Children and Families Bill

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab)]

My Lords, I support Amendments 242 and 244 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, but ask the Committee’s permission to sit down while I speak. I also support my noble friend Lady Hughes in her forceful speech about early intervention.

During our consideration of the Bill, many concerns have been raised about services working together for the benefit of children. Indeed, an earlier amendment—we discussed it some days ago, or possibly some weeks ago—was specifically about promoting integration, with lead professionals taking a role in ensuring that integration happens. I remember—again, it was some time ago—the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, in one of her many excellent and wise contributions, saying that without data, strategy is not possible; the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, also hinted at that. I agree with that and I think that the amendment could support the development of a strategy for children and families at a local level.

The amendments tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, are an extension of that concept of integration and improving data sharing in children’s centres. The noble Earl has described the need for NHS trusts to share with authorities records of live births to parents resident in their area in order to facilitate the identification of and contact with new families through children’s centres and other early outreach services. To this end, as he said, this should include the format of arrangements, the safeguarding of information, the regularity of data transfer, timescales and safeguards against inappropriate sharing.

All this reminds me of a report that some noble Lords may remember, Every Child Matters, which came out in about 2004—I can see lots of nods. This was a consultation on what matters for children, followed by a government document, in the wake of the horrendous death of Victoria Climbié and the report by the noble Lord, Lord Laming, which concluded that the poor co-ordination of services, including health, police, education and social services, had contributed to that child and other children falling through the net. It was a seminal document. It had influence in involving children and young people in setting priorities and in getting services for children to work together, to look at their functions in working together and to talk to one another. This group of amendments shows that we need to look at all that again; we need to look at the integration of services.

As others have said, poor data sharing can prevent organisations, including children’s centres, from helping vulnerable children and their families. If they had birth data, they could address the needs of such families early. I remember one children’s centre that I visited in the north of England having courses for young mothers. These courses became a group support initiative to talk about breastfeeding, about bringing up babies and toddlers and about which services people could access—for example, classes on a variety of issues. Crèches had been set up at the centre. Sometimes the centre was able to offer intensive support for parents who had difficulties with finances, for example.

The organisation Action for Children has set out reasons for effective data-sharing systems and has listed some difficulties, which I hope the Minister will be able to address. Those difficulties include the fact that children’s centres may be split across district and health services; there may be no data-sharing protocols; and there may be a feeling that such systems are too resource-intensive. However, there are serious impacts in not sharing data. The noble Earl has listed some such impacts of delaying the identification of vulnerable children and their families and delaying help for such families.

When data sharing is effective—according to Action for Children, it is effective in 32% of children’s centres—local arrangements have been set up between health and the local authority. There have been meetings and good relationships between, for example, health visitors and midwives, and there has been early identification of vulnerable families and of children who are likely to have difficulties, such as those with disabilities. As others have said, this help should be offered early in order to be most effective.

One of the key issues is that data sharing forms a basis for people from various disciplines who support families to meet and to talk about the concerns, not just swap bits of paper. It has always seemed to me that people talking about issues to one another, either formally or informally, is a very good way of ensuring integrated support for families. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s reply.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield]

My Lords, I support Amendment 242, to which my name is attached. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, has already set out very clearly the arguments in favour of piloting the registration of births at children’s centres, but I will just confirm my personal support for this amendment.

Children’s centres do many good things, but one of their absolutely core values lies in their ability to reach out to some of the most vulnerable and disadvantaged groups: people who, for all sorts of reasons, are unlikely to enter into sustained contact with public services without help in doing so, but who are also the most likely to benefit from them. We have already heard the statistics from the recent children’s centre census from 4Children. That is encouraging in showing us that the widening reach is really happening and that more children’s centres are being successful in reaching out to some of the most disadvantaged. The location of birth registration services within children’s centres will really help with early intervention in the lives of disadvantaged children.

I am sure that all noble Lords in this Committee are well aware of the evidence of the huge importance of early intervention and how incredibly important what happens in the first three years of a child’s life is. Indeed, as I know from my work on the All-Party Group on Social Mobility, in some ways those first three years can almost determine life chances for a lifetime. They are absolutely critical. That is why I think that getting parents through the doors of children’s centres, ideally within six weeks of their child’s birth, and exposing them to the range of services, help and support available is critical. It is also vital to help nurture those early relationships between parents and professionals, which, again, can make such a difference. That is why I am absolutely delighted that encouraging parents to register children’s births at a local children and family centre is now part of Liberal Democrat party policy.

