Women: Economic Freedom

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Excerpts

Tuesday 6th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am sorry; I missed the last part of the noble Baroness’s question but I shall certainly be happy to meet her.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Government address the ways in which universal credit reduces the economic freedom of many poorer women, partly because it is paid into a single account so we cannot be sure that the money goes to them, for themselves or any children, and partly because it creates a work disincentive for second earners, many of whom are still women? It does not support those women into paid work.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I think the thing here is to get women into work and undo their reliance on credit, and some of the initiatives that the Government have put into play help women in that regard. We have more people and therefore more women than ever in employment.

Women: Political and Public Office

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Excerpts

Tuesday 16th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, we want to make this Parliament one that is open and accessible to women no matter what their race, religion or background. Muslim women should be no different in that context. I hope that women, no matter what their background, will feel that Parliament is open for them. Of course, in our demographic we represent what people, particularly women, might aspire to.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, about a century ago the suffragette Hannah Mitchell said that we women fight with one hand tied behind us. We still do, because she was referring not just to childcare but to the care of older people, the responsibility for domestic housework and so forth, responsibilities that do not affect men’s ability to take part in political and public life. What are the Government doing to help make the sharing of care between men and women more equal?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think that the sharing of care has become more equal, but perhaps not as equal as many would wish it to be. As I said at the beginning, the GEO is commissioning a wide-ranging evidence review that will encompass the range of approaches that will be taken, both internationally—the noble Baroness, Lady Hussein-Ece, mentioned Sweden—and here at home to provide political parties with a variety of solutions that they can draw on. The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, is absolutely right to raise that flag of women being less likely to participate in public life, particularly in Parliament. It is more difficult to get women to stand as candidates in elections and we need to change that.

Tackling Financial Exclusion (Financial Exclusion Report)

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Excerpts

Monday 18th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, as an “immigrant” contributor to the debate I congratulate the committee on its report and its recognition of the link between financial exclusion and poverty. Echoing a number of committee members, I will focus my remarks on issues raised by the chapter on so-called welfare reform, starting with universal credit. In opening the Budget Statement debate, the Minister acknowledged “genuine concerns” about UC’s “operational delivery”—but I am afraid that the problems with UC point to more fundamental design flaws that need to be solved if UC is to work for claimants, many of whom are likely to be among the sizeable minority considered by the FCA to have low financial resilience.

The abolition of the waiting days and introduction of a housing benefit run-on period is of course welcome, but it still leaves a five-week waiting period for the main UC, mitigated only partially by repayable advance payments. The version of the Budget speech circulated to the media stated that reducing the delay at the end of the first-month assessment period,

“would mean compromising the principle of payments … made on the same day of the month … which is very important for claimants in managing their budgets”.

But do we know from claimants themselves whether that is more important than, say, a shorter wait or having a more flexible payment system than the very inflexible one created by monthly payments and assessments, in which a whole month’s entitlement is based on the claimant’s non-financial circumstances on a single day each month? Damien Hinds claimed that,

“monthly is the more sensible pattern”.—[Official Report, Commons, 5/12/17; col. 1001.]

But I am not sure how much sense it makes to claimants or how it is conducive to smooth budgeting.

In her UC debate, my noble friend Lady Hollis of Heigham observed that the aim is,

“to moralise some of the most marginal in society into behaving like middle-class salaried professionals resilient with savings”.—[Official Report, 16/11/17; col. 2129.]

In arguing that monthly payments mirror work, Ministers refuse to acknowledge that this is not the world of work typically experienced by claimants. Nearly three-fifths of those who moved from paid work onto UC had been paid fortnightly or weekly, according to the Resolution Foundation. The foundation criticised “unnecessarily poor policy choices”, flowing in part,

“from misguided attempts at concentrating on altering human behaviour rather than supporting people in need”.

In the past, I think Conservatives might have denounced such misguided attempts as social engineering.

As we have heard, the Northern Irish and Scottish Administrations have listened to the concerns about monthly payments. Also in Scotland, couples may opt for split payments without fuss. The payment of UC into one account could undermine the financial resilience and capability of some women, especially those subjected to domestic violence, even where payment is into a joint account, as research shows that joint accounts provide no guarantee that the money reaches individual partners. It is disappointing that the Government rejected the recommendation of the Joint Committee on Human Rights—I was a member at the time—that the DWP should use UC rollout to test different payment arrangements to protect women’s financial autonomy. It is also disappointing that they appear to have rejected proposals, including for a safe interim payment, submitted by Policy in Practice—run by one of UC’s architects. This would have speeded up the first payment and enabled fortnightly payments without the potential difficulties raised by Ministers. Even if the majority of claimants prove to be comfortable with monthly payments, as the Minister argued in a recent debate on debt, what about the minority who are not?

