Assisted Dying Bill [HL]
Baroness Hollins Excerpts(10 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Howard of Lympne
I am so aware but I would prefer that investigation to be carried out by the court. That is the issue between us. It is another reason why one or other of these amendments—I prefer the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile—should be passed if the Bill is to become law.
Baroness Hollins (CB)
My Lords, as a doctor, I would also much prefer a judicial process. I had the good fortune yesterday to speak to Professor Peter Rubin, the chair of the General Medical Council. I asked him whether many doctors had yet been referred to the GMC because they had failed to provide adequate pain relief to someone in the last days of their life. He said he did not know the answer but kindly drew my attention to the GMC’s guidance, which I thought would be good information and useful for our discussion. It is entitled, Treatment and Care Towards the End of Life: Good Practice in Decision Making. He referred me in particular to paragraphs 24 to 27. I shall read just a short part of paragraph 27, which states:
“You must seek advice or a second opinion from a colleague with relevant experience … if … you and the healthcare team have limited experience of the condition … you are uncertain about how to manage a patient’s symptoms effectively”,
and if,
“you are in doubt about the range of options, or the benefits, burdens and risks of a particular option for the individual patient”.
I will not finish reading out the paragraph. Although we may lead the world in palliative care, it is still a developing but important specialty and area of expertise, and we should give it adequate opportunity to continue to develop without interfering and changing the role of the doctor.
Baroness Murphy (CB)
My Lords, I will stick to the amendment. I told the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, a few days ago that I would not support it for all the reasons that the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, mentioned, and the reasons raised by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. This is a decision by patients—let us come back to them—it is not a decision by doctors. Any judicial intervention placed between the patient and the processes by which they could be helped in what they want is likely to be difficult. Remember also that patients every day make decisions to end their lives. They make a decision not to have that last chemotherapy offered to them. They have had perhaps a year of it and they do not want any more. That wish is respected, their capacity is rarely mentioned and they make that decision.
However, I have thought a great deal over the past few days and looked again at the Second Reading debate. The anxiety raised was sufficient to suggest that perhaps we need to put in a process that can be quick. Operating in the mental health world, I know that the courts can readily convene at 24 hours’ notice; I have often had to take a magistrate’s order and get a court decision quite quickly. It is possible for someone to have judicial oversight within a short time if the process is developed correctly. Looking at the range of options provided in this group of amendments, I would say that the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, are worth supporting, and I will go with them despite my original anxieties. They will make the Bill workable and not destroy it, whereas the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, would make it unworkable. For that reason, I urge all noble Lords who like the principles of the Bill to support the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, in his amendments.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
My Lords, technically speaking this is a debate on Amendment 6, which was moved by the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney. Some of the observations that have been made are not very clearly directed to that. All the same, I will talk about one of them.
The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, is best dealt with by Clause 4(2)(c): that the doctors administering the poison are to be sure that they have confirmed that the person has not revoked and does not intend to revoke their declaration at the last minute. As has been said, the patient has the last word in this sense: they can stop the injection if they do not want to have it at that point. If they have changed their mind following the declaration, there is ample safeguard in the Bill against any, as it were, forced injection.
I will say one thing on the intervention by the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock. As I understand it, if we bring children into the world we have responsibilities for them. Those responsibilities should not be regarded as burdens that are somehow affected by the Bill. It would be extremely dangerous to take the view, for example, that a disabled child should feel responsible for the care responsibilities that they put on their parents. If that child thinks that there is an obligation to die, because it is the only way to remove that obligation from their parents, then that is a most dangerous doctrine. In view of what the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, said, I felt that that was something that needed to be put on record.
Baroness Hollins
My Lords, I believe we are debating the whole of the group, although I do agree with the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, that the assessment of capacity and settlement of the decision needs to be done at the moment that that decision is finalised. I do not think that the other amendments in the group are rigorous enough. My Amendments 71 and 151 have three main elements. I am drawing on my experience as a psychiatrist working with disabled people—in particular people with intellectual disabilities—and of teaching medical students about the assessment of capacity for more than 30 years.
The first element to which I want to draw attention is that, in consideration of any request for assistance with suicide, positive action is taken to establish that there is no evidence of mental disorder. The second element is the need to establish the presence of a decision-making capacity that is commensurate with a decision of this nature, as has already been suggested by my noble friend. Thirdly, the amendments propose a regime for ensuring that clinical opinions about the absence of mental disorder and the presence of decision-making capacity are taken on the basis of expert assessment.
