Baroness Hanham
Main Page: Baroness Hanham (Conservative - Life peer)Growth and Infrastructure Bill
Baroness Hanham Excerpts
Baroness Whitaker
My Lords, I declare my interest as president of the South Downs Society. Amendment 35A is in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Renton, who very much regrets that he is not able to get away from snowy Sussex today. The amendment would ensure that the stated intention of Clause 8, to facilitate the rollout of broadband in the national parks, does only that. Mobile phone masts would not be allowed; nor would any different economic purpose of any future Secretary of State be permitted. The Minister has explained, in a very helpful meeting held with her officials, that it is difficult to put this restriction in the Bill and that regulations will make it quite clear that only broadband is in mind. However, I think we need to debate this openly and see the text of the regulations before we accept the very wide power that is on the face of the Bill to install equipment in some of our most cherished and beautiful landscapes. Who knows what some future Secretary of State might want to do?
In Committee, we debated very thoroughly the danger to our national parks, briefed then, as now, by a wide range of organisations representing planning and the countryside, as well as by the Sunday Telegraph a couple of days ago. I do not propose to rehearse the arguments again, but I remind noble Lords that those concerns were shared all round your Lordships’ House. Nobody disputes the importance of broadband in rural areas or wants to impede it in any way. Equally, nobody was able to produce any evidence of difficulty which broadband operators had with any national park, and there were several examples of successful co-operation. Nor was any evidence of or anticipation of trouble given by BT when representatives kindly came to talk to us recently.
In short, there is no need for extensive powers, and the narrower the power, the better. We should be very careful about any precedent-setting power which could imperil the landscapes which parliamentarians before us fought to defend in the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949. Those landscapes are unique and they are vulnerable. I beg to move.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham)
My Lords, as the noble Baroness has explained, the amendment has been tabled to prevent Clause 8 from being used to relax planning requirements for mobile masts. We discussed it extensively in Committee. If that is the intention of the amendment, I fear that it does not have the desired effect; nor would any amendment along these lines. I shall explain why.
At every stage of the Bill’s passage, we have made it clear that Clause 8 was brought forward to enable us to make changes to secondary legislation in relation to fixed broadband infrastructure, not mobile. Further to those reassurances in both Houses of Parliament, as noble Lords will be aware, we published a consultation on 29 January on the proposed changes to secondary legislation that Clause 8 will enable. That consultation also made it clear that the changes in Clause 8 relate only to fixed broadband infrastructure—cabinets and poles. As has been made clear previously in this House and in the other place, it is not possible to limit the scope of the clause to a particular infrastructure or technology. Clause 8 can make no distinction between fixed or mobile infrastructure, because Article 8(1) of the framework directive 2002/21/EC requires technology neutrality.
That is not to say that different technologies or infrastructures all have to be treated the same. They can be treated differently where it is objectively justifiable and proportionate, but that is done at the level of secondary rather than primary legislation. For example, the relative visual impact of different types of communications apparatus is sufficient to justify a differing treatment in planning terms.
As I mentioned, the amendment does not achieve the desired effect. Use of the term “broadband infrastructure” could equally apply to mobile infrastructure, such as mobile masts which provide 3G or 4G mobile services. They would also qualify as broadband infrastructure.
We could not limit the scope of any changes to broadband infrastructure, as that would prevent changes being made to narrowband infrastructure, which might impact on the delivery of narrowband voice services, which would include the 999 service. I am sure that the noble Baroness would not want that.
I can only reiterate that the distinction between fixed and mobile will be delivered through secondary legislation, through regulations which I think are already out to consultation. This measure will be introduced to provide certainty and will be an additional deployment option to enable superfast broadband to be rolled out in the more commercially challenging parts of the UK. As the noble Baroness said, these areas have people’s hearts in them and they do not like to think that they will be changed. I hope the noble Baroness will understand that there is no intention to try to prevaricate in any way or to try to introduce mobile by this clause. It is limited by the secondary legislation but because of the necessity under the EU regulations we have to do it this way. I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for the very great care and attention she has taken in meeting representatives of the national parks and other interested parties and also meeting noble Lords to discuss this issue. It is a model of how a Minister should handle these conversations and I compliment her. In the notes that the noble Baroness circulated to us of the meeting with the national parks representatives, the record of the meeting says that the Minister from the DCMS, Ed Vaizey, gave an undertaking that the drafting of the code of practice would be a collaborative exercise. Can she put on record for the benefit of those who wish to collaborate that the Government will indeed be consulting them, intensively and extensively, as this code of practice is drawn up?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord has seen from the other amendments that are coming up that we will be discussing the code of practice on probably the next amendment or the one after. At that stage I believe that I will be able to give the noble Lord the assurances he seeks.
