Ukraine

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Monday 15th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, from these Benches, as so often when we discuss Ukraine or other defence matters, I endorse wholeheartedly everything that has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker. Therefore, rather than re-iterating the questions he has raised, I will ask a few more about what is going on on the ground in Ukraine.

Like the noble Lord, I obviously welcome this Statement, and we endorse what His Majesty’s Government have been doing in terms of support for Ukraine. It was very clear when Boris Johnson was Prime Minister how far the United Kingdom supported Ukraine and stood shoulder to shoulder. It was not immediately clear that that was followed through, and I think that today it has become very clear that Rishi Sunak as Prime Minister really does understand the importance of supporting Ukraine to the largest extent possible.

The Secretary of State for Defence has said on numerous occasions that the Statements he makes are deemed to be “proportionate”. I would be grateful if the Minister could explain to the House, as the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, has asked, what precisely is being offered today and what more His Majesty’s Government expect to do. I initially had this Statement as a “check against delivery” document which had a nice little bit in red which said, in square brackets, “blank for announcement”. The announcement is covered in Hansard, but even Hansard from last Thursday has been overtaken by the discussions today, so I think the House would welcome an understanding of what is happening in terms of drones and long-range missiles.

I particularly wanted to ask what discussions His Majesty’s Government may be having, not just with NATO partners but within the UN, about some of the war crimes being perpetrated. The Secretary of State’s Statement talked about the casualties, but also various war crimes. In particular, one of the issues that we have seen in Syria, and which we are seeing again now in Ukraine, is the bombardment of healthcare facilities. What assessment have His Majesty’s Government made of the actions of Russia in this regard, and to what extent is it possible to already begin to make a case? Those victims—innocent children and others who are in hospital facilities—really need to be looked at as a matter of urgency. Clearly, as the noble Lord, Lord Coaker said, we also support the men on the front line and the women and children who may be at home, but that wanton attack on healthcare facilities is unspeakable. Equally, there have been attacks on energy facilities and nuclear power facilities, and I wonder what activity His Majesty’s Government are undertaking to support Ukraine in making sure its infrastructure is secure. Beyond the military hardware and the training, are His Majesty’s Government are able to provide additional support on the ground in that regard—we obviously know about the humanitarian aid.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, I conclude by supporting the work that has been done by His Majesty’s Government and our service personnel in helping train the Ukrainians.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, for the tenor of their remarks. I welcome their support. I think one of the most important demonstrations of this political unanimity is evidenced by the response of the noble Baroness, the noble Lord and their counterparts in the other place. I think that sends a powerful message from the UK that Putin has to understand—the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, made the point—that we are not just absolutely joined together in the UK but are playing our role with our allies and partners; it is that aggregate effect which is having such a detrimental impact on Putin’s illegal war.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, praised Germany. I absolutely agree with that; it is a very welcome augmentation of all the help that has been given. I think the noble Lord asked me specifically about recent discussions between the UK and the United States. I cannot comment on specific detail, but I can say that we are regularly in communication and, of course, at the various international fora because we have the G7 imminently approaching. Of course, there will be further discussions with the US there.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked about Storm Shadow, which is an air launch capability, and whether Ukraine has sufficient planes to mount that. My understanding is that it has. I cannot comment specifically on operational activity, but I would seek to reassure the Chamber that that capability is up, ready and capable of action with immediate effect.

The noble Lord asked a specific question which I think his colleague in the other place, the right honourable John Healey, asked, about whether all armoured vehicles have been delivered. I know that a lot of them have been delivered, but I do not have the precise details, so I will undertake to write to noble Lords once I am aware of the content of the response being delivered by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State.

There were some specific questions about the nature of what was announced today. Today was indeed a very exciting day for the United Kingdom and, I hope, for President Zelensky. Once again, we commend President Zelensky for his unflagging dedication to his country and his unflagging energy and tireless efforts to continue to beat the drum, to go around potential donors and try to make them aware, as acutely as he can, of what the need is and how immediately that has to be responded to. I think today was a case in point.

Of the further provisions that were announced today, these are air defence missiles and unmanned aerial systems; that includes hundreds of new long-range attack drones. I have a little more specific information about that. The unmanned aerial systems will improve the Armed Forces of Ukraine’s ability to find targets, to improve accuracy of artillery fire, to resupply AFU personnel operating across the front lines and to disrupt Russian logistics and command nodes.

I understand that the longer-range attack drones will deliver a kinetic effect comparable to an artillery shell, but they will extend the range at which Ukraine can target and disrupt Russian activity. In a sense, that complements what is a pretty mighty weapon in the form of Storm Shadow. Your Lordships will be aware that that has a very pronounced lethality effect. That is precisely why we think that is what Ukraine needs now to deal with this relentless onslaught by the Russian forces as they seek to prosecute their illegal occupation.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, sought clarification that all of these armaments and different types of weaponry being made available by the United Kingdom to Ukraine are clearly donated for defensive purposes. They are. Indeed, there is nothing provocative about this. The United Kingdom is absolutely clear: our responsibility is to help Ukraine to defend itself. That has been our consistent approach to all this. Of course, this illegal war could end tomorrow if Russia agreed to stop it and to withdraw from its illegal occupation.

