Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 10th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 63, 65 and 80, in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Hamwee, in this group. They attempt to get to grips with the plethora of organisations that the Bill seeks to authorise to grant criminal conduct authorisations. I remind noble Lords that this is to grant legal immunity to covert human intelligence sources, informants or agents, and authorise them to commit acts that, under any other circumstances, would be a crime, but because these public authorities have said so, they are no longer crimes.

Unlike existing legislation that limits legal immunity to agents of the state engaged in property interference, intrusive surveillance, equipment interference and interception—all exclusively targeted on the most serious criminals and only with prior approval given by an investigative powers commissioner and often a Secretary of State—this Bill seeks to give public authorities the power to grant immunity to anyone, often criminals, for almost any crime that can be imagined with no prior authorisation outside their own organisation. One would hope that the number of public authorities would therefore be extremely limited, and that evidence would be produced to justify their inclusion.

I am taken back to a recent statutory instrument—the Investigatory Powers (Communications Data) (Relevant Public Authorities and Designated Senior Officers) Regulations 2020—which added to the list of public authorities that can access communications data; that is, who contacted whom, from where, and when, but not the content of the communication. In the overall scheme of things, it is fairly low-level data. The Home Office had agreed to include more public authorities on the basis of detailed business cases submitted by each authority.

When I asked to see the business cases, I was told that I could, although the Home Office arranged for me to see them only 45 minutes before the statutory instrument was due to be approved on the Floor of the House. Will the Minister allow Members of this House to see the business cases that form the basis of the Home Office deciding which public authorities should be allowed to grant criminal conduct authorities, preferably not 45 minutes before we consider this issue on Report?

Our Amendment 63 would limit those public authorities that can grant CCAs to the police, the National Crime Agency, the Serious Fraud Office and the intelligence services, as it appears to us to be self-evident why these organisations may need to grant authority to agents or informants to commit crime. The other public authorities require justification, hence my request that noble Lords be able to see the business case justifying each of the other public authorities, albeit redacted and viewed in private.

Our Amendment 65 specifically singles out the Home Office, although it might be seen as a typical example—an example of a type of public authority—for further scrutiny. On the face of it, it sounds that, in theory, if not in practice, the Home Secretary could authorise a criminal to commit a crime and give that criminal legal immunity, whether directly or by ordering one of her officials to do so on her behalf. Giving power to politicians to authorise criminals to commit crime and to be able to grant those criminals immunity from prosecution, with no prior independent oversight, raises some worrying spectres.

Our Amendment 80 is consequential. At this stage, I will listen carefully to the concerns of other noble Lords and to the response from the Minister. I beg to move.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, has spoken with great clarity and authority on the amendments in this group. I will speak to the human rights perspective of Amendment 63 as set out in the Joint Committee on Human Rights’ report on the legislative scrutiny of the Bill. Chapter 6 is concerned with public authorities granted power to authorise crime, as stated by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick.

Paragraph 75 of the report states:

“We accept that the authorisation of criminal conduct by the security and intelligence services and the police may on occasion be necessary … However, the Bill proposes granting the power to make CCAs … to a substantially wider range of public authorities”.


That concerns us. It goes on:

“This provision of the Bill, coupled with the ability to authorise criminal conduct in the interests of preventing disorder and preserving economic well-being … extends the power to authorise criminal conduct well beyond the core area of national security and serious crime.”


There are two key questions here from a human rights perspective. As the report states,

“the first key question is whether the exceptional power to authorise crimes to be committed without redress is truly necessary for each and every one of these public authorities. The second key question is whether the benefit of granting that power would be proportionate to the human rights interferences that are likely to result.”

The Government have provided little justification for the authorisation of criminal conduct by such bodies as the Gambling Commission, the Food Standards Agency and others. The Home Office published brief guidance and a series of operational case studies, which provide examples of authorisation by CHIS in the cases of the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs and other hypothetical examples of where CAAs might be used by the Environment Agency and the Food Standards Agency.

The question must be asked as to why the police or other bodies focused on the prevention of crime should not take full responsibility for authorising criminal conduct that may fall within the purview of these organisations. We are all aware that the police, in carrying out their responsibilities, have vast networks of agencies whom they consult in the course of their duties. They know whom to consult for specific issue as and when such consultation is needed. It is inappropriate and irrelevant to name other specific agencies, whose role is not protecting national security and fighting serious crime.

One of the witnesses to the inquiry carried out by the Joint Committee on Human Rights said:

“If the government believes it is necessary for each of these bodies to have the power to grant authorisations, it should be explicit about whether those bodies already possess non-binding ‘powers’ to authorise the commission of crimes and provide more detail as to how, and how often, those powers are used. In the absence of such an account, there is no reason to accept that all of those bodies require the powers the Bill would give them.”


No such detail is supplied by the Government. It is therefore impossible to assess how agencies whose primary function is not serious crime or national security can, or indeed would want to, be involved formally in granting CCAs. I look forward to the Minister’s explanation.

[Lord Dubs (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I support Amendment 63. I very much agree with the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, and my noble friend Lady Massey, so I shall be brief.

Like my noble friend, I speak as a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. It seems to me that authorisation that goes beyond the police, the National Crime Agency, the Serious Fraud Office and the intelligence services is a step too far. There has to be clear indication by the Government as to why such authorisations are necessary; so far, that indication has not been forthcoming. The list of agencies covered by this provision is so wide—not just Customs and Excise, the Environment Agency, the Food Standards Agency and many other bodies. There is no justification for extending the provisions of the Bill to that extent.

I am very concerned about one other matter. As the Joint Committee on Human Rights noted, under Section 35 of RIPA, the Secretary of State will have the power to make an order adding other public authorities to the list of those permitted to authorise covert criminal conduct. I accept that this power has been used sparingly in the past, but—[Inaudible.]—if additional authorities that have little or no relationship to those permitted to make CCAs—[Inaudible.]—regulatory oversight.

In a previous amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, indicated that using subordinate legislation to extend powers was going rather too far, and it applies in this instance as well. Surely, it is bad enough having a list of these bodies that—[Inaudible]—but adding to them in the future by a parliamentary process that allows for very limited scrutiny. We all know that subordinate legislation can go through, we cannot amend it and it is—[Inaudible]—because of our relationship with the Commons; therefore, this is potentially an abuse of power. For all those reasons, I support Amendment 63.

Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 24th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick (LD) [V]]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 6, in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Hamwee, I will speak also to the other amendments in this group.

Section 27(2) of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 states:

“A person shall not be subject to any civil liability in respect of any conduct of his which … is incidental to any conduct”


that, for the purposes of this Bill, is authorised by a criminal conduct authority. Our Amendment 6 removes this immunity from civil liability. My support in the last group should make it absolutely clear to the Committee that I feel that that is the solution to this problem. It would be only in the very unfortunate circumstance that those amendments are not incorporated into the Bill that I would revert to this amendment.

This part of RIPA was intended to deal with the interception of communications. This might involve placing a listening device in a car or a room or intercepting phone calls, text messages or emails. This could be done only if it was authorised in advance by an Investigatory Powers Commissioner and by the relevant Secretary of State, and against only the most serious criminals, such as terrorists. While intercepting communications is a serious matter, the physical or financial harm to the—suspected—very bad person targeted is likely to be minimal.

The criminal conduct authorities—CCAs—under this Bill authorise undercover operatives to commit crimes in which innocent members of the public could be involved and seriously harmed. A frequent scenario in the past would have been recruiting a member of a gang of armed robbers, who was allowed to participate in an armed robbery during which, by either accident or design, the undercover operative working for the police may have harmed the security guard, potentially very seriously.

