredibly important part of stamping down all activity in relation to this illegal trade.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, in addressing these two amendments I hope to satisfy noble Lords, but if I do not we should speak between now and Report. I appreciate that the aim of the amendments is to ensure that the Bill allows the UK to meet all our obligations under the convention and its two protocols. Clause 4, as currently drafted, already allows the UK to meet its obligations under Article 15(2) of the Second Protocol and the legislation will comply with,

“general principles of law and international law”.

I will outline my main points now, although, given that this is a technical and complicated issue to explain briefly, I will reflect on what has been asked and send noble Lords a note setting out the Government’s position on this amendment.

The purpose and effect of Clause 4 are to ensure that the UK has extraterritorial jurisdiction to try all ancillary offences in the same circumstances in which Clause 3 establishes such jurisdiction to try the substantive offences. It does not establish the ancillary offences, which already exist under at least five different and relevant pieces of legislation. The good news is that these apply automatically to offences under Clause 3. In respect of England and Wales and Northern Ireland, the definitions of,

“An offence ancillary to an offence under section 3”,

are limited to the offences of attempting, conspiring, assisting and concealing, because it is only in relation to these offences that there might be doubt as to their extraterritorial application.

Where the existing law is clear as to extraterritorial application—which it is in relation to aiding and abetting and the offences under the Serious Crime Act 2007, which replaced the previous offence of incitement—no provision is made. However, as noble Lords will appreciate, to make such provision unnecessarily would be bad drafting practice and could create doubt as to the other situations where no such express provision is made.

The position in relation to Scottish criminal law is different and this is taken into account in the drafting of Clause 4(6). I assure noble Lords that the Scottish Government have, of course, been consulted on this provision.

I hope that brief explanation, together with the note that I am planning to send to noble Lords, will provide sufficient explanation and reassurance that we have taken the correct approach on ancillary offences, and that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I thank the Minister for that response and for the offer to write to us with more detail. I hope she will be able to respond in more detail than I can in terms of endorsing the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, which I think took a slightly deeper cut through some of these issues than did my amendment but are still very important. I am sure the Minister will want to ensure that her noble friend is properly responded to.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

Of course, I should have said that I will ensure that we look very carefully at my noble friend’s points, and the same letter will set out the detail of the proposals. Looking at these amendments and the consequential provisions, I was struck by how complex this all was. I had some of the questions that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, raised, so please let me set it all out and I hope everybody will be satisfied and we can move forward.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

Obviously, I should just keep sitting down and the noble Baroness will give us more and more. A deluge of Keeling schedule after Keeling schedule will arrive and more and more of these extraordinary areas will be explored. I am sure that we will find the right balance here. We do not wish to overload either ourselves or the civil servants, who I am sure have quite enough on their plate with other things. It would be helpful to pick out the particularity of the point made by the Minister’s noble friend but not lose the way in which the original formulations of the legislation come together to create offences that will be appropriate under this legislation. I am probably asking for the impossible but I think we both agree that the measure is not entirely clear as it stands, partly because, in seeking to minimise the amount of legislation, we are not seeing the whole picture, so if that could be brought forward, that would be helpful. We will return to this point as it comes up at later stages but in the meantime I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I will speak briefly to the Clause 6 stand part debate, which is included in this group of amendments. The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, has raised a number of the points that I was going to raise, and I will not repeat them. I simply make three short points. I think this is the first time we have reached a point in the Bill where any amendment that might be put down would not interfere with our ability to sign up to the convention. This is an area where, for instance, the tariff of 30 years is not specified, so it would be at the discretion of the Government, should they wish to change that.

The points made by the noble Baroness were germane to this. We touched on this on Second Reading, and although 30 years was said to be appropriate for the maximum because it was in line with other areas, we are talking about a very narrow range of people who could be affected here: those who are under orders, or supposedly under orders, operating in a foreign territory with which we are at war. There may be circumstances that need a more considered view in the legislation, but we do not have a very strong view on this; as my noble friend Lord Touhig said, we are broadly in support of what is here, but this is an opportunity to make sure that we have the right approach as set out by the Minister when she comes to respond.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I thank noble Lords for tabling these important amendments and the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, for his helpful explanation. It is good to welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, to our consideration. As she said, she brings her experience as a DfID Minister, with whom I was happy to serve.

I will say by way of introduction that it is absolutely right that government departments, including of course the Ministry of Defence, and the Armed Forces work closely together in bringing this Bill through to implementation to make sure that they understand the obligations that ratification of the convention will place on them. I hope we were all reassured on Second Reading when I explained that both the MoD and the Armed Forces were fully supportive of the Bill—I repeat that for those of your Lordships who missed Second Reading—and that all our Armed Forces already act as if bound by the convention and both protocols, but the legislation and its implementing provisions are extremely important.

The Joint Service Manual of the Law of Armed Conflict is already updated periodically by military lawyers, who will ensure that the necessary rules, regulations, legislation and advice regarding the Hague convention and its two protocols are fully reflected in the manual once ratification has taken place. I do not believe it is necessary to place a legal requirement, as Amendment 5 seeks to do, on the Secretary of State to ensure that this happens.

Turning to Amendment 6, command appointments within our Armed Forces change regularly, so laying a list before Parliament of all ranking military commanders who are responsible for a Section 3 offence committed by forces under their effective command would quickly require updating or become obsolete. Commanders are responsible for ensuring compliance of their forces and forces under their control with a wide range of national and international legislation. Singling out the Hague convention as the only piece of domestic or international legislation where such a list is required could set an unhelpful precedent.

I turn to Amendments 7 and 8, concerning the proposed new clauses on embedded forces and private military contractors. I think that their intended effect is already covered in the Bill and I have concerns about potential unintended consequences if we were to make the amendments. First, the Armed Forces Act 2006 provides that regular members of the Armed Forces remain subject to UK service law at all times. This includes times when they are under the command of another country. Embedded personnel would therefore still be within the definition in Clause 3 (6) of,

“person subject to UK service jurisdiction”,

and the Bill would apply to them in the same way as if they remained under UK command.

