European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 14th January 2020 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

11: Clause 13, page 17, line 12, at end insert—
“( ) No regulations may be made under this section after the end of the period of two years beginning with IP completion day.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment introduces a two-year sunset on the delegated powers relating to the coordination of social security systems, ensuring any subsequent changes must be enacted through primary legislation.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

Amendment 11 concerns a sunset clause and deals with one of the most crucial aspects of the Bill as it affects EU and UK citizens: the implementation of the guarantee that all their health, pension and benefit rights will continue after exit. It is true that there is a fixed cohort of citizens, perhaps up to 5 million EU citizens here and UK citizens abroad, who will be covered by these provisions as at the end of December. However, some of the rules and regulations will have a very long tail, affecting the access those 5 million people and their dependents will have to a range of payments and services long into the future. Ministers may well say, “It’s a fixed cohort, but these rights, and therefore the regulations affecting them, will go on a long time; that’s why we need the powers to continue to make tweaks and adapt to changing circumstances”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bethell]

My noble friend puts it well; I am not trying to brush off hundreds of thousands. I am trying to communicate a sense of this long tail of microregulatory changes, which are technically incredibly important. However, the priority is to demonstrate commitment and security to those millions of people today who will look to the Government to make a commitment to deliver those in years to come. To put an expiration date on the power could therefore inadvertently prevent the UK ensuring that its statute book complies with its international obligations under the agreements, and put in jeopardy the Government’s unequivocal guarantee to protect citizens’ rights. I therefore urge the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, to withdraw this amendment.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, to the Bill; I assume that this is only the first of his outings on it. I thank my noble friend Lord Howarth, the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham. I urge the Government to listen to what they say.

Perhaps the Government are saying that there will be so many small technical changes—but we would need to know that. If there was a sunset clause—possibly for longer than two years, as the noble Viscount suggested —we could see whether we are talking about lots of changes, but the Minister has not answered the question of why this cannot be dealt with more properly in a detailed statutory scheme where we will have a greater handle, or a greater grip, on these sorts of amendments.

I am concerned about what is referred to as “complex” or “technical” or a “tweak”. Over the past 10 or 15 years, we have seen pension regulations change: as we brought in civil partnerships, the right to a pension or the age of dependants also changed. These are big issues. These are not small tweaks where you report to this pension authority rather than that one. As has been said, some big issues could be addressed here without giving people outside this House enough time to comment on them. Remember, we are talking about people in Spain and Luxembourg, for example; by the time they hear that a statutory instrument is coming, it will probably have been passed. We are talking about a group of people who are very disparate and yet could be seriously affected by what is said to be a tweak.

I am still slightly concerned that, by enabling this to be there for all time, changes may be made to people’s death benefits, pensions or health provision, for example, without a proper discussion here. It would be a good idea, after I withdraw the amendment, for the Government to look closely at our Select Committee’s recommendation on whether there is a better method of achieving what the Government want to achieve, perhaps through moving an amendment to put in a sunset clause. Perhaps it could be for five years; in that time, we really would be able to see whether it is working as envisaged. Just having an open-ended commitment for all time on issues that will possibly affect people’s pensions or benefit payments seems to be a wide-ranging Henry VIII power.

[Viscount Hailsham]

Might I make a suggestion to the Government through the noble Baroness? One way would be having an extended sunset clause—for five years, for example—with a power to extend it further through an affirmative resolution procedure if, as the noble Baroness suggested, it appears to be working all right.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

I think that what we are urging is: can we look at this and can we not get hung up on “We don’t want any amendments to this Bill”? If it were a government amendment, it could get nodded through and we could pretend that it had not happened, if the Government want a clean Bill—we will not even tell anybody, just send the tweak through. But it is important to get this right rather than worry about one’s amour propre. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 11 withdrawn.

Brexit: The Customs Challenge (European Union Committee Report)

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Monday 1st April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for not being polemical, but being very precise in helping us with our arguments. It also gives me a chance to share with the House my favourite moment of the march last Saturday, which was more than 1 million strong as far as I could see—certainly if you counted the people who were not able to get on to the march without wandering around and making London their home for the day. There were many placards, many of them very witty and erudite, some rather clever, and some a bit rude and certainly not to be repeated in polite company. My favourite, because I am sure that we all have one, was one I saw just about half way round. Of course, stupidly, I managed to drop my camera and could not pick it up in time to take a picture of it to give it to the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. It said very simply, in bold Times font: “I concur with John Kerr”.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

He was holding it!