Noble Lords will also be familiar with—and other noble Lords have already mentioned—undercover police officers befriending and entering into sexual relationships with environmental activists. Despite the Government’s implied promise at Second Reading that such things would never happen again, in fact, what the Government have said is that an undercover operative would never be “authorised” to have sex with someone they were tasked to enter into a relationship with, not that it would never happen again.

There are two clear and distinct issues here, where someone may seek civil damages. One is where the handler authorises a CHIS to engage in a crime in a way that is not lawful, necessary or proportionate. The other is where the CHIS, whether an undercover officer or, potentially, a member of a terrorist group who passes information back to the police, goes beyond the authority of a CCA.  This could be something

“incidental to any criminal conduct”

they have been authorised to do.

An undercover police officer could argue that he had no choice but to become intimately involved with the activist he was tasked to befriend, and that even if the sexual activity was not specifically authorised, it was “incidental to” the conduct that he was authorised to engage in. To grant him, and potentially the police force concerned, immunity from being sued for damages in such circumstances is repugnant. This illustrates that RIPA was never intended for, and is ill suited to, granting immunity under criminal conduct authorities. 

The Government will say that, even if the CHIS evades civil action, the police force that tasked him, for example, will not. However, that seems to be cast into doubt by what the Minister said in the first group about the extent of the immunity granted, in that that immunity would extend also to the person tasking the CHIS. Again, there are two distinct issues with this.  The first is that if the conduct authorised under a CCA is “lawful for all purposes”, it seems to me that the police force, too, is immune from civil action. The second is that—I speak from personal experience in the police service, as others have—racist and sexist behaviour in police forces reduced only when police officers and their police chief found themselves personally liable for their behaviour. If they had not acted in the course of their duties as a constable, the chief constable could deny vicarious liability, and the officer would be personally liable for any damages. It is the threat of legal action, whether criminal or civil, that ensures that handlers and CHISs keep within the law. Removing civil liability from a CHIS would remove another important check on their behaviour.  

We cannot support Amendment 8, for a number of reasons. First, it says that criminal conduct under the authority of a CCA is lawful for the purpose of the criminal law. Clearly, we do not agree with that. As I have argued in the previous group, we do not believe that that should be the case. Secondly, it requires the authorising body to indemnify the CHIS against having civil action taken against him. For the reasons I have just explained, the personal liability of the CHIS in such circumstances is an important check on their behaviour. 

Amendment 71 would allow a complaint to be brought before an Investigatory Powers Tribunal, which may award compensation. But there is normally a time limit of one year after the taking place of the conduct to which the complaint relates, which seriously reduces the scope for compensation to be applied for, compared with the normal seven-year limit for other civil actions. I do, however, believe that the proposal has some merit, and perhaps with further adjustment it may be more acceptable. I beg to move.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, with his eloquence and experience. I shall speak to Amendment 8.

I am a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. This committee scrutinised the Bill, received expert opinion on it and made the report referred to earlier, most recently by my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton. This report raises many issues of human rights that will need to be teased out and possibly resolved as we go through this Bill.

Amendment 8 is there so that victims of criminal conduct carried out under criminal conduct authorisation can access compensation. This is from paragraphs 104 to 110 in chapter 8 of the report. The report notes that the Bill as introduced is potentially incompatible with human rights legislation. Article 1 of the European Convention on Human Rights requires the UK to secure the rights of all those within its jurisdiction, including victims of crime. Where crime also amounts to a human rights violation, the victim has a right to an “effective remedy” under Article 13, mentioned earlier. A victim also has a right, under Article 6, to have any claim relating to his or her civil rights and obligations brought before a court or tribunal.

Since the Bill would render all authorised criminal conduct “lawful for all purposes”, it would prevent a victim of authorised crime vindicating their rights by bringing a civil claim for compensation. It would seemingly also prevent a claim for compensation under the criminal injuries compensation scheme.

My amendment mirrors the regime in Australia, which, as the report states,

“provides indemnification for any participant who incurs civil liability in the course of an undercover operation.”

In other words, a civil claim can be brought against the perpetrator by the victim, and compensation secured, but the state will then step in to indemnify the perpetrator against his or her losses. The effect of this provision would be to ensure that the person authorised to carry out criminal conduct

“would not suffer the consequences of civil liability, but it would also ensure that the victim of the conduct would obtain civil redress while secrecy is maintained.”

This Bill has been described as promoting the concept of “one size fits all”, framed more eloquently by my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti. It is simply not acceptable or possible to do that. In relation to my Amendment 8, I have mentioned specific issues on human rights legislation, which is the core of the report I have quoted today. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Dubs (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I am also a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, along with my noble friend Lady Massey, and I am speaking in support of Amendment 8. My noble friend has put the case so well that I am just going to add one or two very minor comments. I am going to do so by quoting from the recommendations in the report that the Joint Committee put forward—a report that has set the tone for much of the debate and many of the amendments that we are discussing today. To quote from the recommendations:

“By rendering criminal conduct lawful for all purposes, the Bill goes further than the existing MI5 policy by removing prosecutorial discretion. The reason for this change in policy has not been made clear. It has significant ramifications for the rights of victims. The Government has missed an opportunity to include within the Bill provision for victims of authorised criminal conduct, both legally and practically. This is another reason why the Bill requires additional safeguards to ensure there can be no authorisation of serious criminality.”


I will go on very briefly to the next recommendation in the Joint Committee’s report, which is:

“The Government must explain why the existing policy on criminal responsibility, which retained prosecutorial discretion, has been altered in the Bill to a complete immunity. Victims’ rights must be protected by amending the Bill to ensure that serious criminal offences cannot be authorised. In respect of civil liability, the Government must confirm that authorising bodies will accept legal responsibility for human rights breaches by CHIS or alter the Bill to provide that CHIS will be indemnified rather than made immune from liability.”


This is a very clear proposal, and this is a very clear amendment that would safeguard the rights of individuals who will otherwise have no rights left if the Bill goes through unamended.

--- Later in debate ---

The right to protect journalistic sources is recognised by international law, the United Nations, the Council of Europe and many other international institutions as a key element of freedom of expression. Indeed, the Government themselves have spoken in support of that principle on many occasions. I do not intend to press the amendment to a vote on this occasion but would be grateful for an explanation of the Government’s thinking on this issue, given their previous support for the principle of the protection of journalistic sources.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I, too, remind colleagues that I am a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, as is my noble friend Lord Dubs. I will be brief in supporting my noble friend’s excellent contribution on Amendments 11 and 59 concerning the requirement for prior judicial approval of criminal conduct authorisations, also mentioned by my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws and the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich.

The amendments are based on the JCHR’s examination of the Bill and refer to chapter 7 of its report. Paragraph 94 refers to lack of prior independent scrutiny or approval of CCAs, and paragraph 95 gives examples where the Bill is in contrast to other investigative procedures, highlighted by my noble friend.

Retention of data is also an issue. Privacy is a vital right protected under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights, but the authorisation of criminal conduct risks more damaging human rights violations, including physical violence. Paragraph 97 of the report states that

“the Bill as it stands imposes no requirement that the belief of the individual making the CCA that it is necessary must be a reasonable belief”.

The report concludes that:

“Bringing CCAs within the review function of the IPC provides some reassurance of independent scrutiny of their use after the event. However, this is insufficient protection for human rights”,


and the Bill must be amended accordingly.

[Lord Hain (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I shall speak to my Amendment 15, and I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, for having added their names. I am also grateful to my noble friend Lord Blunkett, a former Home Secretary, who would also have added his name had not the list been full.

This amendment is very straightforward. It ensures that:

“The granting of criminal conduct authorisations under subsection (1) may not take place until a warrant has been issued by the Secretary of State.”