The Government’s response to the committee lays great emphasis on alternative payment arrangements, but these are at the discretion of the UC agent or work coach. I do not find very convincing the argument that this is more effective than giving claimants the right to more frequent payments because it strengthens the relationship with work coaches. As it is, those who struggle will be labelled poor budgeters even if they were previously very efficient budgeters. They will be offered help with budgeting, requiring a whole new edifice of support.

This brings me to universal support, which was mentioned in the committee’s report. In its evidence to the Work and Pensions Committee, Citizens Advice listed a catalogue of problems. They included: variable delivery because of a lack of published minimum standards, often resulting in over-restrictive scope; ineffective referral mechanisms; and a lack of co-ordination. An updated framework was promised for autumn 2014 but has still not appeared. A local authority source advised me of fears that DWP is drawing conclusions about the level of support needs based largely on the experience of UC Live, which has involved the claimant cohort least likely to have such needs. In the debt debate, I asked the Minister to ask DWP to provide us with a report on how universal support was working—but answer came there none. May I now repeat the request, noting that similar questions in the UC debate also went unanswered?

Not only does universal support appear inadequate to the task but, as predicted in your Lordships’ House, the replacement of the Social Fund by discretionary local welfare assistance schemes, without any ring-fenced funding, has meant that in many areas it is no longer an alternative source of support because many authorities have closed or significantly cut back their schemes. According to the Centre for Responsible Credit, this is leaving some people facing destitution for lengthy periods of time.

While acknowledging examples of good practice, the committee rightly expressed concern about the funding outlook. Shelter and the Longleigh Foundation point out that since specific central funding for the schemes was ended last year, councils,

“have to find the necessary funding from within their existing, and shrinking, budgets”.

They warn that,

“there is absolutely no other emergency fund that is flexible enough to help people in financial crisis and prevent, or relieve, homelessness”.

Yet when I and others voiced such concerns in Oral Questions last Monday, there was an absolute refusal to acknowledge the seriousness of what was happening and to respond to requests for an evaluation of the impact of the changes. How can a Government who extol the importance of responsibility be so irresponsible as to wash their hands of all responsibility for the outcome of this reform?

Finally, the Government’s response to the committee’s call for,

“a detailed, comprehensive cumulative impact study”,

of how social security changes,

“might have adversely affected financial wellbeing and inclusion”,

is woefully inadequate. If the Women’s Budget Group and the Equality and Human Rights Commission can carry out such analyses, why cannot the Government, who have the ultimate responsibility for the impact of their legislation on the well-being of their citizens?

Perhaps the answer lies in the sobering picture painted by these independent studies, which show the negative impacts analysed by gender, disability and ethnicity as well as income. This was summed up by the EHRC, which said:

“Poorest hit hardest by tax, social security and public spending reforms”.


With a cumulative total of £27 billion or more in social security cuts due to have taken effect by the end of the decade, I fear that the outlook is an endless bleak midwinter, marked by more financial exclusion, hardship and debt.

Household Debt

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Excerpts

Monday 13th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the right reverend Prelate, not least as I am unable to take part in Thursday’s debate on universal credit. It is on universal credit that I want to focus, because, as Citizens Advice and the National Federation of ALMOs have warned, UC is exacerbating household debt and rent arrears.

It is hardly news that the built-in six-week wait for the first UC payment is the source of many of the immediate problems being reported. It is therefore encouraging that there are strong hints that the Government will think again and reduce that wait to four weeks, as recommended by the Work and Pensions Committee. However, at the risk of appearing ungrateful, I fear that, while it will mitigate UC’s problems, it will not solve them.

Even a four-week wait will cause serious difficulties for many people moving on to UC. The Citizens Advice survey found that only one in six were able to rely on their own resources from savings or final wages to tide them over. This is not surprising given that the FCA found that nearly one-third of UK adults show low financial resilience for reasons such as inability to cover living expenses for even a week if they lost their main source of household income. Recent evidence from KPMG, the Living Wage Foundation and StepChange underlines the extent of debt and reliance on high-cost credit such as payday loans just to get by among those in low paid and/or insecure employment. Do the Government have any information about the number of people claiming UC who are already in debt or arrears? Even if not in debt, they are unlikely to have savings to fall back on, as was clear from the impact statement on the increase in the number of waiting days.

Despite the Government’s assurances, additional payments are not the answer; they are deductible loans and a recent Smith Institute study found reluctance to borrow from the Government, as they saw it, among some UC claimants. Beyond the six-week wait lies a more fundamental problem: the monthly assessment and payment of UC. The Government insist on this on the grounds that it will increase financial responsibility and readiness for the labour market, but the latest ONS statistics show that nearly one-quarter of those in the lowest pay quintile are still paid more frequently than monthly and according to the Resolution Foundation nearly three-fifths of new UC claimants moving from paid work in the last tax year had been paid more frequently than monthly. Those in the Citizens’ Advice survey who were struggling with monthly payments faced an increased risk of financial hardship. While the majority might be able to cope, some are clearly finding it really difficult. At the very least why can they not be given the choice to receive fortnightly payments, as in Scotland? Instead, those who struggle are offered help with budgeting, which is quite insulting to those who managed their money reasonably when it was received more frequently.