My final point is that the proposed birth registration pilot scheme should be seen as part of a wider strategy to provide more integrated and cohesive public services. Children’s centres not only provide childcare, as we talked about earlier, but a range of valuable help, including parenting sessions, health and well-being advice, information on jobs and employability, et cetera. For example, things such as co-locating health visitors within children’s centres enable parents to have the opportunity to speak to a health visitor about any concerns they may have, for example in relation to their child’s sleeping patterns, breastfeeding and their own health and well-being. Co-locating important services in this one-stop-shop way has a whole range of very powerful benefits. It should increase take-up and should also be value for money. It makes terribly good sense and is a real win-win. Can we try it out rather than just talk about it?

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

I apologise for addressing my noble friend Lady Jones as my noble friend Lady Hughes throughout my speech. They are not the same person.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, we all merge into one after a while. I start by emphasising to noble Lords that the Government believe that children’s centres provide a very important service and have a vital role to play in supporting outcomes for children and families.

I turn, first, to the issue of data sharing. We agree on the importance of information sharing. Clearly, professionals should work together to identify families who are in need of support and offer them that support. Indeed, the Department for Education’s statutory guidance for children’s centres is clear that health services and local authorities should share information, such as live birth data, with children’s centres on a regular basis where doing so enables professionals to work better with one another to provide services for families. Moreover, current legislation makes it clear that information can already be shared where there are local agreements and processes in place that meet the legal requirements about confidentiality, consent and security of information. Naturally, we wish to support information sharing between professionals. In order to encourage this, my colleagues at the Department of Health have undertaken to liaise with NHS England and other partners to promote the sharing of live birth data and to explore the practical issues.

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Moved by

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

245: After Clause 78, insert the following new Clause—
“Independence of the Children’s Commissioner
In Schedule 1 to the Children Act 2004 (Children’s Commissioner), in paragraph 1 (status) after sub-paragraph (2) insert—“(3) The Secretary of State shall not undermine the Children’s Commissioner’s independence and shall ensure that the Children’s Commissioner is under as few constraints as reasonably possible in determining—
(a) the Commissioner’s activities,(b) the Commissioner’s timetables, and(c) the Commissioner’s priorities.””

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 245, I will speak to Amendments 257 and 260 in this group and kick off what I think will be a useful discussion on the new arrangements for the Children’s Commissioner for England. I am sure that the amendments in the names of my noble friends Lady Hughes and Lady Jones and of other noble Lords will give rise to a pithy debate on this important issue.

The reforms to the role of the Children’s Commissioner for England have been welcomed by the Alliance for Reform of the Children’s Commissioner, which includes a number of significant children’s organisations. I am grateful to the department for the helpful note that we received on the Children’s Commissioner last week. I am not sure that it resolves all the issues, but hopefully we will have a useful discussion that will enable us to think through more of those issues.

As many noble Lords know, it was something of a struggle to get the then Government to agree to England having a Children’s Commissioner. Some people in this Room were instrumental in lobbying for the appointment and then contributed to the review of the Office of the Children’s Commissioner carried out by John Dunford in 2010. The review culminated in his report and recommendations, published in November of that year. One key recommendation—perhaps the key recommendation—was that there should be a focus on children’s rights in the work of the Children’s Commissioner. As a result, the new commissioner will take over the joint responsibilities of the Children’s Rights Director and the Children’s Commissioner.

The Bill can strengthen children’s rights generally. We have had, and will have in the future, debates on children’s rights in a variety of contexts. The Bill should reflect the Written Ministerial Statement of 6 December 2010, which made the commitment that the Government would give “due consideration” to the Convention on the Rights of the Child when proposing new law and policy. We still have a way to go with that. Many of John Dunford’s recommendations cannot be implemented without looking beyond the role, function and powers of the Children’s Commissioner and placing duties on public authorities and on Ministers. We will discuss that in later amendments.

The Children’s Commissioner will be a key force in safeguarding the rights and welfare of children and it is important that we get it right. There are three main issues: the appointment of the commissioner; the independence of the commissioner; and the promotion of children’s rights. The appointment of the Children’s Commissioner must be open, transparent and non-political in order for the commissioner to be sufficiently independent to champion children’s rights and to have credibility. The Children’s Commissioner is appointed by the Secretary of State but, as I understand it, is listed in the code of practice of the Commissioner for Public Appointments, so Parliament is involved in a pre-hearing process. However, the UN accreditation committee recommends that the involvement of Parliaments is provided for on the face of legislation rather than just being a political commitment. In Scotland and the Republic of Ireland, it is the national Parliament that appoints the commissioner. The degree of independence is critical in determining the success of this role. The new commissioner must be under as few constraints as possible in determining his or her activities, timetables and priorities. My amendments would see a clear legislative statement on such independence, which would bind future Governments.

