Biodiversity Emergency
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer Excerpts(3 years ago)
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Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD) [V]
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Teverson on securing this debate on Earth Day. I want to talk about earth, but the sort of earth that is under our feet: the soil.
A healthy soil is full of living things, including microbes, bacteria, amoebas, mycelium and invertebrates. I remember the late Lord Peter Melchett, a great champion of the soil, talking about the soil food chain and saying that moles are to the soil what lions are to the Serengeti. Given that soil is so much the base for a healthy ecosystem, has the situation improved with regard to the number of academics working on soil? If we are to have environmental land management, we will need people to analyse, measure and make sure that the targets and remedies are correct. In 2017, when I asked the Government about the number of soil scientists, there were just five professors in the whole of the UK working on soil science and 25 academic staff in total. Can the Minister tell me what the situation is now? We will need to assess the biology of the soil. If there are so few experts, who is to do so?
Those advising farmers and selling products to them—agronomists and agricultural product retailers—are good on chemical analysis and telling whether the soil is compacted, but they are not so good on soil biology. If we are to transform our terrestrial biodiversity, we must be able to recognise that good soil, in all its richness, is a food source to those higher up the food chain as well as a means of producing food for ourselves.
Pandemics and Environmental Degradation
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer Excerpts(3 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the relationship between the emergence of pandemics and environmental degradation.
The Minister of State, Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park) (Con) [V]
My Lords, my department has not made an independent assessment of the relationship between the emergence of pandemics and environmental degradation. However, Defra has been fully engaged in the Intergovernmental Science-Policy Platform on Biodiversity and Ecosystems Services work, including the 2019 Global Assessment Report on Biodiversity and Ecosystem Services, which highlighted the links between exploitation of nature and emergence of infectious diseases, and the subsequent IPBES workshop report on biodiversity and pandemics, which was published last year.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD) [V]
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. This pandemic is a stark example of exactly what those pieces of research have found: what happens when nature is abused, whether through habitat destruction or the wildlife trade, can wreak stark things for humans. I know that the Minister, through his work with the Taskforce on Nature-related Financial Disclosures, is aware that evaluation and disclosure by corporates and the investment sector is very important, but does he agree that subsequent action is even more important? What lessons would he draw from all the work on carbon issues, so that we move from high carbon emissions to much lower carbon emissions and an ambition for net—
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)
That question is far too long. Can we hear from the Minister, please?
Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer Excerpts(3 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that we will continue to engage with the US and with the P5 process. As he will be aware, we led on that last year. We will work very constructively with the French, who lead on the P5 this year.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD) [V]
My Lords, for the purposes of investment, this treaty puts nuclear weapons clearly in the category of controversial weapons. Does the Minister agree that investment in such weapons by responsible and ethical pension funds and other investors will quickly become completely unacceptable?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, the nuclear industry and its wider energy benefits are also part of the debate. We remain very committed to a minimum but credible independent nuclear deterrent.
Queen’s Speech
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer Excerpts(4 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD)
My Lords, the gracious Speech shows just how out of touch with people this Conservative Government are because outside Westminster—in London, Bristol, Leeds and small towns up and down the country—people, but especially the young, are really worried about climate change. It is a lot more than just a worry; as they realise, it is indeed a crisis.
Does climate change feature as a major issue in the gracious Speech? No. Does it appear in paragraphs one, two or three? No. Not in fact until paragraph 21 does a small throwaway phrase appear, saying that the Government,
“will prioritise tackling climate change”.
Your Lordships can imagine the conversation that went on. Someone read the gracious Speech and said, “Oh no, we haven’t mentioned climate change”. The other person then said, “Oh, just stick it in at the end and say it is a priority”, which is really not good enough. The Minister, in his normal charming way, went some way to filling in a bit of detail on the Government’s thinking about climate change. However, the gracious Speech lays out the Government’s priorities, and it is simply not there.
