Immigration and Asylum Applications

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Wednesday 19th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I do not think—in fact I am categorically certain—that no assumption is made that all applicants are lying, but where I would concur with the noble Lord is that the quality of the interview is incredibly important in the initial decision-making process. On the cohorts that we discuss quite often in the House such as LGBT people or people of faith, we have well-trained staff dealing with these applications. For LGBT and faith-based applications—I thank my noble friend Lady Berridge for establishing faith as a basis for an application—the training process for the staff has been much improved.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, does the Minister have any suspicion that the hostile environment created by our current immigration system might be contributing to the more overt hate speech that we are seeing on all social media as well as in wider society at the moment?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness will know perfectly well that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary wanted to end the notion of a hostile environment, a term which was of course coined under a previous Labour Government, and move more towards an environment of compliance in the area of immigration. As she knows, hate speech is derived from a number of complex and different factors, so to talk about a hostile environment as the deciding factor for hate speech would be incorrect.

Hate Crime: Homophobic and Misogynistic Attacks

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Tuesday 11th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the noble Lord will know that I do not think they are in any way less serious. However, I acknowledge the concerns over the parity of different strands of hate crime within existing legislation. That is precisely why we asked the Law Commission to conduct a full review of hate crime legislation and where there might be gaps. I know that it will consult widely later this year and make recommendations to government on this next year.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, as I have already pointed out to the Minister, one of the gaps in hate crime legislation is the fact that misogyny is still not a hate crime. As she said, this was a hate crime of sexual orientation but also of misogyny. Will the Government just get on their feet and make misogyny a hate crime?

Stalking

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Tuesday 14th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right to point out that stalking is, at its heart, an obsessive undertaking. Often these obsessions are linked to mental conditions and the police need to recognise what stalking looks like. We have, therefore, talked about training, which is the only way to catch perpetrators and, in many cases, to bring them to justice.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, one option that would benefit the police when dealing with this sort of crime is for misogyny to be made a hate crime, along with racial and religious hatred, homophobia and so on. Is that something the Government are thinking about bringing forward legislation on? We obviously have a fair amount of time here and could probably deal with it quite quickly.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness makes a good point. She will know that we have asked the Law Commission to look at various types of hate crime. Misogyny is among the things they could look at to see whether there is anything further we can do in legislation to enhance the types of crime we consider hate crimes.

Protestors’ Rights

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Tuesday 9th April 2019 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the interference with the rights of protestors following the Court of Appeal judgment in Ineos Upstream Limited & Others v Persons Unknown & Others.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, peaceful protest is a vital part of democratic society. It is a long-standing tradition in this country that people are free to gather together and demonstrate their views, provided that they do so within the law. The granting of injunctions is a discretionary matter for the courts.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I thank the Minister for her Answer, and that is of course true. However, one of the big problems with these injunctions is that they are so wide-ranging and some of the decisions are made in secret meetings, which I think anyone would be concerned about. One thing that the Government could do is look at the Civil Procedure Rules and, where persons unknown are included in the injunction—which of course makes it very broad—if a legal representative were appointed to represent those persons unknown, there would be fewer infractions of the human right to protest. Will she commit to reviewing the Civil Procedure Rules?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think I know the case to which the noble Baroness refers, and there has been an appeal of the ruling in that case. I recognise the point that she makes about persons unknown. Because an appeal has been upheld, it will be up to the company involved to relook at the prime reason for the application for the injunction. The point about applications being wide-ranging is certainly something the court may take into consideration.

Children: Covert Human Intelligence Sources

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Monday 18th March 2019 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the debate on the regret motion on the Regulation of Investigatory Powers (Juveniles) (Amendment) Order 2018 on 16 October 2018 (HL Deb, cols 435–50), what assessment they have made of the recruitment, use, deployment, numbers and oversight of children used as spies by the police.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the Investigatory Powers Commissioner, Lord Justice Fulford, undertook to report on this issue. He has now written to the chair of the Joint Committee on Human Rights with his findings, and a copy of the letter has been placed on his website.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I thank the Minister for that response. Does she agree that the police setting targets for increasing the number of child spies in each region goes beyond what the Minister told us before—that this is a rarity? I have been alerted by a whistleblower that the police are doing exactly this. There is no way I can check, so will the Minister check for us and report back to the House?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I most certainly will. Obviously, the police are operationally independent of the Home Office, and I do not know why they would be setting targets for this. The noble Baroness referred to the letter of Lord Justice Fulford, which says that 17 juvenile covert human intelligence sources, or CHISs, have been used in the past three years. When she refers to targets, I assume she means targets upwards, but I will certainly look into the matter.