This brings me to the issue of universal support. In the recent Commons debate, the Minister responded to lain Duncan Smith’s call for,

“extra effort, focus—and money, when necessary”—[Official Report, Commons, 18/10/17; col. 883]—

for the rollout of universal support alongside UC, with an assurance of the Government’s continued focus on it and recognition of its “absolute value”. However, when I talk to people working on the ground they just laugh at the mention of universal support and say that the resources are quite inadequate and its remit too restrictive. Will the Minister ask the DWP to provide us with a report on how universal support is working? Not only does universal support appear inadequate to the task but, as predicted in your Lordships’ House, the replacement of the Social Fund by discretionary local welfare assistance schemes without any ring-fenced funding has meant that in many areas this is no longer an alternative source of support in face of debt, because many authorities have closed or significantly cut back on their schemes. According to the Centre for Responsible Credit this,

“has left people facing destitution for lengthy periods of time”.

This underlines how we need to put the rollout of UC in the wider context of social security cuts since 2010, totalling a cumulative £27 billion a year by 2020-21. Analysis from a number of organisations indicates that these cuts, including and especially cuts to UC itself, will have a seriously adverse impact on child poverty. This can only mean that the problem of debt and arrears will get worse, with all the consequent human suffering and adverse effects on physical and mental health that this entails. It is in the Government’s hands to prevent such an outcome, starting in next week’s Budget.

Syria: Refugees

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

We certainly agree that there ought to be wider access from the region. That was of course exactly the outcome which came from the Immigration Act which we passed, and we have set up a scheme to broaden it to the Middle East and north Africa and to bring more children from there. People fleeing genocide are in fear and in need of protection: that is the definition by which they qualify for protection under international humanitarian law and, with the UNHCR, that is what we are working to deliver.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, given the ongoing Syrian crisis, will the Government reconsider their decision not to grant refugee status to resettled Syrian refugees so that they can enjoy the full rights and security of refugee status?

[Lord Bates]

We give them humanitarian protection, which is broadly the same thing. I know what the noble Baroness will say, but what we have is people in acute need and we want to get them here as quickly as possible. Humanitarian protection is the vehicle by which we can do so. If we first have to go all the way through the route of establishing refugee status for a lot of people who have no identification papers, it means they are at risk for longer. That is why we have chosen to take that particular route, to ensure that we can get people here and give them the help they need as quickly as possible.

Women and Girls: HIV

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Excerpts

Tuesday 1st December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, my noble friend is right: we want to see the pandemic eliminated by 2030. We know that we are a long way from achieving that but we have to do so. When I answered an earlier question, I alluded to the need to focus very much on low-income, high-burden countries that are unable to self-finance. We have to make treatment accessible to the very people who need it and who do not always know the best route to it. We are working with our partners globally, through all the various institutions, to try to eliminate HIV infections by 2030.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, turning to the Answer to the Question from my noble friend, my understanding is that public health funding is being cut. Therefore, can the Minister explain how the Government will ensure that local authorities meet the duties that she spelled out?

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, I think I made it clear in my earlier response that local authorities have a mandatory duty to ensure that those services are accessible.

Syrian Refugees: Food Aid

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover]

We have to work with the Government of Syria, as my noble friend recognises, to get aid into Syria. There have been all sorts of access problems, which we are constantly working to resolve. He will know how challenging that is because of the variety of different groups in different places, which means that you cannot, for example, have safe corridors. However, that is an ongoing problem on which the United Nations is leading and working extremely hard.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, last week a group of major charities wrote an open letter to the Prime Minister in the Independent. They welcomed the aid that the British Government are giving to Syria but said that aid is no substitute for accepting a reasonable number of refugees into this country. As I understand it, only 50 to 100 refugees have been resettled through the resettlement programme, which is far fewer than originally envisaged. At the pledging conference in Geneva, will the Government pledge to increase that number in response to that letter?

[Baroness Northover]

Clearly, the situation with refugees right across the region is extremely challenging. However, the United Kingdom’s emphasis is to try to make sure that the situation in Syria and around is alleviated. We are putting a huge amount of support, as the noble Baroness has recognised—I thank her for that—into those countries surrounding Syria. What is needed is to try to bring this incredibly challenging crisis to an end so that people are safe within their own country. We do not underestimate the challenge of that.

Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Excerpts

Tuesday 17th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover]

Some of the answers I have just given are relevant here. I point out that we agree with the strategy of the previous Government. The noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock, spoke in answer to my noble friend Lord Lester in 2010, pointing out the resources required to get such an expert in place and the need to prioritise. Meg Munn MP said that sometimes you need to make,

“difficult decisions about which bodies to seek election for”.—[Official Report, Commons, 29/4/08; col. 375W.]

We agree. The important thing here is the promotion of women’s rights, which we are doing at a number of different levels in the way the noble Baroness experienced last week at the summit.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, last week’s summit was very successful and very welcome. However, the Foreign Secretary was challenged about what some argue is the hypocrisy in the treatment of women asylum seekers who have suffered sexual violence in this country. The Foreign Secretary said that he would look into it. Can the Minister say what steps are now being taken?

[Baroness Northover]

There were some very curious comments regarding last week’s summit. The noble Baroness is quite right to make sure that what we do in the United Kingdom as well as what we do internationally is consistent and to the highest standards. From answers I have been briefed on for other issues, I know that the Home Office takes extremely seriously treating sensitively and appropriately those who come to seek asylum who have suffered sexual violence overseas. I am happy to write to her with further details. However, what I found astonishing were some of the comments in the press on last week’s summit, which I thought was groundbreaking.

Children and Families Bill

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 243 because it throws into the ring just how absurd this situation is.

Alas, we all know that this sort of action and reaction exists in this country. Female genital mutilation is exactly the same thing; it is happening, it has been happening. We turn a blind eye. We do not want to offend certain organisations and people. We are all against it, of course. The very first Minister I heard who actually understood what was going on completely denounced it, but even that led to no action being taken—you see what we are facing.

What we have heard today should make us stand up and decide in favour of some real action. The amendment has put us on the spot: we should have done so. It certainly should put the Government on the spot, if I may say so, because it is now time for some much more positive action in this respect—and I hope that they will rise to the challenge.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, I will speak very briefly in support of Amendment 246.

I cannot see any justification for excluding part-time educational institutions. Corporal punishment is corporal punishment; the impact on the child is the same, whether it takes place in a full-time or a part-time educational institution. Therefore, I hope the Minister will support the amendment—or, if not, will explain why.

[Lord Storey (LD)]

I will speak to Amendment 246, which I have also put my name to, and I thank my noble friend Baroness Walmsley for the detailed way in which she spoke to the amendment.

We were probably all watching Children in Need on Saturday. We saw young children in all sorts of situations. The idea that you respond to children who misbehave with corporal punishment beggars belief. I was teaching— in 1987, I think it was—when corporal punishment in schools was abolished. There were all sorts of dire warnings about what would happen. In fact, nothing happened. It made schools focus on proper child behaviour approaches.

I did not know, at that time, that the 1987 legislation did not include part-time institutions. I think that beggars belief. Any hitting of children, any corporal punishment, is child abuse. There is no other way to describe it. Like the noble Baroness, I would be interested to know, when the Minister replies, why we cannot take that next step, to make sure that corporal punishment is banned, outlawed, not allowed, in any establishment, whether part-time or otherwise.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 245, I will speak to Amendments 257 and 260 in this group and kick off what I think will be a useful discussion on the new arrangements for the Children’s Commissioner for England. I am sure that the amendments in the names of my noble friends Lady Hughes and Lady Jones and of other noble Lords will give rise to a pithy debate on this important issue.

The reforms to the role of the Children’s Commissioner for England have been welcomed by the Alliance for Reform of the Children’s Commissioner, which includes a number of significant children’s organisations. I am grateful to the department for the helpful note that we received on the Children’s Commissioner last week. I am not sure that it resolves all the issues, but hopefully we will have a useful discussion that will enable us to think through more of those issues.

As many noble Lords know, it was something of a struggle to get the then Government to agree to England having a Children’s Commissioner. Some people in this Room were instrumental in lobbying for the appointment and then contributed to the review of the Office of the Children’s Commissioner carried out by John Dunford in 2010. The review culminated in his report and recommendations, published in November of that year. One key recommendation—perhaps the key recommendation—was that there should be a focus on children’s rights in the work of the Children’s Commissioner. As a result, the new commissioner will take over the joint responsibilities of the Children’s Rights Director and the Children’s Commissioner.

The Bill can strengthen children’s rights generally. We have had, and will have in the future, debates on children’s rights in a variety of contexts. The Bill should reflect the Written Ministerial Statement of 6 December 2010, which made the commitment that the Government would give “due consideration” to the Convention on the Rights of the Child when proposing new law and policy. We still have a way to go with that. Many of John Dunford’s recommendations cannot be implemented without looking beyond the role, function and powers of the Children’s Commissioner and placing duties on public authorities and on Ministers. We will discuss that in later amendments.

