Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
Main Page: Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Labour - Life peer)Cultural Property (Armed Conflicts) Bill [HL]
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
My Lords, it may be helpful and to the advantage of the Committee if I explained a couple of points before I get onto the meat of the amendment before us. First, we already have said on the record this is a Bill that we support and we will do what we can to ensure its swift passage through to the other place. However, that is not to be done at the expense of proper scrutiny of the issues which are raised here. We have a Bill that deals with very serious matters. It arises from unpleasant incidents and difficult issues that occurred in previous times of war. We are all in debt to those who worked in the previous Labour Administration and the current Government to bring forward the proposals that will finally allow this country to sign up to the Hague convention of 1955.
I have expressed my wish to make sure that we move forward as quickly as possible. Noble Lords may find that at variance with the fact that we have tabled some 30 amendments. However, the rationale for that is that, given that this very important document starts so long ago in history—in fact, it starts from a convention in Paris in 1907—we think that there are points at which it may be helpful for both this House and the wider world to understand what the Government’s current thinking is. The essence of the Bill is to bring into law drafting that took place some time ago. In putting down a number of amendments, covering most parts of the Bill, we are seeking not to detract from what is said in the Bill but to invite the Minister to respond in a way that will be helpful to those who have to interpret and implement the Bill when it is finally an Act and when we finally sign up to the convention.
The first amendment deals with the topic of culture, which is at the heart of much of what we do in daily life, even though it does not necessarily form much of our public discourse and debate—perhaps not as much as I would like. Nevertheless, as I mentioned, the history of the Second World War brought into sharp focus the problems that a lack of regard for culture in all its forms can have for those prosecuting, for good and persuasive reasons, the arts of war. The meat of this Bill is that it sets out a requirement on combatant countries engaged in warfare to provide, in advance of any action, a list of all the important cultural property that might be affected by that war. By implication, that implies that we in this country must do the same. We are talking here about identifying and bringing forward for consideration and use in difficult times of war the lists of very important cultural products and buildings that we think is incumbent on us and the other side to do. This is not an exercise that has been done to any great extent, although I think that most people could quite reasonably agree on a proper list for the United Kingdom, for instance.
My problem, and the reason why we wish to debate this under the first amendment today, is that the definition of “cultural property” that appears in Article 1 —in Schedule 1, which will become part of the Act, if the Bill is passed—is drafted in terms that may not be as effective in reaching out to those aspects of culture that we currently recognise. For example, the three main subheadings of Article 1 talk about “movable or immovable property”, about “buildings”, and about,
“centers containing a large amount of cultural property … to be known as ‘centers containing monuments’”.
There is nothing wrong with that, but I think that it would be helpful to allow a few moments to reflect on how things have moved on since 1955, in particular with moving image culture, in which I declare a previous interest as director of the British Film Institute. Within that, I would like to bring to the attention of the Committee the issue of film archives and recordings of television that are kept there, as well as the posters and ephemera that are collected.
Those items would not specifically be included in the lists that appear in Article 1, although most people would now regard them as cultural. Of course, every major country now has a film archive, and many of them also have television archives. They also record digital and other material—so we are not talking about a narrow issue but about an important part of our cultural life. Who could, these days, expect to understand, debate and discuss the culture of any country or time without having regard to the moving image? You have only to look at the way in which our younger generations look at YouTube and other sites to realise exactly how that world has changed.
This is not an attempt to change anything in the Bill, although I might wish to come back to the issue, in a later amendment, of how we might take this forward. It is a request to the Minister to look very carefully at Article 1 and explain to the Committee, as much as possible, how she reads it in terms of my points about the digital and cultural images which I would like to see protected.
As I said, this is not about wars in other places; we will also have to have regard to our own institutions. I might mention here not just the national film archive in Berkhamsted—where the main holdings are—and London but also regional film archives across England, the national film archives in Scotland, Wales and Ireland. These are important places in our own country which need to be protected. They need to be identified and listed and plans need to be put in place. We would hope that any combatant with whom we were involved, who was signed up to this convention, would also have similar lists which we would respect, through the procedures in the Bill. In those circumstances, I beg to move.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Neville-Rolfe)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for his welcome for the Bill, and for his constructive approach to scrutiny with a view to helping those who will have to implement and interpret it. To respond to the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, we will certainly take account of the points that have been made by Peers in considering this Bill as we come to implement it.
There is a concern that the Bill should enable appropriate protection of all forms of cultural property and that the definition of cultural property in the convention should be interpreted in a way which makes that possible. However, I have a few concerns about the proposed amendment.
First, we consider that the noble Lord’s amendment risks allowing the development of an interpretation of the definition in the United Kingdom which is not consistent with its internationally accepted interpretation. That would be undesirable. It would create uncertainty and inconsistency in the application of the convention and its protocols and could result in the UK failing to comply with its obligations under them. None of us wants that. The definition of cultural property set out in Article 1 is already wide ranging. The phrase,
“movable or immovable property of great importance to the cultural heritage of every people”,
is not limited, as has been said, to those things which are specifically mentioned. They are presented as examples of the sorts of cultural property which are protected by the convention. Other cultural property can also be protected under the convention if it is of great importance to the cultural heritage of every people. The definition is already sufficiently broad and flexible.
To answer the question from the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, we can accommodate rare and unique films and modern forms of cultural property such as digital material in the form of physical recordings.
The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, and my noble friend Lord Inglewood—who are both welcome to our proceedings and were certainly missed at Second Reading —are right. I was interested to hear the point about the knock-on effects for the 127 countries involved.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, rightly mentioned the BFI National Archive and we commend his work as a former director. The BFI could certainly be considered during our implementation process as the convention includes archives as an example of a building that could be considered to be cultural property and therefore protected under the convention. Indeed, it may even give me the opportunity to visit those splendid archives in the course of carrying our responsibilities forward.
I hope that that provides noble Lords with sufficient reassurance that the definition as drafted is necessary in order to meet our obligations under the convention but flexible enough to meet the concerns expressed about what sort of cultural property might be covered. I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I thank all noble Lords for contributing to this short debate. I take the points, which were well made. In response to my noble friend Lord Howarth, whose work on this Bill in its previous manifestation we acknowledge, I would point out that there are other definitions in current use in international agreements such as UNESCO agreements where the definition is markedly different, and it may be that that would be the kind of marker that we have in mind. If I gave the wrong impression I apologise, but I am certainly not going to take this amendment to the next stage and I will not raise it again. It has been tabled simply to provide a debate of the type that we have had.