Baroness Whitaker
My Lords, I echo the thanks of my noble friend Lord Adonis for the very detailed explanation by the noble Baroness, who was very helpful to the many organisations which share my concerns. I am also grateful for her specific explanation of the role of the framework directive as this will now be in Hansard and will be official. That also will be helpful. Her remarks on the consultation on the regulations are reassuring and, if I may, I will have another look at the Government’s text. In the mean time I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, because the noble Baroness has a very important amendment in this group, perhaps I might speak after her rather than before.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I would be delighted to speak to Amendment 36A. I will just find it in my notes. In essence, Amendment 36A ensures that the duty that already exists under Section 109 of the Communications Act 2003 for the Secretary of State to have regard for the environment and beauty of the countryside will be deemed to meet the “have regard” duties set out in protected areas legislation, when the Secretary of State comes to make regulations under Section 109.
Subsections (2), (3), (4), (6) and (7) of Clause 8 caused concern because they disapplied the express “have regard” duty imposed on the Secretary of State when making regulations. As the noble Lord knows, and the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, has been kind enough to indicate, we have listened to concerns and have removed those express disapplications.
The drafting approach could not be replicated in exactly the same way in relation to the “have regard” duty referred to in Clause 8(5) because that is not a duty of the Secretary of State but is specific to a statutory undertaker within the relevant Norfolk and Suffolk Broads Act 1988. However, by using a similar approach, the definition of statutory undertaker within that Act, for the limited period of five years, has been aligned with the policy so as to avoid the express disapplication of the “have regard” duty.
I hope that the amendment reassures the House that our intention was only to ensure that the right legal framework was put in place and that we had no wish to unpick the distinct and settled legislative framework that applies to the national parks. I emphasise that the purpose of our reforms is to ensure that fixed broadband deployment is not held back in the small minority of cases where local planning authorities and communications providers are not able to agree the best siting. The Government remain convinced that the natural environment and landscape are of crucial importance, which is why there will be a number of important safeguards. I could move on to other aspects, but I think that was the bit the noble Lord asked me to speak to.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, who has pursued this issue throughout the passage of the Bill and has achieved a very significant step forward on the part of the Government.
What we need to be clear about is when the Secretary of State will continue to be under a duty to have regard to,
“the need to protect the environment and, in particular, to conserve the natural beauty and amenity of the countryside”,
as required by Section 109(2)(b) of the Communications Act 2003. It is absolutely critical, in the desire that we all share to see the extension of broadband to the national parks and other areas of outstanding natural beauty, that a real obligation with a statutory foundation will continue to be placed on the Secretary of State to have regard to the need to conserve and enhance their natural beauty.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I was remiss in not thanking noble Lords who have thanked me very graciously. I hope we are still in that position when we get to the end of today but for the moment I will accept it with gratitude. It has been my pleasure—and always is—to have discussions with noble Lords and relevant people associated with the Bill. As the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, has said, the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, has moved and shaken this aspect of the Bill and I am delighted that we have now achieved what she and other noble Lords are happy to accept.
With regard to the point about “having regard to”, the Secretary of State’s responsibility for having regard to is not changed by this legislation. It is just amalgamated into one area so it does not have to wander its way through all sorts of bits of legislation. I hope the noble Lord will be happy to accept that.
The Government have never intended to ride roughshod over the protected areas legislation but to ensure that there was sufficient legal certainty in the primary legislation when bringing forward our proposed changes to secondary legislation. Our policy goal is to simplify the planning regime so that the rollout of fixed superfast broadband—so urgently awaited in many of our rural communities—is not held back unnecessarily in the small minority of cases where planning authorities and communications providers are unable to agree the best siting for equipment. The noble Lord asked me a question and I have answered. He is in a position to wind up for his side. Does he wish to speak again?
Baroness Hanham
In Committee, at the noble Lord’s suggestion, I undertook to meet representatives from the English National Park Authorities Association. We did so, with Ministers from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. I met representatives from the English national parks and the National Association for Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty, who highlighted their overriding concern that the express disapplication of the “have regard” duty would set an unwelcome precedent. Following this meeting, we undertook to consider if we could find an alternative way to ensure legal certainty—and that is a more formal response to the noble Lord—and give the necessary powers to amend regulations. I am delighted that, following further discussions between the officials, we have been able to table this amendment which directly addresses the concerns raised and has been welcomed by the English National Park Authorities Association. Amendment 36A picks up that duty.
The purpose of our reforms is to ensure that fixed broadband deployment is not held back in the small minority of cases where local planning authorities and communications providers are not able to agree the best siting. I hope that, after all we have done, this will not become an issue. Should it be, however, at any stage, this is the way it will be managed by the providers.
The Government remain convinced that the natural environment and landscape are of crucial importance, which is why there will be a number of important safeguards. First, the voluntary code on siting best practice for operators and planning authorities will have input from the national parks as the English National Park Authorities Association is involved in the working group which will draft the code. Secondly, communications providers will remain under a statutory duty to consult the local planning authorities on their proposed deployments.
The noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, asked me whether anybody other than BT would be committed by these clauses and amendments. We recognise that there will be other communications providers as well as BT. All providers will be involved in drafting the code and will be committed to complying with it. I have not been given the answer to the question of whether other providers would be able to use BT’s infrastructure, but I hope to know it before I come to the end of my speech.
First, as I said, the voluntary code on siting best practice for operators and planning authorities will have input and secondly, communications providers will remain under a statutory duty to consult local planning authorities. Thirdly, “environmental sustainability” is a requirement of the Broadband Delivery UK contracts in the areas to which they apply, meaning that local authorities are able to specify particular requirements in their Broadband Delivery UK contracts if they wish to do so.
The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, who has expressed support for the amendment—for which I am grateful—presented figures in Committee regarding planning approvals in national parks and suggested that the proposed relaxation of planning controls was unnecessary. I have written to colleagues and responded to the noble Lord’s points. Only a small proportion of those figures which the noble Lord quoted relate specifically to the installation of superfast broadband, which is, as he knows, still in its very early stages in these areas, while the larger proportion will be for voice services for the most part. While the figures show a high percentage of approvals, there has been no indication of the time taken for the decisions to be made. Our proposals are about ensuring certainty across all areas to aid investment decisions and ensure that resources can be deployed efficiently.
We have listened carefully to the concerns and have brought forward Amendment 36A to address them. Crucially, it has the support of the English National Park Authorities Association and the valuable support of my noble friend Lady Parminter. I hope that the House will support it.
The amendment will ensure that the duty that already exists under Section 109 of the Communications Act 2003 for the Secretary of State to have regard to the environment and beauty of the countryside will be deemed to meet the “have regard” duties set out in protected areas legislation when the Secretary of State comes to make regulations under Section 109.
I hope that I have dealt with questions that I have been asked. I shall therefore move Amendment 36A and hope that, with the explanations that I have given, my noble friend Lady Parminter will be willing to withdraw Amendment 36.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, the Minister’s explanation was clear and the position that she has taken is extremely important in preserving the requirement to enhance and conserve the natural beauty of the national parks. We therefore welcome her concessions in the amendment.
Perhaps I may put on the record the conclusions of the meeting which the Minister held with the representatives of the national parks, because they are quite important for how we proceed hereafter—as the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, so rightly said, what is said in this House forms a benchmark for what happens afterwards. At the conclusion of the meeting, the Minister for Culture, Ed Vaizey, emphasised that the clause is not about stigmatising national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty as obstacles. Representatives of the national parks and the areas of outstanding natural beauty reiterated their belief that there was no evidence that they cause issues with deployments and said that they do a lot of work on the issue. Ed Vaizey agreed that national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty do some excellent partnership working. He offered to facilitate regular meetings with representatives of the national parks, areas of outstanding natural beauty and BT to discuss the rollout of superfast broadband in their areas and to ensure that they continue to support deployment and that any issues can be resolved quickly.
Those assurances given to the national parks by the Minister are extremely important. I think it is important to put them on the record and to state very clearly that your Lordships expect that the Government and BT will hold fast to those commitments and will consult intensively and extensively with the representatives of the national parks and the areas of outstanding natural beauty to see that we get the rollout of superfast broadband in the national parks—where there are large numbers of residents and businesses that badly need it—in the most sensitive way possible that conserves and enhances their natural beauty.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I know it is not up to me to intervene again but as we come on to the next amendment it may be helpful to say that I will probably be able to give the noble Lord the assurances he seeks on that as well. With the leave of the House, I should like to answer the question of the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, which was whether any other operators apart from BT will be able to use the BT infrastructure or whether they would have to put in their own. BT is under a regulatory obligation to share its infrastructure.
Baroness Hanham
“( ) In section 109 of the Communications Act 2003 (regulations specifying the restrictions and conditions subject to which the electronic communications code is to apply) after subsection (2) insert—
“(2A) Subsection (2B) applies if—
(a) the Secretary of State has complied with subsection (2)(b) in connection with any particular exercise before 6 April 2018 of the power to make regulations under this section, and(b) the regulations in question are expressed to cease to have effect (other than for transitional purposes) before that date.(2B) The Secretary of State is to be treated as also having complied with any duty imposed in connection with that exercise of that power by any of the following—
section 11A(2) of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949;
section 85(1) of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000;
section 17A(1) of the Norfolk and Suffolk Broads Act 1988;
section 14 of the National Parks (Scotland) Act 2000 (asp 10);
Article 4(1) of the Nature Conservation and Amenity Lands (Northern Ireland) Order 1985 (S.I. 1985/170 (N.I. 1)).”
( ) For the purposes of its application to section 17A of the Norfolk and Suffolk Broads Act 1988, the definition of “statutory undertaker” in section 25(1) of that Act is until 6 April 2018 to be read as if paragraph (d) were omitted.”