On a happier note, and before I address the main substance of my remarks, I give warm congratulations—I am sure other noble Lords will join me—to the Ethiopian Prime Minister, Abiy Ahmed, on receiving the Nobel Peace Prize recognising his critical role in building long-term peace in the war-torn Horn of Africa. I had the privilege of being part of a parliamentary delegation to Ethiopia and, some years later, meeting many Eritrean refugees. His work is very welcome and we should recognise it warmly.
I turn to the less happy subject of Brexit and the preparations for a no deal, a report on which the Government published yesterday. I will talk particularly about UK nationals in the EU. I declare an interest as someone who lives and works in France. Last week, I went to an outreach meeting in Bergerac in the Dordogne, organised by the British embassy. A couple of hundred people were there, but their worries represented those of many thousands, ranging from healthcare to pensions, reciprocal qualifications to driving licences.
Running through the meeting was a fundamental bewilderment. These people had moved to France when the UK was a member of the EU and they thought they were coming to a permanent arrangement—not like someone moving to a third country who knows that things are going to be different. They had no say in what was happening; many did not even get a vote in the referendum, despite the Conservatives’ promise of a vote for life being in at least two of their manifestos. That is an utterly broken promise. If we have an election now, will they again be promised the right to vote, only to find that those are more hollow words?
These people are angry, bewildered and very worried. At its well organised outreach meeting, the embassy’s staff tried to answer as many questions as they could. They had invited the directrice of citizens’ rights for the Dordogne—a French functionary—to address the concerns of those present. What could she and the embassy staff say? She said that the French Government’s intention is to make life as smooth as possible for UK citizens needing to apply for residency. However, neither the staff nor the French Government still have any idea whether they are working to a no-deal scenario, a deal, or a bilateral reciprocal arrangement.
When the House of Commons was bitterly divided, the one unifying item was the Costa amendment: that citizens’ rights should be agreed, regardless of whatever happens otherwise. When it was clear to the Government that this was not going to happen, why did they not pursue the issue on a bilateral basis? They have only done it in a piecemeal way. They have signed bilateral reciprocal arrangements with Spain, Portugal and Luxembourg but not with any other member states. When no deal seemed even a vague possibility, the Government could have worked flat out to secure as many bilateral agreements as possible, especially with member states which number several thousand Brits as residents. Why did they not take that approach? They took it with EFTA states and just got on with reciprocal agreements.
The Government say they have spent £11 million providing clear factual information to UK nationals in the EU, but with so many doubts and things undecided and unresolved there are almost no clear facts. If your Lordships look at the Government’s No-Deal Readiness Report from yesterday, on page 46 alone there are many examples of non-facts:
“UK nationals intending to drive in the EU may need to obtain an International Driving Permit … EU Member States may no longer recognise prescriptions issued by UK”,
doctors. Healthcare reciprocal arrangements will last for only six months after Brexit and during registration “if necessary”, as it says on page 43. But who will decide whether it is necessary? Registration times may vary widely from country to country. What if your cancer appears in month five? Will you get only one month of treatment? These are very real worries.
There are also worries that may seem smaller to your Lordships but which are very real to those people.
“Pet owners … may need to take additional steps”,
say the Government. Also, what sort of change in the status of professional qualifications will there be? That will undermine people’s ability to earn a living. Those in receipt of a state pension will receive it, but upgrades are guaranteed only until 2023. After that, UK nationals in the EU will be at the mercy of the Treasury—not a comfortable place to be. How can withholding upgrades be even the slightest bit fair to people who have spent a lifetime contributing? Active British members who live in the EU will no longer be able to vote or stand as councillors in their local community, except in countries where the Government have come to a reciprocal agreement. All in all, nothing is at all clear or factual except that British embassies, if they are really going to help UK nationals, will need considerable extra resources.