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I hear calls that it was he himself; it was not. I actually have no idea what it means, but it says quite a lot about the debate. I thought it was rather good.

This has been a useful and helpful debate on a report that probably had its peak impact a few months ago, but is nevertheless important. I want to explain why as we go through it.

Today we have been reminded of what was in that report and heard speeches from four of the committee members. These helped to explain why it was such a good report. They all said that it was a well-run and well-organised series of sessions with good evidence. Out of that, a fine report, crafted by the staff but signed on by the committee, was done.

We have also attracted an equal number of external Members who have contributed to the debate. That is always to the good and does not always happens in these debates on committee reports. Our committee system is one of the strengths of your Lordships’ House. It is a source of tremendous information, evidence and good and important things that we need to consider. It is therefore very sad that the Government have not honoured it here with a response. That is disrespectful to the committee itself, to the House and to the country. I hope that when the Minister comes to respond, he will have a satisfactory explanation as to why we have been let down in this way. Unless the Government are prepared to support the committee system by providing timely responses to its work, we will lose the quality which we currently have.

The debate today has ranged far and wide, because I think we all share a worry about how to respond to a report that was of its time and is perhaps no longer quite so on the debate. With events happening only a few yards away in another place, it is difficult to be precise and draw conclusions from this report in relation to what we might hear later and which is probably pinging out on the news channels as we speak. However, the evidence that was presented to the committee from those who wrote in to submit it, as well as those who attended, provided a very interesting narrative about the situation described in the report. We would be foolish not to learn lessons from that for any scenario going forward. There has been a tendency in some speeches to use the committee report for a wider debate, but I will try to restrict my comments to the report itself, and hope that the Minister will respond in kind when he comes to reply to the debate as a whole.

The first section is about what happens if the UK fails to secure a deal with the EU. This is still relevant, and therefore it is quite important to understand what the committee was saying. It would be interesting to get a response from the Government to the recommendation in paragraph 86, regarding the administrative burdens that businesses involved in trade will have. Have the Government made any assessment of that and, if so, where might we find consideration of it? There will be considerable extra work for anybody involved in trade, whether or not it is on WTO terms. These burdens need to be assessed.

In paragraph 88, there is a familiar point for the Minister, who I think has had to answer this question on a number of occasions. I am sure he is well briefed on this occasion. Of 145,000 VAT-registered UK businesses trading only with the EU, and 100,000 businesses under the VAT threshold who may be trading—we do not know that—how many have now registered on this magical form which will give them all the answers they want? I think the last number was just 52,000. I am sure that it has gone up, and that he will be able to update us. This is important.

In paragraph 90, the report records that HMRC has estimated that the cost to UK businesses under no deal would be about £18 billion per year. I would be grateful if the Minister could respond to the point made in the report that HMRC could provide an itemised breakdown of those figures. The committee was keen to see it but were unable to get it. It would be helpful if we had that read into the record. If it is not possible to provide it today, perhaps he could write to those who have spoken in this debate.

In paragraph 92, there is a question about technological solutions. This comes up a number of times in the report, here with reference to the Northern Ireland border, where trade under any sort of rules requires, or at least might imply, the reintroduction of a hard border. At the time the committee was meeting, technological solutions were being prepared. Could the Minister update us? Is it still the Government’s assertion that in the event of no deal a technological solution is available to help with that problem? In relation to the points made on paragraph 93 by a number of members of the committee—including the chair—about the impact of checks at ports, particularly the Port of Dover, we all understand that there has clearly been further work on that, including various trial runs. Again, it would be helpful if the Minister could support that.

The main issue in this part of the report was a bit difficult for the committee to get into because it did not know what the tariff regime would be. Many of us in this House have been asking for a number of weeks and months for such detail; it is now available and has been published. I cannot remember the total number of pages but it is very large and there are 4,000 lines of tariff information, which have to be read and understood if one is to get to its basis. Luckily, most of the tariffs are zero so it is a relatively straightforward issue but the reason that they are zero is sometimes elusive. I am sure that the Minister will want to respond to that.