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for moving this amendment, which gives us an opportunity to talk about the code of practice and whether it should be statutory or voluntary. At present, we do not believe that the proposed code of best practice for the siting and appearance of fixed broadband infrastructure needs to be given statutory effect. It is important that the code is agreed collectively by all those concerned and given a chance to work as a voluntary code.
In any case, it would not be possible or necessary to bring forward a statutory code of practice in the way that I think is intended. Rather than a statutory code, the material principles of the code of practice would instead need to be included in amended Electronic Communications Code (Conditions and Restrictions) Regulations. The power to provide for these matters in regulations already exists in Section 109 of the Communications Act 2003.
However, additional regulations are not needed. I am pleased to report that work is progressing well in developing a voluntary code. The working group drafting the code has agreed its scope and some broad principles, which I shared with noble Lords last week. While the final detail is still to be worked through, we anticipate that it will provide a good foundation on which to build for the future of broadband. The code working group is made up of communications providers—that is, over and beyond BT—local planning authorities, Ofcom, the Office of the Telecommunications Adjudicator, English Heritage and the national parks. It is a representative group, which is engaging keenly in bringing the code to fruition.
The key to rolling out broadband quickly will be partnership working between communications providers and planning authorities. We want to see that work, and the voluntary code will be an essential tool in achieving that. I believe that there is real commitment from all sides to addressing the issues around how broadband is delivered, the co-operation and co-ordination necessary and the involvement of those affected in the provision and siting of the infrastructure.
Communications providers have committed to taking forward the drafting, but the scope of the code of best practice that was agreed last week includes the size and appearance of cabinets and new poles; their location, including the proximity to homes and businesses, road junctions and placement in the footway; early engagement with all interested parties including local planning authorities, highways authorities, other infrastructure providers in the area; and, in the case of new poles, engagement with communities through the local authority—that is, consultation between us. The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, asked whether there would be mechanisms for dealing with disputes. Part of the code that is being worked up at the moment deals with precisely that: there will be mechanisms for dispute resolution, in the event that there is disagreement. The agreed scope also includes ensuring consistency of definitions and how the code relates to the various pieces of legislation that underpin it; and the consistency of application through the supply chain, including contractors.
Consultation with other infrastructure providers probably includes, most specifically, consulting electricity companies because they work in this area. The purpose of this is to ensure that, before deploying any new infrastructure, providers explore opportunities for sharing existing infrastructure, and that would include underground provision as well. Early consultation with the electricity companies provides an opportunity to co-ordinate deployment with any plans to underground electricity cables in the area, so where everyone is linking up, they ought to be able to use the same trenches and ensure that as much is hidden from view as possible. In the meeting that we had with people from BT, they made it clear that this is what they would want to do—where there are opportunities for undergrounding, they will do it. That is something else that would have to be negotiated with the local authority regarding the contracts that those local authorities hold with BDUK.
I reiterate that local authorities that are procuring networks through the Broadband Delivery UK programme still have the opportunity to influence the type of infrastructure that is deployed; they are the procuring authorities, after all. Local authorities can also make adherence to the code of practice a contractual requirement of the Broadband Delivery UK projects for contracts that they enter into themselves.
In addition, bringing forward regulations at this stage would delay implementation of the broadband support package that the Government set out in September last year, particularly if the voluntary code first needs to be produced and agreed to by all parties, which we are confident will be the case. Indeed, we asked about when these regulations in the code will come into effect. We expect the code to be completed and ready to come in at the end of May—so not too long now.
We are anxious to see broadband implemented as quickly as possible. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, quoted some very interesting figures as regards the number of people who live and work within the national parks. It is not an insignificant number. All of those people, particularly in businesses, need access to fast broadband as soon as they can get it. The difficulty of placing a code on a statutory footing would be getting it in time and at this speed; it could disrupt the productive work that is taking place, which is supported all round.
Having said that, we recognise the concerns that have been expressed again today. We will be monitoring the operation of the code closely for both commercial and publicly funded broadband deployments. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, also referred to the meeting with Ed Vaizey, the Minister in the other place. Reviewing how the code of practice is working will be undertaken by him; he will include this in his regular meetings, which I gather are taking place once a week with all the communications providers. In the first instance, we would expect communications and planning authorities to report back on any early lessons learnt so that they can be reflected in changes to the code of practice. As I made clear, the opportunities for them to do that are very real and there will continue to be very close monitoring at the other end.
If concerns are raised with the Government on adherence to the code, we will of course need to consider whether those concerns are best resolved through bringing forward additional regulation, so this is not being ruled out. I assure the House that if it is concluded that regulation is needed, the necessary regulations could be brought forward with urgency and it would be our aim to put them in place. That could be done within a matter of months should the need arise and subject, of course, to Parliament agreeing to those regulations.
