Diego Garcia Military Base and British Indian Ocean Territory Bill

Debate between Baroness Hoey and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

Committee stage
Tuesday 18th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I have not given way; I have had enough of this. The noble Lord should probably write to me and explain his question, because we are clearly not getting very far with this. If the noble Baroness on the Back Bench wants to have a go and puts it in a different way, I would be very happy to try to answer.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

The Minister wants this in writing, but unless I am particularly stupid, I thought it was a very simple question.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The question was: how much is going to be from the ODA budget? I have answered that, and I do not know how to answer that any more clearly. As for how much comes from the FCDO and how much from the MoD, the Treasury will allocate us different amounts of money for different things. I do not quite understand why that makes a difference to the noble Lord—

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[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Okay, I will see whether we can get that. I do not know that that will be consistent over time, and I do not know whether the Treasury will want to be making that clear from now on. The MoD is deciding to buy itself some capability with this money. It is a significant investment, but it is not beyond the realms of what the MoD would spend on a capability such as this. That is my understanding. Exactly how much comes from each department will be published as we go along, because these things are published in the ordinary run of things.

The confusion in my mind comes from the interchangeable use of “ODA” and “FCDO”, and they are clearly different things. I look after the ODA budget, but the FCDO spends an awful lot more than just ODA. The MoD spends the ODA, too, as does DESNZ, the Department of Health, Defra and many other departments. Does this help noble Lords? Are we getting somewhere?

On Amendments 70, 74 and 75, all tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, I repeat that Parliament has already agreed the principles of the treaty and has not decided to vote against ratification. Any requirement for further approval from Parliament for the payments ignores the thorough and correct process that the treaty and Bill have already gone through and risks undermining the treaty, since non-payment by the UK is a ground for termination.

Regarding Amendment 74, I reassure noble Lords that there are no impacts on the cost of running the base from Article 10. This article pertains to the normal contractual arrangements, with any preference being to the maximum extent practicable and consistent with existing policies, requirements, laws and regulations.

Finally, regarding Amendment 75, I remind noble Lords that an annual payment to Mauritius is a fundamental part of the agreement, and this principle, and the amounts of those payments, were published in full on the day of treaty signature. I hope that in the light of this, the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

I asked the Minister a specific question about whether His Majesty’s Government knew about India and Mauritius. Did they know or not?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Of course we knew. My understanding is that this pre-dated negotiations and refers to something on the island of Mauritius itself. if I am wrong about that, I will correct the record and inform the noble Baroness.

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[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

Our Governments over the past 30 or 40 years refused to allow the Chagossians to go back. Why does the Minister think the Mauritian Government will ever allow them? What if they say, “Absolutely no”. Have we any say? Can we do anything?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is for the Mauritian Government to make that decision. I understand the noble Baroness’s scepticism, especially given our reluctance to undertake this. To serve citizens living in such a remote place with so few services is a considerable thing to do, which is why we are very careful and mindful of the warnings that we have heard about not wanting to give false hope or a false impression, or to make this sound straightforward. That guides us all in our discussions. It is, of course, an incredibly difficult prospect and very expensive. There is the trust fund. I do not know how that would operate and whether it would enable some of this to happen. This is for the Government of Mauritius to determine; we are completely clear about that. The noble Baroness might not wish that to be so, but I point out that the UK Government, for over 50 years, have made it absolutely clear that we would not facilitate return to the islands, for security and financial reasons.

On Amendment 72, it is important that negotiations between the UK and Mauritius on this matter—which I completely accept is sensitive—can take place in confidence. Publishing the records of confidential negotiations such as this would be damaging to trust in the UK keeping matters confidential in the future. That relates not just to our negotiations with Mauritius; it would obviously relate to the prospect of our negotiations with other states on other equally or more sensitive matters. With that, I ask the noble Lord to consider withdrawing his amendment.

Ukraine: Frozen Russian Assets

Debate between Baroness Hoey and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

Wednesday 26th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

That is such an important point. Often, when we talk about reconstruction, we are talking about airfields, roads and railway tracks. The cultural assets of a country that has been under such threat as Ukraine has experienced are so important in rebuilding that sense of identity—the Ukrainian sense of self and confidence—and in the message that that sends. We will do everything we can to support Ukraine in that, as we have said, in our 100-year partnership. On whether those assets can be used, the same argument applies that applies to any other form of reconstruction, and it must be done legally and correctly, in accordance with law.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, the Minister will know that there are millions of pounds of frozen Libyan assets in London, and that there has been a long campaign by victims of Libyan Semtex supplied to the IRA for compensation through that. Will she look again at this? Other countries have managed to get the compensation. Will she also please put into the public domain the Shawcross report, which we are all waiting to see and which looked into this whole issue?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The point about doing this legally applies equally in every situation. I will look into the question the noble Baroness raises about the Shawcross report, but I want to be completely clear that we are examining all legal routes available to us in order to get the money that should rightfully be spent on reconstructing Ukraine.

China: Human Rights and Sanctions

Debate between Baroness Hoey and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

Tuesday 29th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, did the Foreign Secretary raise the appalling treatment of Tibetans, particularly the sacrilege by which some of their wonderfully famous and sacred sites are being destroyed? If this was raised, does the Minister know the answer?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am frantically looking through the read-out of the exchange to see a reference to Tibet. I assure the noble Baroness that the Foreign Secretary raised a number of foreign policy and security matters, particularly issues around human rights. As she would expect, you do not get an instant result in these sorts of exchanges—diplomacy is about consistency and it takes time. But we are now in a period where we want a consistent, stable and pragmatic relationship. For 14 years, the relationship has blown hot and cold, and we have not had that stability and consistency. So that is the approach we will see from this Government.

Somaliland

Debate between Baroness Hoey and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

Thursday 10th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hoey]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what consideration they are giving to recognising Somaliland as an independent nation.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, the UK, alongside others in the international community, does not recognise Somaliland’s unilateral declaration of independence. The settlement of Somaliland’s status is an issue for Somalia, including Somaliland, to decide through a consultative process and dialogue.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer, but does she realise that since 1991 Somaliland has had six democratic elections, observes the rule of law, has religious tolerance and is a haven of piece in that awful area of the Horn of Africa? Why will His Majesty’s Government not recognise that we must support and encourage democracy around the world, particularly in Africa where we give money to some appalling regimes such as Zimbabwe? Surely this is a time for the Government to face up to the fact that, like other countries, such as France, we should recognise Somaliland now.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right in her strong support for Somaliland, but that does not change our position on the question of recognition of Somaliland as an independent state. She is right, and we have a very long-standing and deep relationship with Somaliland, not least because of the large number of Somalis living here in the UK, but also our support for the port there, for health, education, security and in many other ways. We are very pleased to continue that relationship.