Employment Gap: Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic, and White, Workforce

Debate between Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 29th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Green of Deddington (CB)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, there is plenty of time. We will hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Lawrence, followed by the noble Lord, Lord Green.

[Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon (Lab)]

My Lords, I will mention the disparity report that came out a couple of years ago. It put immigration, race relations, unemployment and education so much further back, so it is completely wrong to use it as something that is well known. Will the Minister focus on what the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, was talking about, which is the contribution around education and employment that needs to be looked at, making sure that the disparity is forthcoming, and that employers understand that it is all about the earnings, not the report?

Enforcement of Lockdown Regulations

Debate between Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 18th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend asks a pertinent question—that there is a disparity is not disputed. I know that the Ethnicity Subgroup of SAGE has done some work on this, both the year before last and last year. Factors include people’s jobs, and therefore their exposure to risk; household circumstances, such as more people in the house interacting; and financial difficulty in isolating. Vaccine hesitancy is an undoubted factor. The Government are giving financial help with things such as Covid support payments, but I think there is more to be gleaned. On people’s responses to Covid, maybe there is something in the physiology or make-up of different types of people—such as the cytokine storms that we talk about and inflammatory responses—that make them susceptible to more serious illness. I think some of that is yet to be uncovered.

[Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon (Lab)]

My Lords, the sad thing is that any new regulations tend to have more impact on the black community. How will the Government make sure that equality means equality for all groups?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are obliged, when they do anything, to make sure that there is not a disproportionate effect on different communities. That requirement is placed on them under the public sector equality duties set out in Section 149 of the Equality Act and covers decisions with respect to the Government’s response to Covid-19.

Stop and Search Powers

Debate between Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 17th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The noble Lord goes to the nub of the problem. Certainly, in light of the case of Sarah Everard, trust in the police has to be regained and rebuilt, because we must have trust in those people, the vast majority of whom are there to keep us safe. The police must be held to the highest standards, of course, which is also crucial to public trust in them.

[Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon (Lab)]

My Lords, the question around stop and search has been going on for decades now, and I do not think we have improved how the police conduct themselves around the black community. The scrutiny that has been taking place seems not to be working. We have listened to noble Lords bring the same subject up time and again, as have I. The Minister talks about the report that is going to be out tomorrow. Why has it taken so long for the report to come out since April? We have not been given much time for scrutiny. We have had so many reports of police misbehaviour within public office—she just mentioned Sarah Everard. When are we going to get to the point when we stop talking about stop and search and the effect it has on the black community?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I pay tribute to the noble Baroness and all the work she has done. Despite the fact that we might have different views on how to go about it, I think we both seek the same ends: trust from communities in the police; and making sure that more black lives are saved through reducing the amount of knife crime and making our streets safer for everyone, including young black men. That is at the heart of the Bill, and the collection of some of the data will help us towards this end—to see whether our policies are working and whether the pilots, when they are rolled out, are more effective than we have been at reducing the number of knife crimes.

Sarah Everard: Home Office Inquiry

Debate between Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 9th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, the duty to co-operate is already in place. It has been in place since February 2020. Regarding the Centre for Women’s Justice, we have not ignored the letter. We have been focused on identifying a chair so that the details of the inquiry’s scope and how it will operate can be confirmed as quickly as possible. The inquiry can then start addressing our concerns, those of the public and those of organisations such as the Centre for Women’s Justice. We will respond to them as soon as possible.

[Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon (Lab)]

My Lords, the Macpherson report has been quoted many a time in this House because it stands for many changes in the legal system and beyond. In the case of Sarah Everard, many women up and down the country are demanding a judge-led inquiry where witnesses can be called to give evidence. I know how important it is to have a judge-led inquiry. As in the Stephen Lawrence case, the truth must come out, so will Her Majesty’s Government support a public inquiry into the Sarah Everard case?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I could not agree more with the noble Baroness that the truth must come out—both at pace and conducted in a way that would satisfy the family. As I have said, if the non-statutory inquiry cannot meet its commitments, it can be converted to a statutory inquiry.

