Welfare Reform Bill
Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts(12 years, 11 months ago)
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Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
My Lords, I have also added my name to Amendment 45, which was so ably spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and the noble Baroness, Lady Lister of Burtersett. There are many complex issues in this group, all of which been addressed pretty comprehensively, but I would like to add a piece of new research which emerged in December. It shows that half of young cancer patients have to borrow money as a result of their illness. More than one in five have borrowed over £1,000, while almost one in 10 have borrowed over £2,000. The eligibility of young people is heavily dependent on their circumstances, such as their educational status and so on, and they are in a unique situation.
I should like briefly to address the situation of students. They are unable to access contributory ESA, and can access income-related ESA only if they are already in receipt of disability living allowance. Many young cancer patients, particularly those with initial treatment periods of less than nine months, may not be able to access DLA. Furthermore, there are students who are fit and well one day but, for whatever reason, discover that they are not on the following day. Some are diagnosed with devastating diseases such as osteosarcoma or cancers like Hodgkin’s lymphoma. There are also those involved in traffic accidents or who suffer catastrophic sports injuries, head injuries and so forth. The numbers are small, but suddenly these young people become very dependent and require long periods of rehabilitation. If you are a full-time student whose life suddenly collapses around your ears and treatment starts immediately, the costs mount up quickly. The problem with the way that the Bill is worded at the moment is that it closes the door on young people being able to access options for financial support. The complications of this have already been discussed, and I hope that between now and Third Reading the Minister will be able to consolidate the sentiments and ensure that we do not inadvertently remove a very important safety net for young people.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, those of us who sat through the entire Committee stage and have listened to and contributed to these arguments are now hearing it all again. We are hearing the horrific details about the suffering of children and their families and carers, and indeed of grandparents who are often involved in the care needs of these children and young students. All this must help to persuade the Minister, who we know has tried his very best in a number of respects, and has succeeded in a number of areas in which we had considerable concerns. In this case, however, with the numbers so small and the need to look elsewhere to make savings if that is necessary, why should we continue to penalise this group? Surely we can get around the European inhibition confronting us, and we have even had suggestions about that. Some brilliant speeches have been made today and I hope that they have had the desired effect.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I speak in support of Amendments 45 and 46. As the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, has just said, we have heard very powerful presentations by my noble friend Lady Lister, the noble Lord, Lord Patel, the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, as well as from the noble Baroness herself. I do not plan to repeat all the key issues associated with why I support these amendments. We have gone over them in Committee and we have heard them again today.
Society imposes significant challenges on young disabled people, especially so far as employment is concerned. These challenges will be particularly acute in the next few years as unemployment soars, particularly youth unemployment, which is now more than 1 million. Given the determination to place a time limit—we have yet to settle whether it should be one or two years—on contributory ESA for those in the WRAG, the abolition of the youth condition seems particularly spiteful.
The amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, would preserve the third condition, but only in circumstances where the claimant was and remained in the support group, thus focusing the support on those with the highest needs. The amendment would not appear to add any further benefits to existing claimants who qualify for ESA as a result of the third condition, because that is now covered by the government amendment. However, it would preserve the third condition for new claimants who fell within the support group. As such, I suggest that it is absolutely consistent with the Government’s Amendment 43, which was so widely praised earlier. I would hope that it was readily acceptable.
Just to be clear: the effect of government Amendment 43 is to provide among other things for those with an existing claim which relies on the third condition, the youth condition, to remain entitled after time- limiting if they have moved into the support group. Amendment 46 would allow the third contribution condition still to be applicable for new claimants but only where they would go directly into the support group. So there is a parallel in enabling young people with the most severe needs, existing and new claimants, to make use of the third condition. It is unlikely to have any significant cost, but doubtless the Minister will advise on that.
The letter sent by the Minister to the Cross Benches, and perhaps more widely, states that a “recent” European Court of Justice ruling limited the circumstances. How recent is “recent”? I do not believe that we debated or touched on this issue in Committee—if I am wrong, the Minister again will correct me. The letter goes on to say that the judgment further weakens the ESA youth provision, making it potentially much more widely available than intended. Of course, none of us would support benefit shopping if that is what is behind the concerns felt and we would work with the Government to try to make sure that it did not recur and was stopped, but until we have a much clearer idea of what is involved here, it would seem wrong to throw out now, on the basis of this potential issue, the prospects before us in the Bill to deal with the third condition and people entering the support group. If we do that now on the basis of the judgment, we close it off because we are coming to the end of the primary legislation.
At the very least, I hope that the Minister will be able to give a clear assurance to the House today that there will be an opportunity to come back to this issue at Third Reading and for us to have more detail, and that he will facilitate that. I would urge him also, because it would be consistent with that, not to press his Amendment 45A, because it would cut off the opportunity for people to make use of the youth condition for employment and support allowance. If noble Lords who have tabled these amendments are going to withhold pressing them on the basis that this issue requires further input, I hope that the Minister will undertake to do the same when he responds.
Welfare Reform Bill
Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts(12 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope
My Lords, I should like to make a contribution to the debate as someone who was happy to co-sponsor the amendment of my longstanding and noble friend Lady Lister.
This has happened partly because the department thought that the Social Fund was beginning to become too difficult to handle. I know that the current explanation is that it is all part of the localism agenda, but I do not believe that. The criticisms that have been well set out by my noble friend Lady Lister are all valid. They are concerns that I share. More than anything else, I am beginning to hear from my spies, who are everywhere, that local authorities are coming to arrangements—if I were them I would do the same—for benefits in kind with white goods providers and food banks, though not quite soup kitchens yet. The point that I am making is that there is no substitute in certain circumstances, when families are in crisis and people are at risk of prejudice to their health, to the availability of access to liquid cash. There is no substitute to get them out of the kind of classic crises, whether domestic violence or other things. They need hot money and they need it right now to get them into a place where they can become safer. No amount of ingenuity, local creativity, co-operation or anything else is a substitute for that. We are not safe in this House to devolve this money—I shall come on to how it will be devolved in a moment—without recognising the value to family households in crises of having access to cash.
There is a very important point for Parliament about the oversight of this money. As colleagues know, we have a sophisticated system. There is a Social Fund commissioner and a variety of excellent public servants have served in that office with distinction. They have overseen the independent review service and have provided extremely useful current advice, information and data that have helped to stay on top of some of the policy issues. All of that is being thrown to the winds. I deeply regret that and said so at some length in Committee. The work that the Social Fund commissioners did in the past will be missed. I can see no way that Parliament will be able to stay as closely in touch with developments in this important policy area under the regime proposed in the clause.