I hope that I have made clear why we do not support this amendment, which would, particularly at the moment, introduce delay. We believe that there are enough checks and balances in the code itself and from the monitoring that will take place within the Minister’s office and by the local authorities themselves—they have a very real role and interest in this. For the time being, anyway, we do not need a statutory code: we believe that the voluntary code will work. I hope that, with the assurances I have given, the noble Baroness will be able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Parminter
My Lords, I am grateful for those reassurances from the Minister and for the Government’s commitment to a strong code of practice. I am also grateful for the clarification that should this voluntary code fail to deliver the outcomes that we in this House wish it to, and to which at this stage both the broadband operators and the planning authorities are committed, the Government will look seriously at bringing forward—at the earliest opportunity, through secondary legislation—opportunities to make this statutory. With that, I seek the leave of the House to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, I agree with the very last words of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. I have huge admiration for my noble friend Lord Judd, but even he would accept that they are not his national parks but the nation’s parks. That is why the concerns that have been raised this afternoon are so significant. They are held in trust for the nation, and we want to see that their beauty is preserved and enhanced for subsequent generations so that all the good work done by my noble friend is not wasted in the years ahead.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, nobody in this House would disagree with the last remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. We all have an interest and are all convinced that we want to keep hold of the beauty of the national parks and preserve them from totally inappropriate infrastructure. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, rather suggested that what I was saying was mere words. I hope that noble Lords will take it a step beyond that. In fact, mere words can be made to translate intention into real life. The scrutiny that this House has given this clause is invaluable because it will be exactly and precisely recorded how the broadband operators are going to work and how everybody is going to co-operate. The reasoning behind the clause will be made clear.
The noble Lord, Lord Judd, kept saying, “Why is this clause necessary at all?”. When we started this afternoon, I gave a rather truncated version of why the clause is necessary. It will make sure that the providers know how long this whole process will take. Everybody wants this completed as soon as possible. If there are problems at any stage that hold that up and that cannot be dealt with by the code of practice, the consultations or the discussions between all the parties, at the end of the day the operators will know that they can proceed—although it will probably be over everybody’s dead body. We believe that that is important. Goodness knows, we all know of many projects that get held up because people disagree and nobody will come to a conclusion, but this will ensure that there is a conclusion and that the process can proceed. Again, I expect there to be a hold-up in a very limited number of cases but, should those cases arise, these provisions will be helpful for carrying on and ensuring that we deliver broadband as quickly as we possibly can.
It may be of interest to noble Lords to know that for the first time Ofcom has published something called the European Broadband Scorecard. I am sure that noble Lords have all lit on this as something which has the lightness of touch that they want to read at night as they go to bed. It is intended to allow the Government to measure progress towards their ambition. The scorecard currently shows that the United Kingdom is performing well among the major European economies. We currently benefit from low prices and a high degree of competition in the broadband market, and so far the UK has the best deals available for consumers across a selection of pricing bundles in the major European economies. On superfast broadband coverage, this country currently ranks in third place behind Germany and Spain. Clause 8 is intended to help to improve on that position by making sure that we achieve our goals by 2015.
We recognise that more rural and remote areas, including protected areas, are where an infrastructure upgrade is needed the most. We also recognise that they are some of the areas in the country where there is most sensitivity. However, we do not want those rural areas to be left behind.
The national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty have been key partners in the rollout of broadband and we very much welcome their involvement, their commitment to the process and their conclusion that the first amendment I moved, in particular, was satisfactory and solved their particular problems.
Things are already happening. Connecting Cumbria is a partnership which has brought together a range of partners who are already working together and improving the broadband process. When Ed Vaizey, the Minister for Culture, Communications and Creative Industries, and I met with representatives from the national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty, he confirmed—and I confirm again what I said in relation to the previous amendment—his intention to continue working closely and having regular meetings with them throughout the deployment of superfast broadband.
The Government remain convinced that the natural environment and landscape is of vital importance. That is why the code of best siting practice for operators and planning authorities will have input from the national parks. That is why the duty that we are adding to promote economic growth sits alongside the other duties, including,
“the need to protect the environment and, in particular, to conserve the natural beauty and amenity of the countryside”.
That is why “environmental sustainability” is a condition of the Broadband Delivery UK contracts.
The rollout of superfast broadband is of national importance because of the contribution that it can make to GDP growth, apart from anything else. It is, however, an infrastructure that is built locally. Local authorities know their areas and that is why the Government have given them a central role in all this. They are in charge of the Broadband Delivery UK contracts in their areas and will be able to set their own conditions on those contracts. For example—and here I underline the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis—if they want to, they can specify in the contracts that in certain areas cables must be underground. They can also specify requirements in respect of the visual impact of installations. This can include compliance with the code of best siting practice, when it has been agreed, which it is hoped will be in May.
A number of questions have been raised as to why, given the excellent work under way from the national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty, this clause is necessary. I hope that I gave the answer to that in my opening response. It is crucial not only that we achieve value for money from the investment that we make but that we get speed broadband developed as quickly as we possibly can.