The noble Lords, Lord Touhig and Lord Howarth, talked about private military contractors. Such contractors and their individual staff are also already covered by the Bill and will be criminally liable in the same way as any other legal or natural person. For example, should an employee of a private military contractor who is a UK national or subject to UK service jurisdiction commit an act abroad of a kind described in Article 15(1)(d) or (e) of the Second Protocol, they could be criminally liable under Clause 3 on the same basis as any other person—so I think they are covered.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

What is the position of British service personnel embedded in the armed services of another country that has not signed the convention? If they found that the armed forces of that other country were about to do something in violation of the convention, what would be their position and obligations, and how would they receive advice from the authorities and commanders in this country?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

If the noble Lord will bear with me for a minute, I will see whether we can clarify that. In the meantime, I point to Clause 29, which ensures that senior management of private military contractors are personally liable for offences committed by their organisations if they consented or connived in the offence. This ensures that senior managers cannot escape the consequences of the actions of their organisations if they were personally involved in them—another reassurance.

I am also concerned that the amendment might have unintended consequences for this and other legislation. By making explicit reference to embedded forces and private military contractors in the Bill, we could risk creating doubt and confusion in the interpretation of both the Bill and other legislation. That is a general point that I have made already in relation to other amendments.

Turning to Amendment 9—forgive me for having to go through this in this degree of detail, but I think it is helpful ahead of Report—this suggests a new clause on reporting to Parliament on military measures. The joint military cultural property protection working group, which has been mentioned, is already working to review the current cultural property protection training within the UK Armed Forces. Those forces already act as if bound by the Hague convention, and respect for cultural property is upheld across the UK’s Armed Forces in military law, targeting policy, training, in-battle area evaluation and assessment.

This review will ensure that we are fully compliant with all military obligations, including Article 7 under the Hague convention and its two protocols. This will be complemented once the UK becomes a high contracting party, which I think is three months after Royal Assent, with an implementation report every four years, as required by UNESCO, giving information of all the measures being taken to fulfil our obligations under the convention. Article 7 is one of a number of issues outlined by UNESCO which national authorities may wish to take into account when preparing their national reports. Having looked at this, I believe that these two reports will be sufficient to monitor our obligations under the convention and its protocols and to ensure they are fulfilled following ratification.

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[Lord Howarth of Newport]

Is the Minister able to assist the Committee with any observations about the resources that will be available to the cultural property protection unit now and in future?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

We have made this a priority. I was going to say that my noble friend Lady Berridge made a good point about the link to the police. We have the military—the monuments men whom we heard about last time, one of them a 100 year-old woman—and the police effort. Together they need to have adequate resource, as I explained last time. Although it is an operational decision for the Met, working with the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime, to determine the available resources, in the spending review the Government pledged strong support for the police.

On the monuments men and the monuments lady in particular, I will come back to noble Lords on exactly what our plans are. The good news is that they are well geared up and are starting to recruit specialists into the Army Reserve pending final approval of the Bill now that we have, at last, found parliamentary time.

The working group will continue to provide updates on its progress, but I do not feel that a statutory requirement on the Secretary of State to produce a report a year after the Act is passed would be appropriate at such an early stage of its development. I hope the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, talked about the penalties when he spoke about whether the clause should stand part. Concerns have been expressed about the 30-year term. To some degree, I sympathise. I felt that when I saw the provisions. I am pleased to say that officials have now outlined the detailed reasons behind the approach, and I agree with their reasoning. The introduction of the penalty is considered appropriate to comply with Article 15(2) of the second protocol, which obliges parties to adopt measures necessary to establish in their domestic law criminal offences as set out in Article 15(1) of the same protocol and to make them punishable by appropriate penalties. While at first sight it may seem surprising that an offence of this nature and ancillary offences, such as attempting or conspiring, attract the same maximum penalty as war crimes, this flows naturally from the seriousness with which these offences are considered in international law. It is worth noting, as the noble Lord acknowledged, that this is a maximum penalty. In practice, the penalty may be a much shorter sentence or even a fine and the maximum sentence is likely to be reserved for only the most heinous crimes against cultural property.

The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, asked whether we have consulted the Sentencing Council. We have not consulted it, but we will certainly look into this. I also thank the noble Lord for raising this point.

There are a number of important amendments in this group. The military is already very much behind this work, and we are gearing up for further work following the Bill’s passage—smoothly and rapidly, I hope—through the two Houses of Parliament, if that is possible these days. I will write to noble Lords with a little more detail about the working group.

[Baroness Northover]

Is the Minister able to give any kind of answer to the noble Lord, Lord Howarth? He asked a very pertinent question about what happens when our military might be embedded with others. I realise that at Second Reading there was mention of the situation in Yemen, which is a case in point. If there is a response that might suddenly inspire the Minister—I think that one might have arrived—it would be helpful to have it now rather than in a letter.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

May I add a gloss to the intervention that I made? We really have to think about a situation in which we are working with an ally who might have signed the convention but not both protocols.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I thank the noble Lord for pressing the point. I hope it will help if I say that British forces will act as if bound by the Act whether they are embedded or not. If they were involved in destruction under command, we would use our discretion on prosecution.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who took part in this very short debate. The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and I certainly believe that there are gaps in the Bill, and we will study the Minister’s response very carefully to see if she has managed to plug them or if we will be pressing a little further. The interventions from my noble friend Lord Howarth of Newport were very important, particularly when he talked about the cultural property protection unit. He asked four key questions about its budget, its resources and its scale of functions and how the lines of communication work. I am not sure the Minister was able to give the answers to all those questions, but doubtless she will write.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I thank the noble Lord for giving way. I think I acknowledged that I had not managed to answer his penetrating question. We explained a little at Second Reading about how it would be set up. He was talking about resourcing, while my noble friend Lady Berridge made a good point about the link to policing. We need to return to the “embedded” question, because although I gave the noble Lord an answer I am not sure that we were quite getting at the point that he was making, which is why I was perhaps a little nervous in answering his question. We will look at that issue. The point is that our intentions in this area are clearly positive, and we will certainly write before Report on the issues that have been raised.

[Lord Touhig]

What I was basically going to say is that I am sure the Minister will want to share her letters with the rest of the Committee when she does that. An important point that was well made by the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, is that we need joined-up government in this respect. The noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, talked about the very practical issue that he discovered when he was in the Middle East. That will also bear further consideration.

The Minister told us in her reply that the various manuals are updated regularly, which is good. She believes that Amendments 7 and 8 are already covered by the Bill. Perhaps we could have a little more clarity on that when she is able to write to us; I am sure she will write on a number of issues.

We have had a useful short debate. There are issues that cause worry, particularly the question of embedded forces. As a result of the interventions from my noble friend Lord Howarth, I realise that this is an issue that I had not considered when I tabled the amendment. We will certainly want to know more about that and how we can practically respond to it. With those remarks, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Redesdale]

My Lords, while I support the idea of changing international law, we have waited 60 years for this treaty to be ratified by the Government and if we had to wait for the same period of time for the convention—if it happened tomorrow—I would be about 120. So I think it is a wonderful idea to come forward, and of course the irony is not lost that we are talking about ratifying one treaty while of course most of the thoughts in this place are about another treaty.