Trade Bill

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 4th February 2019 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

75: After Clause 6, insert the following new Clause—
“Objective to reform WTO procedures
(1) It shall be an objective of an appropriate authority representing the United Kingdom in meetings of the World Trade Organisation to ensure that the World Trade Organisation modifies its procedures in a way which secures the supremacy of international treaties arrived at under the auspices of the United Nations over trade agreements not arrived at under the auspices of the United Nations.(2) The Secretary of State must lay before each House of Parliament at least once in each calendar year following the commencement of this section a report on any progress made in achieving the objective under subsection (1).”

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I shall try to keep this brief, so I will not read out my amendment. We have heard a lot about the WTO over recent months; it is becoming the lazy answer to a lot of complex questions about how we withdraw from the EU. Some people are using the phrase “WTO terms” as if they are magic words that will solve all our problems. I was relieved to see the International Trade Secretary pouring cold water on those fantasies this weekend and I hope the Minister will take this opportunity to reinforce these statements in her response to my amendment.

For people such as me, who have spent most of their lives extremely sceptical of unaccountable, international governance structures, WTO terms are not the answer to our problems—they never have been. In fact, they are part of a global giant which undermines democracy and restricts the sovereignty of nations to implement their own policies. I find it hard to comprehend how anyone can complain about the EU being undemocratic and then champion the WTO as our saviour, using WTO terms to justify the most destructive and damaging route out of our current political stalemate. Many Greens, environmentalists and social justice campaigners have rallied against the WTO for decades and my amendment asks our Government to work towards adding some accountability to the WTO for reasons I will outline.

After the Second World War, there were two parallel, somewhat competing, initiatives which sought to establish an international system of rules and norms. One of these strands of thought gave rise to the United Nations, which has pursued peace, social development, environmental action and anti-colonialism as some of its fundamental aims. The opposing project established the Bretton Woods agreement, birthing the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, and the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, which later became the WTO. This second strand of international co-operation placed the economic interests of the West, particularly the United States, far above the demands of developing countries, which were represented in the United Nations. Empires were dismantled but international institutions continue the exploitation of former colonies and the extraction of their precious resources. It is in this context that the WTO and the UN can be seen as somewhat at odds with one another.

More recently, the WTO has protected international economic management and trade from the environmental and social initiatives of the UN. I do not want to overstate the point because there are some WTO rules that allow environmental and other pressing needs to be addressed, but the WTO’s overarching purpose remains promoting international trade and eliminating barriers to trade. There are a number of examples of WTO rulings that interfere with environmental initiatives. The WTO intervened in an initiative of the Indian Government to rapidly increase the country’s production of solar panels and create a strong climate policy. Other WTO decisions have prevented companies adopting conservation rules that would protect endangered and declining species, such as dolphins, sea turtles and tuna.

There are many more examples of the WTO interfering with national sovereignty and international co-operation. The WTO has recognised that there are conflicts between itself and multilateral environmental treaties. It has identified 20 international environmental treaties that it considers could affect trade, such as banning trade in certain species or products—perhaps ivory, for example. The WTO notes on its website that no formal trade disputes have been brought with regard to these multilateral treaties, but I suggest that it is only a matter of time and must be playing on policymakers’ minds when making decisions.

The unique and complex problems posed by climate change, environmental damage and species loss, are not restricted to national borders. These issues are more important than trade. We know that there are now only—I was going to say 12 years—11 years and eight months to make fundamental changes to our economies if we are to have any hope of avoiding catastrophic climate change and ecological collapse. The fact that the WTO itself recognises that there is conflict between its rules and the multilateral treaties designed to avoid environmental disaster is proof that urgent reform is needed.

Our Government talk a good talk on the environment, but at some point they must deliver. That is why, with my amendment, I am asking the Government to negotiate to ensure that UN treaties are given priority and not undermined by the WTO. I hope that this amendment will be supported by everyone who recognises the urgency of the issues facing our planet and the need to reform global governance in response. I beg to move.

[The Minister of State, Department for International Trade (Baroness Fairhead) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, for providing this opportunity to discuss these issues by tabling her amendment.