The best comment I have seen on that issue is from the UK Trade Policy Observatory at Sussex University. That organisation has done a number of pieces of work on the customs impacts that are likely to arise from deal or no deal. Its conclusion on the tariffs—I will not quote it but put it in general terms—was that even these tariff arrangements, which I think most commentators have broadly welcomed, will result in a negative impact on the UK economy. Although there are some positives in having a more liberal policy with regards to tariffs, there will still be additional costs, competitive pressures on firms and difficulties. The results also highlight that the policy means that with zero as the main tariff line, even though there are exceptions for certain goods which are protected, the scope for using those tariff lines for any future negotiation in any trade is very limited.

One wonders why we go on and on about how tariffs in relation to goods are going to be so important to any future negotiations when it is quite clear that, when all tariffs are at zero or close to it, you have no room for negotiation as far as goods are concerned. That has always been the case in the UK’s economy; the issue is about non-tariff regulations in services, about which the Government are still very quiet. No doubt this agenda item might be recommended to the chair of the committee as something that it might want to look at in its next workload.

Having dealt with that I can move on to mitigations, where there is only one issue which I wanted to ask the Minister to respond on. It is to make sure that, as in paragraph 120, there is some sense of what the Government’s plan will be,

“to ensure fair and equal treatment of all imported goods coming in on most-favoured nation terms”.

If he is able to respond on that, it would be helpful.

On the third and final part of the report, which is the broader discussion about the facilitated customs arrangement, two points need to be answered. First, when Ministers were giving evidence to the committee, the information from the Government was predicated largely on the role that was to be played by authorised economic operators. I think that scheme is not yet fully developed so I would be grateful if the Minister could give us a bit of an update on where it has got to, in particular whether there is any chance that special arrangements will be made for SMEs. It is argued in the report that SMEs will have difficulty accessing that scheme. Clearly, if they are to be successful—they may well be the way forward—AEO schemes will need a lot more support from government. Where is that going to come from?

Secondly, in paragraph 189 there is a very important question about the rules of origin, which perhaps do not get as much discussion as they need in the customs debate. In that paragraph there is the suggestion that the Government should elaborate on their intended definitions for the “sufficient transformation” of intermediate goods. Again, I would be grateful if the Minister could help us on that.

It is clear that the majority view in the debate today, at least for those who have participated in it and possibly in the House, is that we should be staying in the EU. I do not dissemble from that but it is not an option that this House will be able to exercise much influence on, given that the responsibility must lie with the elected House. For instance, the noble Lord, Lord Horam, and others made the point that even if we are leaving the EU we should stay in a customs union because of the need to maintain frictionless trade, because of the way that it solves the Irish problem, because of rules of origin difficulties and because, as he put it, we actually benefit from the ability to secure deals with other nations based on being within a market of over 500 million people, compared to that of our own.

These are all crucial points, and I end with one thought to which I invite the Minister to respond. As was said by the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, and others, the ambition of the Government in their deal is to have a free trade agreement with the EU that is sans pareil. It is the best, most inclusive and intensive deal, so much so that it would appear able in many ways to be judged by the WTO as a customs union. If that is the case, why is it not possible for the Government to accept that that is where we need to be? A customs union and the ability to be part of the single market are what industry wants and what the trade unions have argued for. It is clear to just about everybody in the country now that that is what we want. There is little point in trying to argue whether there is a difference between a fully-fledged FTA plus engagement with the single market and staying in the EU, but if we are moving out that must be the way forward. Perhaps the Minister could respond.

EU Travel: Insurance

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Thursday 1st November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

That is what we set out in the future relationship White Paper, where we say:

“The Government wants UK and EU nationals to continue to be able to use the European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) to receive healthcare”.


My noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy has been party to publishing the Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill to allow that to happen. We have also stated that we want to continue to have the same access for air flights and that we will grant permission for European airlines to travel to us. We would like to see that reciprocated. We would like to see reciprocated the passporting arrangements that we have offered and the temporary permissions regime. In all these things the UK Government have shown good faith in ensuring that all these arrangements are in place, and we now look forward to our European friends doing likewise.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister said health insurance would remain valid. However, without the EHIC, people with pre-existing conditions may not be covered and then suddenly after 29 March those insurance premiums may not be valid. Maybe he could just check and clarify that, because without the EHIC a lot of other insurances do not cover existing conditions.

[Lord Bates]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right. That is one reason why we always advise people to take out comprehensive travel insurance, even when travelling within the EU, because the EHIC covers only the basic element. We have been very clear that that is what we want, that is what we propose to legislate to allow to continue and that is what we expect, but we urge everyone to check with their insurer what cover is provided.

