Land Use Framework

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Tuesday 12th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

I pay tribute to the noble Lord and to the other members of his committee for their excellent report. He rightly points out that this is an iterative process; we are not going to do it just once to put it into a file where it will sit for ever as a rigid structure. I do not yet have the exact details as to how this process will be updated. I very much hope that this will form part of the final report when it comes from the Secretary of State shortly.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, the delay in the publication of the strategy is disappointing. Previously, the Minister has assured us that we would be seeing it “shortly”. It is interesting that “shortly” has now become “before the Summer Recess”. I thought I would look up the definition of “shortly” in the Cambridge dictionary; it is “soon”. The example given is:

“We will shortly be arriving in King’s Cross Station”.


Does the Minister agree that it is a jolly good job that he is not in charge of our railway services? Can he guarantee that we will see the strategy before the Summer Recess, or will we be seeing the use of “shortly” shortly?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

As a frequent user of the train service between here and Edinburgh, I appreciate that “shortly” can mean lots of different things. When the Secretary of State took up his position at the beginning of December, he wrote to the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, saying that that was a really important subject. It is crucial that the Secretary of State is completely happy with a report that will go out in his name. It is right that he takes the time to reflect on the report that was being formulated at the time, put his own stamp on it and make sure that he is entirely comfortable with it when it comes out, before the Summer Recess.

Environment Agency

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Thursday 7th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

The most reverend Primate makes a very good point about public access. The Government are committed to everybody being within a 15-minute walk of a green or blue space. On the water environment, the designations for our bathing sites have never been in better condition. Just last week, we consulted on creating 27 new water designation bathing sites.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I would like to ask the Minister about air quality. The European Environment Agency has estimated the number of attributable deaths that could be avoided if extra air quality measures were implemented. It has also attempted to quantify the health burden associated with specific diseases caused or exacerbated by air pollution. Does UK equivalence exist in this? For example, what work is our Environment Agency doing with international equivalents to share ideas and best practice on how to tackle public health?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises a really good point on air quality. It is the single biggest pollution problem that we have. Per the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2016, the Environment Agency regulates larger industrial installations, medium combustion plants and a range of other industrial areas. I am not aware specifically of the consultation we do with our European colleagues, but perhaps I can write to her on that in due course.

Packaging Waste (Data Reporting) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Tuesday 5th March 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for his clear introduction. Previous speakers have asked the questions I am particularly interested in, so I shall be brief. We support any measures aimed at promoting better use of our natural resources and increasing reuse and recycling. Establishing correct base data is fundamental to the success of the extended producer responsibility scheme for packaging, so we welcome this instrument.

We appreciate the reasons behind the instrument, which the Minister explained very clearly. However, I have a question about paragraph 10 of the Explanatory Memorandum, which deals with the consultation outcome. Paragraph 10.5 say that a third consultation on PEPR ran from July to October 2023. Paragraph 10.6 states that the response is being reviewed and that a summary is expected to be published in the spring of this year, which is only a few weeks away. Is it expected that anything in the outcome of that consultation might have been useful to have ahead of this legislation? It seems a bit odd that the Government did not finish the consultation before introducing this legislation. If there is something useful in it, are we likely to see a similar SI in the near future?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

I thank the noble Baronesses for their questions. I am not sure that I grasped the nub of my noble friend Lady McIntosh’s question. I wonder whether I might chat to her afterwards about it, or I can write to her, or both.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, asked when producers are going to get clarity concerning fees for the extended producer responsibility packaging scheme. Producer fee rates will be set and published by the scheme administrator. Rates for the 2025-26 financial year will not be known until spring 2025, once all the producer packaging data has been received and checked. In the meantime, to support producers we aim to publish illustrative fees as soon as possible.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, also asked about stakeholder concerns about EPR. We continue to listen to feedback from all stakeholders throughout the development and delivery of this policy. The 12-month deferral of producer fees from 2024-25 has given producers an additional year to prepare for them, while also giving us the opportunity to consult producers on the deliverability of the draft regulations. Some of the amendments to this SI are in direct response to the feedback we have received from the consultation.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, asked about the planned consultation. I think it would be best if I wrote to her on that. I am not aware of anything that is likely to come out of that which would require us to do another SI.