I have no confidence at all that we can be secure in the knowledge of what will happen in Scotland and Wales. The Government may be able to control to some extent the conditions and provisions under which local authorities in England and perhaps Wales—although I am not sure about Wales—will comply with these regulations. However, certainly in Scotland the money will be given to the Scottish Government, or will pass through the Scottish Government, and noble Lords may have noticed that arguments have started to mature north of the border that perhaps will knock relations between the Westminster and Scottish Governments temporarily out of kilter. My serious point is that there will be different legalities relating to the controls and dispositions that will be made by local authorities in England and north of the border. I have no way of knowing how the Government will handle that.
No additional cost is involved in the amendment. That is an important consideration, given our earlier debates. We had some good discussions on this in Committee and I, like the noble Baroness, thought we had got some constructive and seriously positive responses from the Minister. I simply want to know how Clause 69 in all its glory and with its 10 subsections will be translated into practice and implemented.
I assume that there will be further opportunities at the regulation-laying stage—assuming that we do not agree any of the amendments that I think are necessary to improve the Bill in this important area—when the powers and the money are transferred. The money is important because another unique aspect of the Social Fund is that it has loans that are repaid, and the repaid loans refurbish the resources available for further use by other clients at a later stage. I am not sure exactly what amount of money will be transferred. I am certainly not clear—and I do not think that anybody else is—about how it will be disposed of, in relation to who gets what and the disbursement formula that will be used to allocate money. I assume that it will be done on a basis of need, but I have no way of knowing what that is. If I have missed it, I would be very pleased to be pointed towards the work that the Government are doing.
This is a really important part of the Bill and the amendment is the very least that we should ask for. This House should say that whatever sum of money is available at the moment, it would not be safe for us to let it be devolved to local authorities. I am sure that they will do their best and I have nothing against them, but we must impose a condition that any moneys that are disposed of and devolved for that purpose must be devoted to that purpose and to no other.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I remember there being considerable concern in this area upstairs in Committee. Having listened to what the noble Baronesses, Lady Lister and Lady Turner, said, in particular about the plan in the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, I think that there is a way of dealing with the situation. Some of the problems of exactly how it will be spread out and all the rest of it might need a little more administrative attention, but I think this is a satisfactory answer about what to do with this sum of money. I would back it like that. Let us end the argument.
The Lord Bishop of Bath and Wells
My Lords, it is often said that we read the world from the position we occupy in it. In particular, users of the Social Fund are unlikely to be very visible and able to hold local councils to account. Recent analysis of some 500 discretionary Social Fund applications has revealed that 12 per cent involved someone leaving institutional or residential care, 20 per cent involved someone who had experienced a period of homelessness and 8 per cent involved someone leaving prison. These groups are much less likely than others to be able to demonstrate local connections, and without crucial assistance from community care grants to buy essential items such as cooking equipment and bedding, they may struggle to sustain and maintain a home. That puts those who have been offenders at risk of reoffending or of moving back into temporary or institutional accommodation, which is far more costly and means they lose their newly found independence. The issue of vulnerable groups and local connection is recognised in housing legislation where people with no local connection must be assisted by the local authority to which they originally applied. I believe that similar provision should apply to protect such groups in the absence of a standard national Social Fund, especially as the Welfare Reform Bill also abolishes the independent review service that reviews refused Social Fund applications. I hope that we can take note of this amendment.
Welfare Reform Bill
Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Lord Best
My Lords, the amendment relates to the payment of help with housing costs—at present in housing benefit and later as the housing cost element of universal credit. The Minister has announced that in future the payment for rent must go directly to the tenant, not, as is possible at present, to the landlord. The amendment preserves the current option for the tenant to choose that the rent should be paid straight to the landlord where the tenant thinks that that will help with their budgeting and housekeeping.
When I introduced a similar amendment in Committee, I pointed out that private landlords were already often very reluctant to take on tenants in receipt of housing benefit or local housing allowance. However, where the benefit is paid straight to the landlord, thereby minimising the chances of arrears, the reluctance of landlords can be much reduced. There is backing for the amendment from the private sector—the Residential Landlords Association, the British Property Federation and others. There is also backing from social landlords. This morning at the LGA, I addressed a conference on housing finance and was surprised at how strongly local authorities expressed their view that the direct payment of rent to tenants would lead to arrears and difficulties for councils in handling housing accounts. The amendment is also strongly supported by those who represent tenants—residents in the rented sector. Associations of residents in social Housing—TARAs—Shelter, Crisis and others are right behind the amendment, not least because surveys have shown that a high proportion of tenants would wish for their rent money to go to the landlord.
The Government have agreed that this choice will be available to those of pension age. This amendment would extend that possibility to make this kind of sensible choice available to all tenants. The housing associations organised a pilot of their own in which they experimented to see how things worked out when rent was paid directly to the tenant. They found that arrears increased from 3 per cent to 7 per cent. If that was applicable generally, the cost to the housing association sector would be some £320 million a year in additional arrears. Local authorities have a similar stock of social housing which would double the figure to some £640 million a year. Housing associations also discovered that their administrative costs were very much higher when the rent did not come straight to the landlord in the form of housing benefit or—in future—the housing element of universal credit. The extra costs on administration for that are estimated at £100 million.
If housing associations face those kinds of costs, the hazard is that lenders will not be so keen to lend to them. The Council of Mortgage Lenders is in favour of the amendment, as are the individual lenders, because they worry that housing associations will get into difficulties if they do not get the rent that they need. The Minister has set up some important pilot schemes to test ways of assisting tenants to handle the money provided for rent, and new arrangements for low-cost banking may be developed in the months and years ahead. However, the Minister undertook to look further at the option of giving more vulnerable tenants the right to choose to have their rent paid to the landlord. I know that he has been considering how a fast-track arrangement might be implemented to switch the payment of rent from tenant to landlord when arrears are mounting.
These changes would be useful but they do not address the fundamental problem. Surely the best approach is to continue to give tenants the right to choose to have their help with housing costs paid directly to their landlord, and not to give them the temptations which are bound to be placed in their path if sums, perhaps in the region of £500 or £700 a month, were paid to them, and possibly used to satisfy the requirements of loan sharks and less salubrious lenders and creditors, rather than paid to their landlord. Can we not preserve the existing right of tenants to choose to be assisted in their budgeting? I beg to move.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, having listened to that explanation from my noble friend Lord Best, I have been completely converted to this approach. I certainly appreciate that the Minister is trying to educate people better to take care of their own finances, but the choice already exists for the individual tenant to decide whether to pay for themselves or to opt in to a system which is, from what we have heard, more satisfactory and reassuring to the landlord—whether a local authority or whoever. As all of us in this House are beginning to get a little older and, sometimes, a little forgetful, perhaps that is a helpful thought for later, when we get even more forgetful about things such as paying our rent.