My point was picked up by the Minister but perhaps I may press her a little on it. If she is saying that in respect of the British list she would certainly have consideration of the BFI National Archive and the associated archives in the UK high on her list, that is a sufficient illustration to make the point that although it could be worked into the current definitions, one has had enough experience of lawyers to know that sometimes those lists can trap you, so it is nice to have it set out in primary legislation. A statement from the Minister at this stage is very helpful, but as I hinted I have a clever plan up my sleeve which I may come back to. In the interim, however, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
The Earl of Clancarty
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for his support for this amendment and Roger O’Keefe, Professor of Public International Law, University College London, for his briefing. The issue here is one of clarity, consistency and accuracy. The term “violation” was adopted by the conference finalising the Second Protocol and my understanding is that this was done quite deliberately so that the terminology would be distinct from that used in the Geneva Convention: namely, the term “breach”. I appreciate that the legislation to ratify this convention around the world will be in different languages. However, it does seem logical that the terminology used in English ought to follow the terminology in English of the Hague Convention itself.
There are two additional problems. One is the inconsistent use of terminology. The word “breach” is used in the heading of Clause 3, which I cannot myself alter by an amendment, yet the term “violation” occurs in the text on page 2 at line 7, so both terms are used in the same clause, which is confusing. The more serious issue is that “violation” in the text is not referred to here as “serious violation”, although “serious breach” is used in the heading, which would distinguish this kind of violation in Article 15 of the Second Protocol from the so-called “other violations” in Article 21. This is important because it is a question of the order of violation referred to. It needs to be changed.
As the Minister herself said at Second Reading, the meaning of “breach” and “violation” is the same. But this is not the point. The issue here is one of consistency and accuracy of use. At the moment it is perhaps a little too sloppy. The 2008 draft Bill used the same terminology as the current Bill, so the Government have inherited it. Will the Minister look at this closely to see if these changes can be made? I beg to move.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I rise briefly to support the amendment proposed by the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty. He said that it was aimed at clarity, consistency and accuracy, and I can add no more to that. This is an issue where the Minister may be able to help us further. The substance of the amendment is to make sure that we do not unwittingly create any uncertainty.
“(a) aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring the commission of that offence,(b) inciting a person to commit that offence,(c) attempting or conspiring to commit that offence, or(d) an offence under section 4(1) or 5(1) of the Criminal Law Act 1967 (assisting an offender or concealing the commission of an offence) where the relevant offence mentioned there is an offence under section 3 of this Act.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, the two amendments in this group are in the same vein as the one we have just discussed; they seek clarity, consistency and accuracy. The Bill is very specific in many areas to do with how the law is to be adapted to accommodate the convention, but curiously allows for a variation in Scotland and Northern Ireland in the criminal liabilities that occur. We have no reason to suppose that these are in any sense defective, but the Bill should be the best possible and as clear and consistent as possible, so might this be an opportunity for the Minister to respond, explaining why there is a difference or, if there is an unintended difference, how that could be remedied? I beg to move.
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, I raised this matter at Second Reading. The issue of inchoate offences is very important, particularly in this context. It sends the criminal law much further down, into preparatory acts. In these situations you often have a group of people acting—passing on information to buyers, et cetera. You often need to scoop quite a large number of people, so I would be grateful for confirmation from the Minister, because the inchoate offences in this context are an incredibly important part of stamping down all activity in relation to this illegal trade.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, in addressing these two amendments I hope to satisfy noble Lords, but if I do not we should speak between now and Report. I appreciate that the aim of the amendments is to ensure that the Bill allows the UK to meet all our obligations under the convention and its two protocols. Clause 4, as currently drafted, already allows the UK to meet its obligations under Article 15(2) of the Second Protocol and the legislation will comply with,
“general principles of law and international law”.
I will outline my main points now, although, given that this is a technical and complicated issue to explain briefly, I will reflect on what has been asked and send noble Lords a note setting out the Government’s position on this amendment.
The purpose and effect of Clause 4 are to ensure that the UK has extraterritorial jurisdiction to try all ancillary offences in the same circumstances in which Clause 3 establishes such jurisdiction to try the substantive offences. It does not establish the ancillary offences, which already exist under at least five different and relevant pieces of legislation. The good news is that these apply automatically to offences under Clause 3. In respect of England and Wales and Northern Ireland, the definitions of,
“An offence ancillary to an offence under section 3”,
are limited to the offences of attempting, conspiring, assisting and concealing, because it is only in relation to these offences that there might be doubt as to their extraterritorial application.
Where the existing law is clear as to extraterritorial application—which it is in relation to aiding and abetting and the offences under the Serious Crime Act 2007, which replaced the previous offence of incitement—no provision is made. However, as noble Lords will appreciate, to make such provision unnecessarily would be bad drafting practice and could create doubt as to the other situations where no such express provision is made.
The position in relation to Scottish criminal law is different and this is taken into account in the drafting of Clause 4(6). I assure noble Lords that the Scottish Government have, of course, been consulted on this provision.
I hope that brief explanation, together with the note that I am planning to send to noble Lords, will provide sufficient explanation and reassurance that we have taken the correct approach on ancillary offences, and that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I thank the Minister for that response and for the offer to write to us with more detail. I hope she will be able to respond in more detail than I can in terms of endorsing the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, which I think took a slightly deeper cut through some of these issues than did my amendment but are still very important. I am sure the Minister will want to ensure that her noble friend is properly responded to.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
Of course, I should have said that I will ensure that we look very carefully at my noble friend’s points, and the same letter will set out the detail of the proposals. Looking at these amendments and the consequential provisions, I was struck by how complex this all was. I had some of the questions that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, raised, so please let me set it all out and I hope everybody will be satisfied and we can move forward.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
Obviously, I should just keep sitting down and the noble Baroness will give us more and more. A deluge of Keeling schedule after Keeling schedule will arrive and more and more of these extraordinary areas will be explored. I am sure that we will find the right balance here. We do not wish to overload either ourselves or the civil servants, who I am sure have quite enough on their plate with other things. It would be helpful to pick out the particularity of the point made by the Minister’s noble friend but not lose the way in which the original formulations of the legislation come together to create offences that will be appropriate under this legislation. I am probably asking for the impossible but I think we both agree that the measure is not entirely clear as it stands, partly because, in seeking to minimise the amount of legislation, we are not seeing the whole picture, so if that could be brought forward, that would be helpful. We will return to this point as it comes up at later stages but in the meantime I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Redesdale
My Lords, while I almost support the theory behind these amendments, we might have difficulty with a couple of issues. I should say first that the attitude taken by the British Armed Forces in protecting cultural objects has been exemplary, especially recently in the targeting of Libya and the specific direction not to destroy archaeological sites.