The most vulnerable, those with severe illnesses such as cancer or who are going through a crisis such as divorce or death of a partner, will have their nightmares increased enormously. They will be dealing with that nightmare in a foreign language and without any really clear guidance. What scale of resource is the Government intending to devote to vulnerable UK nationals in the EU in the event of no deal? The Government talked in the report yesterday of outsourcing some of the work to a third-party supplier if times get busy. That really leaves you with a bit of a chill—will it be, “Press 2 if your partner has just died, or, press 3 if they have dementia or need help of some sort”?
The Government have a duty of care to UK nationals in the EU. In the event of no deal, they will have to increase resources to embassies exponentially to deal with the next few months. Let us hope that we do not get to that stage. There is a long bit of this game yet to play, but I heard those worries and I think they are very real.
Brexit: UK Nationals
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer Excerpts(5 years, 3 months ago)
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Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what outreach work British embassies have undertaken in the 27 other European Union member states to keep United Kingdom nationals informed of their rights after Brexit.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD)
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I declare my interests as in the register.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, we are committed to ensuring that timely information is available for all United Kingdom nationals living, working and travelling in the European Union. Our network of European posts held over 200 outreach events between November 2017 and December 2018. We are encouraging UK nationals to visit the “UK nationals in the EU” page and the “living in” guides on GOV.UK and to follow their local embassy’s social media channels for the latest updates.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer
Given that outreach work, the Government must have got loud and clear the message of just how angry and disillusioned UK citizens in the EU member states are. Early on, just after the referendum, the Government could have chosen to offer a reciprocal arrangement for EU citizens here and UK citizens abroad, but they chose not to do that. Now, UK citizens have been left as bargaining chips. Can the Minister explain why the UK Government have done a deal with the EEA and EFTA countries to guarantee citizens’ rights but still nothing for Brits in the EU 27? Given that Italy, France, Germany and the Netherlands are offering certainty to UK citizens through guarantees on residency, employment and welfare rights, will the Government finally do the right thing, even at this late stage, and make a reciprocal offer guaranteeing citizens’ rights?
Brexit: UK International Relations
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer Excerpts(7 years, 3 months ago)
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Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD)
My Lords, I join other noble Lords in sending my best wishes to the noble Lord, Lord Howell, for his speedy recovery. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, for his excellent introduction.
In my brief intervention today, I want to talk about an issue which both Mr Ban and Mr Guterres feel merits the most serious effort: progressing work towards a world without nuclear weapons. On 23 January, Mr Guterres underlined his commitment to this work when he said:
“As Secretary-General, I am firmly resolved to actively pursue the abolition of all weapons of mass destruction and the strict regulation of conventional weapons. I am committed to achieving a world free of nuclear weapons”.
Of course, nuclear weapons remain the only weapons of mass destruction not yet outlawed in a comprehensive and universal manner, despite their well-documented catastrophic humanitarian and environmental impacts. Last year, in its 71st session, the UN voted to begin negotiations on a treaty to ban nuclear weapons: 123 countries voted for, 38 against and 16 abstained. It will not surprise your Lordships that the UK was one of those which voted against. The Government have explained why. Their official line is that,
“we firmly believe that the best way to achieve a world without nuclear weapons is through gradual multilateral disarmament negotiated using a step-by-step approach and within existing international frameworks”.
I am sure the Minister will agree that the UK wants to see a world without nuclear weapons eventually, so my question to her is: what international framework, given that the Conference on Disarmament has made no progress in 20 years, and given that progress on Article VI of the NPT has been non-existent, which is a driving fact behind the resolution that was passed by the UN last year? Instead of progress being made, trillions of dollars are going to be spent on modernising and renewing nuclear weapons. It is against that background that non-nuclear weapons states see the ban as a positive step along the road to the realisation of Article VI of the NPT.