My noble friend Lord Blunkett and I both signed hundreds of warrants for surveillance operations under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000—RIPA—which was updated by the Investigatory Powers Act 2016. When I was Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in 2005-07, I regularly signed warrants to place under surveillance dissident IRA splinter groups planning to kill, bomb and fundraise through drug and other crimes, and I signed warrants for surveillance on loyalist paramilitaries and hardcore criminals. If the Home Secretary was not available, I also signed warrants that he would normally have signed, sometimes with very short notice, in real time—on one occasion, to prevent Islamist terrorists in a south London house unleashing a bomb in London.

The point that I wish to underline is that these were absolutely essential security and policing operations, yet they required ministerial authorisation at a high level. Why was that so? Because ultimately that brings ministerial responsibility and therefore direct accountability. The operational decision was for the police or intelligence services, but the accountability was ultimately governmental and political. The time has come to bring that principle into the sphere of undercover policing, because it has involved far too many abuses for decades and, if there is not the same kind of accountability as for surveillance, there will inevitably be even more abuse.

I met undercover officers doing brave work trying to prevent dissident IRA splinter groups and loyalist groups killing and bombing. I was also briefed about vital undercover work around Islamist terrorist cells to prevent terrorist bombing and killing. In other words, I have direct experience of how undercover officers can perform vital functions to save lives and prevent crimes or terrorist attacks. But I am also due to give evidence early next year in what is described as a non-police, non-state core participant role to the official inquiry on undercover officers established by Prime Minister Theresa May and chaired by Sir John Mitting, a former High Court judge. It was established because undercover policing has got out of control and needs to be made accountable. That is important.

From 1969-70, undercover officers spied on me at anti-apartheid and anti-racist meetings, including when I was an MP in the early 1990s. As confirmed by evidence given to the Mitting inquiry, a British police or security service officer was in almost every political meeting that I attended, private or public, innocuous and routine, or serious and strategic, like stopping all white apartheid sports tours and combating pro-Nazi activity. Why were they not targeting the criminal actions of the apartheid state responsible for, among other things, fire-bombing the London office of Nelson Mandela’s African National Congress in March 1982 and, in 1970, murdering South African journalist Keith Wallace, who had threatened to expose apartheid security service operations in the UK? Why did they show no interest whatever in discovering who in South Africa’s Bureau of State Security sent me a letter bomb in June 1972? It was so powerful that it could have blown up me, my family and our south-west London home were it not for a technical fault in the trigger mechanism. Scotland Yard’s bomb squad, then chasing down the IRA, took it away and made it safe, but I heard nothing more.

Another victim was ecological activist Kate Wilson, whom I mentioned at Second Reading. Agree or disagree with her views and actions, she is not a criminal. Kate was at primary school with my two sons in the 1980s, and our families remain friends. Undercover officer Mark Kennedy formed an intimate and what she described afterwards as an abusive relationship with her for over seven years, even reporting back to his superiors on contacts with my family when I was a Cabinet Minister. I would like to think that a Home Secretary presented with a warrant to assign Kennedy to target Kate Wilson would at least have asked, “Why are our police wasting their time targeting her, an environmental activist, instead of drug barons, human traffickers, criminals and terrorists?” A warrant procedure would force police chiefs to stop and ask that question too, instead of morphing policing from the overtly criminal into the covertly political sphere.

Another widely reported example was referred to by my noble friend Lord Dubs. Doreen Lawrence, now my noble friend Lady Lawrence, is a law-abiding citizen, yet her family’s campaign to discover the truth about her son Stephen’s brutal racist murder was infiltrated by undercover officers. Why were they not targeting the racist criminals responsible for Stephen’s murder? A warrant procedure would have forced police chiefs to stop and ask that question, too, instead of morphing policing from the overtly criminal into the covertly political sphere.

Why did an undercover officer going under the name of Sandra infiltrate the north London branch of the Women’s Liberation Front between 1971 and 1973? She conceded to the Mitting inquiry that she failed to discover any useful intelligence whatever. Some of the meetings were attended by just two activists, she reported. She told the inquiry on Wednesday 18 November, last week:

“I could have been doing much more worthwhile things with my time.”


She worked for the Met’s special demonstration squad. She went on:

“Women’s liberation was viewed as a worrying trend … There was a very different view towards the women’s movement then as compared to today.”


Sandra told the inquiry that she did not think that her work

“really yielded any good intelligence”.

That is nice to know now, over 40 years later, but why was there no proper accountability for her deployment? I like to think that a Secretary of State might have asked a few questions if a request came to authorise her infiltration of a women’s rights group. Knowing that the Home Secretary would take a look, maybe police chiefs would never have deployed Sandra on this scandalous and wasteful mission.

In each of these cases, the police were on the wrong side of justice, the law and history: harassing anti-apartheid activists campaigning for Nelson Mandela’s freedom, instead of pursuing crimes by the apartheid state in our country; infiltrating the family of a climate change activist, instead of combating climate change; covering up for a racist murder, instead of catching the murderers; and targeting women’s rights campaigners, instead of promoting gender equality, including within the police of that time. Why were undercover police officers trying to disrupt all of us, diverting precious police resources away from catching real criminals, such as drug traffickers, human traffickers, terrorists and criminal gangs?

When I give evidence next year to the undercover inquiry, I will also show that there was a systematic pattern of malevolence, deceit and exaggeration by undercover officers. One, named as Mike Ferguson, claimed to be my right-hand man when I chaired the campaign to stop sports apartheid tours by all-white rugby and cricket teams. It was a straight lie; I had no right-hand man. If he is the person I vaguely recollect, he was on the periphery of the central core around me. Mike Ferguson claimed our campaign intended to attack the police at Twickenham when England played the Springboks—a lie. We did not. He also claimed that we planned to sprinkle tin tacks on the pitch—another lie. We did not, and indeed were at pains to avoid personal injury to players, as we ran on to pitches in acts of nonviolent direct action, sometimes being beaten up by rugby stewards or the police. Mike Ferguson reported that we planned to put oil on Lord’s cricket pitch and dig it up—again a lie. We never did. Giving evidence only the other week, another undercover officer who had infiltrated our campaign admitted that this allegation about oil and digging up pitches was false. Undercover officers also played agent provocateur on occasion, daring militant but non-violent protesters into criminal activity.

A warrant procedure would have forced police chiefs to stop and ask serious questions about all this before seeking authorisation from the Home Secretary over Mike Ferguson’s role, instead of morphing policing from the overtly criminal into the covertly political sphere.

This is not ancient history; it has happened over recent decades and could well be happening still. There needs to be a structure of proper accountability to ensure that undercover policing or covert surveillance through embedded agents is performing a legitimate function, not an illegitimate one, as in the examples I have mentioned, including those involving me. Otherwise, how do we stop legitimate undercover police or intelligence work sliding over into the illegitimate and the blatantly political? Even in our era of modern legislatively accountable policing and intelligence work, things are still going badly wrong, such as when counterterrorism police recently put non-violent Extinction Rebellion on their list of terrorist groups, doubtless for undercover operations, which are presumably continuing now, as well.

This covert human intelligence sources Bill does not address any of the key questions that I have asked, which is why I believe that the amendment, which would ensure that a warrant was signed by a Secretary of State before undercover policing was authorised, is vital and why I hope that it will be put to a vote on Report.

Human Rights Act 1998 (Remedial) Order 2019

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

Thursday 3rd September 2020 Grand Committee

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the previous distinguished speakers, who have made many interesting points already. I am not a lawyer, but a member of the very active Joint Committee on Human Rights and will speak wearing that hat. The JCHR has reported on each of these remedial orders this Session, including the one under discussion now. I and all the committee are most grateful to the JCHR secretariat for its detailed work in supporting this committee.