There are in England and Wales two circumstances when a person is not permitted to make healthcare decisions themselves. One is when they lack mental capacity in relation to the relevant decision. The Mental Capacity Act 2005 applies to many decisions but assistance with suicide is explicitly excluded. Other noble Lords will explain more about decision-making capacity and the findings of the recent post-legislative scrutiny Select Committee of your Lordships’ House which examined this Act and of which I was a member.
The other circumstance when people are not permitted to make healthcare decisions for themselves is when they suffer from a mental disorder of a nature or degree that warrants, for assessment under Section 2, or makes it necessary, for treatment under Section 3, for the person to be in hospital in the interests of their health or safety or for the protection of others. If a person was depressed or anxious and wished to kill themselves, they would normally be stopped from doing so with the authority of the Mental Health Act 1983, so the additional assessments that I am suggesting in this amendment should relate not only to impaired judgment but, first, to whether the person has a mental disorder.
I remind noble Lords that the definition of mental disorder is,
“any disorder or disability of the mind”.
The psychiatrist making such an assessment must be Section 12 approved, as required by the Mental Health Act. The Mental Health Act is risk based, not capacity based. If it is in the interests of his health, a person with a mental disorder can be detained and treated. It overrides personal autonomy. The Mental Health Act does not require any impairment of judgment or decision-making capacity to be present.
If you have a mental disorder then, whether you are capacitous or not, you will not be given assistance to die. The Mental Health Act would take precedence and the person’s mental illness would need to be treated effectively before any assessment of their decision-making capacity was made. Therefore, the Mental Health Act provides another safeguard.
As I read the Bill, nothing would stop patients detained under the Mental Health Act, if they retained decision-making capacity, from being given medication to end their life. That is clearly wrong. I shall go further: it relates not just to patients who are already detained but to those who, if assessed, would meet the criteria for detention in order to treat their mental illness.
Wishing to end one’s life is a common symptom of mental illness, normally regarded as constituting grounds for psychiatric assessment. Suicide itself is not unlawful but, as a society, we regard suicidal intent as a reason to protect a patient from self-harm. We do not take the view that we should intervene in a case of suicidal intent only if we have reason to believe that the person concerned lacks capacity; we assume that a person who announces or otherwise indicates intent to take his or her own life is not acting rationally, and we do everything possible to discourage or prevent him or her proceeding. That is what all the suicide watches and all the suicide prevention strategies that successive Governments have introduced in recent years are about. Indeed, the national confidential inquiry into suicide and homicide, NCISH, which I chaired from 2007 to 2010, was set up to inform clinical practice and health policy with a view to reducing suicide rates.
The noble and learned Lord’s Bill makes it clear at Clause 6 that it is seeking to amend the Suicide Act 1961. Some may not see the provision of lethal drugs to a seriously ill person as assistance with suicide but in law that is what it is. This leads me to conclude that the Bill is out of alignment with social attitudes to suicide.
The Assisted Dying Bill also fails to provide a strong enough assurance that a person requesting assisted suicide has the mental capacity to make this decision. Capacity assessment must be decision-specific. The more serious the decision, the greater the level of assurance required that the person making the decision has commensurate capacity; that is, a level of capacity appropriate to the decision in question. The key purpose of my amendments is to ensure that there is mandated, at least in outline, a proper process for establishing the absence of mental disorder and for taking positive action to ensure the presence of commensurate capacity.
Children and Vulnerable Adults: Abuse
Baroness Hollins Excerpts(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Baroness Hollins (CB)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, on initiating this very important debate. I will focus on some of the measures needed to prevent and address the abuse of children and adults with learning disabilities. I do this as a family carer of a vulnerable adult and from my perspective as a psychiatrist working in learning disabilities for more than 30 years. The House will also wish to know that I am a member of the recently established papal commission for the protection of minors.