In another place, MPs considered an amendment to require the Secretary of State not to interfere with the work of the Children’s Commissioner. The Government responded that the legislation already repeals provisions that currently allow the Secretary of State to direct the commissioner’s work, but that does not go as far as an explicit prohibition on interference. The Minister in another place cited the Equality and Human Rights Commission as an example of a body that is able to act independently. The legislation that set up the EHRC has similar provisions to those in my amendment. I welcome assurances that the Government will not interfere with decisions on priorities for the work of the commissioner, but such an assurance does not bind future Governments as a clear legislative statement would. The UN Committee on the Rights of the Child has made it clear that national human rights institutions for children should meet these standards.

The Minister may respond that the commissioner will have full membership of the European Network of Ombudspeople for Children. This is welcome, but it is not enough. The Children’s Commissioner should satisfy the Paris principles to the standard that the Children’s Commissioner should have the status of a national human rights institution.

Amendment 257 sets out criteria for the appointment of the Children’s Commissioner for England, stating that he or she must have adequate knowledge and experience in all matters regarding children, must involve children in decision-making and must be able to act independently of government. I am aware that this issue was discussed in another place and that the Minister stated that it would be desirable to draft the person specification at the time of appointment. That is fine so far as it goes, but setting out in legislation some objective minimum standards would be preferable to ensure that the person has the right skills and experience.

In another place, an amendment required the Secretary of State to have regard to the views of Parliament and others in appointing the Children’s Commissioner. The Minister circulated a note to the Public Bill Committee that set out how the appointment process would work. The Government indicated that it would not be convention to set out in legislation that Parliament should consider a particular matter. Amendment 260 would place a duty on the Secretary of State to have due regard to the views of any parliamentary committee that has published a view on a proposed appointment or removal from office of a Children’s Commissioner.

All these amendments would support the important principle that the Children’s Commissioner must be independent of government and must be well experienced in matters regarding the rights of the child. Who will be on the panel that interviews candidates and what are likely to be the selection criteria? I am not looking for an answer now, but I am interested. We in this House and children’s organisations will be watching the process with interest and concern. I beg to move.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 262, which has my name on it. I am speaking on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, who is very sorry that he is unable to be here.

I want to make a point about independence in support, in particular, of my noble friend’s Amendment 245. At Second Reading, many noble Lords raised concerns about the Office of the Children’s Commissioner for England receiving sufficient funding from government to carry out its functions effectively. The Minister subsequently wrote to noble Lords acknowledging the need for sufficient resources to give effect to the reformed office’s work. He went on to say that decisions involving funding will always need to be taken in the context of the prevailing economic circumstances and competing priorities for public funding. That is understood but, whatever the economic circumstances, such decisions must not compromise the independence of the commissioner that my noble friend talked about or his ability effectively to carry out his work.

Legislation should therefore set out appropriate safeguards, such as those contained in Amendment 262. There is a danger that, unless properly resourced, the changes proposed in the draft legislation will raise expectations about the commissioner’s potential impact that the office simply cannot meet. The adequacy of the budget will determine whether the commissioner is able effectively to promote and protect children’s rights. According to the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, it is the duty of states to make reasonable financial provision for the operation of national human rights institutions in the light of Article 4 of the convention. The mandating powers of national institutions may be meaningless or the exercise of their powers limited if the national institution does not have the means to operate effectively to discharge its powers. The Paris principles, mentioned by my noble friend, also underline the importance of ensuring that national human rights institutions have access to adequate resources. They state:

“The national institution shall have an infrastructure which is suited to the smooth conduct of its activities, in particular adequate funding … in order to be independent of the Government and not be subject to financial control which might affect its independence”.

The Dunford review drew attention to the fact that the Children’s Commissioner had a low budget compared to children’s national human rights institutions in other jurisdictions. At the time of the review, this country was spending 24p per child on the Children’s Commissioner compared to, for example, £1.89 in Ireland —hardly a richer country than this one—£1.27 in New Zealand and £3.74 in Northern Ireland. UNICEF undertook a global study of independent human rights institutions for children. It underlined that independence is the defining feature of such institutions and that sufficient and sustained financial resources are key to that independence.

