Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Hollins and Baroness Merron

Report stage
Monday 31st March 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by saying how grateful I am to noble Lords for their amendments and for the contributions they have made today. I express my thanks at the beginning of this first day of Report for the generosity of time and expertise of noble Lords from across the House—I have greatly appreciated it.

I turn now to the specifics. As the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, is aware, I agree with the principle behind Amendment 1, but there are limited circumstances where it might be appropriate to use the Mental Capacity Act to ensure that patients get the right support. I am glad that the noble Baroness welcomed my letter and that it was helpful. For people who have recently received treatment for a psychiatric disorder under the Mental Health Act, the Mental Capacity Act may be required to continue to support the individual in hospital in the short term while a community-based placement is being arranged.

Monitoring our reforms will indeed be crucial, as many noble Lords have said today. The NHS England assuring transformation dataset collects data on the number of people with a learning disability and autistic people detained in mental health in-patient settings under the Mental Capacity Act. As the noble Baroness herself referred to, the current number is fewer than five; nevertheless, it is, as she said, important.

I reiterate from this Dispatch Box the commitment that I made in the letter. Ahead of reforms to Part II, Section 3, we commit to monitoring the number of people with a learning disability and autistic people who are detained under the Mental Capacity Act, and will include a line on this in standard publications. Should we see an increase in this number following the reforms and discover that the Mental Capacity Act is being used inappropriately, we will ensure that appropriate action is taken.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, for her work on long-term segregation. Many noble Lords have raised facilities and community resourcing. I will address this, and the concerns about commitments in this Act being applied, when I turn to Amendments 4 to 6. On Amendments 3 and 55, there is a requirement in the Mental Health Units (Use of Force) Act 2018 to publish instances of isolation in mental health units. We have consulted on making this and other restrictive practices notifiable to the CQC within 72 hours for all patients in mental health hospitals, allowing the regulator to take prompt appropriate action.

Practical concerns were raised through the consultation that was held, which we are legally required to consider. I hope noble Lords will understand that because of this I am unable to commit to mandating reporting at this stage or to give a timeline, which I was asked for. However, noble Lords can be well assured that I more than understand the urgency. My officials have written to the CQC to commission it to develop a proportionate reporting mechanism, as has been referred to, and these changes can be made in regulations.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, asked about restricted practice notification. Because this is to be made in regulations, clearly that will be, as usual, when parliamentary time allows. Every NHS-funded organisation is responsible for ensuring that safeguarding duties are applied. The code of practice requires the local safeguarding team to be made aware of any patient in long-term segregation.

On Amendment 56, the code of practice already sets out that a patient’s situation should be reviewed by a clinician at least once every 24 hours and at least weekly by the multidisciplinary team. The CQC has received funding to continue the programme of independent care or care (education) and treatment reviews for two years, and reviews recommenced in May 2024. We need to consider the programme’s impacts and the outcome of the spending review before future decisions are taken. Doing this outside legislation allows for flexibility. The independent care (education) and treatment reviews model has evolved as we have learned about what works best. We want to be able to continue to deliver the right approach. On Amendment 52, we will review the guidance in the code of practice on the use of long-term segregation, drawing on available evidence. This does not require primary legislation.

To my point on drawing on available evidence, we will indeed use the report of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, alongside other evidence, to consider changes that need to be made to the Mental Health Act code of practice, which we will review as part of the implementation of the Mental Health Act reforms after Royal Assent. We hope that this, alongside other actions that we are taking—including the continuation of ICETRs and NHS England’s quality transformation programme—will make progress to reduce long-term segregation.

There were points raised about Amendment 53, which we will return to in the debate on the fifth group. On Amendment 57, it is our belief that this duplicates existing requirements. The Mental Health Units (Use of Force) Act 2018, once fully implemented, will require mental health units to have a responsible person who must keep a record of any use of force by staff.

I absolutely understand the concerns that many noble Lords have raised about community support. This has driven Amendments 4 to 6. I also recognise the need for accountability and scrutiny of these reforms—a point that has been made several times.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, that I hope I am about to do better by him than, “It will be all right on the night”, but he will be able to judge that. I am pleased with what I can commit, which is that within a year of Royal Assent, and each year subsequently, we will lay a Written Ministerial Statement in both Houses. This will include setting out details of the work that has been done over the preceding 12 months to implement this legislation and plans for how we will implement future reforms. It will include progress on the learning disability and autism reforms and plans for community provision.

Regarding Amendment 68 and the remarks by the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, we have heard concerns about possible unintended consequences, such as the potential criminalisation of individuals or detention via other legislative routes. To avoid such scenarios, we will commence changes to Section 3 only once there are strong community services in place and it is safe to do so, because flexibility is essential.

I hope that these commitments will satisfy noble Lords not to press their amendments.

[Baroness Hollins (CB)]

Will parliamentarians be able to question and amend the plan that will be laid before Parliament every year? The lack of ability to influence that process and that plan concerns noble Lords.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I have heard from noble Lords that they are concerned with having transparency, holding the Government to account and being updated on the situation. I absolutely agree with all those points, which is why I am pleased to make that commitment. Parliament has a number of routes available to it to hold the Government to account. I have just outlined the manner in which we will be transparent and the way the Government will be held to account by having to do that. As always, parliamentarians have the ability to scrutinise in many ways.

Autism and Learning Disabilities: Hospital Detention

Debate between Baroness Hollins and Baroness Merron

Tuesday 11th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for tempting me to agree with her comments about a mental health commissioner. We have debated that, and the noble Baroness is aware that we do not feel that this is the right way forward. However, I am sure we will return to that on Report.