As has been set out, this order concerns the ability of a person whose rights have been violated by a judicial act done in good faith to have an effective remedy for the wrong suffered. The risk has been that the person may be deprived of an effective remedy as required by Article 13 of the ECHR because the Human Rights Act 1998 prevents courts awarding damages in such cases.

I will not go into the history of this, as others are more capable of doing so, but will move on to the role of the JCHR and its conclusions. Our Standing Orders require the committee to report to each House on two things: whether the special attention of each House should be drawn to the draft order and with a recommendation whether the draft order should be approved.

There has been some difficulty over timing to allow proper parliamentary scrutiny of remedial orders, which can be used to amend primary legislation. The Joint Committee has drawn attention to this in relation to the dissolution period we have gone through in particular.

The committee has sought further information since its first report, such as whether Article 13 of the ECHR is given sufficient effect in UK law. There was no clear response to this from the Secretary of State for Justice or in the government response to the report. The committee therefore wrote to the Under-Secretary of State for Justice regarding the Human Rights Act and Article 13 of the ECHR in October 2019 to seek further clarity, and we received responses. The Government set out their position on Article 13 with regard to UK law and clarified the situation.

However, the Government are, of course, currently contesting a case before the ECHR involving Article 13 in relation to a breach of Article 8 on the right to family and private life. The JCHR has asked to be kept up to date on this case. The committee is content that the Government have revised the draft order and considered possible incompatibilities relevant to issues arising from Article 13. The committee welcomes the Government’s acceptance of its recommendations in its first report and the amendments it has made to the draft order. The committee considers that the procedural requirements of the HRA 1998 on the use of remedial powers have been met and considers that the draft order takes care of the incompatibility identified by the courts. The JCHR considers that there are no reasons why the order should not be agreed by both Houses of Parliament, and we recommend that the draft order should be agreed to today. I look forward to the rest of the debate and its outcome.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 17th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 11 in the name of my noble friend Lord Hayward and other noble Lords, and the other amendments associated with it. The House will recall the skill with which my noble friend Lady Stowell of Beeston took through the equal marriage legislation in this House, and it is good to see her in her place as we debate this amendment.

Since 2013, I have, on several occasions, called for the extension of same-sex marriage to Northern Ireland, and I am delighted that my noble friend Lord Hayward has taken up the issue with such skill and determination, strongly supported by others across the House who share our particular interest in gay rights, including the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, who is in her place today.

I take a simple, unionist view. People in Northern Ireland ought not to be deprived of this human right, which is now firmly established in Great Britain. I do not think that the unfortunately named Sewel convention should, on this matter, deter this Parliament from exercising the right, which it undoubtedly possesses, to legislate in a devolved area. Before its collapse, the Northern Ireland Assembly had reached a majority view in favour of reform, and opinion polls in Northern Ireland show that public support for same-sex marriage is running at much the same level as in the rest of our country.

It should be remembered that it was this Parliament that decriminalised homosexuality in Northern Ireland, after a courageous Ulster Unionist, Jeffrey Dudgeon MBE, had brought a case at the European Court of Human Rights. That legislation in this Parliament came 15 years after gay consenting adults elsewhere in our country had ceased to be treated as criminals. Let not gay people in Northern Ireland have to wait so long for the right to marry if that is their wish.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab)]

My Lords, I support these amendments, to which I have added my name. I commend the eloquence of the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, who spoke about the issues clearly and in detail.

I have followed these debates for a number of years and, for me, this is a matter of human rights, on which we have clear laws. It is also a matter of respecting diversity. I have known several same-sex couples who have suffered from not being able to make a deeply felt commitment to each other through marriage. Many of these couples have deeply felt religious faiths. As I recall, at the most recent Assembly elections in Northern Ireland, a number of Members who support equal marriage were elected. I think that 55 out of 90 Assembly Members have declared that they would vote to introduce marriage equality.

Marriage equality has enjoyed clear and growing majority support among the Northern Ireland public over many years, as various surveys have shown. The recently published Northern Ireland Life and Times Survey shows that 68% of people—70% including don’t-knows—support legislation for same-sex marriage. Amnesty International has produced a well-thought-through document on this, saying that the UK Government and Parliament are in a weak position as long as the ban on same-sex marriage continues in part of the UK.

The timetable proposed will allow for a statutory public consultation in Northern Ireland and provide sufficient time for the Government to make the necessary changes to regulations. I do not accept that this is being done in a hurry. The amendment will allow for the law on civil partnerships for opposite-sex couples in Northern Ireland to be brought into line with other parts of the UK, thus addressing the Human Rights Act compliance concern raised by the noble Lord, Lord Duncan of Springbank. This is an issue that we should grasp firmly now and I firmly support these amendments.

[Lord Brennan (Lab)]

My Lords, I had occasion to take part in the same-sex marriage legislation in this House with one objective at the time, which was to balance the opportunity for people of the same sex to marry with the liberty of those of religious belief who disagreed that their Church or belief should be compelled to perform a same-sex marriage within their religious context. This was an extremely important element of that legislation.

The religious liberty exception, which the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, seek to introduce into this Bill, was embodied in the original legislation, which this House passed through a Conservative Government. It has worked in the sense that I know of only one case where somebody has alleged discrimination against a religious practitioner in relation to same-sex marriage, which did not succeed. Why has there been only one case in six years? It is because the Act, when finally passed here, struck a reasonable balance between the two different interests. The amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, basically incorporate into this legislation and, by amendment, into the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, the protective provisions of our existing statute.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 5th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 29 and will speak briefly to Amendment 336, to which my name is attached. I remind the House of my declared interest as chair of the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service. I wish to dwell on that experience in my remarks today, by thinking in this debate about the impact on the child and whether or not they feel that their voice is heard.

It is for this reason that I feel it is vital that the Government take all possible steps to achieve an outcome which retains full reciprocal arrangements between the UK and member states in the field of family law. It is so vital that families needing to go to court must know that whatever court they end up in, and in whatever country, its decision will be respected by other courts. We have heard a lot from distinguished lawyers about the current reciprocal arrangements, which have been built up and evolved over decades. They have provided real benefits to families across the UK. These harmonised rules across the EU for establishing jurisdictions to hear cases, to recognise and enforce each other’s orders, and to co-operate across borders have made a real difference to families caught up in these difficult situations.

Replicating provisions in our own domestic law without full reciprocity would leave our citizens in a position of real vulnerability and confusion. It would lead to very unfair outcomes for British citizens, a point which has already been made. As the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, said so persuasively, the EU instruments which affect UK family law deal primarily with procedural, not substantive, family law. Sovereignty is not the issue here and I really hope that in this debate, as we look at what happens to family law in the context of Brexit, we will not get caught up on the high altar of sovereignty. This is about what happens to very vulnerable and distressed children and families.

I turn briefly to Amendment 336, to which my name is attached. The reason I wanted to attach my name is that the first regulation cited in this amendment—I will not go into the technical detail—is one that we at CAFCASS use a lot in both private and public law, since the fundamental principle is to ensure the reciprocal recognition of court orders between the EU states. It saves re-litigating and protects children who move between states, whether they are living there temporarily or permanently. It also requires states to co-operate with each other in providing information in public and private law, and to assist in placing children in public law cases in other member states; this is practical but really critical. The absolutely key point is that these arrangements help to alleviate the inevitable distress and disruption for the children and families involved.

Our key role at CAFCASS is to ensure that the voice of the child is heard in family courts, whether in public law, which is usually where local authorities are making an application for a child to be removed from a parent and taken into care, or in private law, which is usually where parents are separating with such high levels of conflict that the court is involved in deciding child arrangements such as residence and contact. At the moment, my strong sense is that the critical voice of the child is absent from discussions about what happens to family law post Brexit. This will be much to the detriment of children and young people involved in family proceedings, who are often extremely vulnerable and going through a very difficult period in their lives. This can lead in turn to real emotional distress and trauma, and have an adverse effect on mental health and well-being.