I will ask the Minister one thing on the specific problem of the situation whereby much of the cultural heritage being targeted by non-state groups happens in areas we know are destabilised already—and of course, the formation of the cultural protection fund is a way of actually protecting some of those issues. But could the Minister say what proactive measures are put in place in the formation of the cultural protection fund to make sure that culture we know is under threat is being protected? Of course, we discussed digital archives. One wonderful way of doing it is digitally archiving all the archives around the world or helping museums to protect their archives. Of course, as in the case of the museum in Baghdad, that was a problem in itself because they wanted to loot the archive to find out what they could steal. That of course is an issue that will come forward and while we are in the position of forming the cultural protection fund, I very much hope that the Minister can give some indication that we will be taking the issue of pre-emptive knowledge very seriously, rather than trying to reconstruct what has been destroyed.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, I am grateful for this interesting debate and for the amendments that have been laid. I should perhaps start by responding to the broader point that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, made and which my noble friend Lord Renfrew and the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, endorsed about the idea of a third protocol. I venture to say that in discussing the possibility of a third protocol, we are getting a bit ahead of ourselves. I think that we had all-party support for concentrating and pushing through rapidly a Bill so that, at last, the United Kingdom could ratify the existing convention and the existing protocols. This would make us the only permanent member of the UN Security Council to have ratified the convention and both protocols, and that would put us in a strong position as regards the protection of cultural property in the event of armed conflict, particularly when you look at other provisions that I will come on to mention. It also will allow us to attend meetings of state parties where we can discuss issues relating to the implementation and operation of the convention and the protocols. But I do not think it is the day to agree to a major new initiative for a third protocol.

I do think I should say something, however, about the application of the law to Syria, which is an important issue that is underlying this idea. I was clear at Second Reading that the UK does not recognise Daesh as a state and so the Bill’s application to Syria and other civil wars is limited. The dealing offence in Clause 17 does not apply to Syria because it covers only unlawfully exported cultural property from occupied territories, as we have all said.

Under international law, territory can be occupied only by another state. As, rightly, we do not recognise Daesh as a state, Syria cannot be classed as occupied territory. However, as my noble friend Lady Berridge said, this does not represent a serious gap in our provisions because sanctions already exist for cultural property removed from Syria since March 2011, and dealing in cultural property exported from Syria is prohibited under UK law.

A UK national fighting with Daesh in Syria can be prosecuted under our Bill in relation to,

“theft, pillage or misappropriation of, and any acts of vandalism directed against, cultural property”,

protected under the convention. To expand or extend this application would, of course, be a serious over- implementation of the convention in UK legislation. That, of course, is not the purpose of the Bill.

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[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I might need to ask for a short break shortly to get my papers in order. This amendment is the pretty one. The Bill contains a diagram, which is unusual in parliamentary drafting. We do not often get to look at the symmetry and angles with which the rather crude representation of the emblem appears in Clause 3 in Part 8. If your Lordships have not seen it, I draw your attention to it, because we are now talking about culture. It helpfully has a key, which says that it is white and royal blue; it looks black to me but let us not worry too much about that. The point is that it has been used and has been found to be effective in its impact. I think the best-known example of its use was in the recent Iraq conflict, where the emblem was painted on top of the museum. That certainly saved it from being bombed but unfortunately it seemed—I am not sure whether this is true, but it is certainly a good story—to alert those people who had not perhaps known that it contained valuable artefacts to the fact that it was a storehouse of things they could loot, things which have subsequently been brought through to the international market. So it does not always work.

However, it is obviously a feature of the convention and we do not oppose it. Our amendment simply reflects on the way in which the emblem is restricted in its use—which is dealt with in the protocols and regulations. Again, a set of phrases is used that is redolent of the 1950s in terms of sticky paper, etching and watermarking, but there is no sense of how it might need to be applied in the digital age. It is a probing amendment, as all my other amendments are, to draw attention to the need to think about how we might update and improve the requirements and to give the Minister an opportunity perhaps to make a few points on how the emblem would be used in future. I beg to move.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments. It is indeed delightful and unusual to have a cultural emblem on the face of legislation—I think I am not meant to flash legislation in the House, but I am delighted. On a lighter note, I was also delighted to see that Professor Peter Stone had a badge showing the emblem when he came to see me today. I am slightly worried that he might not be able to continue to use the badge, which shows him as a supporter, but I hope we can ensure that is not the case, because it is totemic and important. I am also grateful for the opportunity to clarify the circumstances in which digital material could be protected, although we have touched on it already.

Relatively modern types of cultural property such as film or recorded music could indeed be covered by the definition of “cultural property”. In practice, this would be in the form of physical recordings and storage, even if the film or music was digital. We would expect the emblem to be displayed on the physical object containing the recording or digital data.

The regulations to the convention provide that the emblem may be represented in any appropriate form. That gives full flexibility on how it can be displayed, which may be valuable. As has been said, this was evidenced when the blue shield was painted on the roof of the National Museum of Iraq to protect the building from air strikes. Therefore, there is nothing to preclude the emblem being displayed in digital form; for example, on a screen or by projection.

Ensuring the authorised use of the cultural emblem is especially important given that the blue shield has been said to be the cultural equivalent of the Red Cross. I certainly see it that way. This might be a good point at which to welcome the work done by Michael Meyer, the head of international law at the British Red Cross, who is, and remains, a champion of work in this field and a strong advocate of the Bill.

On introducing a statutory requirement to publish criteria on permission for use the blue shield, this would create inflexibility when flexibility and rapid reaction are most needed. Of course, techniques change.

Any such criteria should not be prescribed by the Secretary of State alone. The relevant national authorities should determine the basis on which they will grant permission for use of the cultural emblem. Our intention is that permissions may be granted to relevant organisations to allow them to use the emblem in specific ways and in specific circumstances. Authorisation may also be given for certain educational purposes.