Why is it important to focus on people with learning disabilities, or “intellectual disabilities” as they are known around the world? There are 1.5 million of them in the United Kingdom. They are one of the most vulnerable groups in our society yet they are also one of the most marginalised, underserved and least able to protect themselves. The appalling abuse at Winterbourne View that was uncovered in 2011 focused policymakers’ attention on the abuse of adults with learning disabilities, adults who are more at risk of all forms of abuse. Similarly, compared with their non-disabled peers, children with learning disabilities are three times more likely to experience neglect, bullying and abuse. There are long-term consequences of abuse for well-being, psychological well-being and mental health, with a strong link to depression and harm. The National Association for People Abused in Childhood provides support for adult survivors of childhood abuse and it reports that the demand for its services, including a telephone support line, is currently at an all-time high.
The Serious Crime Bill makes it explicit that under the Children and Young Persons Act emotional cruelty likely to cause psychological harm to a child is an offence. I suggest that that should also include witnessing domestic abuse. Given the increased risk of abuse and neglect, it is vital that we consider whether these measures taken by the Government will adequately protect children and adults with learning disabilities. The Care Act, which received Royal Assent in May, provides a clear legal framework for how the health and care system should work together with the safeguarding adult boards. The Act requires local authorities to make inquiries when they think that an adult with care and support needs may be at risk, and to take action if needed. To tackle problems quickly and prevent them happening again, it is vital that organisations share information with the SABs. The Act makes it clear that if an SAB requests relevant information from an organisation or an individual, they must provide it. Clearly, for local authorities to perform their duties, they need to identify that someone is at risk.
Since 2010, there has been a mandatory requirement to submit abuse of vulnerable adults returns to the NHS Health and Social Care Information Centre. In February, the centre’s report on safeguarding adults referrals revealed that of the nearly 42,000 men who received safeguarding referrals in 2012-13 nearly 11,000 had a learning disability, as did nearly 10,000 of the 65,000 women who were reported. Worryingly, these figures may be the tip of the iceberg as we know that the abuse of both adults and children with learning disabilities is under reported. We know that the families of those at Winterbourne View who raised concerns were not listened to and that a member of staff who acted as a whistleblower went unheard. It is shocking that it took a TV documentary for that abuse to come to light. What steps are the Government taking to ensure early identification and prompt reporting?
Those working with adults and children with learning disabilities must receive training on signs of abuse and neglect. When people with learning disabilities speak up, we need to ensure that those listening, whether professionals in health, education, social care or the police, have the skills to communicate in a way that that person understands. We know that these people are often unable to speak out for themselves so we need to ensure that families and carers are listened to when they have concerns.
I am encouraged that the Department of Health has commissioned a whistleblowing helpline, to be provided by Mencap, for staff and organisations working within health and social care and I commend the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, for her amendment to the Serious Crime Bill that will make it a duty for people who work in regulated activities with children or vulnerable adults and who suspect abuse to report it to the local authority. I too support mandatory reporting.
Reporting a suspicion that turns out to be inaccurate must not become a disciplinary matter for health and social care professionals—the needs of the child or vulnerable adult are paramount, however distressing false suspicion may be for others involved. Where suspicions are found to be correct, taking immediate action to protect the victim and others from further abuse and neglect is imperative but we must also ensure that appropriate treatment is available for the perpetrators of abuse.
What about prevention? People with learning disabilities have the same human rights as everyone else—the same rights to freedom from abuse and neglect, the same rights to be treated with dignity and respect. However, they also need to be empowered with education. They need to know their rights, what abuse and neglect are and what to do if this is happening to them. This is difficult. Some people may find it easier to understand pictures rather than words. Books Beyond Words uses pictures to tell stories about difficult topics, including abuse, to engage and empower people with learning disabilities and to facilitate their discussion with those who are supporting them. I declare an interest as chair of the charitable organisation that develops these pictures and this method of communicating.
The Government must take measures to prevent abuse or neglect of children and adults with learning disabilities happening in the first place. We need interventions to be offered before there is a need to resort to criminal prosecution. Parents and carers sometimes feel isolated, overwhelmed and unable to cope with their responsibilities and they need specialist support to be available when they need it.
As the scandal at Winterbourne View highlighted so starkly, we need to ensure as well that those meant to be providing care to children and adults with learning disabilities as paid care workers are fit to do so. Many of these care workers are underqualified and poorly paid. We need to ensure that care workers receive a better wage for the important work they do. Can the Government ensure that the use of zero-hours contracts among employers of care workers comes to an end? Let us consider those children and adults living with the effects of abuse. They may carry the pain and trauma with them for the rest of their lives. Their GPs need to know where to refer them. For disabled people the availability of trauma-based therapies is even more limited than for other people. This is discriminatory. I end by asking that the abuse of vulnerable children and adults should be at the forefront of our minds—it is everyone’s business.