All I am saying is that this sounds the better way to do things. I am all for running courses to help people to cope better with their finances, but from the point of view of not wasting money, this is clearly a way forward.
Welfare Reform Bill
Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, I am not going to add to the very powerful case that has already been made by my noble friends Lady Bakewell and Lady Pitkeathley. I simply wanted to seek some clarification of what was said in Committee, when a number of us put the case for a carers disregard, and the Minister said in his reply:
“Rather than going through the complexity of the separate disregard route, we have provided an additional element that is included in the gross amount of the universal credit for carers. That is a change from carer’s allowance”.—[Official Report, 1/11/11; col. GC 443.]
I am rather confused by this, because it seemed to me that it was muddling up carer’s allowance—a very important benefit, which some of us would like to see higher than it is at present—and the support provided to carers through means tested benefits such as income support.
Because I worry about my memory for the intricacies of social security I did not challenge the Minister at that point, but afterwards I sought guidance from Carers UK. It, too, was very confused by what the Minister said, and wondered whether or not the Minister—I hate to say this—was perhaps confusing carer’s allowance and means tested support for carers. Because the position is not changing, I do not see how the removal of a disregard can be justified on the basis of what happens with carer’s allowance. Universal credit is not replacing carer’s allowance. There is an element in means tested benefits for carers that will continue, but it is nothing to do with whether there is a disregard or not. It wondered whether the Minister is promising a higher premium for carers under universal credit. That would be excellent news if it were the case, but I rather doubt it. Could the Minister perhaps clarify what he meant in Committee, because it did not seem to me that it was answering the kind of case that has been made by my noble friends; namely, why is it that carers are the only group to lose the disregard that they currently have?
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
I hope noble Lords will forgive me; I was a few minutes late in coming in, so I missed a little bit of what the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, said. As I was listening I wondered to what extent more carers would or could be encouraged to be carers if in fact such a situation as she was proposing existed. Perhaps I am looking at this in a slightly disorganised way, but if there is an answer to my question, I would like to know it.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I know that the whole House recognises the important contribution that carers make, and that all will endorse the case made by my noble friends Lady Bakewell and Lady Pitkeathley. Both noble Baronesses know this field intimately—the former from her involvement with an ageing population, with all its aches and pains, and the latter from her sterling work with carers over so many years. Nobody can gainsay their experience in this field. This amendment in their names is a true acknowledgment of the work of all carers, whether for the young, the old, the sick or the disabled.
We know that the Minister has considered the needs of carers, and we welcome the announcement this afternoon—just minutes before this Report stage started, so it just hit the promised timescale—that caring for people receiving both a higher and lower daily living rate under the new personal independence payment will qualify for the carer’s allowance.
However, as yet we have absolutely no idea as to the threshold of disability that will place someone into PIP, nor do we know who will take the hit of the 20 per cent cut—a cut of one-fifth of all such payments—that the Government intend to make. Will fewer people be placed in PIP than into the current two higher rats of DLA? We similarly do not know whether carers themselves are safe from cuts. Indeed, it is noticeable, as was impressed on us today by the Joint Committee on Human Right in its scrutiny of this Bill, that the Government’s impact assessment makes absolutely no mention of the impact of some of the Bill’s changes on carers, even when the impact will be very significant. That is so too for those who might lose their DLA under the new PIP thresholds. Not only would they lose that income but would become subject to the benefit cap.
We must all understand the anxiety, even fear, that some are experiencing by this uncertainty over their future. We also do not know how the Minister intends to deal with carers under the new rules to impose in-work conditionality on universal credit claimants. Although some carers will fall into the no-conditionality group, those who do not may be asked to increase either their hours or their earnings. Although flexibility has been promised, it is not clear how that will work.
Finally, many carers look set to be hit by the benefit cap. Those who are caring for a DLA and, I presume, PIP recipient who lives in the same household will be exempt from the £500 a week benefit cap. But those who care for someone who lives independently—perhaps an adult or a child, as we have heard, or an elderly relative—will see the carers’ allowance, which recognises this responsibility, hit by the cap. If the carer is single, this means that their benefit to include their rent even in London will be capped at £350 despite their reduced ability to earn by virtue of their caring responsibilities.
We will discuss the various ways in which that cap is unfair at a later stage of the Bill but in our discussions of carers today, we surely need to remember that the desire to support carers is not always translated into reality in the detail of this Bill. When we debated this amendment in Committee, the Minister said that only a few carers would be made worse off by the lack of a disregard; that is, those working between two and five hours a week. But it is exactly those short-hour jobs that universal credit was intended to enable. It is precisely carers who are most likely to need these mini-jobs as they fit in with their caring responsibilities. Many people, perhaps 50,000, will be affected if the Government reject this amendment. They are people who want to work and who care.
In another case described by Carers UK, a 45 year-old man who lives and cares for his 65 year-old father who has dementia has had to give up work because the father needs 24/7 care and he has to be there. His sister has her own family and does not live close. She travels to look after their father for an afternoon and evening a week, which enables the son to go out to work. He can earn a little to supplement his income support. At the moment, if he earns £18 his benefits are not affected because of the £20 a week disregard, as has been mentioned. But, under universal credit, without this amendment and the earnings disregard, he would have only the basic disregard of £13.50, which is for everyone. There will be no special disregard for carers. After that, his benefits will taper away. He would keep only just over £15 of his earnings, compared with £18 now. That sum is serious money for someone living on benefits. We must remind ourselves that that person is living on benefits only to save the state a fortune should it have to care for the father at home.
To make use of the more generous taper in universal credit, or to overcome the loss of this reduced disregard, the son would have to work increased hours. However, he cannot do this. His sister cannot stay any longer and there is no one else to be with his father. It is a catch 22: he is receiving no recognition that his position as a carer restricts his employment potential. The whole thrust of universal credit, which we support, is to make work pay. This amendment seeks to do just that for carers, and thus has the support of this side of the House.
Welfare Reform Bill
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Lord Boswell of Aynho
My Lords, it would be impossible to have served, as I have for a number of years, as party spokesperson on disability issues and maintain a continuing interest in my party’s disability group without a degree of sensitivity to the problems of disabled children and, of course, to those of their families. The noble Baronesses and noble Lords who have spoken about this issue are clearly right in drawing the House’s attention to it. All that I would say is that we need to pause for a moment in looking at the overall implications of these proposals, because my understanding of the position is that relatively—broadly over the past decade, and it may properly be attributed to the previous Administration—there has been significant acceleration in the support given to disabled children, reflecting the pressures to which we have referred that have caused their benefit rates to increase faster than those of adults.