I do not need to say why this clause is important. The noble Lord has already accepted that it is and I hope he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, I fully understand the Minister’s desire that the Government should not be bound by an inflexible regime legislated to prevent them making sensible decisions and using their discretion appropriately. However, there has to be a policy. It would be helpful to the Committee if the noble Baroness would give at least some indication of what she anticipates the policy will be and the criteria that will be used to identify those items of our cultural heritage and cultural property that should be designated and have the blue shield applied to them. We are talking about listed buildings, great works of art, parks, gardens, monuments, archives? How will they be selected? Will it be according to the criteria that are already applied to identify those parts of our heritage that are the most important? On a point of detail, does she know the view of Historic England as to the appropriateness of painting the blue shield on top of grade 1 listed buildings?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

It would not be appropriate or helpful to publish criteria for the reasons I have already stated. We had some discussion at Second Reading about the process we were setting up and the areas that might be included. I shall look at this again, consult on it and perhaps have a cup of tea with the noble Lord and discuss it. It is not intended to put the criteria into the Bill. We have a process going forward and, as I explained in a previous intervention, it is important that the heritage bodies and so on should be comfortable with this, as I am sure the noble Lord agrees.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

I will be very happy to pay for the cup of tea. Will the Minister also undertake to write to Members of the Committee casting light on these issues?

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[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I will be happy to write to Members of the Committee setting out, first, what we have already said, and, secondly, answering any points and questions, including the points made by the noble Lord. That will be the easiest way to move this forward.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I was going to end with the point made by my noble friend Lord Howarth. This issue needs more explanation. I will be grateful to receive a letter, as the Minister suggested, and that will resolve the problems we have on this matter. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has raised a very important point about the resourcing of what I think is called the Arts and Antiques Unit of the Metropolitan Police. It is staffed by the most excellent people but with funding that is derisory. Perhaps the Minister will be able to tell us what the present state of affairs is, but not long ago that unit was actually obliged to raise its own money because no funding was forthcoming for it from the main budget of the Metropolitan Police, yet it is performing a crucially important role in terms of our policies to protect and to prevent the looting and violation of cultural property and ensure that the law is upheld. It is acting on behalf of the nation as a whole, so to say the least it is deeply regrettable that it has not been provided with adequate resources.

The Minister spoke vigorously about the need for good co-ordination between the MoD and the Metropolitan Police and appeared to accept the argument that the resourcing has to be adequate to enable the purposes of the policy to be fulfilled. It would be helpful if she is able to say something on this matter.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

There are a number of amendments here and I will try to deal with them in turn and answer the questions that have been raised. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, questioned whether a court should be able to order the destruction of an article bearing the cultural emblem unless it had been given permission by an expert. It is probably worth saying that the circumstances for destruction that I think this is intended to address is where the emblem is on items such as cards or T-shirts—it is not about destroying original cultural property. I agree that the court should not, in any event, order the destruction of articles unless it is clear that it is necessary and appropriate to do so. The current drafting only permits the court to make such an order as appears to it to be necessary.

We do not feel that it would be appropriate for expert evidence to give permission to the court to order the destruction of an article as that would mean that expert opinion would be allowed to override the views of the court. Of course, it is for the court to determine what to do with an article which is subject to forfeiture on the basis of relevant factors and evidence, which would include consideration of what was involved. That could, of course, include expert evidence but it would be for the court to decide that. I do not believe that the court would order the destruction of any article unless it was sure that it was necessary, but we believe that it is right for the court to have this option if it is the most appropriate means of upholding the authority of the cultural emblem, thus ensuring compliance with the convention. That is the background to that provision.

It has been suggested that a court could vary an order for forfeiture of cultural property in connection with a dealing offence only where it is a response to new evidence—this relates to Amendment 19. The potential reasons for a court varying provision under this section are not necessarily related to new evidence, so it would be inappropriate to limit the court’s discretion in this way. For example, the court may have made provision for the forfeited property to be retained at a specific site which was subsequently deemed to be no longer suitable for storage of that property.

On Amendment 22, which deals with compensation, it is of course right that those who, through no fault of their own, find themselves in possession of unlawfully exported cultural property should be compensated if the court orders their property to be forfeited so that it can be returned to its rightful owner. Paragraph 4 of the first protocol requires compensation to be paid by the state party whose obligation it was to prevent the unlawful export of cultural property from territory occupied by it. Which state that is will depend on the facts of each case. There is no obligation under the convention for anyone else to pay compensation, although in certain cases someone else may do so; for example, to ensure that the cultural property concerned can be forfeited before the forfeiture order lapses.

Ensuring that compensation is paid may require sensitive and potentially time-consuming negotiations between the United Kingdom and the occupying state. It would not be appropriate for the court to state who is responsible for the costs of compensation while negotiations are in progress. Indeed, that could put the success of those negotiations at risk. There is also a risk that forfeiture proceedings would become unnecessarily complicated and drawn out by arguments over who is responsible for paying compensation, with those states potentially responsible becoming involved in the proceedings. The noble Lord’s amendment risks complicating both the court proceedings and efforts to ensure that the occupying state pays the compensation that is due.

On Amendment 23, the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, raised the issue of police resourcing and the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, raised the question of storage. We would be happy to have discussions with the British Museum on this, but we do not expect the number of objects falling within the scope of the Bill to be an enormous burden for museums. However, the noble Lord has raised the point and I will consult them. I am already writing on the general issue of resourcing in relation to the Armed Forces and the police, so I will make sure that we cover the necessary ground.

On Amendment 23 and the requirement for the court to,

“make public the location and conditions of … storage”,

of cultural property, I agree that information about where an item of cultural property should be stored, and the conditions under which it is to be kept, should generally be available to the public. A court order is of course a matter of public record, and can normally be obtained by members of the public upon request, so there is no need for a separate provision allowing the court to make public any particular aspects. I should add that in some circumstances it may be necessary for a court to order that the location be kept secret if, for example, the cultural property in question is under particular threat. The general power contained in Clause 22(1) would enable a court to make such an order. We are satisfied that the current drafting of these provisions gives the appropriate courts full flexibility to make appropriate provisions and orders and to take account of the relevant circumstances. I hope that in those circumstances the noble Lord feels able to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am grateful to the Minister for that very full response although I do not think that all the questions raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, and my noble friend Lord Howarth were picked up. I was particularly struck by the sense that the Minister was only now beginning to have discussions with some of the major repositories for artefacts of this nature. Perhaps I interpreted that wrongly and I shall read Hansard to make sure that I have it right. I understand that we are not talking about huge volumes of material but we need to recognise the way the world is at the moment, and that this measure is moving us from a position of compliance but not statutory agreement to one whereby a statutory responsibility will be placed on a number of bodies in relation to the material being given to them through the court process, on which the noble Baroness made a good point. It could take years for some of the court systems to work through, and the subsequent storage and possible display of these materials will involve costs. I am a little unclear about where that cost element will fall. It may be small enough to fit into a normal budget but all these institutions are under pressure. There is never enough money to do all the things they want to do, and there will be an additional cost on them.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