The Children’s Commissioner will be a key force in safeguarding the rights and welfare of children and it is important that we get it right. There are three main issues: the appointment of the commissioner; the independence of the commissioner; and the promotion of children’s rights. The appointment of the Children’s Commissioner must be open, transparent and non-political in order for the commissioner to be sufficiently independent to champion children’s rights and to have credibility. The Children’s Commissioner is appointed by the Secretary of State but, as I understand it, is listed in the code of practice of the Commissioner for Public Appointments, so Parliament is involved in a pre-hearing process. However, the UN accreditation committee recommends that the involvement of Parliaments is provided for on the face of legislation rather than just being a political commitment. In Scotland and the Republic of Ireland, it is the national Parliament that appoints the commissioner. The degree of independence is critical in determining the success of this role. The new commissioner must be under as few constraints as possible in determining his or her activities, timetables and priorities. My amendments would see a clear legislative statement on such independence, which would bind future Governments.

In another place, MPs considered an amendment to require the Secretary of State not to interfere with the work of the Children’s Commissioner. The Government responded that the legislation already repeals provisions that currently allow the Secretary of State to direct the commissioner’s work, but that does not go as far as an explicit prohibition on interference. The Minister in another place cited the Equality and Human Rights Commission as an example of a body that is able to act independently. The legislation that set up the EHRC has similar provisions to those in my amendment. I welcome assurances that the Government will not interfere with decisions on priorities for the work of the commissioner, but such an assurance does not bind future Governments as a clear legislative statement would. The UN Committee on the Rights of the Child has made it clear that national human rights institutions for children should meet these standards.

The Minister may respond that the commissioner will have full membership of the European Network of Ombudspeople for Children. This is welcome, but it is not enough. The Children’s Commissioner should satisfy the Paris principles to the standard that the Children’s Commissioner should have the status of a national human rights institution.

Amendment 257 sets out criteria for the appointment of the Children’s Commissioner for England, stating that he or she must have adequate knowledge and experience in all matters regarding children, must involve children in decision-making and must be able to act independently of government. I am aware that this issue was discussed in another place and that the Minister stated that it would be desirable to draft the person specification at the time of appointment. That is fine so far as it goes, but setting out in legislation some objective minimum standards would be preferable to ensure that the person has the right skills and experience.

In another place, an amendment required the Secretary of State to have regard to the views of Parliament and others in appointing the Children’s Commissioner. The Minister circulated a note to the Public Bill Committee that set out how the appointment process would work. The Government indicated that it would not be convention to set out in legislation that Parliament should consider a particular matter. Amendment 260 would place a duty on the Secretary of State to have due regard to the views of any parliamentary committee that has published a view on a proposed appointment or removal from office of a Children’s Commissioner.

All these amendments would support the important principle that the Children’s Commissioner must be independent of government and must be well experienced in matters regarding the rights of the child. Who will be on the panel that interviews candidates and what are likely to be the selection criteria? I am not looking for an answer now, but I am interested. We in this House and children’s organisations will be watching the process with interest and concern. I beg to move.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 262, which has my name on it. I am speaking on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, who is very sorry that he is unable to be here.

I want to make a point about independence in support, in particular, of my noble friend’s Amendment 245. At Second Reading, many noble Lords raised concerns about the Office of the Children’s Commissioner for England receiving sufficient funding from government to carry out its functions effectively. The Minister subsequently wrote to noble Lords acknowledging the need for sufficient resources to give effect to the reformed office’s work. He went on to say that decisions involving funding will always need to be taken in the context of the prevailing economic circumstances and competing priorities for public funding. That is understood but, whatever the economic circumstances, such decisions must not compromise the independence of the commissioner that my noble friend talked about or his ability effectively to carry out his work.

Legislation should therefore set out appropriate safeguards, such as those contained in Amendment 262. There is a danger that, unless properly resourced, the changes proposed in the draft legislation will raise expectations about the commissioner’s potential impact that the office simply cannot meet. The adequacy of the budget will determine whether the commissioner is able effectively to promote and protect children’s rights. According to the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, it is the duty of states to make reasonable financial provision for the operation of national human rights institutions in the light of Article 4 of the convention. The mandating powers of national institutions may be meaningless or the exercise of their powers limited if the national institution does not have the means to operate effectively to discharge its powers. The Paris principles, mentioned by my noble friend, also underline the importance of ensuring that national human rights institutions have access to adequate resources. They state:

“The national institution shall have an infrastructure which is suited to the smooth conduct of its activities, in particular adequate funding … in order to be independent of the Government and not be subject to financial control which might affect its independence”.