There can be an aspirational treaty with a long-term view without upsetting the current world order. Of course, the argument that our Government and the other nuclear weapons states always come back to is: we cannot admit to this aspiration in any treaty without it upsetting the current system of deterrence. Can the Minister say whether the UK Government will be part of the discussions in March and June on the UN ban treaty? That would be a tremendous step forward. The treaty is not asking for an unrealistic, overnight timetable. It simply firms up a goal that is widely agreed, including by the UK, but which is essential. Will the UK be at those negotiations? Will the Government start to take a more positive long-term view?
Outcome of the European Union Referendum
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer Excerpts(7 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD)
My Lords, I want to address two issues. The first is the question of British nationals living in the EU, and in addressing it I declare an interest as I live for a lot of the time in France.
We have rightly heard a lot in this debate about EU nationals living in the UK, and I am glad that all around the House we have had great support for the Government coming out and saying that they can continue to come here to live and work. However, I want to talk about British nationals in the EU, and the first duty of the Government is to them. The Government’s record so far on this issue is poor, having denied many of them a vote in the referendum because if they had been abroad for longer than 15 years they had no vote. They have not really had a voice at all, and they are now very worried about what the future holds.
The government line expounded by Philip Hammond is that this question has to be reciprocal—the bargaining chip approach. That has been excoriated in your Lordships’ House yesterday and today. Not only is it the wrong approach, it is inaccurate. Several of the things most worrying Brits abroad about their future are in this Government’s gift now—for example, the pensions of those who have worked for Britain as teachers, nurses or soldiers or in local government. They are worried that their pensions may be frozen. That is a matter for this Government, not for other EU states. Will the Minister make a clear statement that the Government at least recognise that that is in their purview and that they will make an announcement about it?
Of course there are many other worries around matters such as work permits, schooling, access to universities, healthcare, visas and the reciprocity of qualification recognition. The Government have a duty to consult British citizens living in the EU about matters that need to be considered, and they need to start now. With so many of them having been denied a vote, surely those people deserve a voice.
The second issue I want to mention concerns the environment—things rural, food production and agriculture. The EU was and still is a great force for things green and environmental matters. You have only to think of all the directives that have improved water quality or air, such as the bathing water directive, and the EU birds and habitats directive that ensured that our special areas of biodiversity stayed special. Those are not things that domestic Governments find it easy to spend money on, so it is very important that the EU has had an overarching view. That is where I really fear for the future of all the green issues that I have mentioned.
There is also the question, as mentioned yesterday by the noble Lord, Lord Curry, and today by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, of British food production. These things have been intertwined with, and largely determined by, the common agricultural policy for generations now. I admit that the CAP, like the EU itself, has had a lot of problems—it has needed far more reform than has been forthcoming fast enough—but here in the UK it has meant the survival of many our family farms. I find it ironic that rural areas voted so heavily for Brexit, given what a detrimental impact it is likely to have on rural England at a time when farming faces massive challenges, with commodity prices getting lower and lower. In common with other noble Lords, I must make the point that seasonal labour is essential, and the Government need to make a very early statement and assurance to farmers that they will be able to continue to access seasonal labour.
My next point concerns the support that the Treasury gives to rural areas. I find it hard to believe that the Treasury will continue that support at the sort of level that came from Europe. To date, the Treasury has already been incredibly parsimonious even when it comes to match funding the Pillar 2 issues under the CAP—things of great importance, like young entrants into farming. I worry that many of those measures will no longer be supported just at a time when we need to be addressing issues such as low-carbon agriculture and better soil, so that our very food system can continue and food security will be assured.
The future of food security needs vision, strategy, political will, commitment and investment. Defra has always been at the bottom of the political pecking order—last to be considered, first to be cut. I say to the Minister that in a post-Brexit Government that needs to change, not least because of food security. It is hard to see how the Treasury is going to continue to support that if the rural recipients of any payouts cannot demonstrate the public goods in return for that subsidy, so links need to be made between cleaner water, better biodiversity and all the public goods that should flow from the subsidy of those stewards of our land.
I feel deeply about this vote for our children’s sake. If we have made living and travelling elsewhere that much harder, then at least let us start to really look after this island.