However, there is an issue in relation to our troops being directed by other forces. In 2003, I went over to Qatar to talk to CENTCOM about the bombing that was being carried out by American forces. People there thought it was a particularly good day when I talked to them because they had convinced the American air force that not dropping ordnance during sandstorms and instead waiting until they could see the ground would be a good idea. There is the issue of how, if you are involved in a joint operation and under the command of others, you influence that commander, or whether you would even be able to.
Of course, this becomes a particular issue when fighting the types of warfare that are being fought now, whereby most of the information used for targeting enemy forces comes through drones and indirect forces. That process has to be based on information. I follow the point that of course we need information and expertise within the MoD to understand what sites can be used, because the real issue of Daesh funding its operations through the sale of antiquities means that, given the MoD’s primary duty of denying the enemy sustenance and funding, it needs to understand the implications of the looting of certain sites and the financial implications for the forces they are fighting.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I will speak briefly to the Clause 6 stand part debate, which is included in this group of amendments. The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, has raised a number of the points that I was going to raise, and I will not repeat them. I simply make three short points. I think this is the first time we have reached a point in the Bill where any amendment that might be put down would not interfere with our ability to sign up to the convention. This is an area where, for instance, the tariff of 30 years is not specified, so it would be at the discretion of the Government, should they wish to change that.
The points made by the noble Baroness were germane to this. We touched on this on Second Reading, and although 30 years was said to be appropriate for the maximum because it was in line with other areas, we are talking about a very narrow range of people who could be affected here: those who are under orders, or supposedly under orders, operating in a foreign territory with which we are at war. There may be circumstances that need a more considered view in the legislation, but we do not have a very strong view on this; as my noble friend Lord Touhig said, we are broadly in support of what is here, but this is an opportunity to make sure that we have the right approach as set out by the Minister when she comes to respond.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I thank noble Lords for tabling these important amendments and the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, for his helpful explanation. It is good to welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, to our consideration. As she said, she brings her experience as a DfID Minister, with whom I was happy to serve.
I will say by way of introduction that it is absolutely right that government departments, including of course the Ministry of Defence, and the Armed Forces work closely together in bringing this Bill through to implementation to make sure that they understand the obligations that ratification of the convention will place on them. I hope we were all reassured on Second Reading when I explained that both the MoD and the Armed Forces were fully supportive of the Bill—I repeat that for those of your Lordships who missed Second Reading—and that all our Armed Forces already act as if bound by the convention and both protocols, but the legislation and its implementing provisions are extremely important.
The Joint Service Manual of the Law of Armed Conflict is already updated periodically by military lawyers, who will ensure that the necessary rules, regulations, legislation and advice regarding the Hague convention and its two protocols are fully reflected in the manual once ratification has taken place. I do not believe it is necessary to place a legal requirement, as Amendment 5 seeks to do, on the Secretary of State to ensure that this happens.
Turning to Amendment 6, command appointments within our Armed Forces change regularly, so laying a list before Parliament of all ranking military commanders who are responsible for a Section 3 offence committed by forces under their effective command would quickly require updating or become obsolete. Commanders are responsible for ensuring compliance of their forces and forces under their control with a wide range of national and international legislation. Singling out the Hague convention as the only piece of domestic or international legislation where such a list is required could set an unhelpful precedent.
I turn to Amendments 7 and 8, concerning the proposed new clauses on embedded forces and private military contractors. I think that their intended effect is already covered in the Bill and I have concerns about potential unintended consequences if we were to make the amendments. First, the Armed Forces Act 2006 provides that regular members of the Armed Forces remain subject to UK service law at all times. This includes times when they are under the command of another country. Embedded personnel would therefore still be within the definition in Clause 3 (6) of,
“person subject to UK service jurisdiction”,
and the Bill would apply to them in the same way as if they remained under UK command.
The noble Lords, Lord Touhig and Lord Howarth, talked about private military contractors. Such contractors and their individual staff are also already covered by the Bill and will be criminally liable in the same way as any other legal or natural person. For example, should an employee of a private military contractor who is a UK national or subject to UK service jurisdiction commit an act abroad of a kind described in Article 15(1)(d) or (e) of the Second Protocol, they could be criminally liable under Clause 3 on the same basis as any other person—so I think they are covered.
“(c) in Scotland, only by the Lord Advocate for Scotland.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, we are back in Scotland. In several parts of the Bill we find very detailed requirements placed on the authorities in England and Wales and sometimes in Northern Ireland, but Scotland appears to have eluded us. I wondered therefore if it would be helpful to put down an amendment that asked for a bit more clarity about why this is the case. I fully expect there to be a perfectly reasonable explanation, but it would be good to have it on the record.
There is a wider question regarding Clause 7, which is why in this group we also have Clause 7 stand part: why is it considered necessary in the Bill to require the Attorney-General, whether this applies just to England and Wales and Northern Ireland or also includes Scotland, to give consent to proceedings? Either these offences are grievous enough to attract substantial tariffs of up to 30 years or they are not and need leave to proceed, which is a slightly uncomfortable situation. In either case, it would be appropriate if the Minister responded. I beg to move.
Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)
My Lords, I will speak briefly to Amendment 10 which, with great respect, is based on a misunderstanding of the prosecution system in Scotland. Unlike the system in England and Northern Ireland, all prosecutions in Scotland are brought under the authority of the Lord Advocate—every prosecution in every court is under his authority—so it has never been practice in statutes for an amendment of this kind to be inserted, as the word “only” would contradict the idea that every prosecution is brought under that system. Therefore, no statutory authority is needed. I entirely sympathise with the view that it would be interesting to see more mention of Scotland and that the Scottish position has been considered, but the best way of considering the Scottish position is in fact for the amendment not to be pressed, on the understanding that it is not needed in that country.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I am very grateful to my kinsman, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, for reminding me that I should start at home more often and think harder about some of the issues that arise in Scotland. Being Scottish, having a Scottish title and being unaware of these issues places me in a very embarrassing situation, and I humbly crave the indulgence of your Lordships on this point. However, it was quite an interesting debate.