Of course, this is difficult for the institutions but there has been a reasonable settlement for the museums and so on. We regard this issue as extremely important, as the noble Lord knows, and we will have a look at the scale involved. However, some of the work we already have in hand on cultural artefact storage in places such as the British Museum is world leading. We should be able to accommodate the cultural protection work in this Bill, but I will of course look at Hansard and come back if the need arises.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

Yes, my Lords, but the truth is that all these institutions suffered at least a 30% reduction under the previous Government and are now grateful not to have been cut further. In fact, some of them are on reduced money because they have received cash standstill grants. Therefore, although I hear what the Minister says, I do not think the situation is quite as rosy as she depicts. However, this is not the time and place to pick up this issue. If she is willing, it would be nice to have a cup of tea—perhaps involving me as well—and of course I will offer to pay.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

As the noble Lord knows, I am always happy to have cups of tea with him and they are usually extremely wide-ranging.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

I am a little worried that we are turning into the Tea Party movement here.

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[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I am looking forward to the Minister’s response to the main amendment in this group but I would like to touch on Amendment 30A. Here, we are back with our friends clarity, consistency and accuracy, and as the noble Baroness is also a Minister in the department for business, I am sure she will want to follow this one through carefully. There is some merit in trying to make sure that we replicate the position in other areas where criminal activity might follow from acts by a corporate body, and it will be interesting to hear what she has to say on that.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I am very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, for raising this issue and giving rise to this useful debate. I know he has extensive experience of the art insurance market and am grateful that he gave up time to take us through that and to try and find a way forward, because we are obviously keen, as I keep saying, to progress the Bill. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, for his comments.

I acknowledge the concern that the noble Earl raises that those who deal with cultural property, whether in museums, insurance companies or shipping companies, should understand what they must do in order to comply with the Bill and with the convention and its protocols. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, also asked how people are supposed to know that they are acting properly, and I will explain some of the things that will happen.

The Collections Trust, on behalf of Arts Council England, provides extensive guidance for museums, collectors, dealers and others on compliance with the legal requirements relating to cultural property, including on conducting due diligence to establish provenance and on related moral and ethical issues. There is a section on the Collections Trust website that references the 1954 Hague convention and its obligations. A wide range of other organisations also provide advice and guidance to their members and sectors on these issues.

These organisations are best placed to provide expert advice on how to go about determining whether an object is unlawfully exported cultural property. The Bill does not require those dealing with cultural property to do anything they do not already do. Conducting due diligence and determining the provenance of cultural property is an established part, I am glad to say, of what museums, collectors, dealers, insurers and others do in this country, which is of course one of the reasons we have great museums and a buoyant art market. The questions of whether cultural property was exported before or after a particular date and whether it was exported from an occupied territory are part of the broader and more basic question of whether it was lawfully exported at all. This is the key point on which anyone dealing with cultural property will want to satisfy themselves.

What would constitute “reasonable” procedures will vary from case to case depending on the particular circumstances, and it is difficult to issue one-size-fits-all regulations. This is true in other areas too, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, suggested. We will work with Arts Council England, the Collections Trust and other stakeholders to ensure that clear guidance is available and up to date, to help all those who deal with cultural property to understand and comply with the Bill. I will make sure that my department ensures that the information available in relation to the Bill including that on websites—as we have discussed, we now have to have things on websites in relation to every bit of legislation—fully reflects the requirements of the Bill.

Amendment 30A relates to Clause 29(3). Clause 29 is a standard clause which appears in numerous pieces of legislation and has been the subject of interpretation by the courts. For example, there is similar provision in the Dealing in Cultural Objects (Offences) Act 2003, and I would hesitate to amend this, for reasons of consistency. The intention of such a clause is to ensure that senior officers of a company who are personally involved in an offence can be held personally responsible and cannot escape liability by hiding behind the company.

I understand that the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, is concerned, as perhaps are others, as to whether “manager” might, in a large organisation, cover relatively junior employees in management roles. I am advised that this phrase has been considered by the courts, which have determined that “manager” refers only to those in a position of real authority as regards the company’s affairs and not to those merely responsible for day-to-day management of part of the business. It is therefore the most senior company officers who might be held liable under this clause. In any event, the key point to note is that liability will arise only if the individual has personally consented to or connived in the offence.

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[Lord Flight (Con)]

My Lords, I am curious to know what the minimum value envisaged is in the amendment from the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty. It seems to me that unless those minimums are fairly substantial—maybe a million but certainly in the hundreds of thousands—then it would make a complete shambles of the antique and flea market industry. People can know one generation of owner but they are never going to know the previous generation of owner. Therefore, a passport can operate only where it is clearly an item of substantial value and has had that value for some time.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, I would like to start by addressing Amendment 18. I thank the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, for the work that he does in this House as an advocate on behalf of the creative industries. Aided by his background as an artist and a writer, he provides a voice in the House for a community that contributes an awful lot to our cultural fabric.

I believe that auctioneers and traders have an important role to play in providing information about the history and background of the items that they sell. That allows the UK’s lawful—I hope—and vibrant marketplace for arts and antiquities to flourish and grow, as many have said.

I have some concerns about the amendment that the noble Earl has tabled with support from the noble Baronesses, Lady Bonham-Carter and Lady Northover, the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, and my noble friend Lord Renfrew. Perhaps I can explain why.

First, I continue to believe that it is appropriate to allow the art and antiquities trade to regulate itself. The established trade associations possess codes of ethics by which they expect their members to abide, and we expect the associations to strictly enforce those codes. The codes require that members undertake not to purchase, sell or offer any item of property that they know has been stolen, illegally exported or illegally excavated. Furthermore, we believe that the Dealing in Cultural Objects (Offences) Act 2003, along with the new offence that we are creating, provides a sufficient incentive for legitimate dealers to ensure that they do their due diligence and pass on relevant information concerning the provenance of an object.

The lack of prosecutions—although there has been one—does not mean that the Act has had no effect. It has had a successful deterrent effect, as was rightly noted by my noble friend Lord Inglewood.

I am determined to minimise costly bureaucracy for businesses unless there is a strong case for it being necessary. To my mind, this amendment would be disproportionate, considering that there are, and have been since 1956, very few occupied territories around the world. Thus the number of objects unlawfully exported from such territories is likely to be very low. Given the extremely limited scope of cultural objects that would be classed as unlawfully exported from occupied territory, a measure requiring the provision of detailed information with regard specifically to whether any item of cultural property for sale in the UK has been unlawfully exported from an occupied territory would not be proportionate. To have a statutory passport for items, as some have said, seems like a big burden. It could also, of course, further disadvantage London as a centre for the art and antiquities trade—that would be a perverse effect.