EU: British Nationals Resident Overseas
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer Excerpts(7 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what advice they plan to provide for British people who are currently living and working in, or have retired to, other European Union member states.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD)
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I declare an interest as the co-owner of a vineyard, wine business and house in France.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)
My Lords, as the Prime Minister has said, there will be no immediate changes in the circumstances of British citizens living in the EU, for European citizens here or in the way that our people can travel. The Government have committed to ensuring the best possible outcome for the British people now that the decision has been made to leave the EU.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer
I thank the Minister for her reply. I am sure that the 1.2 million British nationals living in the European Union will be pleased to hear that there will be no immediate change. However, two years is no time to relocate your business, take your children out of school, relocate to a different country and buy a new home. Will this country negotiate on a bilateral basis with each of the 27 member states or will they negotiate en bloc? Secondly, in the new unit to be based in Whitehall, which was also mentioned in yesterday’s Statement, will there be a member of staff with special designated responsibility for this area of work?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, clearly, those who are negotiating the terms of our relationship with the European Union will do that work, with a very firm view about the importance of preserving the rights of British citizens wherever possible. I feel sure that whoever is the next leader of the Conservative Party and Prime Minister will put first and foremost in his or her mind the importance of bringing the country together and getting the best deal possible. Therefore, I cannot give any details in answer to the first part of the noble Baroness’s question. On the unit that is being set up, the Prime Minister and my noble friend the Leader of the House made it clear yesterday that the brightest and best from across government, but also from outside government, will be brought together to ensure that ground work is done in order that, when there is a new Prime Minister and new Government, the negotiations can go ahead.
North Korea: Nuclear Test
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer Excerpts(8 years, 3 months ago)
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Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for giving us this opportunity to debate this important issue. I will concentrate my remarks on the security aspects following the nuclear test. In doing so, I declare my interest as co-president of Parliamentarians for Nuclear Non-proliferation and Disarmament.
It is both heartening and disheartening that, in these last few weeks, we have had the great example of success of talks in Iran and then the very disheartening example of the nuclear test in Korea. It shows what the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and associated treaties are up against. It goes to the heart of our obligations under the NPT—by “our”, I mean in particular the nuclear weapons possessing states, the P5 plus.
Noble Lords will remember that the nuclear non-proliferation treaty began life in 1970. In fact, North Korea acceded to it in the mid-1980s, but it never came into compliance and it withdrew from the treaty in 2003. The treaty has an unprecedented number of countries belonging to it—191, in fact—which could make it the most successful arms-limitation and disarmament treaty that there is. Only four UN member states have never joined the NPT: India, Israel, Pakistan and South Sudan. Today’s debate is not the time to discuss the implications of that, but it is something that we need to keep in mind.
The point I make is that the situation in North Korea has been decades in developing. In nuclear terms, we knew, once it withdrew from the treaty in 2003, that we had a real problem on our hands. The question for the Minister is: who does she believe is in the best position to start that dialogue with North Korea about nuclear issues now? I noticed the comments of Mr Blinken, Deputy Secretary of State for the US, that China should take the lead. He said that the United States believes that,
“China has a special role to play”.
If China is to be the one to take the lead, there has to be a real push from all of us other countries for China to do so.
The point I would really strongly like to make is that every country concerned with nuclear material has a special role and responsibility. Being part of the so-called nuclear club may, some believe, give you added status as a world power and the added security of owning a deterrent. Personally, I do not believe that either of those is inevitably correct. However, it is indisputable that, as a member of that nuclear power club, one has a special duty to ensure the safety of non-nuclear states and the rest of the world. In this context, China has a duty to do everything it can do to denuclearise North Korea. Because it is probably closer to North Korea than anyone else, China is in the best position to do so. I have no doubt that there are incredibly complex political considerations and insecurities that will influence this, but the overwhelming danger of proliferation of nuclear weapons means that that issue has to take priority.