With regard to the World Trade Organization, we operate under WTO terms if we are not in a free trade agreement—that is, if we are not a part of the EU or currently part of an FTA. For example, WTO terms operate for most of our current trade with the US. On the noble Baroness’s point about how we do not wish to leave without a deal and move exclusively on to WTO terms, that is the subject of a future amendment, to be discussed later this evening. I stress once more that that is not the Government’s priority, which is to secure a deal.

I will touch on the reform of the WTO. This is a key global priority, which was highlighted in recent meetings of the G20 and mini-ministerial summits held in Canada last year, and at the annual meeting of the World Economic Forum in Davos. I agree with the noble Baroness that WTO reform is essential to address the functioning of the organisation, including the strengthening of its negotiating arm. Indeed, when I attended the OECD Ministerial Council Meeting in Paris last year as the UK Government’s representative, I emphasised the importance of, and the UK’s commitment to, advancing WTO reform discussions.

This is important, given that trade discussions relevant to some of the most critical global issues, such as climate change—which the noble Baroness so passionately commented on—are currently stalled. This House discussed the current state of the WTO’s environmental goods agreement in Committee the week before last. I restate that we are strongly in favour of seeing these negotiations restart and of playing a key role in them, given the important contribution this agreement would make to tackling climate change, which is a key priority for the Government and this country.

However, the UK cannot require the WTO to modify its procedures in a way that secures the supremacy of international treaties that were arrived at under the auspices of the UN over trade agreements that were not. The WTO and the UN, I am informed by our lawyers, are two distinct independent organisations, with two distinct bodies of international law. The WTO is not part of the UN system and exists independently in international law. That position is combined with the fact that there is an established principle of international law that there is no hierarchy of sources of international law. Reform of the WTO therefore requires reform of the WTO’s own treaties, which has nothing to do with UN law, nor can it. Trade agreements, too, whether they seek to reform the WTO, or are secured bilaterally, must comply with the relevant law, which is WTO law. They exist outside UN law. I hope I have provided clarity on the legal situation in this area.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

Does the Minister accept that climate risk has to be part of any sort of trade negotiations, in that it could disrupt all sorts of mechanisms worldwide—not only weather patterns but movement of peoples and so on?

[Baroness Fairhead]

My Lords, I think I have reiterated just how important climate change is to the Government’s priorities. The question is: what is the appropriate and most effective way to discuss climate change and to get rules put in place? There are differences of view over the most effective mechanisms, and many would say that trade agreements are not the right place. Others are more effective on that point. However, as we have tried to do and as the noble Baroness will have seen with our most recent trade agreements, such as CETA, we also include references to environmental standards.

[Baroness Fairhead]

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. Absolutely; I hope I restated that the WTO needs reform in areas such as digital, speed of processing and a number of others. We will continue to be an active participant in those discussions. Therefore, I can say yes to reform. On the particular area of climate change, we also have a clear objective: the Government want to improve the culture of climate change and the approach to it. It is about what is the best way to achieve that, and that is what we are focusing on. With those clarifications, I ask the noble Baroness to consider withdrawing her amendment.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

I thank the Minister for her answer and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for suggesting that I am in any way gentle; that is not a word normally applied to me, so I feel flattered.

I disagree so strongly with the government line that trade agreements are not the place to discuss, promote or encourage any sort of climate change mitigation measures. We cannot ignore any option for ameliorating what will be a climate crisis in a very short time. Therefore I very strongly disagree on that but, having made that disagreement clear, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 75 withdrawn.

Homophobic Hate Crime

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord raises another trend of hate crime online—that meted out against people with disabilities—which is particularly cruel. I have met with disability groups, such as Changing Faces, which noble Lords may have seen in the Telegraph campaign over Christmas. All the efforts we are making with regard to the online harms White Paper and the subsequent legislation will address that cohort of people as well.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

In her opening Answer, the Minister mentioned several categories of hate crime. When will misogyny be included as a hate crime?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As the noble Baroness will know, we commissioned the Law Commission to look into other types of hate crime to see whether there are current gaps in the law, and we expect it to report back in the next 12 to 18 months. That will include things such as misogyny.

Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 17th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, we are coming at this from slightly different directions, which is very healthy in a debate. My concern is twofold. Prevent sometimes has a corrosive impact on communities; I am also extremely concerned about its impact on civil liberties and the right to freedom of speech.