On the issue of independence, I wish to raise another matter, which has been of concern to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, of which I am a member. In its report on the draft clauses preceding the Bill, the JCHR accepted the need for financial control of and public accountability for the public money spent by the Children’s Commissioner but was concerned about whether the degree of financial control exerted by the Government through the standard NDPB framework agreement was compatible with the requirement in the Paris principles that national human rights institutions should not be subject to financial control that might affect their independence. It therefore called, in December 2012, for the proposed new framework agreement between the OCC and DfE to be made available in draft as soon as possible so that it could be scrutinised for compatibility with the Paris principles requirement of effective independence from executive control.

The Government in their response promised to review the framework agreement in light of the committee’s comments and to make a copy of the revised document available for scrutiny. No new framework agreement had been published by the time the Bill was introduced, however. In the JCHR’s report on the Bill in June this year, it recommended that all the changes that had been made to the framework agreement between the Equality and Human Rights Commission and DCMS in order to safeguard the EHRC’s accreditation as an “A” status national human rights institution should also be made to the Children’s Commissioner’s framework agreement and it again asked for the revised framework agreement to be made available for scrutiny before the Bill reached Committee in the Lords.

With Committee stage fast approaching, but still no revised framework agreement published, the JCHR wrote again to the Minister on 30 October, asking the Government to make every effort to arrive at a revised agreement with the Children’s Commissioner and to make it available to Parliament before today’s debate on the proposed amendments to the Bill concerning the commissioner’s independence. Notwithstanding that request—or requests, in the plural—the Government have still not published a revised agreement. Towards the end of last week, they published and circulated a note summarising the main changes that will need to be made to the framework agreement when the Bill comes into force. These include a number of exemptions from efficiency controls that have been made in the EHRC’s revised framework agreement, which the Government say that they will “seek to replicate” in the Children’s Commissioner’s framework agreement.

The Government’s stated willingness to replicate the changes made to the EHRC’s framework agreement is welcome, but it is most regrettable that the revised agreement itself is still not available. As so often, the devil is in the detail. It will not be possible for Parliament to be sure that the framework agreement is compatible with the Paris principles until it has seen the text. It is not clear, for example, how the requirement of government approval of the commissioner’s marketing and advertising plan is compatible with independence when, as I understand it, efficiency controls, which must be satisfied for the plan to be approved, require such expenditure to be essential for the Government’s objectives, not the commissioner’s.

The same issue was resolved with the EHRC. I hope that it can be so with the Office of the Children’s Commissioner. Will the Minister give noble Lords his reassurance that he will discuss the detail of the framework agreement with the Office of the Children’s Commissioner as soon as possible and make a draft of the revised agreement available before Report, so that noble Lords can be satisfied on this crucial question of independence from inappropriate executive control?

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[Lord Nash]

We will take this away and consider it further. As regards the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, on accountability and to whom it should be, our view is that the commissioner should be wholly independent as regards his or her views and priorities from both government and Parliament. However, I accept that Parliament should be able to scrutinise what the commissioner does and have an opportunity to debate issues that he has raised.

I hope that my responses on these important points provide assurances to noble Lords and I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response. This has been an incredibly perceptive debate and noble Lords have provided a lot of expertise. My noble friend Lady Hughes said at the beginning of her speech that it is the right time to review the role of the Office of the Children’s Commissioner. I agree with that. We have experience of two commissioners, both of whom have put the voice of the child at the centre of activity and have done significant work with vulnerable children. The Minister listed some things that the Children’s Commissioner could do. However, as many noble Lords have pointed out, funding is an issue, and we need to look at that again.

Others have mentioned the scope of the commissioner’s remit, accountability, quality assurance and the JCHR. For me two key issues have come out of our discussions today to which I certainly want answers before Report. One is that we absolutely need the framework agreement before we get to Report. In fact, we need it some time in advance of getting to Report; otherwise, how can we debate this seriously? How can we put down sensible amendments if we do not have the detail of that framework agreement? Stemming from that, I need to think about—as I am sure others do—what should go in this legislation; obviously not in too much detail but issues have come up today that certainly need more consideration when we think about what goes in the legislation.

I hope that the issue of the framework agreement will be resolved long before Report. That will influence what we think should go in the legislation. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 245 withdrawn.