Secondly, I would like to touch on the human rights issue, which has not been given particular prominence. We are concerned that this amendment would infringe Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights because the collection and retention of the names and addresses of all previous owners would interfere with the right to respect for private and family life, home and correspondence. That cannot, in our opinion, be justified as necessary for achieving the aim of protecting cultural objects.

I turn finally to one of the amendment’s more specific points, which was obliquely referred to by my noble friend Lord Flight, who joined the debate. Monetary value is not an appropriate way of determining whether an object should be covered or not. Such objects may have a significant historical or emotional value for the communities from which they were removed, but not necessarily a high monetary value. That deals with our reservations about Amendment 18.

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[Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn]

Before the Minister sits down, will she clarify just one point? She made a very interesting remark, in that she thought that the amendment proposed by the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, might infringe the human rights of a former owner of an antiquity or cultural object. Will she clarify a little how she thinks that might be? Would it have infringed the rights of Lord Elgin that his ownership of the Elgin Marbles was clear or the rights of the Earl of Portland that the Portland Vase had been in his ownership? I am not quite clear how that works, and it certainly seems counter to the cause of transparency—which has been emphasised by the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and the noble Lord, Lord Howarth—which I think is very important in the antiquities trade. Part of transparency is ownership history, so this notion that it would damage the human rights of Lord Elgin or Lord Portland seems to me to be a very disturbing one.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I think the noble Lord is right; it is a bit of a puzzle. Of course, Lord Elgin and co were from a long time ago, before any of this legislation existed. Anyway, that is the advice that I have had—you do get these curiosities with human rights, which in general we support but sometimes create difficulties for us. Perhaps he would like to look at Hansard and see what I said, and I am sure we can discuss this further, if the noble Lord would find that helpful.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

My Lords, this has been an incredibly positive debate. At the beginning, I said the purpose of my amendment was to be a probing amendment to generate a debate, and that is what we have done. It may have been a bit provocative and, as my noble friend pointed out, may have gone a little too far, but the point I was trying to emphasise is that we need to look at this issue as a whole and, understanding that we have a suite of measures already in existence, our focus needs to be strongly on enforcement and that this includes making sure that these things do not even leave the country of their origin.

Transparency is an incredibly important issue. What is this trade afraid of? The motor industry is described as a bit dodgy and is said to have wide boys in it. If I am buying a car, I need to understand who owned it—and not just the previous owner, but where it started from, because it is a matter of safety. The art industry needs to reflect on the debate that we have had today, if it is to retain what has been quite effective self-regulation.

The noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, referred to how the trade operates and said that if measures were disproportionate and we imposed X, Y and Z, we would simply displace it or it would move underground. I suspect that that goes on anyway, but we have a moral obligation and duty to ensure that we do not collude with those illegal activities. However, in the light of the Minister’s comments, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 20 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Rosser and Lord Stevenson, on the basis that it is essential that the UK Border Force is properly trained and seen to be so. There are many different aspects to such training. One obvious thing to say about our borders is that looted property is not stopped. It is worth quoting on this Dick Ellis, the former director of the now much-mentioned Metropolitan Police’s art and antiques unit. He said earlier this year:

“These pieces are moving through customs, they’re moving through our ports all the time. And yet not a single item is seized in this country. At a time when … these sorts of objects when they’re looted in Syria, when they’re looted in Iraq, are helping to fund terrorism, why on earth aren’t we doing more to stop them coming on to the market?”.

This is a very good question. The public have a right to know whether and when looted property is stopped and held and what it is. Those data should be published.

Part of the practice of the UK Border Force must be to work closely with other agencies—communication between agencies was referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, and the noble Lord, Lord Howarth—as well as experts from universities and museums. That should be part of the code of practice. There should be training in the sensitive handling of objects, as referred to by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and a good understanding of what is at stake in terms of cultural property.

It is important that objects should not suffer because they have been illegally imported. We talked earlier about the possibility of destruction when objects are held. I have at the back of my mind what happened earlier this year in Miami as a result of the blanket ban that came into force last year in America on importing anything with ivory in it. British importers bringing objects to the art and antiques fair in Miami were forced to destroy antiques that were more than 200 years old because they contained small inlays of ivory. I do not know whether our Border Force destroys anything, but it needs a sophisticated understanding of the significance of cultural property if this or any other kind of conflict arises.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for his amendment. It is evident that many Members of the House are, rightly, interested in the role that Border Force and other enforcement agencies can play in the context of this Bill. His involvement shows how wide-ranging is this Bill and the need for joined-up government. I thank him for his pertinent questions, which I shall try to answer.

It is appropriate to clarify once again that the drafting changes made to Part 4 are necessary to reflect the transfer of responsibility from HMRC to Border Force between initial drafting of the Bill in 2008 and now. The substance and policy behind the Bill remain the same, and the wide breadth of support for it is much appreciated.

I can confirm that we foresee no additional costs as a result of moving cultural property under the Bill due to the low volume of unlawfully exported property from occupied territories. The impact assessment was published in good time, but it was not cleared by the RPC at that stage—the RPC is looking at it. I shall bear in mind the point made about business costs, which is what it is concerned with.

Border Force already has nationally published guidance available to all officers via the Border Force intranet site on “cultural goods”, and “cultural goods” are also listed in the Border Force operating mandate. Border Force will update these instructions when the new legislation comes into force to take account of the new powers and ways of working. Border Force staff are already dealing with such responsibilities through its enforcement of the 2003 Act and the Iraq and Syria sanctions.

I think that many would agree that it would be inappropriate to require the publication of guidance about Border Force’s “enforcement practices”. Enforcement practices relating to combating smuggling are often the same regardless of the type of goods. To place this information in the public domain has the potential to impede customs controls and even to jeopardise national security. Moreover, it is extremely difficult for Border Force officials to make a judgment as to the provenance of an object of cultural property at the border. Expert advice is likely to be required involving the Clause 17 offence, so it is unlikely that Border Force will spontaneously seize many objects as a result of this Bill. It seems more likely that its role in enforcing the Bill will be in assisting other law enforcement agencies.

Given the expertise required to identify cultural property unlawfully exported from occupied territories, we do not see Border Force playing a major role in discovering the objects, but in the rare event that an officer can clearly identify something as having been illegally exported from an occupied territory, or has been tipped off, powers of seizure under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 can be used.