It is important to make the point that we are not suggesting that without this clause applications for cabinets or poles will be turned down. We recognise that the vast majority of applications for telecoms equipment have been accepted to date and that the national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty are extremely keen to work with us on broadband coverage. I have given the reasons for this clause twice now, so I will not go through them again.
It is also about providing local authorities with a choice of deployment options. The relaxation of the restriction on new overhead lines does not mean that it will become the default deployment option. Perhaps I may also make it clear, for the avoidance of doubt, that the intention is not to use the Clause 8 power to remove prior approval requirements for mobile masts. This measure is being introduced to provide flexibility and an additional deployment option to enable superfast broadband to be deployed in the more commercially challenging parts of the UK.
We have had an excellent discussion on this clause. We have spent quite a lot of time on it in this House and I do not regret that at all. At the end of the day—and I hope at the end of today—we will all have provided answers to some of the many questions that have been raised. I hope that, as a result of what we have done in the House today and the work that has been undertaken, we can be sure that superfast broadband will be rolled out as quickly as possible. With that, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, will feel satisfied enough to be able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Judd
My Lords, I will be brief. We have been debating the importance of these new developments in the countryside in order that the economy will prosper. Technological development is sometimes faster than we believe or anticipate even now, and all sorts of changes can happen. It is entirely feasible that in quite a reasonably short period of time in historical terms, a lot of what we are talking about now will become obsolescent.
Who has the responsibility for putting the countryside back to how it was before we made special arrangements to breach our wider commitments? I hope that the Minister will have an opportunity to put forward how we can have watertight arrangements for ensuring that when projects of this kind are being costed by firms, the cost of removing the unsightly debris is part of their responsibility. One just thinks of the debris from the first industrial revolution, which despoiled vast areas of our countryside and indeed urban areas. Surely we have progressed. I would like to hear what the Minister has to say on this.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, that was a very straightforward question from the noble Lord, and an understandable one in light of what we have been talking about: the new infrastructure. Perhaps I can give him a couple of very straightforward answers, because that is probably what he is looking for.
There are already provisions covering electronic communications infrastructure under Part 24 in the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Order. Where equipment has been installed using Part 24 permitted development rights, which I think is what we have been talking about, and the equipment is no longer needed, communications providers are required to remove it and to restore the land to its former condition or a condition acceptable to the local planning authority. Of course, national parks are their own planning authority. Failure to comply with a Part 24 condition would be a breach of planning control, and local planning authorities could use their enforcement powers to have the matter put right.
Where the equipment has been installed on private land, the Electronic Communications Code also provides for landowners to serve notices on communications providers requesting its removal. Paragraph 22 of the code specifically addresses what the noble Lord means by “redundant” equipment:
“where the operator has a right conferred by or in accordance with this code for the statutory purposes to keep electronic communications apparatus installed on, under or over any land, he is not entitled to keep that apparatus so installed if, at a time when the apparatus is not, or is no longer, used for the purposes of the operator’s network, there is no reasonable likelihood that it will be so used”.
In layman’s terms, that means that they are meant to clear it up if they do not need it any more. If the operator refuses to remove the equipment and the equipment is not lawfully on the land, the landowner is entitled to enforce its removal.
In respect of electricity underground cables and buried gas lines, it is generally more efficient and less environmentally damaging to leave any redundant equipment in place, but I presume that one must make sure that the land is returned as it would have been. In respect of overhead power lines, landowners can serve a notice under Schedule 4 to the Electricity Act 1989 to remove the equipment on their land, and the Secretary of State will consider each case on its merits.
I hope that that sufficiently reassures the noble Lord that there are provisions to ensure that what he fears might happen cannot happen and that they can be enforced. I hope that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Judd
My Lords, I thank the Minister for having said what she has said and getting it on the record. We shall need to monitor this extremely carefully. This could well be another of those cases where we just cheerfully hand on to future generations the costs of our immediate priorities. I am not so sure that that is always a very good idea or a very responsible way to behave. I wish that at every point we could bring home to those who are taking steps that inevitably detract from the qualitative value of the countryside that they have real financial responsibilities for putting right what they have put wrong. Perhaps at some stage, when it is clearer how things are developing, we will have to consider specific legislation in this regard. In the mean time, I thank the Minister and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I have added my name to this amendment and we are wholly supportive of it. We have heard from the noble Lord, Lord True, a devastating critique of the Government’s proposals, strongly supported by the noble Lord, Lord Tope. We have heard the practical and professional considerations from the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, about what they mean in practice. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Elton, described a typical garden, and that is exactly the situation in large areas of Luton that were built in the early part of the previous century and sometimes before. The noble Lord is absolutely right that neighbours can impact dramatically on the quality of life, and the Government’s proposal for permitted development rights is actually facilitating that.
