Mental Capacity (Amendment) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Hollins and Baroness Murphy

Committee: 3rd sitting - (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 22nd October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Murphy]

May I just add that I think it is important to read all the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton? She provides for any opportunity, any chance, that the individual may indicate that they have changed their mind, at which point those things come to an end, essentially. They have to be quite specific that if there is any doubt in somebody’s mind that this is no longer something that can be continued, that there is anxiety about them being implemented, then it comes to an end. So I think those things can be taken care of.

[Baroness Hollins]

My Lords, these amendments are examples of the long and complicated amendments which I think could end up going wrong, because they are trying to cover quite a lot, which will probably become gold-plated and give rather too much weight to the legal profession. I do not think that what Sir Simon Wessely planned to do is relevant here, because it is not really about mental illness but about dementia. If that is the case, people may not be in a position to change their mind at a later date, so these amendments are very complicated and probably rather unwise.

Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Hollins and Baroness Murphy

Friday 7th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hollins (CB)]

My Lords, as a doctor, I would also much prefer a judicial process. I had the good fortune yesterday to speak to Professor Peter Rubin, the chair of the General Medical Council. I asked him whether many doctors had yet been referred to the GMC because they had failed to provide adequate pain relief to someone in the last days of their life. He said he did not know the answer but kindly drew my attention to the GMC’s guidance, which I thought would be good information and useful for our discussion. It is entitled, Treatment and Care Towards the End of Life: Good Practice in Decision Making. He referred me in particular to paragraphs 24 to 27. I shall read just a short part of paragraph 27, which states:

“You must seek advice or a second opinion from a colleague with relevant experience … if … you and the healthcare team have limited experience of the condition … you are uncertain about how to manage a patient’s symptoms effectively”,

and if,

“you are in doubt about the range of options, or the benefits, burdens and risks of a particular option for the individual patient”.

I will not finish reading out the paragraph. Although we may lead the world in palliative care, it is still a developing but important specialty and area of expertise, and we should give it adequate opportunity to continue to develop without interfering and changing the role of the doctor.

[Baroness Murphy (CB)]

My Lords, I will stick to the amendment. I told the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, a few days ago that I would not support it for all the reasons that the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, mentioned, and the reasons raised by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. This is a decision by patients—let us come back to them—it is not a decision by doctors. Any judicial intervention placed between the patient and the processes by which they could be helped in what they want is likely to be difficult. Remember also that patients every day make decisions to end their lives. They make a decision not to have that last chemotherapy offered to them. They have had perhaps a year of it and they do not want any more. That wish is respected, their capacity is rarely mentioned and they make that decision.

However, I have thought a great deal over the past few days and looked again at the Second Reading debate. The anxiety raised was sufficient to suggest that perhaps we need to put in a process that can be quick. Operating in the mental health world, I know that the courts can readily convene at 24 hours’ notice; I have often had to take a magistrate’s order and get a court decision quite quickly. It is possible for someone to have judicial oversight within a short time if the process is developed correctly. Looking at the range of options provided in this group of amendments, I would say that the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, are worth supporting, and I will go with them despite my original anxieties. They will make the Bill workable and not destroy it, whereas the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, would make it unworkable. For that reason, I urge all noble Lords who like the principles of the Bill to support the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, in his amendments.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Hollins and Baroness Murphy

Monday 5th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Murphy]

My Lords, it will be no surprise for you to hear me say that I support all the amendments in this group. I do not really understand the need for the change in Section 117 on aftercare provisions. I am not quite sure what the tidying up is about or what the matter is with the existing arrangements. They are complicated to deliver but nevertheless seem to be utterly essential in the way in which they are currently framed. I would need to be convinced that there was some serious reason for changing them, as they apparently will be in the Bill.

As I understand it, we did not struggle with the provisions on independent mental health advocates during the proceedings on the 2007 Bill. While it is thought that parents could take the place of advocates in negotiating treatment, the proposals for independent mental health advocates for children are important in adding to the quality of services, and I support that.

The major thrust of my support relates to the amendment in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and other noble Lords. It is my fervent belief that one day we will look back in this House and be horrified at how we structure our mental health legislation. The fact that we do not have legislation on capacity-based decision-making seems to be a terrible tragedy and is extraordinary, given that we see in Scotland that it is perfectly capable of being implemented safely. We should be at the forefront of developing legislation that destigmatises mental health services and allows people to make their own decisions about treatment.

We will have to wait a long time for that, but this amendment focuses on something that many of us predicted would be overused, and I regret to say that it is all too obvious that it is being overused for the wrong people. Yes, there are some people for whom community treatment orders should be used, but if we had legislation for capacity-based community treatment orders we would still be able to implement them safely. I strongly support the noble Baroness’s amendment.

[Baroness Hollins]

My Lords, I support these amendments. I was president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists when the Mental Health Bill was passing through this House and I remember listening to and reading the debates with great interest. I know that noble Lords on the government Benches, including the noble Earl the Minister, at the time very much supported capacity-based legislation. It works well in Scotland, but what was anticipated here would happen has happened—far too many people are subject to community treatment orders who know what they are doing and are no risk to themselves or to others. It would be good if it were possible in this Bill to make a change on this issue that made sense.