The Government’s proposal is not, and indeed was not presented as being, simply a matter of cutting back the support for disabled children. The other aspect of the Government’s proposals is the alignment of rates, reflecting the position of adults and including some with more severe disabilities. All I would say, with respect, to those who have moved this amendment is that if we are going to make proposals that will increase or maintain the public cost in relation to children, it will be very difficult to provide the equivalent or additional increases for adults. Given the economic state of the country, we cannot proceed through the Welfare Reform Bill with what I might call the “highest common factor” approach to benefits of all kinds. We need the most appropriate and targeted system. I say that not in derogation of the case that has been made but simply with reservation about its sustainability.
There may be a glimmer of hope—indeed, there is already a chink of precedence—in relation to the arrangements for transition and run-on to the new system. I know that the Government have already indicated that they will maintain DLA with its three levels in relation to children rather than transfer them all to the personal independence payments. That is a start. The key to this—and this will not be the only case in the matters that we will hear tonight—is that there should be appropriate and sensitive transition arrangements so that people do not lose significant or very large sums in years one or two, but that nevertheless the overall objective—rebalancing the system and maintaining some coherence in public revenues and expenditure—is maintained.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I support the views that have been expressed today. They were not as clearly enunciated in Committee, as we have already heard, but they have been spelt out pretty effectively today. I also accept that the money has to come from somewhere. The important thing may be the transition period and keeping an eye on just what the effect of the transition period is. However, when one thinks that 100,000 disabled children will be less well off as a result of some of these changes, one becomes worried. Four in every 10 lives will be lived in poverty—that was the figure given by the Children’s Society.
Although I accept that it is a difficult decision for the Government to make, I would like to think that there are other pockets from which rather more could be produced. I urge the Minister to look hard in those directions.
Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, I, too, support this amendment. I have been reading in newspapers lately that parents of disabled children have begun to get very worried lest the changes being brought about by this Bill reduce the benefits that they already get. This has made a number of them extremely nervous, with the result that we have had a fair amount of lobbying from the organisations that represent disabled people.
One of the attractive things about this amendment is that it seeks to ring-fence the benefits that people have at the moment so that they do not decrease as a result of this Bill. We have heard today from a number of speakers that bringing up disabled children is really quite difficult. Very often parents give up their work in order to care for them. It is often also extremely expensive to look after disabled children. It therefore seems to me that there is some merit in ring-fencing what people have at the moment, so that people who look after disabled children at least have some assurance that they are not going to be worse off as a result of the benefits being introduced under the welfare Bill before us this evening.
Welfare Reform Bill
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Lord Hamilton of Epsom
My Lords, I am a relative newcomer to this debate but I should like to pick up one point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, who said that cost had never been an issue here. I cannot quite understand why money would not be saved if payments were made monthly rather than weekly. It seems to me that a saving would be made there, and surely we are trying to achieve savings because of the economic situation that this Government have inherited.
I should like to pick up one other point from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester. He seemed to think that it was a bad idea that the Government were trying to introduce a culture change. I should have thought that that was rather a good idea. Surely we are trying to get people into a mindset whereby they move into the world of work and come off benefits. Anything that can be done to encourage that seems to be a good idea. However, I should like some guidance from the Minister on whether there is any saving to be made here and whether he has any idea how much it would come to.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I, too, have sat right the way through Committee and have been very persuaded that some families—I accept that they are mainly families with children—who are not good managers of money will have difficulties in meeting the Minister’s no doubt otherwise ideal method of providing these benefits. However, I argue that there will be people other than those with families who may not be good with their sums or who, because of mental health problems or other reasons, might much prefer to have weekly or fortnightly payments, rather than monthly payments, which would mean a larger gap to fill with few finances.
Having said that, I accept that the Government clearly have plans in mind for sorting out this problem. However, echoing what others have said, it will be very important to get the support of those of us who have sat through all these debates by explaining in considerable detail exactly how the system will work and what flexibility it will contain. I hope that the Minister will be able to respond to those points.
Welfare Reform Bill
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Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, the speeches that we have heard so far have been extremely powerful and I very much supported the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood. I shall refer to Amendment 113B in the name of my noble friend Lady Sherlock, as well as Amendment 113DA in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay. I feel strongly that structures should follow the objectives and not that we should adapt the objectives to be the outcome of whatever structures we think we can best achieve, which is what is going on, I fear, in Amendment 113B. Amendment 113DA is simply wrong and I am frankly amazed that the DWP has come forward with this proposition. It is morally offensive and I do not know from where it has come.
Like others we have the CSA engraved on our hearts. The 1992 legislation was a catastrophe primarily because it insisted on overturning existing court objectives and becoming retrospective, which means that the new system never caught up even though it was entirely well intentioned. I remember defending our intentions on the 2000 legislation in front of the committee chaired at the time by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood. We found it difficult to persuade the Treasury to budge beyond a £10 hand-back to women, so we could never get women to co-operate in setting the CSA on their old partners, as there was little in it for them.
The moves established by my noble friend in 2008 to allow women to keep all their maintenance was a triumph, but the problem with voluntarism, which also accompanied it, meant that it became a charter for bullies who did not want to pay, as indicated by my noble friend Lady Lister. We know that the people who pay are the men who need to pay most, not the men who need to pay least. They are the men who have been married, divorced, are older, earn more, have a profound attachment to their children and expect and want to pay. They are honourable and decent men and they are the ones who pay most. They pay and behave admirably. We also know, however, the ones who do not pay. They are the young, feckless men who have never actually lived with the child, who is perhaps the result of an overnight relationship, if we can dignify it with that term—a casual sexual act. They think that they were trapped.
There are the chaotic self-employed who never get their accounts right and never find the money to pay for their children. A group that surprised me are the men in uniform who are often very bitter, judgmental and followers of the language of fault—“She had an affair so it is her fault and I don’t pay”—with little regard for the children. Finally, there is the group mentioned by my noble friend Lady Lister—the men who have remarried, with second families whose new partner is often very hostile to any payment. These men change their address, their job, their name, and even their country to avoid paying.
Add to those problems a flaky computer and the problems of HMT, which is not only unwilling for women to keep their money but refuses to share key information so that NRPs can be tracked through their current records. We were not allowed to deduct even a £5 benefit payment at source. It would have been obvious for HMT computers to talk to DWP computers, but that was not possible either. It is no wonder that there has been a struggle ever since.