In many ways this is a very modest amendment, more modest than that which my noble friend Lady Donaghy is going to move in a moment. It focuses only on development within the curtilage of a property. It operates from January 2013 and is not proposed to be retrospective to any significant degree, and it is consistent with the principles of localism, which seems to be a core matter.
The noble Lord, Lord True, and others referred to what will undoubtedly again be the Government’s defence on this: Article 4 directions. We will come on to that again when we debate the following amendment. Is it still the position that the Secretary of State’s general approach to making an Article 4 direction, as set out in paragraph 4.23 of planning policy guidance note 15—I am not sure that policy guidance note still exists or what may have replaced it—is that,
“permitted development rights should not be withdrawn without clear justification”,
such as where a real and specific threat of development is being carried out that would damage an interest of acknowledged importance? If those are the criteria by which the Secretary of State acts, that would not be a defence in many situations that have been envisaged. That reference may be slightly out of date, but it would be good to hear something more up to date from the Minister.
At the end of the day this does not prevent anybody who wishes to have an extension in the rear garden from seeking planning permission in the normal way. Perversely, if permitted development rights had been withdrawn by an Article 4 procedure, you could not get fees for that planning application. However, it is perfectly possible that people will go through the normal process, so this is not denying anyone any rights.
It is a pity that we come to this at this hour. I am not sure what the noble Lord is going to do, but it would be well worth testing the opinion of the House when it is full because I think there would be very strong support for the noble Lord. I hope that at the very least we will hear from the Minister that the Government will take away the tenor of this debate and agree to look at the issue before Third Reading.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I hear what the noble Lord has said and what my noble friend has said in moving the amendment. I appreciate very much that noble Lords wish to make sure that local authorities are able to adapt national permitted development rights to their own circumstances. Indeed, it is an important element, which we recognise, that national development rights have an effect on different areas, urban and rural. The noble Lord did not speak to Amendment 46AA, which would be the other side of the coin: opt in or opt out. Therefore, I will address only Amendment 46.
There has been some tweaking, with noble Lords saying that I will use Article 4 directions in my response. Not surprisingly, I am going to do so. As the noble Lords, Lord True and Lord Tope, will be well aware, an Article 4 direction can already be introduced to remove specific permitted development rights in a defined area. Those areas can be very small: only a few houses, a conservation area, one street or two blocks of houses. They can be tailored in a way that puts a permitted development into a defined area.
There was a suggestion that if an Article 4 direction was put forward it had to be submitted to the Secretary of State for a decision. It does not have to go to the Secretary of State for approval. The Secretary of State would intervene only where the power was being used unreasonably by the local planning authority. One would hope that that would never take place as the planning authority would have to consult local residents before implementation. It is not sensible just to wipe out the Article 4 directions. It is one of the lines that local authorities can take and we would expect them to do so where necessary.
With regard to the proposed permitted development right and its effect, we would expect neighbours to talk to neighbours about this and to have some interest in what they are going to say. Local authorities are also able to put conditions on permitted development if it is thought to be justified.
Lord Elton
Such conversations very often do happen and they result in almost open warfare. They do not often result in amicable decisions such as “Okay, we will not build a second storey because you do not want it”. The pressures of the benefit to the developer overcome the priorities of good neighbourliness.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, my noble friend said “benefit to the developer”. The development is limited to the curtilage of the building and the benefit is to the person who owns the property and who wants to extend it, for their own use, to a limited extent—to have a new kitchen or whatever they need. I hear what my noble friend says but, first, the amount is limited to the curtilage and, secondly, it would be expected that consultation would take place.
There are many people who wish to do smallish extensions to their houses. The noble Lord, Lord True, suggests this is “garden-grabbing” but it is their garden and the garden-grabbing we have talked about in the past has been new developments in back gardens which are clearly not just modest extensions to people’s houses. It is probably not very good to deny people the benefits of being able to extend their houses somewhat.
Lord Campbell-Savours
I am sorry, but this is just agony. What are the origins of this proposal? It was not in the coalition manifesto, it was not in the Conservative manifesto, it was not in the Liberal Democrat manifesto. Where has it come from? What are the origins of this nonsense?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, this policy is being put forward to extend the localism rights that we have been moving towards across neighbourhood plans, community budgets and everything that brings more control and power into the hands of local people. This is just an addition to that to make it more helpful and constructive for local people to manage their own affairs.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am afraid my noble friend is living in a world of her own. I will show her some correspondence between me and one of my near neighbours relating to a proposed development which ended up in the High Court. In that case, we did not have the amicable conversations which she imagines.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I hear what the noble Lord says. Consultation on this matter closed in December. We have had 1,000 responses and these will be available before we get round to secondary legislation which will be in a very few months, presuming that the clause is accepted by both Houses.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Has there been some analysis of the consultation thus far, and, if so, might we get at least a first cut of it before Third Reading?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I think not. I have been told that it will be available before secondary legislation.