Many of these children will have had what is called in the research “adverse childhood experiences” first-hand, including abuse, domestic violence and bereavement. That is why what we do to our family law as we look at the Bill is so important. We need to make sure that it is as child-friendly as possible, rather than something that is done to children and over which they feel they have no control.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise to support my noble friend Lady Sherlock in this group of amendments. I appreciate the wisdom of noble Lords who have spoken.

I will add a few comments, mainly on children’s rights and child protection, which have been spoken about by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler. I should declare an interest as the chair of the sub-committee on children in the Council of Europe. The EU does not have legal power to change domestic family law, but in procedural rules it ensures that family-related decisions made in the UK can be recognised and enforced in other countries in the EU. Most children live in families, and therefore family law will often have an impact on children. The current rules ensure a level of certainty for families, and therefore children, who move about the countries of the EU. The rules prevent parents avoiding their obligations by moving around. This is because EU law has uniform rules across member states for family law proceedings, including those involving children. EU law ensures that public law decisions to protect children can be enforced in countries of which the child is a non-national. Such law emphasises the best interests of children, as enshrined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child—which I am sure will come up over and over again in the discussion on children—where the welfare of the child is deemed paramount and a child who has the capacity must be given the opportunity to be heard, including in family disputes. The EU maintenance regulation provides for child maintenance to be automatically applicable in any other member state to which either of the parents and/or the child move.

My noble friend and others mentioned the Hague conventions. Other options to ensure family welfare, such as creating bilateral agreements, would take more time to implement and children and families would suffer. The six-week deadline for the resolution of child abduction cases should be retained. Membership of the EU judicial network to facilitate information sharing between courts dealing with family issues should continue. One example of the protection of children is related to the EU directive of the European Council establishing minimum standards for legislative and practical measures to support victims of crime. This includes the specific needs of children and the need to pay attention to services and support in, for example, gender-based or domestic violence. The directive includes special reference to the need to ensure that children’s best interests are the primary consideration and to ensure a child-friendly approach.

I am impressed by and grateful for the report by the EU Committee chaired by my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, Brexit: Justice for Families, Individuals and Businesses. It addresses the 1996 Hague convention in respect of parental responsibility and measures for the protection of children. The maintenance regulation is designed to ensure that rules on jurisdiction and the enforcement of decisions relating to maintenance obligations are continued and provides that obligations should be determined in accordance with the Hague protocol. The report comments on the Brussels IIa regulation in relation to divorce, legal separation and the annulment of marriage. It carries specific rules on child abduction and access rights. I will not go into this in detail but will just say that witnesses to the inquiry on which the report is based commented favourably on Brussels IIa. Sir Mathew Thorpe stated that it is a,

“laudable ambition to achieve better justice for European citizens where issues cross the border of member states”,

and viewed the regulation as “broadly successful”. David Williams QC stated that Brussels IIa had spread into every area of our domestic law.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 5th March 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

37: Clause 5, page 3, line 21, at end insert “except in so far as the Charter is necessary to protect the rights of children and young people as provided for in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and the European Convention on Human Rights.”

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab)]

My Lords, Amendment 37 focuses on the protection, welfare and rights of children once the UK is no longer a member of the EU. I am disturbed by the notion of excluding the European Charter of Fundamental Rights in our domestic systems. Why is removing this being considered? What can be put in its place that is better? Perhaps the Minister can give the House an explanation.

[Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood (CB)]

Are the microphones on?

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

I apologise if there are no microphones, although it is not my fault. There has been little effort to consider how Brexit might affect children. I do not know who has been consulted on this. Perhaps the Minister can tell me. Have children been consulted? Organisations now often consult children about matters which affect their lives. Have the UK commissioners for children been consulted? They are advocates for, and speak for, children. Has the voluntary sector, which does such a splendid job in supplying information and support to children and those of us who work for them, been consulted? If not, why not? Have academics who support children’s rights been consulted? If all these people have been consulted, what are the results of such consultations? Has an impact assessment on how Brexit will affect children been considered? If not, why not?

I believe that there are 80 EU instruments which entitle children to protection and welfare. EU directives have not all been incorporated into UK law, yet these are comprehensive. There are numerous case studies on children as victims of crime—the sexual abuse and exploitation of children, criminal justice, and legal aid for victims. All these emphasise what it will mean to not have the European charter in place. Some have argued that our domestic laws on children are sufficient to protect them in all instances. This is not the case and I shall discuss it in a moment.

Last Monday, my noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith spoke about the need to retain the European Charter of Fundamental Rights and stated that the charter will not be downloaded into our domestic law. An opinion by a Queen’s Counsel concludes that this would weaken human rights protection in the UK. The independent Bingham Centre for the Rule of Law has stated that the charter does much more than codify rights and principles. The Joint Committee on Human Rights, commenting on the Government’s right-by-right analysis of the withdrawal Bill, concluded with six devastating paragraphs in support of retaining the charter. The final paragraph states that some of the charter rights,

“are based wholly or in part on provisions of the ECHR”.

Other international treaties also come into play that have not been incorporated into domestic law, such as the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, to which the UK is a signatory. However, the UNCRC is not incorporated fully into UK law and there are no legal or financial sanctions for non-compliance with its provisions. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, was hoping to comment on this but has had to leave.

The response also states that,

“a failure to preserve relevant parts of the Charter in domestic law after Brexit will lead to a significant weakening of the current system of human rights protection in the UK”.

The Children’s Rights Alliance points out that the European Charter of Fundamental Rights sets out in a single document the fundamental rights protected in EU law and of particular importance to the protection of children’s rights.

We all know that the UK under successive Governments has made great strides to protect and enhance the welfare of children. Examples include the Children Acts of 1989 and 2004 and the Children and Social Work Act 2017, which is not yet in force. However, our domestic laws do not cover the full range of children’s entitlement regulated by the EU. We have no constitutional commitment to children’s rights at central government level, the level at which most EU legislation will be amended or repealed after Brexit.

I give other examples. The Children Act 1989, of course, enhanced the welfare of children but did not regulate the full range of children’s rights to protection covered by EU law—for example, as regards consumer protection and health and safety. The Children Act 2004 strengthened the 1989 Act but does not cover cross-border recognition and enforcement of family orders currently regulated by EU Brussels I and II. In particular, the right of a competent child to be heard in relation to child abduction or family disputes is significant. The Equality Act, welcome though it is, is not particularly strong as an instrument for children’s rights and does not cover many issues that would be of concern post Brexit—for example, equality in the workplace.

The Children and Social Work Act improves decision-making and support for looked-after children and for safeguarding work at the local level. It also makes relationships and sex education appropriate to age mandatory in schools. However, it seems to contradict amendments introduced by the Immigration Act 2016, specifically on care support for unaccompanied children when they reach the age of 18 and do not have leave to remain, are not asylum seekers or do not have a first immigration application for leave to enter or remain.

Other Acts such as the Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009, the Modern Slavery Act 2015 and the broadcasting Act 2003 contain measures to protect children, but are not fully comprehensive and obligations may be vulnerable to repeal when implemented through statutory instruments. The EU (Withdrawal) Bill could create problems for thousands of families affected by divorce or separation or involved in cross-border EU-UK family or child protection cases.

In 2017, UNICEF published its report on the progress made on children’s rights in the UK. It stated that while we have made much progress, we are weak in assessing the impact of legislation and policy on children. There have been significant advances in child protection and welfare in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. However, these devolved measures will be impaired by Brexit as much of EU law affecting children may well be repealed through the use of delegated powers at a centralised level. This, of course, is worth a debate in itself. The Minister may say that Government cannot ignore the Human Rights Act 1998 and the Equality Act 2010. But these Acts, welcome though they are, have limited relevance to children. The European Charter of Fundamental Rights and the UNCRC go wider and deeper. Does the Minister accept this? If so, could he say—I ask this again—what will replace the European Charter of Fundamental Rights? The only way to ensure that children’s rights and welfare are protected is for it to be incorporated as part of retained EU law.