With regard to not waiting for the Mental Health Bill to become an Act, of course I agree. The number of people with a learning disability and autistic people who are in mental health hospitals is unacceptable, and there are still too many detained who could be supported in their communities. We have taken immediate action in allocating funding to local areas: £124 million for learning disability and autism services. We are making sure that the workforce has the right skills and knowledge through work such as the HOPE(S) model. We are providing for the CQC to deliver independent care (education) and treatment reviews. NHS planning guidance provides a continued focus on improving mental health and learning disability care, with an objective to deliver a minimum—I emphasise minimum— 10% reduction in the use of in-patient care.

[Baroness Hollins (CB)]

My Lords, for 25 years, this woman’s detention was in long-term segregation. My review of this practice, which was commissioned by the previous Government, recommended that people in LTS must have an independent review, should have national support to reduce confinement, and be allocated an independent project manager to co-ordinate their timely discharge. But despite the unequivocal success of the ICETR programme, the HOPE(S) intervention and senior intervenors’ support, funding has been cut at the end of this year. Will the Government commit to funding these vital initiatives to end this rights-depriving restrictive practice?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for her contribution and expertise in this area, which I know we all look to in your Lordships’ House, as well as outside it. The points she makes are quite right and important. On this particular case, which is very sad and concerning, I understand that the person is now living in the community with 24/7 care and has been since 2022. I saw at Rampton how people were being supported out into the community with the right support. On the example the noble Baroness gave, we are very keen to improve the uptake of advocacy services, and she will know that all these matters are being addressed in our discussions on the Mental Health Bill.

Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Hollins and Baroness Merron

Committee stage
Monday 24th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hollins (CB)]

There seemed to be an assumption that long-term segregation would continue and that perhaps ICETRs are not effective, but one thing that emerges from an independently chaired review is some learning about the barriers in place and the reasons why LTS is being used, rather than more therapeutic options. That is the reason for this kind of oversight being necessary. It is not necessarily that the ICETR itself will lead to recommendations being implemented; in my report, we found that the recommendations were not being followed—they were made and then not followed through. There needs to be much more effort to try to learn from what is happening and begin to change the culture of LTS as an okay response to somebody’s distress.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I understand that point, and the noble Baroness makes it very well. I simply refer her to the points that I made about needing to look at evidence, the outcomes and the value of those reviews, and whether that is the right approach for everyone. I take on board her point, but my comments probably tell the Committee that we feel that there is more work to be done in this area.

Health and Adult Social Care Reform

Debate between Baroness Hollins and Baroness Merron

Tuesday 7th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Both the points that the noble Lord makes are very welcome and shine a light on the need to be more flexible in the range of services and care provided. It should not be just an either/or. People have intermediate stages. Some of the issues about discharge are about having a position in the middle, which is more about rehabilitation, and having the things in place to allow people perhaps to return home or to some other setting.

There is also the point about having a range of settings. Currently, the offer is perhaps too restrictive, although not in all places, as there are some excellent examples. We must be much more creative in the kind of offer that is available and in the training of care workers, not just for the service that they offer to patients, which is important, but for their professionalisation and their morale in their jobs.

[Baroness Hollins (CB)]

My Lords, why is there no mention of mental health in the Statement? What happened to parity, I wonder? For example, 12,400 hospital patients a day are well enough to be discharged. I presume that this does not include the 1,500 or so autistic people and people with learning disabilities who are waiting to be discharged from psychiatric hospitals but for whom there is no social care? Community diagnostic centres are mentioned but there is nothing about the need for 24-hour community drop-in centres for citizens who have mental health problems. Social care costs for elderly people may be expected to double, but what about the increasing costs of care for disabled adults of working age?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Baroness makes very real and important points. Some of the points in the Statement cover mental and physical health but, if I might be honest about the situation, this is only one of the things that we are putting forward. As I said at the beginning of this Statement, how I wish that we could deal with everything immediately. It is not possible. This is just the first stage in the journey that we are on. I hope that the noble Baroness is reassured by the direction that we are taking, the commitments and the work that we have already done on mental health. The Committee stage of the Mental Health Bill next week will also be a very significant step forward. I absolutely accept that there is so much more to do, and we will be getting through that.

Palliative and End-of-life Care: Funding

Debate between Baroness Hollins and Baroness Merron

Wednesday 4th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Baroness is quite right to raise this, and I can give her that assurance. She raises the point about identification of people with specific needs. I am interested to see that there are some very good examples of local good practice—for example, in Dorset, where they have proactively gone out to identify who needs palliative and end-of-life care. By so doing, they have raised the percentage of the local population who should be receiving it. That is a model we will want to look at. With regard to those who have particular needs, as the noble Baroness describes, I think that model will be helpful too.

[Baroness Hollins (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister has rightly pointed to the growing need for excellent palliative care close to home, and I am glad of that, but I wonder whether she is aware of the Hospice UK report pointing to the number of redundancies occurring across the sector. In the context of the 2022 Act, which required the NHS to commission adequate NHS care, this seems to be rather urgent, not just to provide good care for people but to reduce the impact on the acute hospital sector of not providing palliative care.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Baroness is right in her observations, and we certainly recognise that times are difficult, particularly for many voluntary and charitable organisations including hospices, for example, due to the increased cost of living. We are working alongside key partners and NHS England to proactively engage with stakeholders, including the voluntary sector and independent hospices, because we want to understand the issues they face and to seek solutions to them.