I hope I have covered most of the questions; if I have missed anything, I will write. I trust that noble Lords understand and accept the need for this instrument, which will make crucial changes to the Packaging Waste (Data Reporting) (England) Regulations 2023. These changes will ensure that drinks containers supplied in Scotland pick up an obligation in the same way that drinks containers supplied elsewhere do. The amendments will also widen the provisions that allow some primary and shipment packaging to become exempt from being defined as household packaging.

I thank noble Lords once again for their contributions and support today, and I commend these regulations to the Committee.

Waste Enforcement (Fixed Penalty Receipts) (Amendment) (England and Wales) Regulations 2023

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Tuesday 5th March 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his introduction of this statutory instrument. Waste enforcement is clearly an important issue, so I do not intend to make any throwaway comments. However, I have some questions for the Minister.

First, am I correct in thinking that this SI was laid, withdrawn and laid again? If so, was there a problem with it? Perhaps the Minister could clarify that I have not confused it with another SI.

In his introduction, the Minister referred to some of the key statistics in the Explanatory Memorandum. The figures from the Environmental Services Association’s research spell out the problem, and that it is increasing. The estimated annual national cost of fly-tipping was £209 million in 2015, and just three years later it had increased to £392 million. That is pretty appalling, so it is important that we have legislation that attempts to deal with the problem. Paragraph 7.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum gives the results of the recent survey, which again demonstrate that this is a really important and concerning topic to the public, of whom

“49% thought that fly-tipping was a problem”.

The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, made some excellent points about fly-tipping on private land, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, talked about farmers. I know from where I live in Cumbria, as I am sure the Minister does, the huge costs associated with sorting out this problem on farms, particularly for small farmers, who simply do not have the ability to shift it. This is becoming a real problem, so I hope the Minister heard what the noble Baronesses said and that, if this is not the appropriate instrument to deal with it, something else can be done to address it going forward.

We have also heard about the involvement of local authorities. There is a commitment to limit the use of FPN proceeds to expanding or improving councils’ enforcement functions and cleaning up the consequences of this anti-social behaviour. As the Minister said, this was set out in the Prime Minister’s anti-social behaviour action plan last March. Can the Minister say why it has taken a year to bring this forward? It should be straightforward.

According to paragraphs 7.3, 7.4 and 7.5 of the Explanatory Memorandum, the revenue from FPNs is generally spent on street-cleaning activity rather than enforcement. My understanding is that this SI will mean that more revenue is spent on prevention, which is very welcome, but how do the Government see councils plugging the gaps in their general street-cleansing budgets through this instrument? The Minister talked about the amount councils can charge being increased through this SI, but there is still a cap on fixed-penalty notices for fly-tipping, littering and graffiti. Will the Government consider removing the cap and explore whether more stringent court fines for the worst offenders could help councils investigate and prosecute fly-tippers and deter repeat offenders? We know that some people make a living out of doing this.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, gave the Committee an extremely good example. In our own communities, we have all heard about instances of people saying, “We’ll take that away for you”, taking a fee and then dumping it on someone else’s land. These repeat offenders need sorting out. The noble Baroness also talked about CCTV. CCTV is now being used in some areas of the Lake District National Park, because people are dumping rubbish even in some of the most beautiful areas of our national parks.

The enforcement actions include employing officers who are authorised to issue the fines. Have the Government any figures on the average number of officers employed by each local authority in England, in order to get an idea of the number of people currently involved? It would be interesting to know whether these are full-time posts or part of the officers’ wider responsibilities; if the latter, how does the ring-fencing work? If they have different responsibilities and this is just one of them, how is the ring-fencing guaranteed?

Paragraph 10.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum refers to the consultation that took place with local authorities, and states that there were no responses from the West Midlands, which seems a bit odd. Why did the West Midlands not take part?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all three noble Baronesses for their contributions to this debate. I will start with fly-tipping on private land, which they all raised. The Government appreciate the difficulty that fly-tipping poses to landowners. As was pointed out, it is indeed deeply unfair and places a huge and unreasonable burden on private landowners. The Government are working with a wide range of stakeholders, such as the NFU, through the National Fly-Tipping Prevention Group, to promote and disseminate good practice, including how to prevent fly-tipping on private land.

Furthermore, in April last year, the National Police Chiefs’ Council established a new National Rural Crime Unit to support police forces nationally in responding to rural crime, including fly-tipping. Defra has awarded the National Rural Crime Unit a grant of £100,000 to fund a dedicated 12-month post, which started last month on the Northumberland-County Durham border, to explore the police’s role in tackling fly-tipping and how this can be optimised, with a particular focus on rural areas. Outputs from this will include training for police officers and working on intelligence-sharing across borders and between authorities.