The Government should ensure that all existing protections for children’s rights and welfare in the EU legislative framework are reserved in domestic law. We cannot leave children from the UK—but also, in certain cases, from the EU—vulnerable to unclear or non-existent laws. I cannot understand the decision to drop the European Charter of Fundamental Rights when nothing else is in its place, and I do not know what will be. Why bother? Why reinvent? Any charter or convention, if attacked, must surely weaken the commitment to human rights, and we should resist such attacks with all our might.

[The Earl of Dundee (Con)]

My Lords, in connection with EU withdrawal, and as already intimated, there are perhaps two key aspects concerning our protection of children. First, that the current level of cross-border co-operation should not diminish. Secondly—which this group of amendments highlights—that UK domestic law and its deployment should continue to be guided by the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.

With regard to the first, can my noble friend the Minister reassure us that to safeguard children the right steps are being taken so that the UK will remain part of relevant cross-border interventions, including Europol and the European arrest warrant agreements?

The second focus is on United Kingdom law protecting children. Here, two inconsistencies already obtain. For, while subject to EU legislation, our own UK legal provision still falls short of that covered by EU law on children. In relation to UNCRC there is an even wider gap. That is since, although guided by it, none of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child has been incorporated into UK domestic law at all—hence within Amendment 70 the exhortation that it should now come to be.

However, in spite and irrespective of such apparent anomalies and omissions, after EU withdrawal clearly our principal aim must be to avoid any slippage of existing UNCRC standards. What plans does my noble friend now have to ensure that we do avoid this?

Yet at the same time, does he concur that we ought to go much further; thus not just guarding against the erosion of standards; but in properly maintaining them also seeking to build upon and improve them?

For, rather obviously, sustained cross-border co-operation as well as improved national legislation protecting children are both in the interest of all states. To mutual benefit, therefore, this consideration in turn reflects the positive opportunity for attaining much better results for protecting children’s rights.

All the more so is that the case with us since, although leaving the European Union, we will remain within Europe’s consensus on human rights and the rule of law represented by its far larger affiliation of the 47 states of the Council of Europe, in which parliament, along with those here tonight, including the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, the noble Lords, Lord Russell and Lord Foulkes, and my noble friend Lord Balfe, I have the honour to serve.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood]

My Lords, I too strongly support the rights of children. Indeed, I support the rights of the elderly, in whom, like the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, I must, alas, declare an interest. However, with the best will in the world, I cannot support any of these amendments. The first point I make is that we debated reasonably fully last week the desirability or otherwise of incorporating this charter into UK domestic law in this Bill. The previous group is said to have been “already debated” and I find it difficult to see the logic of now debating a host of questions which raise the same idea, only more narrowly focused on one or two specific, individual charter provisions. This debate has ranged far and wide. We have even been back to cross-border co-operation, which was the subject of an earlier group, and I am certainly not going back down that trail.

I shall turn to the specific rights addressed here. The suggestion that the rights of children could be a primary consideration in any decision affecting them is hardly radical. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, noted earlier, the Children Act 1989 puts it rather higher than a primary consideration: it is the “paramount consideration”. Of course there are areas beyond the scope of the Children Act as such which are in play with regard to children, but for the life of me I cannot think of a single case in recent years affecting children—or, indeed, the elderly—which would have failed under the convention and the common law but would have succeeded only by reference to the charter; nor can I envisage such a case in the future. Somebody may be able to devise a scenario which would meet that but I have not been able to do so.

In any event, the Article 24 rights are regarded as retained general principles of EU law and therefore will continue to apply. The right to be heard on the part of children is not a contentious one. I took the opportunity of the regrettably short break we were given this evening to look at a particular decision—indeed, I think it was one of the last Supreme Court cases I was involved in, and my noble and learned friend Lord Hope will remember it because he presided over it. It was a group of extradition cases under the title of HH v Deputy Prosecutor of the Italian Republic. In the course of it the question of the children’s views was raised; it was an extradition case but the same principle applies across the wide field of children’s interests. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale of Richmond, who gave the lead judgment in the case, concluded:

“I share the view of the Official Solicitor that separate legal representation of the children will rarely be necessary, but that is because it is in a comparatively rare class of case where the proposed extradition is likely to be seriously damaging to their best interests. The important thing is that everyone, the parties and their representatives, but also the courts, is alive to the need to obtain the information necessary in order to have regard to the best interests of the children as a primary consideration, and to take steps accordingly”.


I do not know of cases where children’s interests are lost because they are not permitted to express their views.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

I have a number of case studies on these issues, which I will show the noble and learned Lord. Children’s rights are not always consistent, particularly in youth justice cases. I know that children in custody in the youth justice system are very often ignored, mistreated and not heard.

[Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood]

I would be extremely obliged to the noble Baroness if she would put these cases clearly and crisply on a piece of paper and share them not only with me but with the Official Solicitor, who I think would be extremely interested in the proposition that children’s rights are being ignored in the youth justice system. But if they are ignored now, when the charter is available, what is to be lost?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

I will come on to the noble Lord’s question shortly and answer him directly. None of this extensive framework is altered or in any way diminished by our exit from the EU and the non-retention of the charter. Amendments 68, 69 and 70, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Meacher and Lady Lister, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, would incorporate the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child into domestic legislation and require all public authorities and Ministers of the Crown to have regard to it. Further, Amendments 97 and 158, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, seek to ensure that regulations made to remedy deficiencies in retained EU law are not contrary to the UNCRC. Again, I thank noble Lords for these considered amendments. Although tabled with great intention and faith, in reality they would not enhance the existing safeguards in place to preserve the rights of children in this country—measures that I have already outlined and which will remain in place after the UK’s withdrawal from the EU. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, for her comments and points on this matter.

It is also important to highlight that in addition to these measures, which are a combination of both legislation and commitments, the UK Government already have a commitment to Parliament to give due consideration to the UNCRC when making policy and legislation. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, I assure noble Lords that the Government are working closely with the Children’s Rights Alliance for England to ensure that children and young people’s views are heard and taken fully into account when developing policy and delivery in this area. We are hugely grateful to it for the great work it does to help preserve children’s rights and deliver a framework of actions on the UNCRC. These actions are designed to embed children’s rights across Whitehall and beyond, as we set out in a Written Ministerial Statement in October 2016. Those actions include developing and promoting training for civil servants to help them understand children’s rights and the UNCRC, and looking at how we can promote and embed good practice.

As I have set out, the UK already meets its commitments under the UNCRC through a mixture of legislative and policy initiatives, which effectively safeguard the rights of children in this country, negating the need directly to incorporate the UNCRC itself. That approach is in line with normal practice for implementing international treaties. By going over and above measures already in place, and which will of course remain in place after we leave the EU, the amendments would create new burdens on public bodies and individuals, when the UK’s existing laws and commitments already adequately safeguard the rights of children in this country.

Amendment 70, from the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, addresses continued co-operation on various security and law enforcement tools. Those discussions will be a matter for negotiations with the EU. The continued security of Europe is unconditionally guaranteed and is of paramount interest to us. The Government have been clear that the UK remains unconditionally committed to European security, and in the exit negotiations we will work to ensure that the UK and the EU continue to co-operate closely to safeguard our shared values and combat common threats. We recognise in that regard the value provided by Europol, the European arrest warrant, Eurojust and ECRIS. I hope that that provides appropriate assurances to my noble friend Lord Dundee and reassures other noble Lords of our wholehearted commitment to children’s rights and the UNCRC, showing that our ability to support and safeguard children’s rights will not be negatively affected by UK withdrawal from the EU.