Like the noble Lord who spoke immediately after the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, I am still a bit confused about why the clause is drafted as it is. I understood from the noble and learned Earl—I am sorry, the noble Earl; he is not learned yet but I am sure that will come in the fullness of time—that we are talking here about preventing inappropriate, rather than authorising appropriate, prosecutions. We will read carefully in Hansard what he said and perhaps we can discuss this matter outside the Committee. I still think that there is a slight question over why this clause needs to be drafted as it is, although I now understand the intent better than I did. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Conflicts not of an international character
The Secretary of State must, within one year of the passing of this Act, prepare and publish a report on the steps taken by the Government to ensure the effective implementation of Article 19 of the Convention (conflicts not of an international character).”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, the situation that we are dealing with in this Bill is obviously extremely grave and very important, and it is something on which we need to move forward. However, as we have already touched on a number of times in our debates, it deals with matters affecting officially declared wars but it does not deal with some of the conflicts that people automatically assume it should, including the conflicts that we are currently witnessing in Syria and some other places. This amendment is an attempt to suggest that, as soon as the Bill comes into force, there ought to be a move to think about how one might take forward measures that would apply to conflicts or perhaps terrorist activity which do not necessarily fulfil the criteria of a war.
I understand that this legislation is a major step forward and in no sense do I wish to suggest that the Bill should be amended in a way that would make it difficult for the Government to go forward with ratification. However, as I hinted earlier, the amendment is part of a slightly broader cunning plan. This important but limited Bill looks back to 1955 but does not look forward to conflicts that are to come. Therefore, as a response to those who have concerns in this area, I wonder whether we should consider—possibly at some future date; we do not necessarily need to set a time limit, although the amendment would do that—a third protocol. It could include measures such as ensuring that Article 19 of the convention, which concerns conflicts not of an international character, are dealt with, and how we deal with the question, which has previously been raised and discussed, of what a modern definition of culture or cultural products should be, as well as other matters that might come up either now or by the time we get to the end of the Bill.
In a sense, I have tabled this amendment in order to promote a debate about why we would be satisfied—although I am sure we are not—with limiting the impact of the Bill to wars. The aspiration, contained in the convention but not really realised, that more effort should be made to step up to the plate on issues around conflicts which do not yet have official war status should be something that we commit to in order to make this measure go forward. I beg to move.
Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn (Con)
My Lords, this amendment has a great deal to commend it. As the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, has indicated, its intention is not to disrupt the nature of the Bill or to introduce matters that would disrupt its passage or expand it in a way that would unilaterally broaden what it is an international convention. The amendment seems to find a middle way. It proposes an addition to the Bill that would not in any way disrupt the definitions as they apply but would meet the concern many people have that the outrages that have concerned us most in recent years—the events in Palmyra, the damage to the Winged Bull at Nineveh and the events in the museum in Mosul—are not in fact covered by the Bill, as the noble Baroness confirmed at Second Reading. It is fair to say that she did not give a very detailed analysis of the situation in response, but it is not covered by the Bill.
The nature of warfare perhaps has changed, but the point is that Daesh, or ISIL, is not recognised as a state, and that is why this is not an international phenomenon. As the situation is regarded as being an internal insurrection or civil war, it does not fall within the scope of the Bill directly. Therefore, it is a very helpful suggestion that we should acknowledge the—I will not say “defect” of the Bill, although I regard it as such—limitation of the Bill, without in any way disrupting its passage now or impinging on its application.
Everybody in the House is very keen to see this. It was originally a convention of 1954 and it is time it is passed by the House with the two recent protocols. The ingenious suggestion of a third protocol, which is not being proposed now—we are not delaying the Bill in any way but it could be an agenda for the future—is a very helpful one that should be taken very seriously.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I am sorry that the Minister did not feel more enthused by the opportunity to do at least something in future on an international stage that will be bereft of European activities. She will surely have many gaps in her diary, since she is a doughty warrior in the European space—and here we are offering her on a gold plate a wonderful opportunity to make her name in cultural matters. I am, however, very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Renfrew, for his support and the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, for understanding the reasons behind the amendment. I still think that it is a good idea. My noble friend Lord Howarth agreed with it, although the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, sees problems wherever he sees words that might be used to delay his precious involvement in the Bill. I keep assuring him that we are not out to stop the Bill, but we would like to improve it, which is what lay behind the amendment. Reading too carefully the words on the Marshalled List would reveal that we had a bit of a struggle with the clerks to get anything in the amendment, and of course the noble Lord is right that it would not do what it sets out to do, but nor was it intended to—which is rather a bad thing to say. What we are trying to get at is that there is an agenda here. If we are to do this, let us do it properly and pick up some of the points that we understand to be defective in terms of full implementation of what we all want. If there is a way to do that at some future date, we perhaps should do it. In the interim, the point has been made and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) Where cultural property is in a digital form the cultural emblem may be displayed in a digital format.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I might need to ask for a short break shortly to get my papers in order. This amendment is the pretty one. The Bill contains a diagram, which is unusual in parliamentary drafting. We do not often get to look at the symmetry and angles with which the rather crude representation of the emblem appears in Clause 3 in Part 8. If your Lordships have not seen it, I draw your attention to it, because we are now talking about culture. It helpfully has a key, which says that it is white and royal blue; it looks black to me but let us not worry too much about that. The point is that it has been used and has been found to be effective in its impact. I think the best-known example of its use was in the recent Iraq conflict, where the emblem was painted on top of the museum. That certainly saved it from being bombed but unfortunately it seemed—I am not sure whether this is true, but it is certainly a good story—to alert those people who had not perhaps known that it contained valuable artefacts to the fact that it was a storehouse of things they could loot, things which have subsequently been brought through to the international market. So it does not always work.
However, it is obviously a feature of the convention and we do not oppose it. Our amendment simply reflects on the way in which the emblem is restricted in its use—which is dealt with in the protocols and regulations. Again, a set of phrases is used that is redolent of the 1950s in terms of sticky paper, etching and watermarking, but there is no sense of how it might need to be applied in the digital age. It is a probing amendment, as all my other amendments are, to draw attention to the need to think about how we might update and improve the requirements and to give the Minister an opportunity perhaps to make a few points on how the emblem would be used in future. I beg to move.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I thank the noble Lord for his comments. It is indeed delightful and unusual to have a cultural emblem on the face of legislation—I think I am not meant to flash legislation in the House, but I am delighted. On a lighter note, I was also delighted to see that Professor Peter Stone had a badge showing the emblem when he came to see me today. I am slightly worried that he might not be able to continue to use the badge, which shows him as a supporter, but I hope we can ensure that is not the case, because it is totemic and important. I am also grateful for the opportunity to clarify the circumstances in which digital material could be protected, although we have touched on it already.