Defra is also funding councils across the country to directly intervene at fly-tipping hotspots, including in rural areas, through the fly-tipping intervention grant scheme. For example, in Herefordshire, councils have seen a reduction in fly-tipping of over 90% across areas where CCTV—another issue raised by noble Baronesses —and signage have been installed, and they have developed stronger relationships with local farmers and landowners. If any noble Baroness has further specific questions on that issue, I will write to them.

Pollution in Rivers and Regulation of Private Water Companies

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Thursday 29th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, for bringing this debate forward today and for her excellent, thorough introduction to this issue. As she said, we have had this discussion a number of times over the past 12 months or so.

Noble Lords have mentioned the data from the Environment Agency showing that only 14% of our rivers in England have a good ecological status, with no rivers in England having a good chemical status. The House of Commons Environmental Audit Committee said this in its 2022 report, Water Quality in Rivers:

“Getting a complete overview of the health of our rivers and the pollution affecting them is hampered by outdated, underfunded and inadequate monitoring regimes”.


Monitoring has been mentioned a number of times by noble Lords. The report also suggested that the current range of pollutants being monitored is “too narrow”, focusing on nutrients such as nitrogen, phosphorus and ammonia but not routinely monitoring other substances that contribute to poor water quality, such as metals, pesticides, pharmaceuticals, industrial chemicals and plastics. Will the Government consider monitoring those other substances?

I thank the Rivers Trust for its excellent recent report, to which other noble Lords have referred. The noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, hosted a meeting at which we spoke to the trust. It is an incredibly important report; I hope that the Minister will take account of what it says. It draws attention to the fact that, as noble Lords have said, sewage and urban pollution, agricultural pollution, industrial pollution and chemical pollution are all contributing to this problem. According to Defra, agriculture is the main cause of river pollution incidents in England with intensive livestock farming being the major reason for the complete collapse of the River Wye, as we have often heard about in this House. Untreated waste from chicken, pig and dairy units is routinely spread on land, adding to the problem. Such has been the growth in the intensive livestock industry in recent years that soils across England are receiving significantly more nitrogen and phosphate than they can cope with and absorb; that excess is contaminating our rivers and having an impact on our wildlife.

Looking at the River Wye, it is so concerning that the group River Action has brought a judicial review saying that a loophole in the law is allowing poultry waste from 25 million chickens intensively farmed in the catchment to poison the river, and that the Environment Agency and the UK Government have failed to protect it from catastrophic decline. We all await the outcome of that judicial review with great interest. In his speech to the recent NFU conference, Alan Lovell, chair of the Environment Agency, said that pollution from agriculture and rural land is “roughly equal” to that coming from the water industry. Farmers, who need to play a really important role if this is to be resolved, say that they need help with both expertise and financial support. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, in particular, talked about the help that farmers will need if they are to tackle this.

The outgoing president of the NFU, Minette Batters, has said that farmers need better access to funding through the environmental land management scheme, which the noble Duke mentioned, in order that they can create buffer strips along waterways. They also need much faster planning permission for slurry storage and incentives to grow the right crops in the right places. Will the Minister look at ELMS in light of these comments? Our transition out of the EU common agricultural policy into ELMS has been pretty challenging for farmers, with too much uncertainty. This has also added problems.

The complicated current system has made it difficult; it is not easy for farm businesses and land managers, who can feel lost in the system. It has also been harder for them to make long-term strategic plans. We need to look at cross-sector regulation; we cannot just regulate the water companies or the farmers. We need a fair and transparent system in which everybody understands what is happening and what role they have to play in reducing the pollution going into our rivers. We are still waiting to see the promised land use framework, to help balance all the demands on our land, and that includes land use to help with water quality and biodiversity targets. Does the Minister have any update, or is it still going to be published “shortly”?

Chemicals, of course, cause a lot of the problems around pollution in rivers; they can come from cleaning products, medicines and even the food we eat. Using chemicals clearly has a number of benefits, but we know they can cause some really appalling damage when they leak into the environment. We also know that they can persevere in the environment for weeks, months or even years, causing significant harm to wildlife, particularly in fresh water and the sea.