I turn to Amendment 39, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, on the rights of the elderly. I entirely sympathise with the concerns raised today and I reassure the Committee that the Government are committed to the welfare of the elderly. I particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, for drawing my attention to his no doubt excellent report in the Council of Europe. I must profess that in my extensive reading material I omitted to go through that worthy document but, now that he has drawn my attention to it, I shall make it my priority to get hold of a copy and will reply to him in writing on it.

There are enforceable domestic safeguards for the rights of the elderly under the Human Rights Act and the Equality Act. Older people will continue to benefit from the existing strong protections against age discrimination, harassment and victimisation in the Equality Act 2010—for example, when accessing services when we leave the EU. Of course, the Government also make provision for the rights of the elderly in domestic legislation in a range of ways. To take just the most obvious example, domestic law provides for state pensions and the safety net of state pension credit, as well as disability benefits and other measures such as the provision of social care for those with eligible needs—subject of course to a financial assessment—free prescriptions where charges would otherwise apply, and travel concessions. Again, none of this is in any way diminished by our exit from the EU and the non-retention of the charter.

Article 25 of the charter is also a principle, which is different from a right. It cannot be relied upon directly by individuals in the way that rights can. Principles are a valued and important tool, and, in so far as the principles and rights underpinning the charter exist elsewhere in directly applicable EU law, or EU law which has been implemented in domestic law, that law will be preserved and converted by the Bill. Retaining Article 25 as a standalone right in this way is simply not necessary. If Article 25 was incorporated into domestic law, it would be unclear how it was supposed to apply and it would undermine the Bill’s core objective: to give certainty and continuity after we leave the EU.

I turn to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, on protecting children’s rights. The UNCRC does not impose a requirement on state parties to incorporate the UNCRC itself. It is focused on the implementation of rights without prescribing how state parties should achieve that. I reassure noble Lords that the UK meets its obligation under the UNCRC through a mix of legislative and policy initiatives, as opposed to the incorporation of the UNCRC itself.

With regard to Wales, the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 requires Ministers to have due regard to the convention when exercising their functions. The Children’s Rights Scheme 2014 sets out the arrangement Ministers have in place to ensure compliance. None of the rights exercised by Welsh Ministers will be affected by any of the provisions in the Bill.

My favourite hereditary oik, the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, mentioned two articles. I certainly remember writing the article for “ConservativeHome” but have no recollection of writing an article for the Sun on the same day. I would be grateful if he would send me a copy of this for my delectation and interest, and I will respond to him when I have had a look at it.

I hope that my reassurances to noble Lords will enable them to withdraw or not move their amendments.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. We have had an excellent debate on children’s rights and protection, with many articulate and forceful contributions. The noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, stressed that children are potentially the most affected by Brexit because they are young and will be subject to the forces that Brexit might bring. I am disappointed by the Minister’s response. Many of us have said tonight that we recognise that we have made great strides in defending children’s rights and proposing things which improve those rights and the protection and welfare of children. But I would like the Minister to recognise what was also said: namely, that our domestic laws do not protect children in all circumstances. Many noble Lords have given examples of this.

As my noble friend Lady Sherlock said, our laws do not incorporate all the treaties and we should be working towards more incorporation. The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, thought this might be an “oversight”—I think that was the word she used. Whatever it is, we need to sort it out. We need to recognise that children’s rights and protection are not always incorporated into what we do. An example is youth justice, where 17 year-olds can be treated as adults rather than children. Children say that this is not right or sensible, and I agree.

The Government have made it clear that they are very keen on social mobility. It is important, but it will not happen unless children are encouraged to participate in their own futures. I am talking about empowerment as well as protection. Last November, I held a seminar in Portcullis House. One or two noble Lords were there as observers. We talked about child-friendly justice and child mental health. Almost half the participants were children and young people; others included academics, European politicians and NGOs. It was acknowledged by everyone that the contribution of young people was absolutely crucial to defining the needs of children and young people and responding to them. I recognise that the Minister says that they have talked to CRAE—for which I have the highest regard—on the rights of the child, but have the Government actually listened to what children have to say on this? I would like some evidence of that.

As I said, we have made progress on involving and protecting children, but we should be big enough to take criticism when it comes—and we are criticised. We are not rated highly at international level on how we deal with children. I gave the example of youth justice. We should not be complacent.

This is an important set of amendments, spoken to most forcefully by colleagues. I hope that the Minister will call a meeting of those present today and others to discuss how we can move forward on issues relating to Brexit and children. My questions and those of others have not been sufficiently answered. I still have reservations and I would like to meet the Minister to talk about them. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 37 withdrawn.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 26th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)]

My Lords, there cannot be anyone in this House who does not agree that the security of this country is vital and that collaboration in fighting crime is really important. We have to remember that international cross-border crime is one of the real challenges that we face. It has been made easier because of developments in recent times, such as the electronic transfer of money, the ease of travel and the whole business of communicating by cell phones, email and the like. Just as that makes it possible for us to trade, it makes it much more possible for illicit trades to take place, too, so international cross-border crime is something that we really have to contend with in a way that was not the case 50 years ago.

Countering cross-border serious crime, whether it is terrorism, the transportation of drugs, the importation of firearms or all manner of illicit products or trading in human beings, involves incredibly important collaboration and co-operation, so like other noble Lords I welcome the fact that the right noises are being made about future co-operation in policing and security matters, particularly because of the real complexity of this stuff. I was with a group of recently retired senior counterterrorism police officers and someone who was about to retire last Thursday talked about the invaluable nature of these collaborations and the ways in which the European arrest warrant, Eurojust and the things on the list that was read out by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, are so vital in countering this really serious level of crime. If you can penetrate the dark web, it shows just how active this criminality is.

I strongly support Amendment 13, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, and other noble Lords, but it raises an issue. The issue is that, if we are going to use something like the European arrest warrant, it involves something different from the need for arbitration or for some supranational tribunal to deal with trading disputes, as the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said. This is of a different order. When we are dealing with something like the European arrest warrant, we are talking about the liberty of the subject. We are talking about people being arrested, kept in custody and transported from one place to another. The rights of the individual there are so significant that we have to have a court with highly trained judges at the apex of any legal system because people resist the possibility of being transferred for criminal trials to proceed.

I want to reiterate what the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said about the old days. It would be a frequent occurrence that attempts would be made to extradite people and it took years. People were able to resist extradition for years. I see the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, in his place. Once, many years ago, he led me in a case that involved lengthy extraditions and had gone on for years. The arrival of the arrest warrant put paid to that. The difference it has made has been considerable. The UK has extradited 1,000 people to other parts of Europe to be prosecuted for serious crimes and has received some 200 individuals from other places for serious crimes. I urge the Committee to think through the consequences of that. We need to have a court at the apex of this, and the court that is sought by the rest of Europe is the European Court of Justice, which already exists and knows and understands the nature of these processes. What do we do? Do we create some new court which has all the same powers and just give it a different name in order to appease those who do not like the European Court of Justice, or do we recognise that for this area there has to be the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice?

A number of amendments in this group are tabled in my name, and I want to refer the Committee to them. Amendment 99 relates to the protection of “protected persons”. This may be something that noble Lords are not really aware of, but we adopted the European protection order directive in 2014. This relates to difficulties which are faced mainly, but not exclusively, by women who are stalked or victimised, often by former partners, and who go to live in other parts of Europe. Across Europe we have developed victim protection orders which involve mutual recognition so that, if someone stalks someone to somewhere else but we have created a protection order in the UK, it can be immediately made effective in another country where someone has pursued the person who is the obsession at the end of their malign intent. Such victim orders are used not just in relation to domestic violence and the stalking that happens in relationships but in relation to other forms of stalking, for example, in witness protection issues or in trafficking. It is an area in which I have particular experience, and these orders are going to be vital in providing protection for people in different jurisdictions. I really hope that, in seeking to create the right kind of regime for us to operate across Europe in relation to these criminal matters, we also protect the victim protection order regime—the European protection order regulations—as well.