Public Service Pensions Bill
Baroness Hollins Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Hollins
My Lords, I support Amendments 19 and 20, which aim to ensure greater flexibility in the Bill with respect to pension age. Clause 9, as we have heard, links normal pension age for public sector pensions to the state pension age, with the notable exception of firefighters, police and the Armed Forces. There is a strong case for other sections of the workforce being kept under review, as proposed in these amendments. In the NHS, a review is already under way—the working longer review—of the planned increase in the normal pension age for staff in the NHS pension scheme to 68. It is being undertaken jointly by the Government, employers and health unions.
The BMA, of which I am president, strongly believes that this review should be able to make genuinely evidence-based recommendations, which should cover any—and, if so, which—front-line NHS staff who have roles that are particularly physically, mentally and/or emotionally demanding and, therefore, should have their normal pension age capped at a lower age. The review was a key component of the scheme’s specific discussions between the Government and trade unions. However, these discussions appear to have been sidelined by Clause 9.
The principle is now established that not everyone should be linked to the state pension age. The list of occupations exempted from the Bill could lead to the curious situation whereby someone within those exempted occupations could have a less physically demanding role and would be protected, whereas someone who works in front-line clinical care—perhaps in the intensive care unit—is not protected because the NHS pension scheme is not included.
In a hospital setting, for example, there is pressure to deliver 24/7 care and it does not seem fair to protect one group completely on the basis of their occupational status, yet ignore the potential needs of another group. Many front-line NHS staff are engaged in very demanding work. I hope that the Bill can be amended to allow some flexibility. Amendment 19 would allow for further categories of workers to be exempt from the state pension age link if a scheme capability review found it appropriate. I hope that the Government will support it.
In the final report of the Independent Public Service Pensions Commission, recommendation 11 states that,
“the link between the State Pension Age and Normal Pension Age should be regularly reviewed, to make sure it is still appropriate”.
As written, the Bill does not seem to allow for that. Therefore, I hope that Amendment 20 also will be supported to make this explicit in the Bill.
Lord Newby
My Lords, as regards Amendment 18, we are aware of, and greatly respect, the hard work done by the police, firefighters and the Armed Forces. But the noble Lord, Lord Hutton, was clear that the normal pension age for these schemes should be equal to 60, subject to regular review. As we know, this fixed age is already significantly different from the position for all other public service workers. A pension age of 60 for police and firefighters is in line with the reforms implemented by the previous Administration. We are not, and nor should we be, in the business of reducing pension ages given the longevity challenges we face. To do so would go against all that the Bill is designed to achieve.
We already have made a commitment to review these provisions as and when future changes to the state pension age are announced. Those reviews will be separate from the state pension age reviews to ensure that the specific impacts on public service schemes are taken into account. The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, asked about where we would legislate for the DWP White Paper more generally. We will legislate separately for that. Obviously, it is not appropriate to do that in this Bill. It is a much wider issue and we will deal with the question of reviews in the context of the rest of the White Paper.
I firmly believe that the drafting of the Bill is correct on this issue and that the pension age provisions, including the link to state pension age for other schemes, are rightly the cornerstone of the legislation. It is also worth remembering that setting a normal pension age of 60 does not prevent people retiring before 60 if they wish. Early retirement factors can be taken within the scheme rules and added pension can be bought. Both of those allow for more flexibility over when people can access their pension. All three schemes captured by this amendment already allow people to take benefits from the age of 55 if they wish.
However, I will attempt to respond briefly to the points raised concerning the firefighters and the review by Dr Williams, about which the noble Lord spoke. I should start by making it clear that it is not the case that the review found evidence that a very large proportion of firefighters would not be fit enough to work to 60. The report finds that the average serving firefighter is already beyond the required fitness levels at the age of 35 to maintain operational fitness until the age of 60, if those individuals maintain their physical activity levels and BMI.
In our meeting, I discussed with the union that there is an argument for more structured and formal procedures to be in place to help people keep fit. People may spend time on physical activity but quite a lot of it might generously be called pretty informal. Getting a more formal and rigorous fitness regime in place, which would help individuals more generally as well as in their ability to work to the age of 60, falls outside the scope of the Bill and is something that the FBU no doubt will want to discuss further with its employers.