A number of noble Lords mentioned the Rivers Trust report. I pick out of it the work the Rivers Trust has done in collaboration with the Wildlife and Countryside Link chemicals task force. They have recently analysed Environment Agency data on levels of just one of the many toxic for ever chemicals: perfluorooctanesulfonic acid, or PFOS. They looked at that within English fresh water fish, and their work revealed that the PFOS levels in English fresh water fish are on average 300 times higher than the levels considered safe by the European Union. Is the Minister aware of that? If not, this really needs to be picked up.

We have also heard that much pollution comes from urban environments, such as the amount of plastic that we throw away—you only have to look at your local river to see how much plastic can end up in it. We know that plastics break down into toxic chemicals and harmful microplastics, and then rivers become a major pathway for plastic reaching and polluting our coasts and oceans. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, talked about road run-off, which again is very problematic. You get oil, diesel and petrol spills, plus the particles from tyres and the roads wearing down, getting washed into our rivers and drains. This is a really important area that we need to deal with. We know that urban wetlands, reed beds and other nature-based solutions can help intercept this run-off and reduce the pollution, and it is really important that the Government properly invest in these mitigations. What investment are the Government making? Perhaps the Minister can give us a clue.

We have also heard an awful lot about the problems around regulation and enforcement. The poor quality of our regulation enforcement in recent times has compounded all the pollution that is coming from several different sectors, making things even worse. In her opening speech, the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, talked a lot about England’s sewerage system being not fit for purpose, as did other noble Lords, particularly the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington. We have heard again how, over the past few decades, Ofwat has simply failed to ensure that water companies have invested sufficiently to upgrade, or even just maintain, our water infrastructure. Delivering the necessary improvements to save our rivers now, at speed and at scale, has become a truly enormous task.

I congratulate my noble friend Lord Sikka on his forensic analysis of the water companies’ finances. The work he did was very important, and I encourage the Minister to have a good look at Hansard, because I expect he may need to write to my noble friend at the end of this debate.

We need more enforcement from the Environment Agency, but we have heard that the Government have cut the protection budget hugely—in half—in the last 10 years. With the failure to monitor and investigate pollution incidents, and the failure to enforce the legislation and rules that are supposed to protect our water environment, it is particularly worrying that this has included instructing EA staff not to attend low-level pollution incidents, requiring water companies to self-monitor and self-report. This is simply not going to get the change that we need. We need a strategic direction for water regulation.

The Government’s Plan for Water was published with great fanfare in April last year. The plan included creating a new water restoration fund that would use money from water company fines and penalties taken from their profits—not from their customers—to support local groups and catchment projects such as re-meandering rivers and restoring habitats, which are really important. Nothing has appeared on this since. Can the Minister provide an update on when we are likely to see this? If the Government are to make great announcements and publish lovely plans, they are no good if what they say is going to happen does not then actually happen.

Animal Welfare (Primate Licences) (England) Regulations 2023

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Tuesday 27th February 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock]

At end insert “but regrets that the draft Animal Welfare (Primate Licences) (England) Regulations 2023 seek to implement through secondary legislation proposals that were previously contained in primary legislation; notes that they do not ban keeping primates as pets, and that they lack a grandfather clause; and calls upon His Majesty’s Government to put in place policies that appropriately support the rehoming of surrendered primates.”

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his introduction to this statutory instrument. We on these Benches have been consistently campaigning for a ban on the trading and keeping of primates as pets. The Minister outlined a number of reasons why this needs to happen. The RSPCA found that primates kept in domestic settings were often isolated, could be kept in cramped and inappropriate housing such as parrot cages, and were weaned much earlier than would be natural, causing behavioural problems later in life for infants separated from their mothers.

The Monkey Sanctuary in Cornwall has reported that every pet primate it has rescued came to the sanctuary with behavioural problems such as rocking, pacing, obsessive grooming and biting themselves. Many primates also present with metabolic bone disease and tooth problems linked to vitamin deficiencies caused by poor diet, lack of sunlight and being weaned too early.

At the end of last year, we were pleased to see that, following consultation, the Government announced that:

“Keeping primates as pets will be banned under new legislation … improving the welfare of thousands of animals”.


In response to that consultation, 98.7%—4,500 people—expressed support for a ban on the keeping, breeding, acquiring, gifting, selling or otherwise transferring of primates, apart from to persons licensed to keep primates to zoo-level standards. So it is a bit disappointing that the regulations do not ban the keeping of primates as pets, but instead introduce a licensing system for primate keepers. To draw proper attention to this fact, I have tabled my amendment to the Motion, as it is important that the Government are clear and honest about what the legislation actually does.