For our part, we—the UK, USA and France—should see nuclear material as a potential continuum from energy to material for bombs. The purpose of the various treaties—the Fissile Material Cut-Off Treaty, the CTBT and the NPT—is to contain it and make it as safe as possible. Of course, the USA undermined the NPT with its civil nuclear deal with India, which, as I mentioned, is not a member of the NPT, even though it had not joined the club. Israel is allowed to remain in the position where it does not declare its nuclear weapons. In that continuum, the UK also made a decision—there may have been behind-the-scenes talks about this, I do not know—to allow the Chinese to buy into Hinkley Point. That is tacitly saying that all is satisfactory with the Chinese attitude to nuclear material in general and the treaties governing it, but clearly that is not in the case as far as North Korea is concerned.
The logic by which the P5 plus decide who shall and shall not be a nuclear state has not been historically arrived at by the logic of those that are the most responsible countries. But it is by virtue of being in the P5 that we have to exercise our responsibilities in every possible sphere, including trade, and make it quite clear to those whom we trade with and those who can influence other people—in this case, China and North Korea—that there is a continuum in nuclear material and that we have to stay within the terms of the treaty.
European Union Referendum Bill
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer Excerpts(8 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD)
My Lords, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London spoke earlier of the changing historical shape of Europe. I live part-time in Aquitaine in France—a region that was, of course, part of the kingdom of England for some centuries. Consequently, I frequently journey from here to there. During the time I have been doing that, I have developed a tremendous admiration for Queen Eleanor of Aquitaine. She frequently journeyed to and fro on horseback, through strife and storms, often while pregnant. I am glad to say that my journeys are less arduous.
Aquitaine, like other parts of France and Spain, has tens of thousands of British expats living there. Can the Minister confirm how many UK citizens have lived abroad for more than 15 years and how many of them live in EU member states? These are the disenfranchised British people I want to talk about.
As the Minister made clear, the basis for this Bill is the Westminster franchise, but that is not fit for purpose for this referendum. It is quite illogical that it should be used because it is to do with local and national elections.
Among these British expats, many have worked in the UK for their whole lives—as teachers, soldiers, doctors, diplomats, bus drivers—and many still pay taxes in the UK because they get a UK government pension. Their children and grandchildren live and work in the UK. These people are deeply invested in the UK and care about its future. Of course, if they live in the EU, they are concerned about how the changes will affect their own future in a very direct way. However, their concerns run much deeper and wider than their own situation. I will quote a policeman, Philip Pearce, who retired from Somerset to France and said:
“I moved to France 20 years ago, living on a government pension from the police force. I have made my home here. Because I have a government pension I still have to pay income in the UK. I pay my income tax there like so many others with government pensions, but have no say in voting. Yes, perhaps this is reluctantly acceptable in normal elections, but not this referendum”.
That is one example. Another could be that of a young person who, after university, goes to look after a sick parent abroad. That parent, though ill, lingers on and that young person, despite long-term hopes of returning to the UK, has no vote. Somebody else, whose career takes them abroad—perhaps when they are 25—and who is still working abroad at 41, has now got small children and plans to return to the UK in the near future. This is quite a common pattern. Why should they not have a vote in the referendum when the rest of their lives will be invested in the UK?
In her opening remarks, the Minister said that the Government intend to pass their votes for life Bill, promised in the Queen’s Speech, in due course. I was glad to hear that. However, there is no saying that it will be enacted in time: in fact, it looks unlikely. Even if we follow the wise advice of the noble Lord, Lord Jay, to get on with it sooner rather than later, I doubt that the votes for life Bill will be enacted by 2016. So those hundreds of thousands of expats will have no say on the future of the EU.
The only way to solve this problem is to amend this Bill to include them. After all, if we can amend the Westminster franchise, as we intend to do, to include Members of your Lordships’ House, surely we can amend it to ensure with safety and certainty that those people whose future in the UK is as invested as ours have their say. This is what I intend to do in Committee.