The other matter on which I have put forward an amendment, in which I am supported by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, and my noble friend Lord Judd, relates to justice and home affairs measures. I know it is the Government’s objective that some of these processes continue after departure. We are most concerned that there is a serious understanding of what mutual recognition means. There is some concern being expressed in other parts of Europe that we do not use the terms mutual recognition and harmonisation in quite the way that is intended when it comes to this collaboration on criminal and civil matters. I have spoken about this before in the House. It is about the fact that it is not enough to introduce European law into the UK, as some of these regulations require reciprocity of a very deep kind. It means that we will respect orders made in other countries and that they will respect orders that we have made here.

Think of the difference that it makes to a woman whose family are in Germany and who takes her children there to visit them, but who after a divorce is being harassed and stalked by her previous husband. She can get an order in her local court and know that when she goes to visit her family in Germany, the order will operate there too if she is pursued by her former—abusive and violent—partner. We know that this also happens in relation to matters such as access to children, where people can get maintenance orders in the local court: you can go down to the court in Bromley, get your order and it will be made effective in another country in Europe. It is so important that people do not have to instruct lawyers in other places, when they could ill afford to do so and thereby secure justice in the circumstances they find themselves in.

The mutuality there is of a very deep kind. Just introducing European law into our system and legislating for it will not be enough. What we really require is something that creates a regime that continues what has been established with great care over very many years.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab)]

My Lords, Amendment 209, which is in my name, follows directly from the remarks of my noble friend Lady Kennedy, so I thank my noble friend Lord Adonis for allowing me to slightly skip the order.

The amendment echoes the concerns of others, notably the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and my noble friend Lady Kennedy about the UK’s access to and participation in Eurojust, Europol, ECRIS and the European arrest warrant. This also includes the database of the Schengen Information System II and the European protection order—I think we must have covered them all between us. I want to look at this from the perspective of child protection. This amendment has implications for a huge area that includes child trafficking, child abduction, forced migration, sexual exploitation, criminal proceedings, online abuse and missing children—a long list of concerns, also mentioned by my noble friend and the noble Lord.

Queen’s Speech

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

Wednesday 28th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab)]

My Lords, there have been many excellent reports on Brexit from the House of Lords Select Committees. I declare membership of the Home Affairs Sub-Committee. But none of these committees has discussed the specific impact of Brexit on children. Today I shall call for government action. Children are our future and Brexit could influence that future without our children having had a say.

I am concerned about many aspects of children’s rights and welfare under Brexit and I am grateful to many charities and academics who have expressed similar concerns. I am particularly grateful to Professor Helen Stalford from the Children’s Rights Unit at Liverpool University for her incisive analyses. I am grateful to Eurochild for issuing, last week, a call to action on Brexit and for seeking dialogue with EU and UK negotiators.

I shall reflect briefly on three issues: children and employment, the rights of migrant children and family law. I shall touch on concerns about children from Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The main purpose of my speech today will be to call on the Government to set up a special investigation into the effect of Brexit on children, and to agree to meet interested experts and respond in detail to their questions.

First, on children and employment, following Brexit, the UK will be free to amend any domestic law or policy on employment equality. That could impact negatively on the children of workers and on child poverty rates. Workers under 18 could be affected by pregnancy and parental leave directives or health and safety standards. Migrant children will probably no longer fall under the EU free movement provisions unless a special arrangement is negotiated. They will no longer benefit from automatic rights of entry and residence, and will not necessarily have access to equal pay as they enter adolescence. Their parents may not be able to claim benefits for them and they may have to pay higher fees to access higher education.

The EU can ensure that public law decisions to protect children can be enforced in countries of which the child is a non-national. One advantage is cross-border recognition and the enforcement of family judgments, including contact and residence issues in member states and child maintenance arrangements. EU law places an emphasis on children’s rights and is quick and easy to apply. In the future, will we have to reach bilateral agreements on family law with other countries?

Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have all expressed reservations on Brexit, fearing, as a Scottish Government report says, fundamental change in public services, the law and the economy. YouthLink Scotland has called for young people to be heard in Brexit negotiations, and I agree. The Wales Observatory on Human Rights has pointed out the probability of the loss of EU structural funds and projects to tackle poverty and improve youth employment. The Children’s Law Centre in Northern Ireland fears the real possibility of destabilising the Good Friday agreement. An assumption of continued membership of the EU permeates the peace process and was not considered in the decision to hold the referendum. Many projects that support vulnerable young people in Northern Ireland are funded, at least potentially or in part, through the EU—as is the peace process itself. Over 600 children a day cross the border to attend school; many have cross-border health appointments.

I have related but a few examples of how child rights and welfare may be negatively affected by Brexit. We must now ensure that the calls for action are heard—calls to listen to children and young people, providing assurances that the existing rights of children are protected, not just in the UK but across Europe, and that the peace process in Northern Ireland is respected.

Brexit negotiations are proving to be lengthy, time-consuming and expensive. Many House of Lords Select Committee reports foresaw this. But in the midst of the turmoil we cannot risk the rights and welfare of children. If we do, we will not be forgiven—nor should we be. Surely it is better to slow down, think, consider options and get this right for children. I look forward to what the Minister has to say on this and to further discussions on this vital topic. Will the Government listen to concerns about Brexit and children? Will they ensure that the welfare of the child is paramount, as enshrined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child?

Arbitration and Mediation Services (Equality) Bill [HL]

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 27th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank and greatly admire the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, for her insistence and persistence in fighting for the rights of women under the law. It is interesting that no matter how many times the noble Baroness brings back the issue of mediation and arbitration to your Lordships’ House, so many of your Lordships not only attend but speak, and with increasing eloquence and determination. I shall be very brief today, because so many of the problems have been aired and so many points have been validly made.

The noble Baroness has consistently talked to women —mainly Muslim women—about their severe problems and their oppression under religiously sanctioned gender discrimination in this country. She has written many articles and reports on this subject, talked to many organisations, and has asked Governments to change the law in similar Bills, in 2012-13, 2015-16, and again now. As we know, the Government in 2016 established an independent review into the application of sharia law, which will report in 2017. I hope that it will take account of the important point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, that many Muslim women,

“are unaware of their legal rights”.

If they are unaware, how can they act?

The noble Baroness’s brilliant 2015 report for the Bow Group, A Parallel World, says it all. She gives numerous examples of discrimination from women and from organisations to illustrate her powerful case. She says in the preface to the report:

“I have sat and wept with those who are oppressed, abused and treated as second class citizens. One Muslim woman told me: ‘I feel betrayed by Britain. I came here to get away from this and the situation is worse here than in the country I escaped from’. This cannot be allowed to continue. Provisions must be introduced to ensure that the operation of Sharia law principles in the UK today is not undermining the rights of women and the rule of law”.


As the noble Baroness has consistently pointed out, she fights incredibly hard for women. Again, she points out:

“The Bill does not interfere in the internal theological affairs of religious groups. In a free society, and in accordance with the hard-fought tradition of freedom of religion and belief, individuals must be able to organise their affairs according to their own principles, whether religious or otherwise. However, attempting to operate a parallel legal jurisdiction and to allow the de facto creation of new legal structures and standards is unacceptable”,


in this country. She is asking for a positive response from the Government. I sincerely hope that she gets it. We shall be watching every move.