The principle of Prevent is good but it is a curate’s egg. If we did not have it, we would have to find something similar. Getting early intervention and helping people to avoid going down dangerous paths is an excellent idea, but there have been too many horror stories. I am sure noble Lords have heard many of them. There is a video on social media about an eight year-old boy who was quizzed by police about whether his father taught him about the Koran. He was terrified and could not understand. When the police asked a direct question—“What does your dad teach you?”—he responded, “Maths”.

Then was a Guardian report that a teenage anti-fracking campaigner had been referred to the Prevent strategy to check on whether they had been radicalised. In fact, the person had nothing to do with anti-fracking, but that description had been used to cover up the real group that had tried to influence him, so valid protests against fracking were linked with dangerous terrorism, which again is a real problem for civil liberties. A Green Party member in Doncaster had a friendly visit from the police citing Prevent because they had submitted online criticism of British foreign policy in the Middle East.

Those events are state intrusion into people’s thought processes and freedom of expression, and are deeply wrong. Therefore, an investigation or inquiry to see where Prevent has gone wrong and where it can be put right is the only way forward. I put the question to the Government in Committee and I ask it again now: what do they have to hide? If Prevent really is as fair and effective as the Government claim, a thorough, independent review would prove that point once and for all.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, it is interesting that eight years ago today, Mohamed Bouazizi set fire to himself in Tunisia kicking off the Arab spring, which brought devastation to the whole of the Middle East and dramatically increased the number of terrorists. It is appropriate that we are discussing a counterterrorism Bill, because this is such an important issue.

I have some sympathy for my noble friend Lord Harris’s safeguarding comments. There is no doubt that the alliteration was very useful. I found the four Ps a useful reminder when talking to the media at the time, and there is no doubt that there is a strong element of safeguarding within the Prevent strategy. But as I have said, Prevent is a curate’s egg. Some bits have done very well and some bits have not. It has not hit the right places. There is no doubt that there has been traducing of it by some people, which is unfortunate, but of the four strands, the reality is that Prevent is probably the most important in the final analysis. I had the other three firmly under my control when I was in the Home Office, but not Prevent. It was separate, which is unfortunate because it is such an important strand. The way that I believe we will finally defeat terrorism is by getting this right.

Therefore, it is important that we review what is going on. I strongly support the amendment. It is absolutely appropriate that we have a review and I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Carlile; I am not quite sure how the review should be undertaken and by whom, but the Government should consider it. I am certain, however, that we should have a thorough review to look at this before we move forward.

Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Monday 17th December 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

34E: Schedule 3, page 39, line 41, at end insert—
“(2) A person may refuse a request for documents or information under paragraph 3(1) where—(a) the information or document in question consists of journalistic material within the meaning of either section 13 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 or section 264(1) to (4) or (6) and (7) of the Investigatory Powers Act 2016;(b) the information or document in question is subject to legal privilege; or(c) the information or document in question may reveal the identity of a source of journalistic information.”

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I recognise that this amendment is not perfect and I am sure that the government draftsmen could make a better job of it, but the Government have shown that they are open to amending the Bill to improve it and to put in the necessary safeguards for journalists and others. For that reason, I ask the Minister to look again at the Schedule 3 power and to add proper oversight of its use.

The existing powers in Schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act have already proved open to abuse. When David Miranda was stopped at the border on the instruction of the security services, it was because he was the partner of Glenn Greenwald, a journalist reporting on the facts released by whistleblower Edward Snowden. It is thanks to these heroic individuals that we now know the true extent to which the American National Security Agency spies on just about every person who owns a phone or a computer. David Miranda was stopped at Heathrow Airport to confiscate any documents and data that he might have been holding in relation to the whistleblowing. There was no judicial oversight and no legal protection for the sensitive journalistic information that the security services sought to confiscate.

This amendment is not just an issue that I have cooked up because I do not trust the Government or something that NGOs have asked me to bring forward. It was the judgment of the Court of Appeal in the David Miranda case, where the Master of the Rolls said that the existing Schedule 7 power, on which Schedule 3 is based, is in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights. It was the Court of Appeal’s conclusion that,

“in relation to journalistic material … it is not subject to adequate safeguards against its arbitrary exercise … It will be for Parliament to provide such protection. The most obvious safeguard would be some form of judicial or other independent and impartial scrutiny conducted in such a way as to protect the confidentiality in the material”.