The Dunford review drew attention to the fact that the Children’s Commissioner had a low budget compared to children’s national human rights institutions in other jurisdictions. At the time of the review, this country was spending 24p per child on the Children’s Commissioner compared to, for example, £1.89 in Ireland —hardly a richer country than this one—£1.27 in New Zealand and £3.74 in Northern Ireland. UNICEF undertook a global study of independent human rights institutions for children. It underlined that independence is the defining feature of such institutions and that sufficient and sustained financial resources are key to that independence.

On the issue of independence, I wish to raise another matter, which has been of concern to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, of which I am a member. In its report on the draft clauses preceding the Bill, the JCHR accepted the need for financial control of and public accountability for the public money spent by the Children’s Commissioner but was concerned about whether the degree of financial control exerted by the Government through the standard NDPB framework agreement was compatible with the requirement in the Paris principles that national human rights institutions should not be subject to financial control that might affect their independence. It therefore called, in December 2012, for the proposed new framework agreement between the OCC and DfE to be made available in draft as soon as possible so that it could be scrutinised for compatibility with the Paris principles requirement of effective independence from executive control.

The Government in their response promised to review the framework agreement in light of the committee’s comments and to make a copy of the revised document available for scrutiny. No new framework agreement had been published by the time the Bill was introduced, however. In the JCHR’s report on the Bill in June this year, it recommended that all the changes that had been made to the framework agreement between the Equality and Human Rights Commission and DCMS in order to safeguard the EHRC’s accreditation as an “A” status national human rights institution should also be made to the Children’s Commissioner’s framework agreement and it again asked for the revised framework agreement to be made available for scrutiny before the Bill reached Committee in the Lords.

With Committee stage fast approaching, but still no revised framework agreement published, the JCHR wrote again to the Minister on 30 October, asking the Government to make every effort to arrive at a revised agreement with the Children’s Commissioner and to make it available to Parliament before today’s debate on the proposed amendments to the Bill concerning the commissioner’s independence. Notwithstanding that request—or requests, in the plural—the Government have still not published a revised agreement. Towards the end of last week, they published and circulated a note summarising the main changes that will need to be made to the framework agreement when the Bill comes into force. These include a number of exemptions from efficiency controls that have been made in the EHRC’s revised framework agreement, which the Government say that they will “seek to replicate” in the Children’s Commissioner’s framework agreement.

The Government’s stated willingness to replicate the changes made to the EHRC’s framework agreement is welcome, but it is most regrettable that the revised agreement itself is still not available. As so often, the devil is in the detail. It will not be possible for Parliament to be sure that the framework agreement is compatible with the Paris principles until it has seen the text. It is not clear, for example, how the requirement of government approval of the commissioner’s marketing and advertising plan is compatible with independence when, as I understand it, efficiency controls, which must be satisfied for the plan to be approved, require such expenditure to be essential for the Government’s objectives, not the commissioner’s.

The same issue was resolved with the EHRC. I hope that it can be so with the Office of the Children’s Commissioner. Will the Minister give noble Lords his reassurance that he will discuss the detail of the framework agreement with the Office of the Children’s Commissioner as soon as possible and make a draft of the revised agreement available before Report, so that noble Lords can be satisfied on this crucial question of independence from inappropriate executive control?

--- Later in debate ---

We will discuss in detail in the next group of amendments the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, on the active involvement of children in decision-making. I am glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, found the note on our intentions in revising a framework agreement helpful. I am pleased that she has put on record our commitment to replicate specific provisions that have been agreed in respect of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission. I can give an assurance that Parliament will be invited to comment on the revised draft agreement at the appropriate time. We will liaise with the commission in producing a new version and will provide an update on Report.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

I am sorry to interrupt but perhaps the Minister can say what he considers to be the appropriate time. I suggest that it is before Report.

[Lord Nash]

We will provide an update on Report but the appropriate time is after Royal Assent.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

I am sorry but the point is that the devil is in the detail, as I said, and Report, or possibly Third Reading, would be the last opportunity for parliamentarians to comment in a way that might affect the outcome. After Royal Assent seems rather late.

[Lord Nash]

We will take this away and consider it further. As regards the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, on accountability and to whom it should be, our view is that the commissioner should be wholly independent as regards his or her views and priorities from both government and Parliament. However, I accept that Parliament should be able to scrutinise what the commissioner does and have an opportunity to debate issues that he has raised.

I hope that my responses on these important points provide assurances to noble Lords and I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

I am well aware that a well qualified Children’s Commissioner will be perfectly capable of identifying which groups of children should be regarded as vulnerable. However, if in future anyone should question whether a commissioner should give advice or assistance to trafficked children or those in custody, it would certainly make the matter very clear if my amendment were to be incorporated in the Bill—or if I get a clear statement from the Minister. Alternatively, perhaps my noble friend can explain that all the children covered by Amendment 256 are included in the duties and powers of the reformed OCCE.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 252 in a group of amendments that are largely designed to strengthen the role of the Office of the Children’s Commissioner for England. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, whom I thank for her support on this amendment, my starting point is to applaud the ways in which the Bill already strengthens the role of the Children’s Commissioner, in particular through the incorporation of an explicit children’s rights-based remit. I therefore have to part company with the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, on that—although I very much agree with him on his point about resources.