Police Forces: Financial Stability

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Wednesday 12th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, there is a bit of a conflict. On the one hand, the NAO report is recognised and accepted but, on the other, the Home Secretary immediately says that he does not recognise the picture that it paints. But the NAO says, on its good evidence, that the Home Office,

“lacks a long-term plan for policing”,

and,

“does not know if the police system is financially sustainable”,

and does not understand the pressures on our police forces. I accept what the NAO says more than what the Home Secretary does. Will the Minister confirm that police funding has fallen by 19% in real terms since 2010-11? Will she accept that forces are finding it harder and harder to deliver an effective service?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

To address the last question first, both the Policing Minister and the Home Secretary recognise the demands on the police. They have said it before and my right honourable friend the Policing Minister said it again today. Not only is the picture of crime changing, but the police have had to deal—so bravely—with the various terrorist attacks we have had over the past year. When it comes to understanding demand, I have said before that my right honourable friend the Policing Minister visited all 43 forces in England and Wales leading up to the comprehensive settlement for 2018-19, which provided that £460 million increase. Looking forward to the next spending review, he stated in December last year that he would revisit plans to change the funding formula at the time of the next spending review. I have outlined the 2018 settlement, but in 2019-20 he will seek to maintain the protection of the broadly flat police grant, alongside the same flexibility of the precept that happened this year.

Brexit: European Union Police Databases and Extradition Arrangements

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Wednesday 20th June 2018 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of Michel Barnier’s remarks at the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights on 19 June, and in view of those remarks, how they intend to secure continued access to EU police databases and extradition arrangements.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, we note Mr Barnier’s comments, but we must bear in mind that this negotiation is only just beginning. We want to ensure that citizens across Europe benefit from the strongest possible security relationship between the UK and the EU after our exit, and to avoid a security gap. Our objective in negotiations will be to secure this outcome. In our view, this can be most effectively delivered through a comprehensive new internal security treaty.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, this and other matters are serious. The Government’s red lines, such as ruling out the Charter of Fundamental Rights and the CJEU, will, as Mr Barnier says, at the moment deny us access to EU databases and things such as the European arrest warrant, the security pact, which the Prime Minister has discussed, and recognition of court judgments. Given the serious nature of this and all the other issues of the negotiations, which have never been in front of this House, does the Minister agree that we should have a proper debate here on how the negotiations are going and the Government’s objectives? The debate could be on the White Paper, if it arrives on time at the beginning of July. If it is further delayed, we should nevertheless have a debate here on this range of really important issues.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I have on many occasions had debates on certain elements of the issues that the noble Baroness raises. I commend your Lordships’ House for the quality of our debates on such matters. I am sure that the usual channels will, as they are wont to do, make time for such a debate. The issues that she raises are political choices. None of them are insurmountable as a legal barrier. We are not in Schengen now. We operated the EAW without CJEU jurisdiction up to 2014. The charter creates no new rights. EU citizenship matters only for those with constitutional barriers and we are already close to a solution on that in the withdrawal agreement, but I fully support her request for a debate.

Women: Rights

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Tuesday 4th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the changes in the rights of women since Emily Davison’s fatal injury at Epsom on 4 June 1913.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I pay tribute to Emily Davison for her extraordinary commitment to women’s rights. Over the past 100 years there has been major progress in securing the rights of women. However, we are acutely aware that there is still much we need to achieve, both in the United Kingdom and internationally.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, it was indeed 100 years ago today that Emily Davison sought to pin the votes-for-women colours on the King’s horse and died for her pains. I thank the Minister for paying tribute to the sacrifice she made and ask her similarly to honour those who have fought for our rights. Does she agree that, as she has hinted, sadly there is still a very long way to go before women achieve their true place in public life on the boards of private companies, in the earnings league, and in representation in general? Will she outline the government plans to make Emily Davison’s aspirations a reality?