Relatively modern types of cultural property such as film or recorded music could indeed be covered by the definition of “cultural property”. In practice, this would be in the form of physical recordings and storage, even if the film or music was digital. We would expect the emblem to be displayed on the physical object containing the recording or digital data.
The regulations to the convention provide that the emblem may be represented in any appropriate form. That gives full flexibility on how it can be displayed, which may be valuable. As has been said, this was evidenced when the blue shield was painted on the roof of the National Museum of Iraq to protect the building from air strikes. Therefore, there is nothing to preclude the emblem being displayed in digital form; for example, on a screen or by projection.
Ensuring the authorised use of the cultural emblem is especially important given that the blue shield has been said to be the cultural equivalent of the Red Cross. I certainly see it that way. This might be a good point at which to welcome the work done by Michael Meyer, the head of international law at the British Red Cross, who is, and remains, a champion of work in this field and a strong advocate of the Bill.
On introducing a statutory requirement to publish criteria on permission for use the blue shield, this would create inflexibility when flexibility and rapid reaction are most needed. Of course, techniques change.
Any such criteria should not be prescribed by the Secretary of State alone. The relevant national authorities should determine the basis on which they will grant permission for use of the cultural emblem. Our intention is that permissions may be granted to relevant organisations to allow them to use the emblem in specific ways and in specific circumstances. Authorisation may also be given for certain educational purposes.
I do not need to say why this clause is important. The noble Lord has already accepted that it is and I hope he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I will be happy to write to Members of the Committee setting out, first, what we have already said, and, secondly, answering any points and questions, including the points made by the noble Lord. That will be the easiest way to move this forward.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I was going to end with the point made by my noble friend Lord Howarth. This issue needs more explanation. I will be grateful to receive a letter, as the Minister suggested, and that will resolve the problems we have on this matter. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) The court may not order the destruction of an article unless expert evidence has been presented to the court giving permission to do so.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, we now move away from emblematic conventions to the realpolitik of this, which is dealing with artefacts that are seized and the criminal practices that might follow. There is also the question of what happens to the artefacts themselves. Clause 14 specifies what happens if a person is convicted of an offence under Clause 9 by using a design on an article which was not authorised and was not appropriate. It moves on quickly to forfeiture, but one step away from that is the disposal or destruction of the artefact. Disposal one can probably understand, but destruction is always a slight worry. When going through the Bill we considered that we ought to raise this as an issue and ask the Minister to explain the circumstances in which she envisaged that Clause 14(3) might arise. Our suggestion is that a rider could be added that expert advice should be sought, or provision for that made in the Bill, so that full consideration of the ramifications of destruction are taken into account. We have heard already from the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, of worries and concerns about the destruction of valuable material and we do not want to encourage that as the process which is followed. I beg to move.
Baroness Berridge
My Lords, this also brings into view an issue raised at Second Reading. Many of these articles, when they are the subject of legal proceedings or they are seized by the police prior to forfeiture, are then stored for months if not years. It is not at all clear that the Metropolitan Police has the necessary funding or facilities barring an evidence room in which to store what obviously can be items of cultural heritage. It is important that my noble friend the Minister should outline whether under cultural protection funds an agreement will be made with the British Museum that certain of these artefacts need to be stored very carefully. This is not like storing the evidence from crime scenes and we need to be assured on this point.
We may end up in situations where, at the end of lengthy court proceedings, we discover that the cultural artefacts have been stored in conditions that have caused them to deteriorate during the course of those proceedings. There seems to be ample funding in place, so perhaps the Minister could write to the British Museum to see how it could help the Metropolitan Police to ensure that items which are not forfeited or destroyed are not left in a condition that causes them to deteriorate. Funding and a simple arrangement could be made to preserve items during court proceedings, a point which as I say was raised at Second Reading.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
There are a number of amendments here and I will try to deal with them in turn and answer the questions that have been raised. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, questioned whether a court should be able to order the destruction of an article bearing the cultural emblem unless it had been given permission by an expert. It is probably worth saying that the circumstances for destruction that I think this is intended to address is where the emblem is on items such as cards or T-shirts—it is not about destroying original cultural property. I agree that the court should not, in any event, order the destruction of articles unless it is clear that it is necessary and appropriate to do so. The current drafting only permits the court to make such an order as appears to it to be necessary.
We do not feel that it would be appropriate for expert evidence to give permission to the court to order the destruction of an article as that would mean that expert opinion would be allowed to override the views of the court. Of course, it is for the court to determine what to do with an article which is subject to forfeiture on the basis of relevant factors and evidence, which would include consideration of what was involved. That could, of course, include expert evidence but it would be for the court to decide that. I do not believe that the court would order the destruction of any article unless it was sure that it was necessary, but we believe that it is right for the court to have this option if it is the most appropriate means of upholding the authority of the cultural emblem, thus ensuring compliance with the convention. That is the background to that provision.
It has been suggested that a court could vary an order for forfeiture of cultural property in connection with a dealing offence only where it is a response to new evidence—this relates to Amendment 19. The potential reasons for a court varying provision under this section are not necessarily related to new evidence, so it would be inappropriate to limit the court’s discretion in this way. For example, the court may have made provision for the forfeited property to be retained at a specific site which was subsequently deemed to be no longer suitable for storage of that property.
On Amendment 22, which deals with compensation, it is of course right that those who, through no fault of their own, find themselves in possession of unlawfully exported cultural property should be compensated if the court orders their property to be forfeited so that it can be returned to its rightful owner. Paragraph 4 of the first protocol requires compensation to be paid by the state party whose obligation it was to prevent the unlawful export of cultural property from territory occupied by it. Which state that is will depend on the facts of each case. There is no obligation under the convention for anyone else to pay compensation, although in certain cases someone else may do so; for example, to ensure that the cultural property concerned can be forfeited before the forfeiture order lapses.