This way of working to tackle illicit trade is well established in the UK and Border Force already works with partners. For example, it prevents the illegal trading of Iraqi and Syrian antiquities, including in the UK, through the implementation of UN and EU sanctions and the use of the International Council of Museums red lists, which have not been mentioned today, which classify the endangered categories of archaeological objects and works of art in the most vulnerable areas of the world.

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[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, although it is not grouped technically, perhaps I may take the Clause 28 stand part proposal with this amendment. The reason for this is that the amendment and the clause stand part Motion stem from a letter which was circulated to the Minister from the Select Committee on the Constitution. When we drafted the amendments we had not seen a response, but there has now been one. The response deals with the issues raised in Amendment 25 and Clause 28 and it may be more convenient for the Minister to deal with them together. I am getting panicked looks from the other side of the Dispatch Box so I am not sure whether it is. I am not sure whether the noble Earl, Lord Courtown, is giving a reassuring sign or a sign of defeat. However, we will continue with my plan to quickly introduce the two issues and hope that the points can be gathered and responded to together, which will save time later.

For those who are now confused about where we are on this matter, the Bill, in the sense and spirit of the convention, makes the treatment of any offence under the Act, as it will be, so serious that previous measures undertaken to protect this property, the Palace of Westminster, and the people who work here, would be vitiated. While that is right in some senses, some feel, particularly those who serve on the Select Committee on the Constitution, that it is a step too far and that further thought should be given to it.

I have now seen the response but I have not fully absorbed it because I got it only 10 minutes before the session started. The letter is from the Minister in response to the letter sent originally by the noble Lord, Lord Lang of Monkton, chair of the Select Committee on the Constitution. She seems to give positive and straightforward answers to the points raised by the Select Committee and it would be more appropriate for her to respond and give reassurance, if needed, to the Committee on this point. I beg to move.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I thank the noble Lord for the opportunity to discuss and make clear to the Chamber the concerns of the Constitution Committee. As he has said, I have written to the committee today and I am sorry that the need to take advice meant that the letter could not be sent earlier. The purpose of the search and seizure provision is to enable the UK to fulfil its international obligations in relation to cultural property that has been unlawfully exported from an occupied territory. In particular, it enables us to fulfil our obligation under the First Protocol to return such property to its country of origin. That obligation is absolute and does not allow for any exceptions. We therefore need to ensure that the police have the power to search for and seize unlawfully exported cultural property wherever it may be in the United Kingdom.

I consider it right in principle that the search and seizure powers in Clause 23 should apply equally to the Parliamentary Estate and this wonderful building and we consider that the drafting of the Bill allows for that. My department has been in contact with the relevant parliamentary authorities with regard to the search and seizure powers in the Bill, recognising parliamentary freedoms. Any search or seizure taking place within the Palace of Westminster would of course need to be exercised in a way that respects the privileges of our Parliament. In practice, we would expect there to be a high degree of co-operation between the police and the House authorities with regard to both the need to obtain a warrant at all and with the execution of any warrant obtained. I would also note that we expect the likelihood of any warrant being applied for to be incredibly low, based on the very small number of items of cultural property unlawfully exported from occupied territories that we expect to be entering the UK after this Bill is enacted. In short, we are in discussions with the House authorities to ensure that the privileges are observed and the convention implemented. I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment and agree to the clause.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I thank the noble Baroness for that reply and I think that the Committee will be reassured by what she has said. However, the fact that discussions are still ongoing suggests that this may be something she might wish to return to on Report.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I am happy to do that. The noble Lord will know that we brought the Bill forward on the day of the Queen’s Speech and I am afraid that we have rushed one or two things. Fortunately we have a number of stages still to go and we are in discussions with the House authorities in the appropriate way. I hope the Committee understands that our wish was to get on and was certainly not in any way not to do the right things by the House authorities.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

It would not be out of place to say that I am sure the Minister would not dare go against the noble Lord, Lord Lang of Monkton, who is very severe in these matters. However, with that assurance, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his questions. Clause 26 is necessary to cover a situation where cultural property has been seized in connection with the investigation or prosecution of an offence of dealing in unlawfully exported cultural property that is being held by someone other than a constable. This could be because the property has been transferred to a museum for safe keeping or because it was seized at a port or airport and is in the custody of Border Force. In practice this would allow for a delicate manuscript to be stored at a specialist facility such as the British Library for the duration of an investigation or prosecution, which seems a good idea.

The noble Lord asked whether there is to be a list of places where cultural property which has been seized under the provisions of the Bill can be stored. We do not propose to draw up a list because the decision on where a particular item of cultural property should be kept will be taken at the time of its seizure and with regard to the storage and conservation needs of the property and the availability of appropriate specialist facilities. We envisage that any costs will be absorbed by the organisation or institution that accepts cultural property for its safe keeping. In practice, we expect few objects to require expensive specialist conservation work and that the main costs will be for secure storage, which is something the police and our museums, galleries and archives already provide.

The noble Lord also asked whether stored cultural property will be available for display in British institutions. We consider that it would not usually be appropriate to put on public display cultural property that has been unlawfully exported. Where cultural property has been seized under the provisions of the Bill, it is because it is suspected of having been unlawfully exported from an occupied territory. Whether the property should be displayed would be a matter for the institution in question in consultation with interested parties and taking account of any relevant guidance and codes of practice. I remain a little open-minded on the point, but it would not usually be appropriate. The noble Lord kindly gave me notice of this question, and that is our view. I know the question was largely for clarification and I hope he will accept that the clause should stand part.

Clause 26 agreed.

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[The Earl of Clancarty]

My Lords, I support Amendment 28 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Collins. It is worth mentioning that UNESCO requests countries to fill in an extensive questionnaire every four years explaining how they are protecting their cultural property. There is a more general aspect: protection. The last questionnaire completed by Germany can be found online and includes, for example, what has been done to protect cultural property from flooding. It is all very well to say that you have done everything in your power to protect your cultural property from the effects of armed conflict, but if it has deteriorated or been harmed for other reasons, that rather negates the whole point of the exercise. Although military conflict can be devastating, most protection of cultural property takes place in peacetime, and that protection needs to be framed within this wider context.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, the obligation on states party to the convention to safeguard their own cultural property against the foreseeable effects of an armed conflict is obviously an important one. I have already agreed to update the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, on some of our plans more generally, which is probably relevant to this amendment as well. I should say, however, that we have concerns because the safeguarding requirements that are the subject of this amendment seem to relate to administrative arrangements rather than those covered by the Bill. I have already referred, in response to an earlier amendment, to the UNESCO report to which the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, referred with an interesting example of German good practice. We will be making that report every four years. The UK Government will already be reporting on the safeguarding of cultural property as a matter of good practice, in line with the reporting obligation in Article 26 of the convention, so it does not seem necessary to introduce a separate statutory obligation on this point.