[Baroness Northover]

Thinking about this Question, it seemed to me that Emily Davison would not be totally satisfied by any means, but that she would be very pleased at certain things that have happened. That a female Member of the House of Lords is asking this Question to a female member of the ministerial team is a case in point. The fact that the noble Baroness and I have both been able to vote throughout our adult lives; the fact that both of us were admitted to degrees in our universities; the fact that both of us were able to secure PhDs and have careers are all tributes to Emily Davison and the suffragettes. However, I recognise that there is still much more that we need to do.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Tuesday 7th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Carlile of Berriew]

My Lords, I, too, support the amendment, which was moved so ably by the noble Baroness, who has done a great deal of work in bringing it to the attention of your Lordships. I shall make four points briefly.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said that this is an epidemic affecting the nation. She is of course right, but it is not a new epidemic. It is absolutely shameful that this epidemic has been affecting the nation to a greater and greater extent for, perhaps, the past 150 years. My noble friend Lord McNally got into a little difficulty earlier when he mentioned Dickens to the Committee, and probably rather wished that he had not. I think I will not be controverted if I say that Dickens describes the effect of drink on young and, in many cases, very poor people in London very graphically in a way which has developed over the years. It is absolutely shameful that this epidemic has been allowed to continue for so long and it is about time that we did something about it. This proposal promises a great deal.

My second point is about the experience of the courts. The Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Mr Hogan-Howe, who supports the amendment at least in principle, came to London after a gap following a period when he was the chief constable of Merseyside. On every Monday morning—I do not wish to be Liverpoolist about this; I am merely using a city I love as an example—in the magistrates’ court in Dale Street, there is a procession of young men and some young women who have been in custody over the weekend because of mostly, but not always, relatively low-level offences committed because of uncontrolled drinking. Bridewells such as the Liverpool Bridewell on a Friday and Saturday night are a sad piece of evidence as to the effects of drink taken to excess by young people.

I do not want to sound sanctimonious about this. Teaching people responsible drinking is a very good idea. We want families to teach their children responsible drinking, which you will have seen in fairly large measure after Wales’s victory over Ireland at the last gasp of the match last weekend—I knew that that would provoke my noble friend Lord Thomas from his slumber in front of me.

My point is that in every magistrates’ court and every Crown Court—this goes to serious levels of offending —although we tend to talk a great deal about the effect of drugs, believe me, the effect of drink is ubiquitous. Any of us who has practised or has sat in those courts knows that it attracts every kind of crime and affects every class in society and every age group, but particularly the young.

Thirdly, I mention legal aid. We have spent a lot of time in this Committee trying to find ways to save money without removing legal aid. If there is one sure way to save money on legal aid, it is by reducing the incidence of serious crime by the introduction of this kind of measure. I confess my interest as president of the Howard League and feel that I can put my hand on what passes for my heart and say to my noble friends on the Front Bench: if there is one guaranteed way of saving a great deal of money on legal aid in the very serious and middling sectors of crime, it is by adopting this kind of measure.

My fourth point is about the revolving door of imprisonment. In one connection we heard earlier from the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, about 3,000 people who found themselves in prison because they were in breach of an order made in respect of a non-imprisonable offence. That is just one example of a huge cohort of people who find themselves in prison for breaking the law, although not terribly badly, relatively speaking. There is no cause of that door revolving at high speed greater than the misuse of alcohol. I believe that it would be completely irresponsible if we were not to seize this opportunity provided by the noble Baroness and have some serious pilot projects of the kind described in the amendment. I respectfully suggest to my noble friend on the Front Bench that in fact Liverpool would be a very good place to have a pilot because it has the community court, which was introduced by the previous Government. It is working extremely well and has won plaudits all around the world. In partnership with the community court, this kind of system could offer something towards reducing crime.

There is an analogy here. Drug treatment and testing orders—DTTOs—administered by judges, have been extremely effective in reducing drug-taking at a relatively low level. I have spoken to a number of circuit judges who have had to administer these orders and to a man and woman they believe that this kind of measure, which seeks to reduce the level of substance misuse gradually, works really well, mainly because it ceases to be authoritarian and engages the partnership of the person concerned. It works because most people who commit violent offences when they are, for example, under the influence of drink regret it afterwards and do not want to appear before a court in the future.

On those grounds, I support the amendment as strongly as I can and I hope that we will hear a positive response from the Front Bench.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, I start by giving the apologies of my noble friend Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe, whose name appears on the amendment. Unfortunately, he had to leave for another engagement.