Lord Adonis
What is the big problem about analysing 1,000 responses in time to allow your Lordships’ House to see them before we proceed to Third Reading?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, they will be ready before secondary legislation. If they can be ready at any stage before that I will make sure that they are, but I am advised that it will be at the secondary legislation stage. I rely for my response—
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, when does my noble friend propose to introduce the secondary legislation?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I remind noble Lords that we are on Report and there are specific rules which should be borne in mind.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that. The consultation will be available within the next few months, probably by May, as will the response and the secondary legislation.
I rely, in my response, on the ability for local authorities to use Article 4 directions. It is perfectly reasonable for them to do so, but it is also reasonable for people who own houses to wish to extend them and to do so without having to go through the procedures of planning applications when the extension is relatively modest. I hope noble Lords will feel able—
Lord Hunt of Chesterton
Is there some limit to the height? In many gardens, the most important things are wind and lighting and you can occlude the sun in your neighbour’s garden. We are hearing an extraordinary speech. A neighbourhood is a set of houses, built and designed in a way that we all understood when we bought those houses. If one person wants to push out, all the other people will push out and it will have an extraordinary effect on neighbourhoods. This will be a social revolution. What survey did the Government do of people around the country? Did they just listen to some bureaucratic process? Have there been social surveys across the country? I do not believe there have been. This is a change to the whole British way of life. I have been a councillor and I have seen these effects.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I have to remind noble Lords that we are on Report, not in Committee. As your Lordships know, we are a self-governing Chamber. As the Companion states, there are specific criteria we need to observe and we owe the Minister that level of respect in allowing her to finish her response. If noble Lords wish to push this to the vote, that is a matter for them. At this time, we are on Report and I would ask noble Lords to respect that.
Baroness Hanham
The answer to the question about the extent is that it is limited to a single storey and within the curtilage of the building.
I have reminded the House that a consultation has taken place and that we will see the results before secondary legislation, that there is the question of Article 4 directions being used and that it is, and should be, the right of citizens to extend their houses if they wish.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Before the Minister sits down, she has not dealt with the point about the criteria that guide the Secretary of State’s engagement with Article 4 directions, in particular planning policy guidance note 15—or its replacement if it has been updated—which states:
“Permitted development rights should not be withdrawn without clear justification such as where there is a real and specific threat of development being carried out that would damage an interest of acknowledged importance”.
If those are the criteria that guide the Secretary of State in these matters we would want to know about it and certainly know about it before Third Reading.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I do not have a response to that. I would need to take advice on it. If I can come back on that aspect before Third Reading I will.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Will the Minister come back at Third Reading if she is not able to do so beforehand?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I am advised that there has not been an update, so I presume that that guidance would be followed. Let us bear in mind, too, that the Secretary of State does not have to approve. He will take an interest only if he wishes to. With those explanations, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, and the noble Lord, Lord Tope, who has not spoken to this amendment but whose name has been added to it. It has the admirable aim of giving local authorities the power to decide how to adapt the nationally set permitted development and local development orders.
The noble Lord asked me for details about Article 4. I say straight away that I do not have them on me. If the noble Baroness is not going to press her amendment today, I shall be very happy to see that answers to the questions that have been asked are available before Third Reading in terms of the interpretation of Article 4 and how it can be used by the Secretary of State. I think that might be helpful under the circumstances as I rely again on the fact that local authorities can use Article 4 directions, particularly where the aim is to extend permitted development rights locally. They can be used with local development orders, and local development orders provide a quick and simple way to do this.
It is correct, as the noble Baroness said, that they have not been widely used. They were introduced of course under the last Administration but they are beginning to be used. I have a note here of where a number have been used to bring into control extensive changes of use for ground-floor units, for example, or where local development orders have been granted to extend household and permitted development rights in a village. Therefore, they have their uses and they are certainly beginning to move forward. Local authorities are beginning to recognise their benefits and that they can be put in place through a simple and streamlined procedure.
More than 30 local development orders have now been put in place in enterprise zones, and, as we speak, local development orders are contributing to growth by helping to speed up the delivery of everything from small domestic alterations to major industrial development. They can be used pretty widely across the piece.
The noble Baroness has given an outline, perhaps, of what she wanted to deal with. If she is not going to press the amendment today and is likely to return to this matter at Third Reading—which I think she would be entitled to do—I will make sure that the information about the Article 4 make-up is made available. I hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Donaghy
I thank the Minister for her response and my noble friend Lord McKenzie for his support. I will withdraw my amendment. I just wanted to underline the fundamental difference in perception between the Department of Communities and Local Government and the LGA on the usefulness and appropriateness of LDOs and Article 4. It seems to me that the perception is so fundamentally different that there has to be something wrong somewhere. Therefore, I would appreciate a lot more information about the examples the noble Baroness has given about LDOs in that particular area and also a lot more information about why her department feels that Article 4 is flexible and the Local Government Association does not. On the basis of an assurance that we will have that information before the House, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.