I shall lay out our concerns relating to these draft regulations, including a number of issues that could be dealt with via accompanying guidance to the regulations. But first, I thank the RSCPA, the Born Free Foundation and other animal welfare organisations for sending us helpful briefings.

Before I look at the SI in detail, can the Minister confirm in respect of the proposed licensing system that anyone with an animal welfare-related conviction will be excluded? It is important to have that clearly outlined.

There are clear concerns that the Government have backtracked on proposals to include grandfather rights in the regulations, which would enable those who currently own primates to keep them under the previous standards. What will happen in two years’ time to the thousands of primates currently being kept by private individuals who will not meet the licensing requirements, given that there are no provisions for these animals in the regulations?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his careful and considered response to the many questions and issues raised during the debate. Particular concerns were expressed about breeding and exhibiting. I listened to the noble Lord’s explanation, but I still do not understand why people would need to breed or exhibit. The key thing that came through from the debate, for me, was that noble Lords support a complete ban rather than the licensing that has come through. The consultation responses supported a total ban, the Government appeared to support a complete ban, and as I say, all noble Lords who spoke in this debate supported a total ban, so I still do not understand why that is not what the Government brought forward, as it was what we were all expecting. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment to the Motion withdrawn.

Water and Sewage Companies: Directors’ Remuneration

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Thursday 22nd February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by thanking my noble friend Lord Sikka for bringing this important debate to your Lordships’ House today.

I wanted first to comment on the figures he gave on the sheer number of times that water companies have been sanctioned, because those figures are simply appalling. They also clearly demonstrate that, to date, fines have not been acting as a deterrent or changing the behaviour of the water companies in the way that sewage has been dumped into our waterways. As my noble friend Lady Warwick said, we need to have fines and penalties that cannot be ignored in the way they have been to date.

As my noble friend Lord Sikka rightly asks, what have the bonuses been paid for? I hope we will hear some clarification from the Minister around recent government announcements on bonus payments and also how the remit of powers that Ofwat has will be able to curb these excesses. I know the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, mentioned the directive that has been given to Ofwat regarding this. While we clearly welcome that, it is also important to understand how this will practically operate within the existing priorities that the regulator has. For example, the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, talked about the amounts being paid in dividends; how will this actually work in practice, and are the Government intending to review it after a certain amount of time to make sure it is actually making a difference?

The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, also asked some important questions around the environment, flooding and the impacts of our continued planning policies on long-term flooding. This is not just about now; it is also about the future. I would be interested in the Minister’s response to that.

My noble friend Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe talked about the meeting that Labour Peers had with a shadow Secretary of State from the other place and why strong action needs to be taken regarding the water industry and its regulations. I listened very carefully to my noble friend—and I am sure that our shadow Minister in the other place listened very carefully when he spoke to him at that meeting—to the suggestions that he has and how we can improve the current situation.

Let us have a look at what we actually proposed, and also at why our proposals are so urgently needed. For a start, as my noble friend Lord Stansgate said, the country has simply run out of patience on this matter. As he also said, a Labour Government will take decisive action on this matter. To briefly look at our proposals, we have carried out some analysis that shows that water company bosses have awarded themselves over £25 million in bonuses and incentives since the last election, despite repeatedly breaking the law with illegal sewage discharges. The analysis also found that nine water chief executives were paid a staggering £10 million in bonuses, £14 million in incentives—we have had a lot of talk about bonuses; we must not forget about incentives—and over £600,000 in further benefits since 2019, at the same time as customer bills were planned to go up by an extra £156 a year to plug the financial gap. As other noble Lords have said, it is not the customer who should be paying for this failure.

We believe that the water regulator should be given new powers to ban the payment of bonuses. Again, we welcome the Government finally deciding to adopt our plan on this. By expanding Ofwat’s regulatory powers, water companies that fail to meet environmental standards on sewage pollution will face tough sanctions to ensure that they cannot profit from this. When I met with the head of Ofwat some time ago, there was some concern about responsibility between Ofwat and the Environment Agency; it is really important that everyone is clear about who has responsibility for enforcing these things.

Other things we want to plan are to end self-monitoring—this has been mentioned—and to force all companies to monitor every single water outlet, so that sewage dumping can longer be covered up. It is important that all those monitoring stations are actually working, because that has also been a problem in the past.