Police: Body-worn Videos

Debate between Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 7th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that question. As always, Wendy Williams’ report has come up with some very insightful recommendations. My noble friend will know that the use of body-worn video during stop and search is an operational decision for forces. The Home Office supports it as a tool for increasing transparency and accountability. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary reinforced that in her speech to the Police Federation conference early last month when she said that the Home Office would be

“looking carefully at strengthening the system of local community scrutiny and the value of body-worn video, because transparency”,

as the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, said, “is vital.”

[Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon (Lab)]

My Lords, following on from the question of my noble friend Lord Harris, why is it difficult for the police to get their evidence to court, and why is it a slow process? Is there a technical reason for the slowness in releasing material from body-worn camera data? Can the Minister update the House on this?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

Again, that is a pertinent point. Clearly, every case is different. Police getting evidence to court may well be undermined by material that has been released online beforehand, which may undermine the criminal justice system. A number of factors have to be considered when police are getting evidence to court, but I go back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey: speed is clearly of the essence not only in seeking out justice but in improving public confidence and scrutiny of these issues.

Metropolitan Police: Racism

Debate between Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 15th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

We most certainly all have much in common, and we now collect and publish more data on stop and search than ever before. We allow local scrutiny groups, the police and crime commissioners and others to hold forces to account. We also discuss it with relevant National Police Chiefs’ Council leads and forces to understand why disparities arise. Perhaps I might also say that the Home Secretary is chairing the national policing board today, and there is an item on diversity.

[Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, yesterday the Guardian interviewed two black retired senior officers, who talked about their experience of racism in the Metropolitan Police and how it had affected them in their careers. How will Her Majesty’s Government address the future of black and Asian minority officers’ careers, going forward?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I say to the noble Baroness that this is key to the success of the police. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, the college has reviewed and applied positive action—not positive discrimination but positive action—to the senior national assessment centre and strategic command course for chief officer candidates. However, it also has training in inclusion and diversity at every level now in the police force.

Crime: Police Numbers

Debate between Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 22nd October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The police will prioritise, and it is important that crimes are investigated. Locally, it is up to police to ensure that they are.

[Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon (Lab)]

My Lords, the previous Home Secretary indicated that he would increase stop and search, saying that we needed to do so to reduce crime. If that is the case, how do the Government square the circle of their talking about reducing stop and search?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, some of the indiscriminate, random nature of stop and search in the past has been replaced by a move to a much more intelligence-led stop and search, so that people—particularly young people—do not feel that they will be stopped every time they leave the house because of the colour of their skin, as the noble Baroness has said to me in the past. When they go out, people need to know that the police are stopping them because there is an intelligence reason for doing so.

Police: Recruitment and Retention

Debate between Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 12th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they have made towards implementing the recommendations on the recruitment and retention of police officers in the report of the Stephen Lawrence Inquiry, published in February 1999.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the police workforce is more representative in gender and ethnicity than it has ever been. The recommendations made by the Stephen Lawrence inquiry report on police recruitment and retention have been implemented. However, the Government are absolutely clear that there is more for forces to do to ensure that the police workforce reflects the diversity of the communities that it serves.

[Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her Answer. This month marks the 20th anniversary of the inquiry. There were 70 recommendations but I will ask the Minister about only recommendation 64, which addresses the recruitment and retention of minority officers and staff. It says that the Home Secretary and police authorities’ policing plans,

“should include targets for recruitment, progression and retention of minority ethnic staff”,

that the Home Office should,

“facilitate the development of initiatives to increase the number of qualified minority ethnic recruits”,

and that HMIC should include,

“in a thematic inspection a report on the progress made by Police Services”.

I find it really difficult to find any report giving me an update. Can the Minister give the House an update on recommendation 64 on recruitment and retention since the report was published?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I pay tribute to the noble Baroness and all that she has achieved on some of the recommendations that have come out of the report. On the three recommendations she talked about, there are several things going on. She will have seen the race disparity audit, which is published by the Government and continually updated on the government website to show exactly where the disparities lie and where improvements need to be made. Last year, the NPCC produced a diversity, equality and inclusion strategy led by Chief Constable Gareth Wilson. It attempts, across all areas of the police, to increase inclusion and diversity. The superintendents’ association and college have a mentoring and coaching scheme precisely to improve the recruitment of BME staff. The figure has improved, but the noble Baroness is right to ask the question because we have much further to go.