I fear that increasingly—with these measures, I am convinced of it—the concept of child support has taken a wrong turning in this country. Unless we accept the amendments moved so ably by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, and my noble friend Lady Sherlock, that wrong turning will become a highway down which the failure to pay child maintenance will rapidly escalate. I strongly believe that statutory payment should be not the last resort but the first. That is how we establish the appropriate level of money that should be paid; you establish a speedy pattern of payment. We know from Australia and all the international research that unless you establish payment early and ensure that it is paid regularly for at least a year, it dies within 18 months or two years. Establish payment early and get it paid regularly and there is a hope that you will get amicable contact arrangements. Then the whole thing becomes a virtuous circle.
Having voluntary payment in which the father can bully his way out of payment, as he too often has done, means that it never gets established. If instead we had statutory payment to begin with and then after six months or a year following regular, reliable payments the reward was voluntary negotiations, that would be wonderful. That would combine the best of all worlds. You would establish the pattern of payment, and then, if the father co-operates in that activity, you could allow that couple to make their own future arrangements. That way the child does not suffer. This way, I fear that the rights of the child to income and support from the father—it is the father in all but 3 per cent of cases—are going to get lost in what I have to say is the department pursuing cost cutting rather than ensuring adequate support for children.
We know that regularly paid maintenance is not only good for children in the signal that it sends from fathers about being committed to their children’s lives, but that it can be the payment above all—all the Alan Marsh research shows this—that lifts a lone parent with a couple of children from below the poverty line to above it. It can be transforming. It is like privatised, old fashioned family credit if it is paid and paid regularly. It will be so paid only if it is established early, and that means through a statutory system in which good behaviour allows you to go on to the voluntary path. I very much fear that in going down the path not just of voluntarism but of trying to get rid of CMEC, which at least was trying very hard to ensure that money was paid to children, we will lose the real benefits that are available to children through the poverty objectives and we will be overcome by the structural problems of seeking to reduce costs. That is highly unfortunate.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I apologise for not being here the whole time. I had to chair quite an important meeting on stalking, but that is another matter. I had not realised until just now that the amendment tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, to which I have put my name, is in this group.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, for introducing this group of amendments and acknowledge his long-standing interest and expertise in issues of child maintenance. Like him, I pay tribute to the staff of the CSA and CMEC who, over many years, have stuck with the various iterations of child maintenance that they have had to deal with and sometimes struggle with.
My noble friend Lady Hollis gave us a brief history of child maintenance. It is right that one of the problems and the reason why the first of these amendments in particular—I support them all—is so important is that along the way the CSA has sought to be different things and to achieve different objectives. In 1991, it was substantially focused on the clawback of benefit, so no benefit accrued to children. The 2004 amendments recast that and focused the CSA on child poverty in particular, but, as my noble friend said, it was stymied to a certain extent by not being able to make progress on the disregards. I defend the 2008 changes—noble Lords would not expect me to do otherwise—for a number of reasons. It potentially gets round the problem of those who do not want to pay by the assessment being on the gross income of the non-resident parent, which is obtainable from HMRC. That has not yet been implemented, but it was a key issue in stopping non-resident parents messing up the system, which is what happened to the two previous systems. Voluntary it might have been, but there was an absolute right for either parent to make use of the statutory system with charges, which we are going to come to, that did not deter people on low incomes.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I was more than happy to put my name to this amendment because the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, seemed to be making the right point in this amendment. I am only sorry that my noble friend Lord Northbourne is not in his place because the important parenting responsibility of fathers is one of the areas which he has been pushing for years. As has been stressed, sadly, we are really talking about single parents, 97 per cent of whom are mothers, who are in this position. There was a hope that the citizenship classes which the previous Government introduced would be about your responsibilities to your future children, not about sorting out disputes between you and your own parents, and thinking that the responsibilities of parents ought to be shared.
I am not going to repeat everything that has been said, but I agree that it is wrong in principle to charge single parents, mainly women, who have no alternative, when the other parent refuses to pay maintenance. That is not only unjust; it is, as has already been said, indefensible.
Gingerbread has given us a considerable number of quotes. As the right reverend Prelate said, they are very moving. I shall end by quoting a letter that Gingerbread sent to me, for which I am grateful. The writer was clearly quite sympathetic, in theory, to the Government.
“While I can understand many of the government’s cuts and tax rises—a number of which will directly affect me—I cannot understand these proposals. If only you knew how driven single parents have to be to even apply to the CSA. When I first turned to the CSA five years ago I eventually gave up. It was in such hopeless disarray … Fortunately, a judge laid out maintenance in my divorce agreement and my ex-husband paid up. But two and half years ago he stopped paying and I was forced, with many misgivings, to turn to the CSA. Luckily for me it had been reorganised and was able to progress my claim second time around, although it still took months. When the payments finally started coming via the CSA—you cannot imagine the weight that was lifted off my shoulders. I finally felt I could plan ahead for school trips, clothes and other essentials. The relief has been immense. The truth is that the proposals will only penalise the children the CSA is meant to help. Women generally only turn to the CSA when they have exhausted all other avenues. It’s an act of desperation. Those in government who preach about mediation and private agreements mean well, but they have no idea how difficult some ex-partners can be—some years ago, I would never have believed it myself. My message to the government is this: you will be hurting the very people you are trying to help. And, I fear, partners who only receive small payments will just give up altogether. It will be their children who will suffer. For me it will mean the worry returns—I will have to cut back and I already know that negotiating with my husband is an impossible task. So I will face having money intended for my children taken from me by a government which I trusted to come to my aid, and incurring his wrath over the fees he in addition will have to pay”.
That says it all. It is sad indeed that, although so many of us around this table and outside, would agree “Yes, let’s get everybody to sort out their own arrangements if humanly possible”, there really are situations where it is not going to happen. Until we get education on early intervention going in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, hoped that one day we would be able to encourage the Government to provide for, I fear that we are going to have to fight arrangements like this. It is with that that I happily endorse the amendment in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, I support the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, in what seems to be one of the most important amendments that have come before this Committee in our long hearings. If it is not successful tonight—and no assurance is given—I very much hope that we will return to it on the Floor of the House on Report.
