Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Baroness Morgan of Cotes and Baroness Berger

Committee stage
Thursday 27th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Morgan of Cotes (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I support the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron. I was pleased to add my name to Amendments 266, 479 and 480. I also support the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Nash.

I do not want to repeat the points that were made—the noble Baroness ably set out the reasons why her amendments are very much needed—so I will make a couple of general points. As she demonstrated, what happens online has what I would call real-world consequences—although I was reminded this week by somebody much younger than me that of course, for the younger generation, there is no distinction between online and offline; it is all one world. For those of us who are older, it is worth remembering that, as the noble Baroness set out, what happens online has real-world, and sadly often fatal, consequences. We should not lose sight of that.

We have already heard many references to the Online Safety Act, which is inevitable. We all knew, even as we were debating the Bill before it was enacted, that there would have to be an Online Safety Act II, and no doubt other versions as well. As we have heard, technology is changing at an enormously fast rate, turbocharged by artificial intelligence. The Government recognise that in Clause 63. But surely the lesson from the past decade or more is that, although technology can be used for good, it can also be used to create and disseminate deeply harmful content. That is why the arguments around safety by design are absolutely critical, yet they have been lacking in some of the regulation and enforcement that we have seen. I very much hope that the Minister will be able to give the clarification that the noble Baroness asked for on the status of LLMs and chatbots under the Online Safety Act, although he may not be able to do so today.

I will make some general points. First, I do not think the Minister was involved in the debate on and scrutiny of—particularly in this Chamber—what became the Online Safety Act. As I have said before, it was a master class in what cross-party, cross-House working can achieve, in an area where, basically, we all want to get to the same point: the safety of children and vulnerable people. I hope that the Ministers and officials listening to and involved in this will work with this House, and with Members such as the noble Baroness who have huge experience, to improve the Bill, and no doubt lay down changes in the next piece of legislation and the one after that. We will always be chasing after developments in technology unless we are able to get that safety-by-design and preventive approach.

During the passage of the then Online Safety Bill, a number of Members of both Houses, working with experienced and knowledgeable outside bodies, spotted the harms and loopholes of the future. No one has all the answers, which is why it is worth working together to try to deal with the problems caused by new and developing technology. I urge the Government not to play belated catch-up as we did with internet regulation, platform regulation, search-engine regulation and more generally with the Online Safety Act. If we can work together to spot the dangers, whether from chatbots, LLMs, CSAM-generated content or deepfakes, we will do an enormous service to young people, both in this country and globally.

[Baroness Berger (Lab)]

My Lords, I support Amendments 479 and 480, which seek to prevent chatbots producing illegal content. I also support the other amendments in this group. AI chatbots are already producing harmful, manipulative and often racist content. They have no age protections and no warnings or information about the sources being used to generate the replies. Nor is there a requirement to ensure that AI does not produce illegal content. We know that chatbots draw their information from a wide range of sources that are often unreliable and open to manipulation, including blogs, open-edit sites such as Wikipedia, and messaging boards, and as a result they often produce significant misinformation and disinformation.

I will focus on one particular area. As we have heard in the contributions so far, we know that some platforms generate racist content. Looking specifically at antisemitism, we can see Holocaust denial, praise of Hitler and deeply damaging inaccuracies about Jewish history. We see Grok, the X platform, generating numerous antisemitic comments, denying the scale of the Holocaust, praising Adolf Hitler and, as recently as a couple of months ago, using Jewish-sounding surnames in the context of hate speech.

Impressionable children and young people, who may not know how to check the validity of the information they are presented with, can so easily be manipulated when exposed to such content. This is particularly concerning when we know that children as young as three are using some of these technologies. We have already heard about how chatbots in particular are designed in this emotionally manipulative way, in order to boost engagement. As we have heard—it is important to reiterate it—they are sycophantic, affirming and built to actively flatter.