Knife Crime

Debate between Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 5th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I agree with all the points made by the noble Lord; he will have heard the Home Secretary’s words about future funding. The noble Lord is right about the scourge of drugs, and the fact that cocaine can be delivered quicker than pizza is really concerning. The police should make the most of technology on the streets and of intelligence as well. But make no mistake: the issue of drugs is something that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has committed to tackle in the most vigorous of ways because the two are linked.

[Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon (Lab)]

My Lords, back in 1999, at the end of the Stephen Lawrence inquiry, when the spate of knife crime started, resources were put into Trident. This problem of people being killed on the street did not seem to warrant the same importance then. Now we hear when a young person has been killed that it is a fatal incident. What has changed from back in 1999 when so many young black men were losing their lives? Nobody took much notice then, but now it is seen as a fatal crime. Will the Minister explain the difference between then and now?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The difference between then and now—and I pay tribute to the noble Baroness for all the work that she has done in this area following the terrible death of her son—is that the increase in knife crime has become quite unprecedented over the last few years. Therefore, the Government, through legislation, through non-legislative measures and through their work with the police and local communities, are determined to tackle it.

Windrush Generation

Debate between Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 24th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree with the noble Lord that the culture is everything in an organisation and I hope that the Home Secretary’s words yesterday will have acted as a jolt to the culture not only in the Home Office but in other government departments because, in the end, everything is about human beings as individuals and citizens of this country. He mentioned our debate in Grand Committee and I will mention again what I have said: is not hindsight such a wonderful thing? If only this had come to light far sooner. It is 47 years after some of these people arrived, and indeed a lot longer for others. I understand that Paulette Wilson now has her documents and that Mr Bryan has had his status confirmed. That is an example of how, I hope, the Home Office is being proactive in its approach.

On David Lammy, I did mean to say when the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, made his point that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary also paid tribute to his work yesterday. I echo those comments.

[Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon (Lab)]

My Lords, I have been listening to the debate for a while. I had no intention of speaking but I have been sitting here and thinking about when the Windrush residents first came here and how they suffered with accommodation, jobs and all the signs in the windows saying, “no Irish, no blacks, no dogs”. Now here we are again, almost 70 years later, talking about the same people who travelled here and are facing deportation and everything else. These people are suffering a double whammy. They should never have been put in this position, because they came here as British citizens. They were invited here, yet here we are now, talking about hundreds of people being deported and what we should do. This should never have happened. This country was never told in the first place that these people were invited here to build the country up; they did not just come here. The residents of this country never understood why the Windrush people came here in the first place.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right: it is a double whammy. I have often referred to the comments in the windows of bed-and-breakfasts here in the 1960s, saying “no Irish, no blacks, no dogs”. What a terrible insult they are to the noble Baroness, myself and anyone who is black, Irish et cetera. We are a country of immigrants. These people are here by right and she is absolutely right that they are here because we invited them.

Enslaved Africans: National Memorial

Debate between Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 28th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend is right that many memorials remain unerected to causes that we should remember, and I praise him for the efforts that he went to. That is precisely what I and the noble Lord, Lord Oates, will try to do together: to identify where funding can come from, both private and public, to bring this memorial forward.

[Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon (Lab)]

My Lords, many in your Lordships’ House know about the transatlantic slave trade and that many slave owners were from this country. There has been much controversy in recent months about historic memorials, including statues to controversial figures such as Cecil Rhodes. Does the Minister understand that the best way to tackle such controversy is to ensure that memorials in this country truly reflect the history of the communities in the UK, and to think again about supporting the Hyde Park memorial to enslaved Africans by providing funding? Recognition of this project is long overdue.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I hope the noble Baroness will agree that I partly answered the question in reply to other noble Lords who made the point previously. However, she is right that this country’s memorials and statues, and some of our institutions, should reflect our history whether it is palatable or not.