What have the Government done to rectify this breach of human rights law? Given that the existing Schedule 7 power has already been ruled in breach of human rights by the Court of Appeal, how have the Government chosen to bring another power which replicates the breach in its entirety? In that light, how was the Minister able to put a statement on the Bill that it is in accordance with the Human Rights Act when it is not? We have to amend this provision in some way. The alternative is that we pass a measure that we know has already been declared in breach of the human rights convention and is certain to be declared so again.

Journalists do essential work. They are the lifeblood of any free country, yet they face constant threats across the world for speaking truth to power. In the USA, despite constitutional protection, they are labelled by the President as “enemies of the people”, and have had bomb scares and other threats made by the far right. In Saudi Arabia, and far too many other countries, they face arrest, violence and death. It is against this backdrop that I am grateful to the Minister for tabling a number of amendments to the Bill which seek to protect journalists and their sources from the powers contained within. However, Schedule 7—and by extension the Schedule 3 power—do not protect journalists, and expose their sources to interference by the state.

My amendment gives journalists the right to say no when asked to hand over confidential information. I recognise that this is a sticking plaster for now. The Government can and should bring their own amendment to resolve the issues in the Miranda judgment, and give proper judicial oversight of this kind of confiscation. I hope this is just an oversight, and that the Minister has not yet tabled all her amendments to Schedule 3. While we wait for those to be forthcoming, can the Minister reassure us that we will come back to this at Third Reading?

Amendment 34F builds on the points I have just made. At the moment, the Schedule 3 power at least contains a safeguard so that any statements a detainee makes while detained cannot be used in court. The same protection is not given to information or documents that are confiscated. There should be protection for journalistic material and journalists’ sources, so that they cannot be exposed in court. I look forward to seeing the Minister’s amendments, which would resolve this problem.

[Lord Paddick]

My Lords, I rise to support the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, at least in principle. There is clearly a conundrum here. You have people potentially being detained and questioned at ports, for up to a maximum of six hours. They may be in possession of documents that are genuinely confidential journalistic material—for example, information about journalistic sources—or they may be legal documents, subject to legal privilege. As this amendment suggests, however, to allow someone to refuse to hand over the documents or information on the basis that this is what they contain, would be open to abuse by foreign spies, or people who have adverse intentions towards the United Kingdom. There is a dilemma between protecting legally privileged material and confidential journalistic material, but at the same time—and within the timescales and practicalities of a Schedule 3 or Schedule 7 stop—finding some mechanism that protects those fundamental human rights and enables the Border Force to carry out its job in protecting the United Kingdom.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

I thank the Minister for her response and I thank the noble Lords who supported my amendment in principle. I was going to say that I withdraw the amendment with discontent, but in fact I am absolutely delighted by the Minister’s answer, so I look forward to Third Reading. Thank you.

Amendment 34E withdrawn.

Immigration (Health Charge) (Amendment) Order 2018

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Wednesday 28th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, in the absence of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, I feel brave enough to rise to my feet. I declare my interest as a governor of Coram, the children’s charity. I shall agree with the noble Lords, Lord Lansley and Lord Rosser, as a true Cross-Bencher should. I understand, and in principle do not disapprove of, charging those from outside the EEA for using the wonderful NHS. If it produces £220 million for the NHS, I think we would all say hurrah. For many migrants, it is undoubtedly a very good deal and a lot cheaper than insurance.

But—as the Minister knows, there is always at least one “but”—I should like to make a few points. They concern what I hope are unintended, not deliberate, consequences of the IHS. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, asked a Written Question on 12 July about whether there would be a children’s rights impact assessment of the increase in the fee. In her reply on 23 July, the Minister said:

“A full impact assessment will be published alongside the draft Order”.


In the event, the impact assessment had been completed three weeks earlier on 3 July, but having read it extremely carefully to see whether I could find any trail within it which looked like a children’s right assessment, all I could find, at the top of page 17, in subsection F.5, was a comment about the proportion of in-country family visa applications which may be eligible for the waiver. It said that Her Majesty’s Government,

“is also considering options to mitigate the consequence an increase in Surcharge may have for applicants’ affordability”.

Given that the impact assessment says that the Government are considering options, what are those options and how far have Her Majesty’s Government gone in their thinking about them? Does the Minister genuinely think that the impact assessment before us includes anything like a full children’s impact assessment?