Ensuring that compensation is paid may require sensitive and potentially time-consuming negotiations between the United Kingdom and the occupying state. It would not be appropriate for the court to state who is responsible for the costs of compensation while negotiations are in progress. Indeed, that could put the success of those negotiations at risk. There is also a risk that forfeiture proceedings would become unnecessarily complicated and drawn out by arguments over who is responsible for paying compensation, with those states potentially responsible becoming involved in the proceedings. The noble Lord’s amendment risks complicating both the court proceedings and efforts to ensure that the occupying state pays the compensation that is due.
On Amendment 23, the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, raised the issue of police resourcing and the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, raised the question of storage. We would be happy to have discussions with the British Museum on this, but we do not expect the number of objects falling within the scope of the Bill to be an enormous burden for museums. However, the noble Lord has raised the point and I will consult them. I am already writing on the general issue of resourcing in relation to the Armed Forces and the police, so I will make sure that we cover the necessary ground.
On Amendment 23 and the requirement for the court to,
“make public the location and conditions of … storage”,
of cultural property, I agree that information about where an item of cultural property should be stored, and the conditions under which it is to be kept, should generally be available to the public. A court order is of course a matter of public record, and can normally be obtained by members of the public upon request, so there is no need for a separate provision allowing the court to make public any particular aspects. I should add that in some circumstances it may be necessary for a court to order that the location be kept secret if, for example, the cultural property in question is under particular threat. The general power contained in Clause 22(1) would enable a court to make such an order. We are satisfied that the current drafting of these provisions gives the appropriate courts full flexibility to make appropriate provisions and orders and to take account of the relevant circumstances. I hope that in those circumstances the noble Lord feels able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I am grateful to the Minister for that very full response although I do not think that all the questions raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, and my noble friend Lord Howarth were picked up. I was particularly struck by the sense that the Minister was only now beginning to have discussions with some of the major repositories for artefacts of this nature. Perhaps I interpreted that wrongly and I shall read Hansard to make sure that I have it right. I understand that we are not talking about huge volumes of material but we need to recognise the way the world is at the moment, and that this measure is moving us from a position of compliance but not statutory agreement to one whereby a statutory responsibility will be placed on a number of bodies in relation to the material being given to them through the court process, on which the noble Baroness made a good point. It could take years for some of the court systems to work through, and the subsequent storage and possible display of these materials will involve costs. I am a little unclear about where that cost element will fall. It may be small enough to fit into a normal budget but all these institutions are under pressure. There is never enough money to do all the things they want to do, and there will be an additional cost on them.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
Of course, this is difficult for the institutions but there has been a reasonable settlement for the museums and so on. We regard this issue as extremely important, as the noble Lord knows, and we will have a look at the scale involved. However, some of the work we already have in hand on cultural artefact storage in places such as the British Museum is world leading. We should be able to accommodate the cultural protection work in this Bill, but I will of course look at Hansard and come back if the need arises.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
Yes, my Lords, but the truth is that all these institutions suffered at least a 30% reduction under the previous Government and are now grateful not to have been cut further. In fact, some of them are on reduced money because they have received cash standstill grants. Therefore, although I hear what the Minister says, I do not think the situation is quite as rosy as she depicts. However, this is not the time and place to pick up this issue. If she is willing, it would be nice to have a cup of tea—perhaps involving me as well—and of course I will offer to pay.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
As the noble Lord knows, I am always happy to have cups of tea with him and they are usually extremely wide-ranging.
Lord Howarth of Newport
I am a little worried that we are turning into the Tea Party movement here.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
We live in cultural times. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
The Earl of Clancarty
My Lords, I, too, am sympathetic to the concerns of the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, but can we compare notes with or learn from other European countries such as Germany, which has important museums and has operated the second protocol since 2004?
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I am looking forward to the Minister’s response to the main amendment in this group but I would like to touch on Amendment 30A. Here, we are back with our friends clarity, consistency and accuracy, and as the noble Baroness is also a Minister in the department for business, I am sure she will want to follow this one through carefully. There is some merit in trying to make sure that we replicate the position in other areas where criminal activity might follow from acts by a corporate body, and it will be interesting to hear what she has to say on that.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I am very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, for raising this issue and giving rise to this useful debate. I know he has extensive experience of the art insurance market and am grateful that he gave up time to take us through that and to try and find a way forward, because we are obviously keen, as I keep saying, to progress the Bill. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, for his comments.
I acknowledge the concern that the noble Earl raises that those who deal with cultural property, whether in museums, insurance companies or shipping companies, should understand what they must do in order to comply with the Bill and with the convention and its protocols. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, also asked how people are supposed to know that they are acting properly, and I will explain some of the things that will happen.
The Collections Trust, on behalf of Arts Council England, provides extensive guidance for museums, collectors, dealers and others on compliance with the legal requirements relating to cultural property, including on conducting due diligence to establish provenance and on related moral and ethical issues. There is a section on the Collections Trust website that references the 1954 Hague convention and its obligations. A wide range of other organisations also provide advice and guidance to their members and sectors on these issues.
These organisations are best placed to provide expert advice on how to go about determining whether an object is unlawfully exported cultural property. The Bill does not require those dealing with cultural property to do anything they do not already do. Conducting due diligence and determining the provenance of cultural property is an established part, I am glad to say, of what museums, collectors, dealers, insurers and others do in this country, which is of course one of the reasons we have great museums and a buoyant art market. The questions of whether cultural property was exported before or after a particular date and whether it was exported from an occupied territory are part of the broader and more basic question of whether it was lawfully exported at all. This is the key point on which anyone dealing with cultural property will want to satisfy themselves.
What would constitute “reasonable” procedures will vary from case to case depending on the particular circumstances, and it is difficult to issue one-size-fits-all regulations. This is true in other areas too, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, suggested. We will work with Arts Council England, the Collections Trust and other stakeholders to ensure that clear guidance is available and up to date, to help all those who deal with cultural property to understand and comply with the Bill. I will make sure that my department ensures that the information available in relation to the Bill including that on websites—as we have discussed, we now have to have things on websites in relation to every bit of legislation—fully reflects the requirements of the Bill.
Amendment 30A relates to Clause 29(3). Clause 29 is a standard clause which appears in numerous pieces of legislation and has been the subject of interpretation by the courts. For example, there is similar provision in the Dealing in Cultural Objects (Offences) Act 2003, and I would hesitate to amend this, for reasons of consistency. The intention of such a clause is to ensure that senior officers of a company who are personally involved in an offence can be held personally responsible and cannot escape liability by hiding behind the company.