As the noble Lord, Lord Newton, said, those of us who had to deal with some of the Child Support Agency cases in the 1990s will know how desperately searing they were. It was not just one or two, but dozens, and sometimes even hundreds. I used to try to sort out problems with the local officers, either in Caernarfon or in the office that was administering the CSA in north-west England. It came to the point where I started writing to the Minister about each case because I thought that was the only way in which the message would get home. Poverty was referred to a moment ago. If one quotes the figures for the difference between south-east England and other parts, the average GVA per head in Kensington and Chelsea is over nine times that in Anglesey, and that is an average figure. Within Anglesey, there will be poorer people, as of course there will be in Kensington and Chelsea. It does not really matter where they are; it is what they are suffering. We want a system that can be sympathetic towards them; we certainly do not want a system which prevents people making appeals when things are going wrong. It must be our responsibility as a Committee to get that sorted out; if we cannot, then it will be decided on the Floor of the House.
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Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, my Amendment 102A is in this group and I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, has used most of the arguments that I was going to use. I will merely stress the importance of why the payment would be much better paid to the main carer who, in most of these instances, is the mother. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, said that the payment is usually her only source of income. Equally, we know from experience that it will be spent on food and resources such as that which will keep the household together. When there is violence in a family, the payment would also allow a mother to have enough personal income, albeit family income, to seek help from a refuge and so on. I hope that the Minister will think hard about making the payment available, regardless of the circumstances, to just one person. As we have heard, in cases where the payment goes to one person, something like 80 per cent of applications are made by the male in the household.
On the inequalities that exist in some households and the importance of encouraging women who will, under these circumstances, be fighting for their children as well as for themselves and for the opportunity to lead a decent life, I hope that the Government will think carefully about this and will not continue with the approach of just one member of the household being able to apply for the payment.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, briefly, I also support what my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham said. It clearly makes sense and is essential for the rehabilitation of offenders to be begun and appropriately carried through. Above all, the idea of applying it to all people, not necessarily just those who would have qualified in the first instance, must be a sensible way forward. I would have thought that the business of suspension and resumption would apply to very short sentences. I, too, very much hope that the Minister will rethink and at least have these conversations for the long-term benefit of what we are all trying to achieve—less offending in the first place.
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Lord Boswell of Aynho
My Lords, I have not spoken much in Committee on these issues but, very briefly and in support of what has been said, I, too, should like to register my concern. Having had the benefit of reflecting on what has been said so far, there seem to be two underlying themes. The first is that there is a need for the system—that is, the Minister and his officials who are acting on the legislation that we are in the process of enacting—to proceed with a degree of humility. I do not mean fawning or trying to say that there are no problems, or that it is impossible for a Minister to take a decision. A Minister always has to take a decision, or officials must do so in his name. However, I detect in the Minister’s responses this afternoon a readiness to understand that past practice has often been defective and is often, if I may say so, seen to be penal by the individuals concerned when they are in this process as claimants. Therefore, the process needs to be more sensitive to their needs and more conscious of the limitations of the human who has the power to bestow or withdraw the benefit. There should also be more understanding of the fallibility of the system.
Of course, we have to reach a conclusion but the idea of at least some process of iteration, evaluation and progressive change is important. I read the assessment criteria for PIP again today. They say explicitly that trying to get it right is an “iterative process”. That is what we are all trying to do, including the Minister. We are all trying to get a sensitive response. It is important that the process is sensitive not only to the establishment of this situation but to its evolution and development, the representations that are made to it by interested parties and the light of experience.
That brings me to my second point, on flexibility. If we eventually say, “We’ve done an awful lot of consultation and this is where we are. That’s it”, we will get into the danger that the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, reported. That is, if it becomes the law of the Medes and the Persians, we could then find that we are overtaken by events or experience and that it is not good enough. We would then be creating unfair or penal situations, or we would have to tear up the legislation and start again.
All I should like the Minister to say—I think he will want to signal something like this—is that the Government understand that this is an extremely sensitive area, particularly in relation to people on the autistic spectrum, but also more widely. We need an understanding that the system is on the side of individuals who are involved in this process. It is not designed to leave them out, humiliate them or create embarrassment for them; it is designed to be fair to them. I think there is a wish to do that. Fallible officials who need training, and may need retraining or development in this process in the light of experience, should also understand that they, too, are part of this process of discovery. The more we move away from the conventional model of opposition—of advocates and a decision—that we have always enjoyed in the Anglo-American system, towards an understanding that we are trying to hammer out a process that is fair to individuals and reflects their genuine needs, the better and happier we shall be.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I support this suggestion, which would solve an awful lot of problems. It would clearly give the Government time to catch up with their own aims and put them into practice much more clearly and in a way that other people will understand and be able to act on. There is a need for training and, from what we have heard from those who have practical experience, a need for retraining of some of the so-called experts. I am also slightly worried by what the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, said at the end of her contribution about huge sums of money being paid for “expertise” in this area. There was, almost inevitably, a comparison with the individual at the receiving end. Maybe we cannot afford to give them more but it is a small sum compared to what the expert gets. This is another opportunity to strike a better balance.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, I support the amendment. Does the Minister think that it might be worth while if he made a few comments on the issues of continuity and supervision of staff? I hesitate to ask because I am unfamiliar with this area but in the areas of the asylum and immigration process, which has some similarities, and in social work and work with vulnerable children and families, the two themes seem to be, first, continuity of relationship wherever possible and, secondly, good quality supervision.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
I will speak also to Amendment 86AB in my name and that of the noble Countess, Lady Mar, who sends her sincere apologies. Her absence is due to an unbreakable and important appointment. The amendments would ensure that people with fluctuating conditions, such as multiple sclerosis or some mental health conditions, are not unfairly denied PIP simply because their condition is fluctuating. As noble Lords will be well aware by now, such people may not necessarily have had a particular impairment at every point in the past six months but may well have experienced one at some point in the past six months.
To highlight the unpredictability with which people with fluctuating conditions have to live, I share an example from the MS Society of a man with multiple sclerosis. It highlights the unpredictability of a condition which can fluctuate not only month-to-month and week-to-week, but day-to-day and even hour-to-hour, as the right reverend Prelate mentioned earlier. The man states:
“Fatigue is where your body just shuts down. It doesn’t make an appointment with you to do so and you have to just rest immediately. I have to just lie down until it passes. I cannot even talk”.
Yet the current wording of the Bill could be interpreted to mean that a person must have been consistently unwell for the previous six months to qualify for PIP. The Bill states:
“whether, as respects every time in the previous 6 months, it is likely that if the relevant ability had been assessed at that time that ability would have been determined to be limited or (as the case may be) severely limited by the person's physical or mental condition”.