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[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

But because it was not an explicitly children’s rights-based institution, it did not have the status internationally that other children’s commissioners have. So this is a step forward and I am glad to be able to support the Government. In fact, I was one of those who criticised my own Government for failing to write in an explicit children’s rights-based remit.

The Joint Committee on Human Rights, of which I am a member, welcomed the reforms as,

“constituting a significant human rights enhancing measure”.

However, we believe that the reforms do not go quite far enough and therefore proposed this amendment. The intention is that the Bill should expressly define the rights of children in England to include the rights in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child for the purposes of defining the commissioner’s primary function. At present, the Bill simply requires the commissioner to “have regard” to these rights. I am sure noble Lords will agree that that is a much weaker formulation.

The recommendation that the commissioner’s primary purpose should be defined explicitly with reference to the UN convention should not be construed as just the icing on the cake, for it is about the ingredients of the cake itself. This was recognised in the Dunford report commissioned by the incoming coalition Government. It recommended that the new role of the Children’s Commissioner should include,

“promoting and protecting the rights of children under the UNCRC”,

so I am afraid that the Minister was not totally accurate when he said that the Government had taken on board all the recommendations of the Dunford report.

The UNICEF global study of independent human rights institutions for children underlined that:

“There is one non-negotiable attribute of all independent human rights institutions for children: a mandate rooted in the Convention on the Rights of the Child”.

However, the JCHR’s “negotiations” or dialogue with the Government on just such a mandate came to naught and the Bill retains this weak requirement simply to have regard to the convention. The Government’s original objection that the UNCRC has not been directly incorporated into UK law was met by our carefully worded amendment, which does not imply incorporation, as the Government now acknowledge. They then fell back on two arguments. The first was that,

“the UNCRC contains a broad mix of rights and aspirations, rather than a more classic formulation of rights such as those in the ECHR”.

Secondly, they argued that some UNCRC articles are broader than children’s rights as such and include, for example, parents’ rights or the state’s responsibility to create an environment in which children’s rights can be realised.

The committee was not persuaded by those arguments and responded:

“It is a matter of common consensus that the UNCRC contains some very important children’s rights. The fact that some of its provisions are couched in aspirational terms, or impose responsibilities and obligations on the State, does not detract from this fact”.

Indeed, these aspects of the convention are surely true of human rights treaties generally and have not deterred other states from incorporating the full convention into domestic law. In any event, the amendment is carefully worded with this possible objection in mind: it defines the rights of children to include, not the UNCRC itself, but “the rights in” the UNCRC.

As Carolyne Willow, a long-standing children’s rights expert, has argued, the suggestion that the reference to parents,

“somehow diminishes children’s rights, is muddled. Article 18(2) of the treaty sets out the basis for states supporting parents—in order to guarantee and promote the rights of children. This is no different from recognising and assisting carers in order to uphold the rights of disabled people, or guaranteeing support to adoptive parents as a means of securing the child’s right to a family life”.

The JCHR believes that the Children’s Commissioner,

“should be entrusted to interpret the UNCRC and to take a sensible and properly advised approach about the children’s rights that it protects”.

The Government’s refusal to accept our recommendation suggests that they do not trust the commissioner to do so. The arguments put up by the Government are weak and leave me puzzled as to why they are so resistant to embedding the commissioner’s welcome children’s rights-based remit in what the Alliance for Reform of the Children’s Commissioner describes as, “the authoritative international legal statute for children’s human rights”. I hope that the Minister will take this away and think again.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

My Lords, in this varied and lengthy group, I want to focus on Amendment 266A, although I support others to which my name is attached. The amendment states:

“Any person whose functions are of a public nature must in the exercise of his or her functions … respect, protect and fulfil children’s rights; and … seek … the views of children in matters affecting them”.

Here, it harks back to the Children’s Commissioner not having sole responsibility for children’s rights. Others have expressed powerful convictions that all children have rights, even though the rights of vulnerable children—for example, asylum seekers, trafficked children or those in custody—are sometimes neglected. What really concerns me here is that we seem to fail to grasp the issue of listening to children and seeking their contribution to improving systems which should work for them. I cannot understand why. Involving children in these matters which affect them has at least two functions: it not only helps children feel engaged and more likely to respond positively but helps make systems and structures better. It makes for better decisions about children. As I have said before, we have become better at listening to children and young people, but it is inconsistent. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, will know the answer to this much better than I do, but I wonder how much young people in custody are consulted. From all I hear, not very much.