We also feel that water bosses should face personal criminal liability if this persistent law-breaking is extreme and continues time and again, and if the fines and other sanctions are not making any difference. A BBC “Panorama” investigation found evidence of a water company covering up illegal sewage discharges, making sewage pollution disappear from its official figures. This is really not acceptable. It is important that we bring in more sanctions than the Government are currently proposing. It is time for the polluter to pay, not the public. Will the Minister encourage his Government to go further and back Labour’s whole plan to clean up our rivers and ensure that executives responsible for repeated illegal sewage dumping face criminal charges?

Animal Welfare (Livestock Exports) Bill

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 21st February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by declaring my interest as set out in the register as president of the Rare Breeds Survival Trust, and I thank the Minister for his introduction to the Bill.

We welcome this legislation. Labour has previously called for a ban on live exports and I have personally campaigned on it as well—although not as long as the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, who has worked so long and hard on this; I congratulate her on her efforts and her birthday present today. However, we regret that it has taken so long to bring the Bill forward. We have heard about the Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill, which disappeared last May. If that had come forward, this could be on the statute book already. Therefore it is of regret that we did not do this sooner but we are pleased to see that we are debating it today. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, said, certain elements of that Bill are still to appear, so we hope to see that promised legislation also coming forward.

As we heard, the Bill applies to cattle, sheep, goats, pigs, wild boar, horses and certain other related animals, with the proposed ban applying only to slaughter and fattening exports, and clearly not prohibiting animals travelling for other purposes—for example, breeding or competition. Yet the export of breeding stocks represented a huge percentage of all exports pre Brexit in 2019. I heard that one intention following Brexit was to intensify this by making the UK

“the centre for breeding stock and genetic exports for the world”,

according to the director of the UK Export Certification Partnership. Can the Minister say whether the intention is still to support that?

Considering that the intention to ban livestock export is on welfare grounds and that breeding stocks are exported and then transported using the same standards as for fattening and slaughter stocks, it is also critical that these journeys are undertaken to the highest standards. A number of noble Lords have talked about this. Obviously, it is good that animals are not transported when conditions at sea are poor, but we need clearer regulations and information about what happens to the animals while they are waiting for better sea conditions in order to be transported. How are they kept? Are they still in the trucks? Are they unloaded? How are they fed and watered? What are those conditions? It is important that the Government provide reassurance on that.

As my noble friend Lady Young of Old Scone said, animal welfare can be compromised during long-distance live travel. Animals can experience a range of problems, such as physical injury, hot or cold stress, hunger, hydration and exhaustion, and during export overcrowding means that some cannot lie down at all, while those who do may be injured or trampled. Different animals suffer in different ways. For example, pigs can become very travel sick, even on very short journeys. Newly weaned piglets are more vulnerable than older animals, particularly to temperature changes, so I was very pleased that noble Lords—particularly the noble Lord, Lord Trees—talked about the closure of abattoirs and how that has increased travel distances for animals on our own shores.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, talked about the government funding for abattoirs but the problem with that is that it is to support only existing abattoirs. It will not solve the problem where abattoirs have already closed and left huge gaps with no abattoirs for many miles. I hope that the Minister takes that away because we need to look at how we replace the abattoirs that have gone.

I thank a number of organisations for their briefings. The RSPCA talked about animals being transported to Spain on journeys that lasted up to 96 hours and some animals being slaughtered in Middle Eastern countries such as Lebanon and Libya after being re-exported—and, of course, non-stun slaughter is the norm there. Once animals have left our shores, we have no control over how they are reared or slaughtered. The noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, gave some fairly graphic examples of the terrible conditions that animals have suffered.

We have also heard that live exports of calves halted after 2019 and live exports of sheep halted after 2020. The final export of live farm animals overseas occurred with five lorries laden with sheep leaving Dover on 31 December 2020. Since then, no live sheep have been exported across the channel because, as we have heard, no border control posts have been set up by France and Belgium to receive them and post Brexit animals must go through a BCP. Noble Lords have asked why we need the Bill. It is because without a legal ban the exports could start up again, leaving thousands of British animals vulnerable to cruel, stressful and often unnecessary journeys.

If a suitable BCP were to be installed at Calais and the UK Government had not secured this live-export ban in law, the trade could resume via the same vessels and routes that were being used before January 2021. Additionally, while commercial ferry companies currently do not accept the transportation of live animals for slaughter or fattening overseas on sailings across the English Channel, there is nothing in law to prevent them changing that position. Another scenario is that an individual or company could charter a vessel to operate between Scotland and Northern Ireland. This would allow the trade to resume via Ireland, where there is then a large onward trade to the rest of the EU and beyond.