The report projects that in circumstances where people maintain their physical activity levels and BMI, individuals could maintain operational fitness in many cases until their mid-60s. We simply do not believe that it is necessary to make an amendment which enables a lower pension age than 60 for members of the firefighters’ scheme, or for the police and Armed Forces schemes.
The difference from Amendment 19 is that it would allow for exemptions to any of the normal pension age provisions currently set out, should a capability review make such a recommendation. We are not talking about just the police, firefighters and Armed Forces but all other public servants who will have their normal pension age linked to the state pension age.
I should briefly remind the House of the reason for the state pension age link in the first place. To get a grip on public finances, we were faced with a choice. We could either significantly reduce the value of scheme benefits or ask people to work slightly longer before they can receive their pension. We decided that the latter approach is best. Scheme benefits will be marginally less generous in the new schemes but only by a small amount. Instead, we are asking people to wait until their state pension age before becoming eligible for their pension. We think that this is preferable to significantly reducing benefits and increasing hard-working public servants’ reliance on means-tested benefits in their retirement.
We should remember what this state pension age link really means. For those retiring in the near future, it means waiting until the age of 66. When people talk about waiting until 67 or 68 and beyond, they are talking about several decades’ time from now. We are not talking about extending people’s working lives overnight. Instead, we have a lot of time to assess how best to adapt to extended longevity and how to ensure that employers provide the right working conditions to allow people to work up to the state pension age. That is why the NHS working longer review—to which the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, referred—is so important.
I think everyone recognises—I made this point in Committee—that it is not just in the public sector that there are a range of occupations which people cannot do as well at the age of 67 as they can at 27. It is a challenge across society to find methods of working which reflect that so that people can carry on working to a later retirement age without being faced with undue stress during their latter years. The review is looking not at the link with retirement age but at how best to deliver NHS services with a workforce who is living longer. I am sure that other workforces in the public sector will need to follow the lead of the NHS in looking at how they can achieve that.
What we should not do is seek to make exceptions to the state pension age link. As I have outlined, the link has very little effect in the short to medium term, but it is a crucial part of the solution to the long-term problem. While we should not dig our heads in the sand, there comes a time when it is best to accept the reality of the situation: people are living longer and the public service workforce must and will adapt to that. The previous Administration recognised that when they asked all public servants—barring those whom we have identified—to work to the age of 65. We are simply future-proofing that approach by tracking the state pension age as it moves beyond 65. If we do not face up to the challenge of increases in longevity now, we would only have to do so in the near future when there will be less resource available. For those reasons, I cannot support this amendment. The universal state pension link is absolutely vital to putting public service pensions on a fair and sustainable footing. I have complete confidence that, with the appropriate foresight and common sense from employers, it will be deliverable across all the relevant public service workforces.
Finally, Amendment 20 seeks to provide for an independent review of the pension age mechanisms in this Bill. I reiterate that the Government are totally committed to reviewing the pension age, as and when future changes to the state pension age are announced. This was one of the recommendations of the noble Lord, Lord Hutton, and we are sticking to it. I add that the House should be reassured that, when coming to decisions on any changes to the state pension age, Ministers will bear in mind the consequences for public servants. We would also expect member representatives to feed into this separate process. None the less, there are good reasons why this Bill does not provide for the review to the normal pension age provisions, which would follow any state pension age reviews that result in a change to the state pension age. For a start, public service pensions link to the state pension age, not vice versa, so given that work on the state pension age reviews is still in its early stages, and we do not know exactly how it will consider public service schemes, it would be premature to lock down details of the normal pension age provisions at this stage.
More importantly, we have not yet even developed those details—and that is sensible. We should not be determining the parameters for such reviews so far in advance, nor should we be trying to do so. It would be for the Government of the day to consider what is appropriate, beyond of course taking into account any changes in longevity. If that were to involve an independent assessment, so be it. However, again, it would be for the Government of the day to decide if that were appropriate. The Government may already have had all the independent advice that they require on longevity from the wider state pension age review, depending on the final details of that process. If, during the course of that review, there was no representation from the public sector that it wished to be treated any differently from anyone else, the scope of a review would be rather less than if there was a lot of independent evidence and representations being made from the public sector that it was in a different situation from the rest of the workforce—and not just a different situation, but a worse situation. Of course, nobody is going to argue that the public sector should have a differentially higher retirement age. While we could put a bland commitment into the Bill just to review the provisions from time to time, that would not be worth while without being able to include any details. It would carry very little weight and give no more assurance on this matter than the public statements that we have made on our intentions on a number of occasions. I therefore urge the noble Lords to withdraw their amendments.