We are already considering the administrative measures that will be needed to implement the convention once the Bill is passed into law and I will reflect, as I have said, on the issues raised during the passage of the Bill so far. In practice, there will be existing safeguarding measures in place for the majority of cultural property under general protection in the UK. Article 5 of the second protocol expands on the meaning of “safeguarding cultural property” by giving some examples of the kind of preparatory measures that should be taken in peacetime. These include: the preparation of inventories; the planning of emergency measures for protection against fire or structural collapse—presumably flooding would come under that broad heading—preparation for the removal of movable cultural property or provision for adequate in-situ protection of such property; and the designation of competent authorities responsible for the safeguarding of cultural property.

The early thinking is that the most appropriate body to undertake peacetime safeguarding measures is the existing owner, guardian or trustee of a cultural property. I hope that has given noble Lords some reassurance about safeguarding cultural property, both in relation to substance and process, and I ask them to withdraw their amendments.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I thank the Minister for her response. I think that covers most of the issues I have raised, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, I support my noble friend’s proposal that there should be a requirement for the Secretary of State to make periodic reports to Parliament on the work of the cultural protection fund in supporting the implementation of the Hague convention. I emphasise how much I applaud the Government for creating the cultural protection fund. It is an excellent initiative and greatly to their credit, particularly in this time of austerity. I particularly congratulate the Secretary of State, the right honourable John Whittingdale.

These are difficult times. All the same, we must recognise that a fund amounting to £30 million over four years is not a large amount of money. At Second Reading, the Minister explained that grants from the cultural protection fund would,

“support projects involved in cultural heritage protection; training and capacity building; and advocacy and education, primarily focused in the Middle East and north Africa”.—[Official Report, 6/6/16; col. 584.]

That is a lot of objectives to be funded out of a fairly limited sum of money. Therefore, while praising the Government, I ask them to do everything they can to ensure that the value of the fund is maintained, because these are difficult times in terms of public spending.

How is the British Council developing its expertise in these matters as I understand that this has not been an area of particular responsibility for it in the past and it will need to build up its strength? That leads me to ask what the role of the blue shield will be and whether the Government expect there to be a blue shield unit based in London. As we have noted in the past, this is a remarkable opportunity for Britain to lead internationally in this matter. It is very important in terms of heritage, upholding the Hague convention and our soft power objectives and diplomacy. I would be grateful if the Minister would respond to those questions.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

Noble Lords have rightly emphasised today that we need to be transparent and open about the cultural protection fund. It is absolutely right that this House has the opportunity to understand how the fund is supporting the work of cultural heritage protection at risk of, or already damaged by, conflict.

We established the £30 million fund in response to acts of cultural destruction and damage. I am pleased to say that the fund is now live and open for applications. It is always difficult, even in normal times, to make budgetary promises but I can say that we are very committed to this area, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, made some important points. We also monitor and report on the fund throughout its operation to ensure that it is successfully meeting the object of protecting cultural heritage affected by damage and destruction. In line with these general objectives, the Government will publish an annual report. Alongside this, the spend will be scrutinised and published by the OECD—all the more important an institution now given the way that things are going—on a biennial basis.

If the fund has any direct relevance to today’s legislation, we will make sure that that is included in the report. For example, there is an obligation in the second protocol to take measures in peacetime to safeguard cultural property. This may include activity such as the preparation of inventories which could potentially be awarded funding.

The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, asked about the central team in London and made wider points. I will pass her points on to the British Council. She was kind enough to refer to the letter that I wrote to the noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter. This covered some important points on Yemen, the cultural protection fund and its future, work with the British Council and the division of work on emergency response and long-term support. Given the lateness of the hour, I think the easiest thing I can do is to circulate copies to noble Lords so that they can see it, and make sure that a copy is in the Library of the House. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for cross-referencing that and delighted that it was found to be useful.

The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, asked about the British Council and its specialist assessors. I am sure he will be glad to know that it is currently collating a wide pool of specialist assessors who will be drawn upon to advise on specific projects. As well as this, sector experts will be drawn upon at intervals to sense check and advise on the general direction of the fund.

I see this cultural protection fund as a great opportunity. I think that it complements the Bill that we are putting forward. I hope that in the circumstances the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw this amendment.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

I thank the noble Baroness for that response. I did not realise that the hour was so late, but never mind. I was particularly trying to stress the amplification of the £30 million by ensuring that there is cross-departmental co-ordination and work, not just with the British Council. There is a lot of activity in conflict-affected zones which would certainly complement the work of this fund. I appreciate what the Government have done in terms of its establishment and note the noble Baroness’s comments. In the light of that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I rise simply to express the hope that the Bill speeds through rapidly, whatever else is happening around us, and that it is commenced as soon as possible. We have waited a very long time—since 1954—for this Bill to be put in place.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, I feel very well scrutinised today. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for her support in relation to the speedy passage of the Bill.

The Government recognise the importance of giving as much advance notice as possible of when new regulations and requirements will come into force, particularly where they have an effect on business, as has been said. Of course, common commencement dates are not defined in law, they are a matter of policy, and we are not aware of any precedent for referring to them in legislation. In order to refer to them in the Bill, a definition would need to be included. But our intention is to bring the provisions of the Bill into force as soon as possible after Royal Assent.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, knows that I share his passion for common commencement dates, and if we can bring the Bill in on a common commencement date we will of course do so, but we have to balance that with the need to get ahead and implement the convention and the protocols. As I see it, the sooner we are able to bring the provisions of the Bill into force, the sooner we will be able to ratify the convention and its protocols and ensure that cultural property has the protection it needs, which is provided for in the Bill, and hold our head up high in international institutions that are concerned with cultural property.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

Well, follow that. I think these aspirations are shared on all sides of the Committee and I am privileged to have played a part in making sure that—at last—we get this piece of legislation through. It has been a good exercise on all sides of the House to scrutinise but also to support the aspirations and aims we all have for this—for making this little piece of the jigsaw puzzle, which has eluded us for so long, now finally come to pass in a picture that we hope will paint more than 1,000 words.

The issue that we will be left with is how we deal with this on Report and at later stages. We need to think through how we will want to do that to help speed the Bill on its way. But we have promises of cups of tea ringing in our ears and I am sure that those will be at least part of the process. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.