Secondly, when we are talking about the fee waiver system, which is extremely well intended, many of us outside the Home Office struggle to understand how it is working at all. The reason is that the Home Office has the relevant statistics and we do not. In May last year, Coram, of which I am a governor, sent a freedom of information request to the Home Office, to which the Home Office replied. The statutory response timeframe is 20 days. In this case, it excelled itself by responding nine months later. It said that roughly 7% of fee waiver applications were successful. Why was a new request for the 2017 statistics in a freedom of information request denied by the Home Office on the grounds that it would be too costly to compile it? Given what we heard earlier—that the Government, in their wisdom and munificence, are deliberately undercharging when it comes to the IHS—how can the Home Office justify not acceding to the freedom of information request?

We simply cannot judge whether the waiver scheme is working properly if we do not have the data. I am not trying to be awkward or embarrass the Minister or the Government; we simply need to know the figures so that we can come to a reasoned judgment, together with the Home Office, on whether the fee waiver system is working in the way we all know it was intended to work. It would be helpful to all sides if we were able to do that.

Thirdly and lastly, we welcome the report of the Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration. I hope he will include the effect of the IHS when he publishes his report, and we look forward to its findings. If it does not contain an analysis of the effect of the IHS, will the Minister say why not? The children we are talking about find it very difficult to have their voices heard. Frankly, we are inadequate substitutes for these children, though we do our best to communicate their raw and often very painful testimony. But they have an inalienable right to be heard, and it is in that spirit that I ask these questions—their questions—and I look forward to the Minister’s answer.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, it has been an interesting debate for me because other noble Lords have argued from points of view that I have not considered. I support the amendment to the Motion in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, simply on the basis of unfairness and injustice.

I want to take issue with some of the things said by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. It seems to me that we do not take into account the value of immigrants in Britain, and again and again that creates a hostile environment. I shall quote a government press release:

“We welcome long-term migrants using the NHS, but the NHS is a national, not international health service and we believe it is right that they make a fair contribution to its long-term sustainability”.


That is true, but the NHS is paid for by everyone who pays tax in Britain. This includes immigrants, who overwhelmingly pay more in tax than they receive—and perhaps make the wider contributions that the Minister was thinking about when she mentioned that. They already make more than their fair contribution to the running costs of the NHS, but the Government do not seem to appreciate that, and I ask why. All the figures suggest that immigrants give more than they take, so why are the Government not recognising that?

This dog whistle rhetoric of calling it,

“a national, not international health service”,

is a particularly harsh insult to the 144,000 NHS staff whose nationality is non-British. The truth is that we do have an international health service, which runs on the hard-working dedication of so many people who move here from all over the world to look after the people who live here in the UK. It is hard at the moment to see why anybody would want to come here in view of the sorry, xenophobic state we are in, but they still do.

Not only is our immigrant workforce being blamed, yet again, for the failures of government policy, but now they are being charged £400 a year for the privilege. The same people who came here to work so hard to deliver our National Health Service are now being told that they do not deserve to have their own health needs looked after properly. If this kind of policy had been introduced in 2010, people would have been rightly disgusted. It is the kind of thing that only UKIP would have got away with eight years ago, and everyone would have thought it wrong. But somehow, in our society today, we have become so hostile, so fast, that now such policies just seem normal.

This change is a continuation of the Government’s obsession with blaming all the country’s problems on immigration. As a Green, I strongly resist any measure of hostility based on where in the world a person was born. In particular, I ask the Government to consider whether it is particularly unfair to charge an NHS surcharge to people who work in the NHS. I am dubious about the amount that the Government claim they will raise. I would like the Minister to confirm that amount, because it would be interesting to see later whether it is realised.

Finally, do the Government agree that the best way to fund the NHS is to invest in it properly? Only the Government can do that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I can certainly undertake to take this away and provide for the noble Baroness and other noble Lords a more fulsome illustration of the impact. I have an illustrative example of a nurse and I can write to noble Lords with that.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

Before the noble Baroness returns to her response, I want to say that it is not appropriate to compare this country with places such as America, because we have a national health service and they do not. The point about our National Health Service is that it helps us to have a healthy and perhaps happier population, and that is good for everybody: it is good for the Government and for every single person who lives here. Therefore, it is not a gesture of good will from the Government to create a good National Health Service; it is imperative to our democracy.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I gave the example of America precisely because we have a national health service. Were I to migrate to America for a job, I would have to have healthcare insurance at a huge cost. The noble Baroness is right. There is a huge disparity in healthcare outcomes in America between those who can afford health insurance and those who cannot, and I am glad that we have an NHS for that very reason.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

My point was that we are not taking into account the wider implications of immigrants paying into our tax system, but then charging them on top of that. To me, that just does not seem fair.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I said earlier, if I went to America and paid my taxes, I would still need health insurance on top of that. The point I am trying to make about the surcharge is that, compared to what one might pay for private healthcare insurance in most countries, this is a very reasonable charge to access what I think is one of the best healthcare systems in the world.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

You are not going to convince us.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

No.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Rosser]

I appreciate that the Minister said that she would write. I would be very grateful indeed if, when she writes, she will address this issue of the impact of the charges on the incomes of those who will have to pay it, particularly those on low incomes and with families with children.