I understand that the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, is concerned, as perhaps are others, as to whether “manager” might, in a large organisation, cover relatively junior employees in management roles. I am advised that this phrase has been considered by the courts, which have determined that “manager” refers only to those in a position of real authority as regards the company’s affairs and not to those merely responsible for day-to-day management of part of the business. It is therefore the most senior company officers who might be held liable under this clause. In any event, the key point to note is that liability will arise only if the individual has personally consented to or connived in the offence.
“( ) For the avoidance of doubt, a warrant under this section may not be issued in respect of the Parliamentary estate.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, although it is not grouped technically, perhaps I may take the Clause 28 stand part proposal with this amendment. The reason for this is that the amendment and the clause stand part Motion stem from a letter which was circulated to the Minister from the Select Committee on the Constitution. When we drafted the amendments we had not seen a response, but there has now been one. The response deals with the issues raised in Amendment 25 and Clause 28 and it may be more convenient for the Minister to deal with them together. I am getting panicked looks from the other side of the Dispatch Box so I am not sure whether it is. I am not sure whether the noble Earl, Lord Courtown, is giving a reassuring sign or a sign of defeat. However, we will continue with my plan to quickly introduce the two issues and hope that the points can be gathered and responded to together, which will save time later.
For those who are now confused about where we are on this matter, the Bill, in the sense and spirit of the convention, makes the treatment of any offence under the Act, as it will be, so serious that previous measures undertaken to protect this property, the Palace of Westminster, and the people who work here, would be vitiated. While that is right in some senses, some feel, particularly those who serve on the Select Committee on the Constitution, that it is a step too far and that further thought should be given to it.
I have now seen the response but I have not fully absorbed it because I got it only 10 minutes before the session started. The letter is from the Minister in response to the letter sent originally by the noble Lord, Lord Lang of Monkton, chair of the Select Committee on the Constitution. She seems to give positive and straightforward answers to the points raised by the Select Committee and it would be more appropriate for her to respond and give reassurance, if needed, to the Committee on this point. I beg to move.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I thank the noble Lord for the opportunity to discuss and make clear to the Chamber the concerns of the Constitution Committee. As he has said, I have written to the committee today and I am sorry that the need to take advice meant that the letter could not be sent earlier. The purpose of the search and seizure provision is to enable the UK to fulfil its international obligations in relation to cultural property that has been unlawfully exported from an occupied territory. In particular, it enables us to fulfil our obligation under the First Protocol to return such property to its country of origin. That obligation is absolute and does not allow for any exceptions. We therefore need to ensure that the police have the power to search for and seize unlawfully exported cultural property wherever it may be in the United Kingdom.
I consider it right in principle that the search and seizure powers in Clause 23 should apply equally to the Parliamentary Estate and this wonderful building and we consider that the drafting of the Bill allows for that. My department has been in contact with the relevant parliamentary authorities with regard to the search and seizure powers in the Bill, recognising parliamentary freedoms. Any search or seizure taking place within the Palace of Westminster would of course need to be exercised in a way that respects the privileges of our Parliament. In practice, we would expect there to be a high degree of co-operation between the police and the House authorities with regard to both the need to obtain a warrant at all and with the execution of any warrant obtained. I would also note that we expect the likelihood of any warrant being applied for to be incredibly low, based on the very small number of items of cultural property unlawfully exported from occupied territories that we expect to be entering the UK after this Bill is enacted. In short, we are in discussions with the House authorities to ensure that the privileges are observed and the convention implemented. I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment and agree to the clause.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I thank the noble Baroness for that reply and I think that the Committee will be reassured by what she has said. However, the fact that discussions are still ongoing suggests that this may be something she might wish to return to on Report.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I am happy to do that. The noble Lord will know that we brought the Bill forward on the day of the Queen’s Speech and I am afraid that we have rushed one or two things. Fortunately we have a number of stages still to go and we are in discussions with the House authorities in the appropriate way. I hope the Committee understands that our wish was to get on and was certainly not in any way not to do the right things by the House authorities.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
It would not be out of place to say that I am sure the Minister would not dare go against the noble Lord, Lord Lang of Monkton, who is very severe in these matters. However, with that assurance, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
We have sought a debate on whether Clause 26 should stand part, not for any reason to do with the drafting or the content but rather because this goes back to where we have been on a number of occasions during our debates. It is the question of who picks up the tab for any activities relating to cultural properties that are caught by the Bill. The question is whether there will be a running order or list of properties or institutions where it is known that good facilities are available for the storage of cultural property. Again, where will the costs be met? Are they just to be absorbed within the running costs of the buildings, given that the suggestion is that there will not be many articles and that the costs will be relatively low, or will there be some sort of appropriate funding?
The related point, which is not caught by any part of the Bill, is the question of property that is picked up by actions of Border Force, in any market involved or for other reasons. The property itself may be of estimable value and would in time be returned to a country, but for the time being that cannot be done because of the prevailing conditions there. The question then arises of whether that property would be available for display or inclusion in exhibitions so that at least its cultural worth is not hidden and taken out of circulation. It might be appropriate for the Minister, when she responds, to comment on that issue.
“Safeguarding cultural property
At the end of the period of one year following the passing of this Act, the Secretary of State shall prepare a report to Parliament on how the Government have safeguarded cultural property situated within the UK against the foreseeable effect of an armed conflict, in accordance with Article 3 of the Convention.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, the obligations placed on Her Majesty’s Government as a result of ratifying this treaty go both ways. As I have already mentioned, they apply when British forces, however controlled, take the field in interstate or state-to-state warfare, and they also apply in a situation where we should be preparing for any unfortunate exercise of war against the United Kingdom. Obviously, we hope that that is a very remote situation; nevertheless, it raises questions about the exact order of priorities for the cultural properties and artefacts which fall to our nation to preserve and hold for future generations.
Through the papers that have been prepared and the issues relating to the Bill, we have sought guidance on this, but we have not yet received very much. We had a briefing from Historic England, which has obviously been involved, in which it points out that very few other countries have fulfilled their obligations under the convention to provide lists. However, some have and interestingly, the view appears to be that you should first look to world heritage sites, to UNESCO contexts and other statements made by UNESCO, and then work gradually through to internal arrangements such as listings, and whether it is grade 1 in England or category A in Scotland and other places. Obviously, that could provide a very long list of valuable properties: this country has a large number of buildings that we want to preserve, and that list increases hugely if one thinks about the artefacts gathered over the years that we want to protect.