That wording suggests that people with fluctuating conditions will not qualify if they are not consistently ill for the required length of time, regardless of the severity of their condition. I do not know if that is its intended meaning, but given the context in which PIP is being introduced—a desire to save some 20 per cent of the budget, as has been referred to previously—and to reserve PIP for those with the greatest needs, we cannot afford to take that risk.
My amendment, therefore, changes the wording from “every time” to,
“the majority of the time”,
to allow for fluctuations in conditions and for people with fluctuating conditions to be supported accordingly through qualification for eligibility for PIP. My amendment also addresses the retrospective qualifying PIP period, which is currently set at six months—this has also been referred to. That means that a claimant must have been unwell for at least six months before they can apply for PIP. In my view, six months is too long to wait before receiving financial assistance, when the costs incurred during that time from impairment may be substantial and highly detrimental to an individual's quality of life. My amendment therefore changes the requirement from six to three.
Continuing with an “every time” approach that fails to recognise fluctuations would prevent the PIP assessment from accurately recording the severity and extra cost of a condition. If someone has a severe impairment that occurs only about 50 per cent of the time, they will not meet the qualifying condition; whereas someone who has a moderate impairment for most of the time will meet it. That seems extremely unfair. For example, if someone with MS or severe depression has had a few good days in the past six months and if the relevant ability had been assessed during those good days, it is conceivable that the assessment may determine that the relevant ability is not limited by their condition.
Lord Freud
No, no, no. The Treasury is not a disability organisation, let me assure you. Those who know the Treasury well will be absolutely confident in that description.
As I said, it is not a cost matter. It is a matter where people’s sensitivities have been very clearly expressed. We will go away to look at that very, very closely. Some of the observations in this room today will help us in that consideration.
I do not know if there are any other points I really need to make. I just reassure or assure the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, that the required-period condition will not be a snapshot in time. The legislation makes that quite clear by talking about the likelihood of the assessment being met on any particular day. It means that if someone is likely to meet the conditions for the majority of the time, they can safely be taken as being more likely than not to meet them than if we were just randomly to pick a day.
The other issue I need just to touch on, which is often misunderstood, is that during people’s stay in hospital, when the cost of their disability-related needs are being met, individuals will already be fulfilling the required-period condition for personal independence payment. The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, was concerned that filling in your DLA or PIP assessment form was not the first thing on your mind.
That means that when someone is able to leave hospital, perhaps with a care plan in place and further rehabilitation scheduled, they may well have satisfied some or even all of the qualifying period. That currently exists for DLA and is often misunderstood, with people thinking that they become entitled only after they have filled in and submitted the form. The qualifying date starts on the day that the needs arise—the day you have the accident that has caused a particular problem, for instance—not from when the claim form is submitted. I acknowledge that some conditions that arise gradually and it is very difficult to pinpoint the precise day.
With those observations and commitments to reflect, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, it has certainly been a very interesting series of questions—and some answers—with different issues under the different amendments within this group. I will certainly want to reflect on what has been said about my amendments, as well as on some of the issues that have arisen, as to whether they have been as satisfactorily answered as they could be.
The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, made the point about parking costs and so on. We know that some hospitals have begun to make exceptions, but it is fairly appalling that it is going on at all. We would all like to know how widespread is the removal of the requirement to pay for parking if you are going in for a number of cancer treatments.
My other point is that we are not just talking about the actual sufferer but the effect on the entire family—the husband or wife who may very well be put in a position where their own finances are being appallingly hit. There is a lot more that we are going to want to talk about, perhaps on Report, but perhaps by then there will be rather clearer instructions that we will all be able to say meet our points. I hope so. Perhaps I am being a bit over optimistic. Under those circumstances I will, for the moment, withdraw my amendment.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, I apologise to the Minister for being fractionally late and therefore missing his statement. Had I been here, I would no doubt have been pushing him on the questions I now want to raise.
Although we welcome and very much appreciate that the passporting arrangements will be with us before the start of Report, we also need to know the statistics, the numbers. In other words, to what extent will the existing case load of people on middle and higher-rate DLA go through into PIP? Will some of those on the lower rate now come into PIP? If carers are passported, as the Minister gave us hope to believe, from both rates of PIP, will that mean there will be more carers in future because some lower-rate carers will be joining them, or will some disabled people on what is currently the middle rate of DLA, which entitles their carer to receive carers’ allowance, fall out of PIP altogether?
Until we know the mapping of the numbers we cannot understand the implications of the very helpful information the Minister is going to make available. The crude fact is that any carer who is now on CA who finds that the person they are caring for will fall out of middle-rate DLA—therefore they may fall out of even a relatively supportive interpretation of the new PIP arrangements with both tiers entitling you on to it—will then find themselves suddenly excluded from having carers’ allowance. Because they are caring for someone for 35 hours a week, that will vanish. As a result they will be exposed to full, in-work conditionality even though the care needs of that person—35 hours a week—will not disappear.
We need to know those numbers and they are issues that we are going to have to reflect on in Committee before we get to the relevant clauses associated with DLA and ESA. Will the noble Lord kindly say whether he will be able not just to tell us before Report, as I hope, that both the upper and lower rate of PIP will entitle you to carers’ allowance but how those two populations rub on to the two existing populations? Will there be losers as well as possibly gainers among carers with all the possible implications they will be exposed to? The Minister may be able to tell us what happens to disabled people and the numbers coming into the PIP framework.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I hope the Committee will forgive me for coming in at this stage. Earlier today, Carers UK asked me to ask a supplementary on this which is not dissimilar from what we have just heard. There are more than 560 carers receiving carers’ allowance and so on and they may well transfer over into PIP. The Minister has made it clear that decisions are going to be made and will be looked at in detail, but these are the questions Carers UK wanted me to ask. First, what assessments are being made on the impact of carers of the two options available—establishing eligibility through both rates or just through the enhanced rate of the daily living component? Secondly, if the Minister is unable to announce a decision—which he obviously is—on which rate will lead to eligibility for carers’ allowance, will he publish the assessments of the impact on both options so that the Committee can discuss their implications?
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I start by thanking, I think, the Minister for his very helpful responses on three months rather than six. That was on residential and now we are to have this early announcement. It leaves those of us who prepared speeches throwing them away. There is a nice bucket here with all of them. Nevertheless, I am always delighted to be able to do that and we thank the Minister for what he has just said.
The amendment, which also stands in the name of my noble friend Lord McKenzie, would establish in the Bill that PIP will act as the gateway for the carers’ allowance and that both rates of the PIP daily living allowance would deliver eligibility. We welcome the fact and therefore do not need to go through all the reasons why we needed to have this. We welcome that we will have that information on passporting before Report, whenever that may be.