[Viscount Eccles]

Nothing in the 2004 Act would prevent the commissioner saying anything that she wants to say, or investigating anything that she wants to investigate, in the area of rights. My point about it being stated in the Bill is that it is a move towards creating another national human rights institution. The question to the Government is: is that what they are going to do? If they are not, there is nothing wrong with the 2004 Act.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

But because it was not an explicitly children’s rights-based institution, it did not have the status internationally that other children’s commissioners have. So this is a step forward and I am glad to be able to support the Government. In fact, I was one of those who criticised my own Government for failing to write in an explicit children’s rights-based remit.

The Joint Committee on Human Rights, of which I am a member, welcomed the reforms as,

“constituting a significant human rights enhancing measure”.

However, we believe that the reforms do not go quite far enough and therefore proposed this amendment. The intention is that the Bill should expressly define the rights of children in England to include the rights in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child for the purposes of defining the commissioner’s primary function. At present, the Bill simply requires the commissioner to “have regard” to these rights. I am sure noble Lords will agree that that is a much weaker formulation.

The recommendation that the commissioner’s primary purpose should be defined explicitly with reference to the UN convention should not be construed as just the icing on the cake, for it is about the ingredients of the cake itself. This was recognised in the Dunford report commissioned by the incoming coalition Government. It recommended that the new role of the Children’s Commissioner should include,

“promoting and protecting the rights of children under the UNCRC”,

so I am afraid that the Minister was not totally accurate when he said that the Government had taken on board all the recommendations of the Dunford report.

The UNICEF global study of independent human rights institutions for children underlined that:

“There is one non-negotiable attribute of all independent human rights institutions for children: a mandate rooted in the Convention on the Rights of the Child”.

However, the JCHR’s “negotiations” or dialogue with the Government on just such a mandate came to naught and the Bill retains this weak requirement simply to have regard to the convention. The Government’s original objection that the UNCRC has not been directly incorporated into UK law was met by our carefully worded amendment, which does not imply incorporation, as the Government now acknowledge. They then fell back on two arguments. The first was that,

“the UNCRC contains a broad mix of rights and aspirations, rather than a more classic formulation of rights such as those in the ECHR”.

Secondly, they argued that some UNCRC articles are broader than children’s rights as such and include, for example, parents’ rights or the state’s responsibility to create an environment in which children’s rights can be realised.

The committee was not persuaded by those arguments and responded:

“It is a matter of common consensus that the UNCRC contains some very important children’s rights. The fact that some of its provisions are couched in aspirational terms, or impose responsibilities and obligations on the State, does not detract from this fact”.

Indeed, these aspects of the convention are surely true of human rights treaties generally and have not deterred other states from incorporating the full convention into domestic law. In any event, the amendment is carefully worded with this possible objection in mind: it defines the rights of children to include, not the UNCRC itself, but “the rights in” the UNCRC.

As Carolyne Willow, a long-standing children’s rights expert, has argued, the suggestion that the reference to parents,

“somehow diminishes children’s rights, is muddled. Article 18(2) of the treaty sets out the basis for states supporting parents—in order to guarantee and promote the rights of children. This is no different from recognising and assisting carers in order to uphold the rights of disabled people, or guaranteeing support to adoptive parents as a means of securing the child’s right to a family life”.

The JCHR believes that the Children’s Commissioner,

“should be entrusted to interpret the UNCRC and to take a sensible and properly advised approach about the children’s rights that it protects”.

The Government’s refusal to accept our recommendation suggests that they do not trust the commissioner to do so. The arguments put up by the Government are weak and leave me puzzled as to why they are so resistant to embedding the commissioner’s welcome children’s rights-based remit in what the Alliance for Reform of the Children’s Commissioner describes as, “the authoritative international legal statute for children’s human rights”. I hope that the Minister will take this away and think again.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

My Lords, in this varied and lengthy group, I want to focus on Amendment 266A, although I support others to which my name is attached. The amendment states:

“Any person whose functions are of a public nature must in the exercise of his or her functions … respect, protect and fulfil children’s rights; and … seek … the views of children in matters affecting them”.