I very strongly support the initiative set out by the noble Baroness. As has been said by others, it is a real recognition of the role that alcohol plays in crime, especially in domestic violence. The link between alcohol and domestic abuse is well known, as is the link between alcohol and cases of child protection. Alcohol Concern has demonstrated how often the criminal behaviour is repeated if the alcohol abuse is not tackled. As more than one of its clients has said, “He only hits me when he’s been drinking”. But as the alcohol support worker would reply, “If you knew you were going to hit the person you most loved once you were drunk, do you think you’d have that first drink?”.

The fact that so many men continue to take that first drink shows how valuable an intervention aimed at offenders could be. The sobriety scheme could play a role in this. I do not think that it is enough on its own, as I think that there needs to be some alcohol referral work to go alongside it. People who fail to tackle their misuse themselves are likely to need some assistance to work in parallel with breath-testing. That may involve some fairly brief intervention by experienced staff, and I believe that this scheme, working in parallel with the provision of such help, could make a real difference. The running of a pilot scheme, as suggested, is just the way to see whether this would work and whether, together with some brief interventions, it could help to deal with people who have a drink problem but who, by themselves, simply cannot get it under control. It could make a difference to the continued problem drinking of those who have broken the law.

I am no longer a magistrate, unlike my noble friend, but when I was a magistrate I would have loved the possibility of a rehabilitation order to monitor alcohol consumption. I believe that we should place victims centre-stage when we assess these amendments. Not only is most domestic abuse—that is the phrase used, although we used to call it “wife battering”—alcohol-fuelled but so, as we have already heard, is violence on the streets and against property, and there would be considerably less of that without the addition of drunkenness. When are we going to take action, as this House could do tonight, and do what ordinary, decent people want, which is to reduce the alcohol-related disruption to their lives?

This is an enabling measure. It does not require courts to impose it. It is an opportunity for someone with a propensity to misuse alcohol in a way that damages others, not themselves, to have a period of sobriety with, it is hoped, help, thus improving their family life as well as the well-being of others. The amendment would allow a magistrate to do this only if alcohol caused or contributed to the offence and the offender had a propensity to misuse alcohol and was willing to comply with the requirement.

My noble friend Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe was very anxious to make the point that a sunset clause could be added to a provision for such pilots so that, if they had not taken place after a year, the provision would not be needed on the statute book. Might that help the Government to accept the proposal? I very much hope that they will grasp with both hands this excellent idea of a pilot.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I must admit that when I started to listen to this short and interesting debate, I was somewhat puzzled by it and I certainly did not think that this proposal had much of a part to play. However, the more I listened, the more interested I became. Having heard the very good speeches of my noble friend Lady Finlay and the noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin, setting out the support that exists, and indeed the practical support from the mayor, I am now convinced that this is a possible area for action. However, I have a question. When an assessment of alcohol consumption was made, could a test also be carried out to see whether drugs were involved and, if they were, could drugs also come under the treatment required? We all know that, alas, the consumption of drugs, as with alcohol, is rife. Equally, I totally accept that the amount of alcohol consumed by the young today is huge compared with what young people drank in the past. I am talking about quantities, because one sees how much is drunk by the younger generations. Having heard the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, I also agree that it might be a good idea to have a sunset clause. Somewhat to my surprise, I am quite attracted to this idea and I shall be very interested to hear what the Government have to say.

Public Bodies: Reform

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Thursday 14th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank my noble friend for his comments. Widespread concern has been expressed in the press about the Equality and Human Rights Commission and its role. We are proposing to retain it, precisely because we believe that a regulator is needed to help to enforce the laws governing equality and anti-discrimination. But we believe that the EHRC’s remit is too wide and that it has not always been well managed. That is why we are proposing substantially to reform it.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

I declare an interest as the chair of the Legal Services Consumer Panel. We had no advance notice of this; there was an e-mail at 9.36 this morning to one of my staff—not to me—alerting us, not in the published list but in the question and answers that Ministers were given as their brief, that the Government were minded to merge the panel in with Citizens Advice. Is that the normal courtesy that you would have for an organisation that you wish to merge?

On the issue itself, the Legal Services Consumer Panel was set up with the complete support of this House as part of the Legal Services Act. It is, of course, funded by lawyers—and I thank the many lawyers here for the funding. It is accountable to the users of legal services and is wholly different from Citizens Advice. It advises the regulator on behalf of the users of legal services on how best to regulate, which is an utterly different role from that of Citizens Advice. Was there any logical thinking in putting this measure not in the published list but in the attachment, then not telling us, as well as the unusual history with Citizens Advice?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I think I can explain. As the noble Baroness said, the Government are minded but have not made a decision. There is no doubt that she will have plenty of opportunity to consult the Government and the body will be able to discuss the matter with the Government. So there is no specific proposal, but the Government are minded to merge.