Some guidance should therefore be forthcoming at some point, whether now or later in the passage of the Bill. Before we finish considering the Bill, it would be helpful to have a better understanding of what approach the Government are taking, what sorts of bodies will be involved, what sorts of buildings and artefacts we are talking about, and, having identified them, whether there are sufficient plans and resources in place to make sure that these precious items have been, will be and could be looked after during any period of warfare that might arise. I beg to move.
The Earl of Clancarty
My Lords, I support Amendment 28 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Collins. It is worth mentioning that UNESCO requests countries to fill in an extensive questionnaire every four years explaining how they are protecting their cultural property. There is a more general aspect: protection. The last questionnaire completed by Germany can be found online and includes, for example, what has been done to protect cultural property from flooding. It is all very well to say that you have done everything in your power to protect your cultural property from the effects of armed conflict, but if it has deteriorated or been harmed for other reasons, that rather negates the whole point of the exercise. Although military conflict can be devastating, most protection of cultural property takes place in peacetime, and that protection needs to be framed within this wider context.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, the obligation on states party to the convention to safeguard their own cultural property against the foreseeable effects of an armed conflict is obviously an important one. I have already agreed to update the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, on some of our plans more generally, which is probably relevant to this amendment as well. I should say, however, that we have concerns because the safeguarding requirements that are the subject of this amendment seem to relate to administrative arrangements rather than those covered by the Bill. I have already referred, in response to an earlier amendment, to the UNESCO report to which the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, referred with an interesting example of German good practice. We will be making that report every four years. The UK Government will already be reporting on the safeguarding of cultural property as a matter of good practice, in line with the reporting obligation in Article 26 of the convention, so it does not seem necessary to introduce a separate statutory obligation on this point.
We are already considering the administrative measures that will be needed to implement the convention once the Bill is passed into law and I will reflect, as I have said, on the issues raised during the passage of the Bill so far. In practice, there will be existing safeguarding measures in place for the majority of cultural property under general protection in the UK. Article 5 of the second protocol expands on the meaning of “safeguarding cultural property” by giving some examples of the kind of preparatory measures that should be taken in peacetime. These include: the preparation of inventories; the planning of emergency measures for protection against fire or structural collapse—presumably flooding would come under that broad heading—preparation for the removal of movable cultural property or provision for adequate in-situ protection of such property; and the designation of competent authorities responsible for the safeguarding of cultural property.
The early thinking is that the most appropriate body to undertake peacetime safeguarding measures is the existing owner, guardian or trustee of a cultural property. I hope that has given noble Lords some reassurance about safeguarding cultural property, both in relation to substance and process, and I ask them to withdraw their amendments.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I thank the Minister for her response. I think that covers most of the issues I have raised, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) The day or days which the Secretary of State appoints in accordance with subsection (2) shall each be one of the Common Commencement dates.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I am sure that the Minister will not mind debating my favourite topic, which I know she shares. I will not in any sense apologise for the lateness of the hour because it ain’t late.
When we were preparing for these debates, we obviously had regard to the substance of the Bill and the need to make sure that we lived up to the promise that we gave that there would be satisfactory scrutiny. I hope that we have done that today; I certainly feel as though we have. I am grateful to the Minister and the noble Earl, Lord Courtown, for their responses, which will be in Hansard and will be very important in fleshing out the wording of the Bill in relation to how it will apply to those who have to implement it and take it forward. That is a very important part of this process.
There may be one or two things that we will want to come back to on Report but I do not see them being very significant or necessarily contested. I think there will just be more clarification or perhaps a chance to exemplify or build on stuff that has already been covered today. Indeed, we have already found that much of the stuff we did today was raised also at Second Reading. So we will have had a very full canter through these issues.
We should not in any sense demean the value of the Bill in terms of how it will change and shape what British forces and others involved in the protection of cultural property will do in the future—it is a Bill that we want to see go through in its present form and we do not wish to change it—but it occurred to me that I could not let Clause 32 pass without going back to my favourite topic, which is the need to minimise the burden on business by reducing the number of dates on which regulation floods in under the agency of a Government who are supposedly trying to cut back on red tape. The Minister will argue—rightly, I am sure—that the Bill does not apply primarily to business and therefore probably escapes the prohibitions that might come from statutory instruments deriving from it being implemented randomly through the year and therefore there will be no need for compensation, but I am sure she will want to share with me two things.
First, you cannot really let a Bill get through scot free. It should have one amendment, I think. If she wants to do that, here is one. It is not a Christmas tree Bill. These are not Christmas tree presents, but it is a nice, gentle little amendment which will show that we really have exercised the authority, wisdom, history and grandeur of the House of Lords in these troubled times. Secondly, it is a good thing to restrict the number of days on which regulations come in, and I hope she will respond to that. I beg to move.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, I rise simply to express the hope that the Bill speeds through rapidly, whatever else is happening around us, and that it is commenced as soon as possible. We have waited a very long time—since 1954—for this Bill to be put in place.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, I feel very well scrutinised today. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for her support in relation to the speedy passage of the Bill.
The Government recognise the importance of giving as much advance notice as possible of when new regulations and requirements will come into force, particularly where they have an effect on business, as has been said. Of course, common commencement dates are not defined in law, they are a matter of policy, and we are not aware of any precedent for referring to them in legislation. In order to refer to them in the Bill, a definition would need to be included. But our intention is to bring the provisions of the Bill into force as soon as possible after Royal Assent.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, knows that I share his passion for common commencement dates, and if we can bring the Bill in on a common commencement date we will of course do so, but we have to balance that with the need to get ahead and implement the convention and the protocols. As I see it, the sooner we are able to bring the provisions of the Bill into force, the sooner we will be able to ratify the convention and its protocols and ensure that cultural property has the protection it needs, which is provided for in the Bill, and hold our head up high in international institutions that are concerned with cultural property.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
Well, follow that. I think these aspirations are shared on all sides of the Committee and I am privileged to have played a part in making sure that—at last—we get this piece of legislation through. It has been a good exercise on all sides of the House to scrutinise but also to support the aspirations and aims we all have for this—for making this little piece of the jigsaw puzzle, which has eluded us for so long, now finally come to pass in a picture that we hope will paint more than 1,000 words.
The issue that we will be left with is how we deal with this on Report and at later stages. We need to think through how we will want to do that to help speed the Bill on its way. But we have promises of cups of tea ringing in our ears and I am sure that those will be at least part of the process. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.