Public Service Pensions Bill
Baroness Hollins Excerpts(11 years, 11 months ago)
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Baroness Hollins
My Lords, much concern has been expressed about the Bill’s granting of sweeping powers to the Government to make future further changes without adequate public or parliamentary scrutiny. Clause 3 grants extremely wide and retrospective powers to the Government for further radical public sector pension changes adversely affecting public sector employees’ pensions. This undermines the Government’s claim that this would be a “settlement for a generation”. It is generally accepted that public sector pensions represent an element of deferred public sector pay. Clause 3 is an extreme example of a Henry VIII clause. It is one that gives successive Governments the power to make unilateral and retrospective changes to accrued benefits in public sector pension schemes, changing the retirement age without effective parliamentary scrutiny.
This clause should be severely limited, in the view of the BMA, in which I should declare an interest as president, and other health unions. It has expressed concern about the wide scope of powers and has called for limits. The provision runs directly contrary to the Government’s pension guarantee for no more reform for at least 25 years, safeguarding the current generation of public sector workers, and that the Bill protects the benefits already earned by members of existing public sector pension schemes. Instead of protecting accrued rights and making a once-in-a-working-lifetime change to public service pensions, the Bill allows for those very rights to be undermined, throwing public sector workers into uncertainty surrounding their future financial security, even those who will shortly reach retirement age.
The powers granted to the Government in the Bill go beyond the stated purpose as set out in its Explanatory Notes, which is to make changes where legislation is inconsistent with, or requires modification as a consequence of, scheme regulations. Instead, and without justification, this clause allows the Government to make radical changes—for example, to reduce accrued final salary rights without the need for primary legislation and with minimal safeguards of the affirmative procedure, and to drastically change the design of pension schemes and scheme regulations—for instance, making different provisions for different cases or descriptions of persons without having to come back to Parliament to debate primary legislation. It would allow any person to exercise a discretion that was not defined in the Bill, and to breach the 25-year guarantee with no effective means of resisting any breach. The power to retrospectively amend means that accrued pension rights could be affected, which would likely result in a challenge under the Human Rights Act 1998 and may well lead to a declaration of incompatibility and other legal challenges.
During the debate on the Bill in another place, the Government stated that most changes affecting members’ rights would be minor and technical, but the Bill is not explicit in this regard. If the Government intend the changes to be minor and technical, then the Bill should say so to avoid this or any future Government having the power to undermine the 25-year guarantee.
Baroness Donaghy
My Lords, I know that the Minister thought that I overdid it a bit at Second Reading when I said that the confidence of public servants was shattered by two successive large sets of negotiations on their pensions. However, I think that this comes back to an issue of trust, and obviously everyone is going through the Bill line by line to see where that trust might be undermined in future.
I support everything that my noble friend Lord Whitty said. As currently drafted, the Bill would allow scheme regulations to make retrospective changes. I made it clear that in principle I did not disagree with that. However, the absolute crunch would be that scheme members or their representatives should agree to any retrospective change and the Government’s commitment that accrued rights up to the date when the scheme was changed would not be reduced. As has already been said, this would simply ensure that workers in public service pension schemes enjoyed the same protection in relation to their accrued pension rights as exist for workers in the private sector under pensions law.
I was concerned about the noble Lord’s reply on this issue at Second Reading. I understand that there is no set standard of protection across the current schemes, as he said. Apparently the Government have chosen not to carry across the protections in retrospectivity that can be seen in previous legislation, such as the Superannuation Act 1972. They are concerned that what the Minister referred to as the “most extreme” of these protections—member consent locks—is not the way forward. The Government say that they are trying to strike the right balance between the protection of members and the efficiency of the scheme, and no one can disagree with that. However, I cannot help thinking that this obsession with member consent locks is all about not getting unanimous agreement to the deal, and that is throwing out the baby with the bath water. What these very reasoned amendments do is codify the Minister’s precise intention. He said that he would take this issue back and further consider the provisions of the Bill, and I hope that he will give the reassurances that we are seeking.