Women in Society

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Wednesday 21st July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, it is a privilege but also a personal pleasure to be able to follow my noble friend Lord Kennedy of Southwark. It was not simply because he made such a sensitive and thoughtful speech, nor simply because it is so good to hear from a man on something that I know the women in this House already believe, nor even because he has a long and distinguished record in championing diversity in all its forms—indeed, in the years before it was a more popular cause. It was also a pleasure because, even before I could call him “my noble friend”, I could call him “my friend”. I have witnessed him woo, fall in love with and marry the wonderful Alicia. In June, I saw him fulfil a prediction that he made to his mother when he was eight—this Irish boy from Southwark—that one day he would be in the Lords. His mother used to work in the tea room in the other place but was here last month to witness that prediction come true.

I have had the pleasure and the privilege of working with my noble friend for many a year, in times of triumph and in times of real difficulty. In all these, I have found him to be true to his values and his beliefs, consistent, hard-working and always enormous fun, especially in times of adversity. My noble friend has been a highly successful councillor and deputy leader, but he has also been a rather less successful European parliamentary candidate. However, the European Parliament’s loss has been our gain. What your Lordships have seen today is pure Kennedy: straight, clear thinking and with his heart always in the right place. He is a great asset to the Chamber. Following his words will be difficult for me, but I know that he will now wish me well in his usual spirit of kindness and generosity.

Like other speakers, I welcome enormously this debate and the sentiments expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, in opening it. Indeed, it is hard to argue with a single word of her good intentions expressed in that speech. I choose my words carefully: I say “indeed”, for it is in deeds that we will judge the Government. Her own record speaks for itself; it is her friends whom I worry about.

There are just four, not 14, women in the Cabinet. Margaret Bondfield, for Labour, was the first ever woman to sit in the Cabinet. That was back in 1929. I have to confess from this side of the House that I am slightly ashamed that only 23 women have ever sat in a Labour Cabinet. We are soon to hear a maiden speech from one of those 23, to which we look forward. While 23 is a very low number, Labour has been in government for rather fewer years than the Conservative Party, so we might look at its record. The number of Conservative women who have sat in the Cabinet is nine. A school report would say, “Must do better”. The issue is not to want to change nor to wait for change, but to work for change. We must will the end and not just want it.

If we look elsewhere, we see that the Government are sadly lacking in their will to make this happen. For the review of health and safety, the Government choose a man. For the review of the school building programme—and women know something about schools—they choose five men. To chair the review of higher education funding and student finance, they get a man. Yet it is government that must take a lead, because, left to themselves, the others will not do it. The universities have managed to get only 14 per cent of their vice-chancellors to be women. Perhaps that is the answer to the noble Lord who asked earlier why universities had not made available physics for women to make up for the year when they had not been able to do it. I am afraid that the legal profession is not much better. Sixty per cent of new recruits to City firms are women, but less than a quarter are partners. We have already heard that only 20 per cent of MPs and one in three councillors, members of public bodies or senior civil servants are women.

It is not simply in appointments that the responsibility must lie with government. As my noble friend Lady Billingham has said elsewhere in relation to her beloved tennis and the lack of good tennis players, if you do not nurture them young, they will not hold aloft the Wimbledon trophy when mature. So it is with women in public life. Unless we enable women to study and flourish and to be supported by nurseries, flexible working—we welcome the commitment made today—and good care provision not simply for their children but also for elderly relatives, today’s generation of bright young things will not occupy high office when their time comes. But what do we see from the Government? Support for children is being cut by £2 billion. There are cuts in Sure Start, maternity grants, health in pregnancy grants, child benefit and tax credits. Who do we think will be harmed by those? It is no way to produce the leaders of the future.

Women are losing out on their chance to serve, but, as the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, said, society also is losing out on the chance of having women as decision-makers. We cannot just want change; we cannot just wait for change; we must work for it. I applaud the sentiments expressed across the House today, but I urge all who are in positions to be able to take decisions to ensure not only that women are represented on those important bodies but also that, when the next generation of women get to play their part, society can have the benefit of all their good counsel and advice.