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Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, we have all been very moved by the speeches made by our disabled colleagues, particularly that made by my noble friend Lady Campbell, who put it so beautifully clearly. Perhaps one of the reasons is that quite a number of our colleagues in your Lordships’ House are getting older and are beginning to have some form of disability, which makes one a little more aware of the needs. I do not know whether this form of words is necessary but the more that I have listened to the fact that the word “disability” is missing from the description, the more worried I am, not least when you hear how the press is reacting and the effect that that may have.
On listening to noble Lords, I clearly recognised the detailed areas of their special needs. That was useful knowledge on which to play the rest of our approach to this Bill. I hope that the Minister will take back to his colleagues the sort of reasoning that has taken place during this debate. His colleagues are probably engaged in goodness only knows how many other debates around Parliament, but if they had been able to be here I hope that they would have been at least as moved as I was and would have changed their approach. I hope that he will be persuasive in getting them to do just that.
The Countess of Mar
My Lords, I, too, support these amendments. I think particularly of people with fluctuating conditions which eventually become so bad that they are housebound, bedridden and almost unable to get out, and of the 25 per cent of people suffering from ME who are in this state. I should say that I am the chairman of Forward-ME. Every day I get letters from people who are terrified of what is going to happen when the PIP is brought in. However, I am grateful to the Minister and to the Deputy Chief Medical Officer at the Department for Work and Pensions for specifically asking for people with ME to be part of the pilot programme for the PIP. But the feedback I am getting is that the people who are examining them have no understanding at all of their illness. We are talking about a personal independence payment, which is the idea the examiners have in their mind, against a disability payment. However, these are severely disabled people—we have heard some very moving speeches from my noble friends and from the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins—who cannot even get out of their houses. They must have help with their laundry, cleaning and shopping—with everything. To call it a personal independence payment does not help them, I fear, so I strongly support this amendment.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I will be brief as I have not put my name to any amendments in the group, but there is a definite case for someone who has listened intently to what was said to back the arguments. The noble Lord, Lord Touhig, recalled to my mind a time in the early 1980s when—I usually get this phrase wrong—my noble kinsman held parties at No. 11 Downing Street. I was very involved with the National Autistic Society. The Christmas party, with him as Father Christmas, was held for the benefit of autistic children. In those days, autism covered just one group. Now there is differentiation between different forms of autism, as there is with many other forms of illness.
My noble friend Lady Grey-Thompson moved her amendment sensibly and practically. The requirement that the health implications of what the patient was suffering from should be known before any decisions are taken is obvious and essential, quite apart from all the other good reasons why various aspects should be taken into account. The communications skills that are so important in everything have yet again been re-emphasised.
I will say no more, but I hope that the Minister—if he is listening—will say something very positive. I hope that he has listened to and has been as impressed as I have been by the arguments that were made for something rather more positive in the Bill.
Baroness Healy of Primrose Hill
My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 86ZZA, 86ZA and 86ZB in my name. First I will say a few words in support of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord German. It is vital for adults with autism spectrum conditions to have this right. It is essential that a claimant whose disability impedes communication has an advocate to help them understand the meaning of questions fully and provide accurate answers. The condition also means that many claimants with autism experience high levels of anxiety. A known advocate would be a reassuring presence in an interview.
An autistic adult may have communication problems that are not obvious to the interviewer. That their answers could dictate whether they get the support they need purely on the grounds that they did not adequately understand what was being asked would be very unfair. Judging by the Explanatory Notes to the new draft regulations, which suggest that a claimant can bring another person to a face-to-face assessment, the Government might be sympathetic to the need for such support. However, without clear rights and duties to ensure that advocates are involved, there is no guarantee that such an advocate can attend, translate at and participate in the interview. Therefore claimants must be explicitly informed of their rights, and it cannot be left to the discretion of the assessor.
Amendment 86ZZA, which was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and has already been mentioned by my noble friend Lord Touhig, is about the need for adequate training for assessors. I strongly support it. It is important because it is a safeguard against the fear of many parents that their autistic adult children will not be understood and that the wrong decisions will be taken about their needs and their ability to work. Families from the ACT NOW campaign group are very concerned that inadequately trained assessors will not understand the complexities of autism. They also believe that the government target to reduce expenditure on DLA by £1 billion will seriously prejudice individual discretionary decisions.
Although I welcome the Government’s acceptance of Professor Harrington’s recommendation that there should be mental, intellectual and cognitive champions in each medical assessment, I hope that that will also apply to the assessment of DLA—which possibly may become PIP—and that assessors will have training in autism as well as specific understanding of the limits of their knowledge and will know when to ask for expert advice. It should also be possible for assessors to have access to an expert champion to provide that advice.
The amendment would guarantee the safeguard of properly trained assessors who will have access to the necessary range of medical and psychological expertise. It is about ensuring a standard, regularised system of excellence that will deliver a high-class public service across the country. Families that have been through so much in trying to ensure that their children will be able to live independent lives need to know that the Government acknowledge their concerns and will not leave their child’s future well-being in the hands of inadequately trained and inexperienced assessors whose judgments could result in disastrous consequences. Families are concerned that if, as a result of the proposed 20 per cent cut, the new benefit focuses only on those with the greatest needs, their adult children with autism, who perhaps are unable to access social care support, will also lose this key benefit because of misjudgments by assessors who may be expected to take decisions influenced by the pursuit of targets that have been designed to reduce costs and the number of people on benefits.
Finally, I support the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Touhig to allow claimants not to be put through face-to-face assessments where it is possible to determine the claimant’s entitlement to benefits on the basis of available medical or social care assessment evidence. Interviews and other similar kinds of encounters may cause people with an autism-spectrum condition severe mental anguish. It is not the nervousness or anxiety that we may experience at the approach of a difficult or unpleasant event, but dread and terror. A person with autism has autism for life, as my noble friend pointed out. It is surely unnecessary to repeat a PIP assessment every few years. For many, it will be needless cruelty. A mother of a 20 year-old man with Asperger’s said of his medical assessments, “I think the whole process is completely overwhelming for people with autism”.
The amendments seek to ensure that people who have been diagnosed by medical or social care professionals as having a condition that is unlikely to change significantly or that will deteriorate over time are released from the threat of constant assessment which in so many cases adds to their anxiety and so makes their condition more difficult for them and their carers to manage. Many, but not all, DLA claimants with autism typically undergo a number of assessments by expert professionals. Reports from these assessments will be available, as well as detailed information about them from professionals working with them. The National Autistic Society, to which I am grateful for its briefing, has argued strongly that in many cases an additional assessment by DWP is therefore unnecessary.