Concern for child rights and consultation with children work in practice. I mentioned earlier the Every Child Matters report. Schools were at the centre of that and I want to give an example of how schools can improve school life and achievement by listening to, respecting and valuing the contribution of children. UNICEF’s Rights Respecting Schools programme is a resounding success according to an independent evaluation. It encourages child-driven polices on behaviour and school activities. At its heart are school councils and classroom discussions on rights and responsibilities.

It seems to me that any organisational system functions better if those within the system are consulted and involved. Children are totally capable of having a view about what is best for them, and many organisations—not only schools but children’s services, health services and youth clubs—do consult children and are the better for it. The state has an opportunity to task other bodies with the job of promoting and protecting children’s rights. A duty on public authorities to give due regard to children’s rights in their decision-making would ensure that all areas of government are aware of their obligations towards children.

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[Baroness Tyler of Enfield]

My Lords, my name is attached to Amendments 263 and 264. I want briefly to say why I feel so strongly that they are extremely important.

Like other noble Lords, I see smoking in cars primarily as a child protection issue. As we have heard, children’s lungs are smaller and they have faster breathing rates. That makes them particularly vulnerable to second-hand smoke, especially within the confines of a car. As we have heard, very often children are not able to stop adults smoking in their presence. Adult members of the public are protected by smoke-free legislation on public transport and in the workplace, but large numbers of children remain exposed to high concentrations of second-hand smoke when confined in family cars. I just do not think that is right.

My second point is that we simply cannot afford to wait any longer. We know that roughly one in five children reports being regularly exposed to second-hand smoke in cars. It has catastrophic health consequences. Finally, we know that there is very strong public support for this. In a recent survey, 80% of the public and 86% of children supported a ban, as do many health organisations.

Turning very briefly to standardised packaging, there is a very clear reason why people in the tobacco industry are always so opposed to amendments such as this. It is very straightforward. They know that the designer cigarette packet is a very effective advertising tool. Most worryingly, it is particularly effective on young people. I had many examples I was going to give; I shall reserve them for Report.

The other argument I would like to address is the one about the nanny state poking its nose into the lives of individuals. We are told that people know the risk and make an informed choice regarding whether or not to smoke. Of course, the problem is that the choices made by young people are not always informed. I am sure that we know from our personal experience how impressionable young people can be. I certainly do.

I remember going into a sweet shop aged about 14 or 15. There was a pack of cigarettes there. I will not give the name because I do not want to advertise it. I thought it was terribly elegant and glamorous and that if I bought that pack—which I did—I would be very elegant and glamorous. I do not think either of those held up, but really strong messages are coming across in that packaging. I have looked at the most up-to-date evidence. It is absolutely clear that standardised packs are less attractive to young people and improve the effectiveness of health warnings.

We have a duty to the children of this country to move on this issue once and for all. The time for talking is over and the time for action has arrived.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

My Lords, my name is on Amendment 263 and I shall be very brief indeed. We have just been discussing the Office of the Children’s Commissioner. We have just been talking about child protection. This also is a case of children’s rights. Children have the right to not be sitting in a smoke-filled car.

I was part of a debate on the Private Member’s Bill of the distinguished former surgeon, the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, who is here and will speak later on. He made a significant point. He said that awareness and behaviour change need to be coupled with legislation, and that smoking law at the moment does not cover cars.

The noble Lord, Lord Crisp, said that there are four questions to be asked. Is it dangerous? Yes. Are the dangers material and significant? Yes. Is it something that that affects other people? Yes. What are the downsides? They are modest. They are about having the freedom to smoke in a car when your children are present. It should not be allowed.

[Lord Ribeiro (Con)]

My Lords, I hear my name mentioned and I think I ought to say something very briefly. Your Lordships are influenced only by evidence. The evidence following the legislation in 2006 in Scotland and 2007 in England has already shown measurable effects in improving healthcare, particularly among non-smoking bar workers, in whom one study found an 89% reduction in cotinine concentration, which is a specific marker for tobacco smoke exposure.

That benefit should not be restricted to bar workers but should be the right of children who find themselves confined in cars where adults are smoking. I support this amendment very strongly. I hope that my noble friend the Minister will be minded to consider it. I realise that the Government have a programme for behavioural change and education and may wish to pursue that. The research, however, points to the fact that there is an improvement if we reduce second-hand smoke.