There is another example of the way that the Government look at the issue. When reference was made to the impact on nurses, the answer was: “You solve it by increasing pay”. Yes, there has been a small increase in nurses’ pay, but there have not been very big increases over the past eight years. The charge is being doubled but I do not think that nurses’ pay is being doubled. I do not think that nurses will necessarily feel that the relatively small increase they have just had—they have not had much over the past few years—will be any real compensation for having to pay, for one specific item, a doubled charge. One does not get the impression that the Government have looked at this from the point of view of the impact on incomes, particularly for those among the less well off.

I think I heard a comment—I will withdraw my remarks if I am incorrect—which almost seemed to say that when low-income families are faced with this additional charge, it is up to them to arrange their finances accordingly. That was the thrust of the argument and how it came across to me. That is another indication that this has not been looked at from the point of view of the impact, particularly on people on low incomes and with children.

I am grateful to the Minister for saying that she will write. I hope she will perhaps reflect further on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, and my noble friend Lady Lister about the child rights impact assessment. I hope she will address that issue in her response on behalf of the Government. I know that she will give examples, but I also hope that she will reflect further on looking at the fee-waiver rules on destitution. “Destitution” implies that one must be in a pretty desperate state before receiving any assistance. The figures on the numbers of those getting the waiver appear to bear that out. No doubt the Minister will give examples in her reply—without indicating who she is talking about or anything like that—of the kinds of situations and income levels to which those fee-waiver rules have been applied up to now. At least then we could get a feel for the issue.

The answer given on why there had been no public consultation rather took my breath away. Apparently, it was because there was a manifesto commitment to £600. That seems an extraordinary reason for saying that there will be no opportunity for people to comment on what the Government are doing in the sense of how it will apply and its impact. I would have thought that any Government would want to put something like that out for consultation to get responses from people on the impact of such a doubling of charges.

I was very surprised to find that we have a Government who believe that they should not do any further consultation on the impact of something—not the principle of whether they will do it—and on how they might mitigate that because of a figure in a manifesto that they intend not to keep but to put at a lower level than is in the manifesto, which I am not complaining about. However, if the argument is that people voted for an increase in the charge to £600—it is difficult to believe that votes in the general election were determined solely by that—then they have not got what they voted for because the charge is less than that. Again, I am not complaining about that. I find it extraordinary that that was used as a reason for not consulting and giving people an opportunity to comment on the impact on certain people of doubling the charges.

I raised the issue of the child rights impact assessment. As I said, I hope the Minister will address that in her response. I will bring my comments to a conclusion. We opposed this matter in the Commons, where the order was agreed to in a vote. I tabled my amendment today to emphasise our continuing serious concerns about the impact of this increase in the immigration health charge but it is not my intention to press it to a vote.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

Before the noble Lord sits down, will he reconsider withdrawing his amendment? I honestly think that the Government have got this completely wrong. That is the mood of the House. Therefore, he might get considerable support.

[Lord Rosser]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, for that contribution, but I have to say no; I am not prepared to reconsider the decision not to push it to a vote. We made our intentions clear beforehand and I have no intention of going back on what was said about pursuing this to a vote. However, I appreciate where the noble Baroness is coming from.

I hope that the Minister will read through this debate—I know she will, she does it automatically—because questions have been raised and, inevitably, she has not been able to respond to them all. I hope she will look at that and respond to ones she has not been able to reply to at the Dispatch Box. She has replied to a great many questions.

I also hope the Government—this pursues the point the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, made—will have got the message that there is a good deal of disquiet about the impact of doubling this charge in particular areas, not least in relation to children and school shortages. I hope the Government will have got that message and will look at this again when they come to their White Paper on the future immigration system. We have to await the chief inspector’s report on Home Office fee levels and see what that says; it may or may not make a comment on the charges we are talking about. I will leave it in that context and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.