If you want your AI chatbot or platform not to flatter you, you have to specifically go to the personalisation page, as I have done, and be very clear that you want responses that focus on substance over praise, and that it should skip compliments. Otherwise, these platforms are designed to act completely the other way. If a person acted like this in some circumstances, we would call it emotional abuse. These design choices mean that young people—teens and children—can become overly trusting and, as we have heard in the cases outlined, reliant on these bots. In the most devastating cases, we know that this focus on flattery has led to people such as Sophie Rottenberg and 16 year-old Adam Raine in America taking their own lives on the advice of these AI platforms. Assisting suicide is illegal, and we need to ensure that this illegality extends to chatbots.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Baroness Morgan of Cotes and Baroness Berger

Monday 25th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Nicky Morgan]

I agree with my right hon. Friend. That is precisely why the Department has made this a priority. We understand that, although teachers are not mental health workers, they work with young people day in and day out, week in and week out, and they will be able to spot the issues. However, they need to know that when the cases get referred, they will be dealt with speedily by the medical service, which is why we are working closely with the NHS as well. I also want to ensure that teachers are fully equipped to tackle mental health problems and mental health stigma in classrooms, and that is why we have funded the Personal, Social, Health and Economic Education Association to produce guidance and lesson plans to support age-appropriate teaching on mental health issues which can be used in this academic year.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

I should like to thank the Speaker for kindly giving me permission to join this departmental question session and others in order to raise these important issues on mental health. At least half the adults who have mental health problems are diagnosed in childhood, so it is vital that we intervene early to promote good mental health in children. I listened carefully to what the Secretary of State said, but it is on her Government’s watch that they will underspend by £77 million on the child and adolescent mental health budget. Concerns have been raised by no fewer than four Select Committee Chairs about this Government’s dire record on PSHE, and we have seen a dramatic increase in the number of children turning up at A&E with mental health problems because the thresholds to access services are increasing. When will the Secretary of State stop the warm words and give us proper action to support the child and adolescent mental health services that this country desperately needs?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Baroness Morgan of Cotes and Baroness Berger

Thursday 27th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

6. What assessment she has made of the effects of Government policies on domestic violence support services.

[The Minister for Women and Equalities (Nicky Morgan)]

The Government have ring-fenced funding of nearly £40 million until 2015 for specialist domestic and sexual violence services. The Home Office is working closely with the women’s sector on a programme of engagement with local commissioners. Earlier this week, the Government announced an additional £10 million of funding for refuges for victims of domestic abuse.

[Luciana Berger]

Despite what the Minister has said, women’s refuge charities report that services are still closing right across the country, with some areas having no refuge provision left at all. We need a comprehensive audit of domestic violence service provision to be carried out urgently. Why have the Government failed to do that and when will they do it?

[Nicky Morgan]

The Government have been putting the funding in. I have mentioned the £10 million that was announced this week. The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government has written to all local authorities this week to say that, even though the funding environment is extremely difficult, they must continue to prioritise the provision of refuges for victims of domestic abuse and domestic violence. Rather than talking about audits in Whitehall, we want to get on with giving money to the services on the ground to fund the valuable work that they are doing.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Baroness Morgan of Cotes and Baroness Berger

Tuesday 24th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

8. What recent assessment he has made of the effect of the Government's policies on its commitments under the Child Poverty Act 2010.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

10. What recent assessment he has made of the level of child poverty.

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Nicky Morgan)]

The Government are committed to our goal of ending child poverty in the UK by 2020. We are determined to tackle the root causes of poverty, not just the symptoms. Our draft child poverty strategy 2014-17 sets out our approaches, based on robust published evidence review. Work remains the best route out of poverty. We are making work pay and tackling low pay through our reforms to the welfare and tax systems. Universal credit, for example, will lift as many as 300,000 children out of poverty.

[Nicky Morgan]

We have set out, as I have already said, a clear commitment by this Government to end child poverty by 2020. The hon. Lady’s question shows that there are a number of root causes of child poverty. Incomes, of course, are a very important part of that. We are working to raise the income of poor children’s families by helping them get into work and making work pay, and she will appreciate the rise in the national minimum wage. We are also raising educational outcomes for poor children, which is equally important.

[Luciana Berger]

But nearly 30% of children in my constituency, Liverpool Wavertree, are living in poverty, and many of those children have parents who are in work. This is the highest level in five years. Is the Minister embarrassed by her Government’s record on child poverty? What exactly is she going to do about it?

[Nicky Morgan]

Five years ago there was a Labour Government in power, and I am sure the hon. Lady will welcome the fact that there has been a 21% fall in jobseeker’s allowance claimants in her constituency. I am sure she will also welcome the rise in the national minimum wage that this Government have overseen.