Here, it harks back to the Children’s Commissioner not having sole responsibility for children’s rights. Others have expressed powerful convictions that all children have rights, even though the rights of vulnerable children—for example, asylum seekers, trafficked children or those in custody—are sometimes neglected. What really concerns me here is that we seem to fail to grasp the issue of listening to children and seeking their contribution to improving systems which should work for them. I cannot understand why. Involving children in these matters which affect them has at least two functions: it not only helps children feel engaged and more likely to respond positively but helps make systems and structures better. It makes for better decisions about children. As I have said before, we have become better at listening to children and young people, but it is inconsistent. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, will know the answer to this much better than I do, but I wonder how much young people in custody are consulted. From all I hear, not very much.

Concern for child rights and consultation with children work in practice. I mentioned earlier the Every Child Matters report. Schools were at the centre of that and I want to give an example of how schools can improve school life and achievement by listening to, respecting and valuing the contribution of children. UNICEF’s Rights Respecting Schools programme is a resounding success according to an independent evaluation. It encourages child-driven polices on behaviour and school activities. At its heart are school councils and classroom discussions on rights and responsibilities.

It seems to me that any organisational system functions better if those within the system are consulted and involved. Children are totally capable of having a view about what is best for them, and many organisations—not only schools but children’s services, health services and youth clubs—do consult children and are the better for it. The state has an opportunity to task other bodies with the job of promoting and protecting children’s rights. A duty on public authorities to give due regard to children’s rights in their decision-making would ensure that all areas of government are aware of their obligations towards children.

Children and Families Bill

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Excerpts

Wednesday 16th October 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I intended to put my name to this amendment but failed to do so. I have supported each of the amendments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord McColl, and I strongly support this one. He has set out extremely effectively, supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, nearly everything that needs to be said and I do not propose to say very much.

I wish to pick up on what the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, said about this being an issue of child protection, among other matters. As I said earlier this week, very often when children go missing from local authority care, the local authorities do not know that they are trafficked children. Therefore, no one is identifying them and looking for them with the special care that is required for this small group of children. They are treated as ordinary missing children who will probably come back. This is a very serious child protection issue.

The other point made by the noble Lord, Lord McColl, is so important that I shall repeat it. There is a real need for one constant person to take an interest in the child, meet the child early on, offer a mobile phone number, be at the end of a telephone and be able to answer the questions that a child with very limited or no English will need to ask someone who can be there. One of the sadnesses highlighted at the Still at Risk event that I was glad to attend yesterday is that these children have multiple social workers. We all know the underresourcing and overwork of social workers, so can they give a special degree of care to a foreign trafficked child who is not even under a care order? Consequently, they have to cope with no one person in their life.

What the noble Lord, Lord McColl, is suggesting in this amendment is crucial. We are failing a small number of grievously disadvantaged foreign children. We are talking about hundreds, not thousands. There was a particularly worrying case in Kent, where children who had been trafficked into Kent were being trafficked out by the same traffickers. Fortunately, Kent Police got hold of this, but if there had been a guardian, that guardian would have kept in touch with the child, with any luck, and would probably have been able to prevent it as they would be the one person who would know where the child was and, in any event, would be in touch with the suitable authorities to try to deal with it.

I have been talking to Barnardo’s about whether it would be prepared to offer some sort of service. The most important point that it makes is that there has to be a sufficient legal status because the majority of social services and, indeed, the NHS, talk about the confidentiality of teenage children and so on, so they will not necessarily tell somebody coming in what is going on. If the person has legal status, people have to open their records. In the absence of that sufficient legal status, a wonderful organisation, such as Barnardo’s, the NSPCC, the Children’s Society and so on, would not be able to offer that service, even if it were to be financially supported to do it.

The noble Lord, Lord McColl, has raised a very important issue. He and I were, if I may put it rather bluntly, fobbed off by the Government in 2011 and 2012 on the basis that there would be this report, and nothing is happening now. Children are going missing and are suffering the trauma of trying to cope with inadequate English through the multiplicity of agencies with which they have to deal. Quite simply, it is unjust. It is not good enough, and we as a country should be rather ashamed of ourselves.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord McColl, made a very powerful case and referred to the Joint Committee on Human Rights’ report on its inquiry into unaccompanied children. I want to underline that because we took evidence from people in Scotland with experience of the guardianship system there, and I was very impressed by what we were told. We have clear evidence there of how it can work and can support the kind of children whom we have been hearing from. I was not around when the noble Lord first raised this issue, and it is very sad that there has been this long delay. I hope that this House can now do something to rectify that situation.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, I recall the noble Lord’s Private Member’s Bill, his previous amendment and so on. I read the Still at Risk report feeling almost sick. One of the things that makes me feel sick is that so often, apparently, we criminalise children for whom we should be caring because we fail to identify their situation. The point I want to make is not against guardianship; it is an extension of the argument. Those who are in a position to identify very early on that a child has been trafficked need training if they are to be alert to the situation. There is a need for additional awareness and training of all those who come into contact with children who have been trafficked. We are failing them when we fail to provide assistance from the people they perceive to be on their side.