The Bill is designed to prevent this from occurring, and we support that. The noble Lord, Lord Dodds, the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and my noble friend Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick have talked about the impact on Northern Ireland and how the Bill relates to Northern Ireland and the Republic. I am interested to hear the Minister’s response because these are legitimate questions and concerns for ensuring that this legislation operates as we hope.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hodgson, made the important point about keeping a close eye on imports, as did other noble Baronesses. The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, talked about farming concerns, and the NFU has raised concerns about trade negotiations with countries that export large numbers of animals for fattening and slaughter. It is very important that British livestock farmers are not undercut by imports that do not meet the same high standards that we adhere to in this country—the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Edmundsbury and Ipswich talked at length about this. I am sure I do not need to remind the Minister that we signed trade deals not very long ago with at least one country that does not have standards compatible with this proposed legislation. For example, Australia still permits the live export of animals over long distances, including overseas. Lower animal welfare standards should not be imported, and we should be using our influence to drive up standards in the countries with which we do trade deals.

Poultry has been mentioned by a number of noble Lords, but poultry and rabbits are excluded from the Bill. We know that they are highly sensitive to the effects of heat stress; rabbits and poultry were the most frequently exported animals pre Brexit, particularly the trade in day-old chicks, which we have heard about during the debate, and neither is any more resilient to transportation than any other animal. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, asked about the exclusion of poultry from the Bill; if poultry and rabbits are not included, it is important that we have very strong assurances that any cross-border trade from Britain in day-old chicks and rabbits will meet strict transport and animal welfare standards. The noble Lord, Lord de Clifford, talked about standards during transport, and it is important that we have those strong reassurances, and that proper checks are done, so we can feel that any people who break those standards are held to account.

Finally, I will briefly mention horses. World Horse Welfare recently drew the attention of the EFRA Select Committee to the huge numbers that are still illegally exported to Europe, under the guise of sport, competition or breeding, where they end up being slaughtered. I wonder whether the Minister is aware of this practice because if transport for breeding and competition is allowed, it is important that it does not open the door to such illegal practices. Are the Government intending to tackle this as part of implementing the Bill into law? It is really important that this is stopped. I also support my noble friend Lady Young regarding the opportunity to add further animals into the Bill as an amendment to cover any future issues. It is important that the Bill is as solid as it possibly can be, and there are always changes in the future that we need to manage as we go through legislation.

In conclusion, banning live export for fattening and slaughter has been both a Labour and Conservative manifesto commitment—and of other parties as well—so we strongly support the Bill. We want to see it get Royal Assent as soon as possible, so I hope that, in a general election year, the Government will treat this as a priority, because we cannot afford to risk it being lost.

Right to Roam

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Wednesday 21st February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

My noble friend raises a good point. There are issues around responsible access, such as illegal parking, livestock worrying, disrupting wildlife, damage and littering—a favourite topic of mine. The issues in Scotland are obviously devolved to the Scottish Government, but, if the Westminster Government were ever minded to look at this again, establishing a proper code of conduct for accessing the outdoors, and linking that to a proper consultation and a proper plan for education on this issue, would be absolutely critical.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, it was over 20 years ago that we last had this reviewed, under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act, so I am pleased that that will happen. We have to end this piecemeal approach, which causes completely unnecessary divisions between landowners and people who want to walk. Will the review look at existing footpaths? I can think of a number of footpaths in Cumbria that are completely impassable now. It is really important that we keep existing routes clear and open for people to use.

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a good point. Maintaining access to all these routes is at the forefront of the Government’s agenda at the moment. I will certainly take away her specific point regarding Cumbria and see whether we can do something about that.

Environment Agency: Flood Defence Expenditure

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Tuesday 20th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

My noble friend raises a good point. The allocation of resources is pretty much exactly as she expressed. It is done on the basis that areas most at risk will receive most of the funding. The Government will keep this under review, and I will take that point back to the department.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to come back on the internal drainage boards answer. The councils affected are significantly financially impacted. We had a question yesterday on the impact on council finances. It is all very well that the Prime Minister has announced extra funding—that is excellent—but this is an urgent issue. How much money has been pledged, and when will councils see it?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

I do not have the details to hand at the moment, but I will write to the noble Baroness in due course.