The noble Lord had a question about the training on the fighter jets. I have some information on that. I am given to understand that, this summer, we will commence an elementary flying phase for cohorts of Ukrainian pilots to learn basic training. As your Lordships will understand, the plane we are now talking about is the F16. That is not part of the UK’s capability, but apparently we are able to adapt the programme used by UK pilots to provide Ukrainians with piloting skills that they can apply to a different kind of aircraft. That training goes hand in hand with UK efforts, which are continuing, to work with other countries on providing F16 jets, which are now declared to be Ukraine’s fighter jet of choice. As to more specific information about the training programme, I can only undertake to investigate further; if I learn more I will undertake to inform your Lordships.

The noble Lord specifically raised the Wagner Group, which we all agree is a brutal and repugnant organisation. If the Government are considering proscribing any organisation, they do not comment on whether that is under consideration. However, I can say to your Lordships that significant measures have already been taken against the Wagner Group; that includes sanctioning Yevgeny Prigozhin and his family, and Dmitry Utkin, who are leading personnel within the Wagner Group. We are very clear about our desire to do everything we can to disable the Wagner Group. As I said, it is an entirely repugnant organisation, and your Lordships will be aware of the at times appalling conduct in which it has engaged.

The noble Lord asked specifically about the help we have been able to give on the humanitarian front, and specifically about how we are helping Ukraine to look to the future. It is very important, and signifies a note of optimism, that people are thinking about the future. The UK has been a leading bilateral humanitarian donor, with a £220 million package of humanitarian aid. We have also given a significant amount—about £75 million—of fiscal support grant and a £100 million grant to support Ukraine’s energy security reforms. Importantly, with our Ukrainian friends we will co-host the 2023 Ukraine recovery conference in June. We plan to mobilise public and private finance to ensure that Ukraine gets the vital reconstruction investment that it needs.

I might just mention that current UK recovery activity is focused on immediate needs, such as demining and the restoration of essential infrastructure and services. That includes support for the Halo Trust, which has demined more than 55,000 square metres of land, and a £10 million aid package to help Ukrainian Railways to repair damaged rail infrastructure.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked about war crimes and quite rightly raised the absolutely disgraceful and atrocious bombardment by Russian forces of innocent civilian facilities, whether that is dwelling houses of individuals or healthcare facilities, all of which is appalling and completely unacceptable. As she will be aware, we have been doing everything we can to support the International Criminal Court in the pursuit of its important work. I think we are all very clear that war crimes have been committed. The International Criminal Court has issued a warrant for arrest and we are supporting it. Interestingly, alongside the United States and the European Union, we have established the Atrocity Crimes Advisory Group in support of Ukraine’s domestic war crimes prosecutions.

The final point that was raised related to an important observation by the noble Baroness about the Secretary of State, my right honourable friend Ben Wallace, making proportionate Statements. I am absolutely clear and he has been at pains to articulate, as he did when he was dealing with the Statement in the other place, that all of this is about giving a proportionate response to enable Ukraine to defend itself in answer to brutal, absolutely objectionable and appalling behaviour by the illegal invading Russian forces.

I hope I have managed to deal with the principal points raised, but if there is anything I have omitted I shall undertake to write.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister is correct to say that today is an important day. The whole House supports President Zelensky in his trip around some of the key European partners over the last few days. I myself saw for the first time ever helicopters landing live on the lawn at Chequers. I do not know whether other Members noticed it; I do not think I have ever seen that before. However, I want to ask just one question about Storm Shadow, to which the Minister referred. As I understand it, this missile has a longer range than others previously provided by us to Ukraine. Without getting into operational matters, I want the Minister to reassure the House that some understanding or arrangement has been made with Ukraine that absolutely minimises any risk that one of these missiles supplied by us should land on sovereign Russian territory.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I assure the noble Viscount that we have agreed mechanisms in place to ensure that these weapons will be used within Ukrainian territory to disrupt Russia’s ability to strike Ukrainian civilians and critical national infrastructure, and to relieve pressure on Ukraine’s front lines. It might be helpful for him to know that this capability is subject to the missile technology control regime. On that basis, we have in place a Government-to-Government assurance with Ukraine to facilitate the transfer.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, clearly, the whole House is behind the support that the Government are showing for the Government of Ukraine against the illegal attack from Russia. But clearly, the more that we are at the forefront of that, the more likely it is that we may be subject to some form of retaliation, whether explicitly or by grey zone means, to which it would be difficult to attribute the reasons concerned. For example, as we know from the past year or so, there has been interest from Russian submarines in the undersea cables that come into this country, and there have been issues around the pipelines. All of these things go on all of the time. Could the Minister give us some reassurance, without going into too much detail, as to the measures we are taking to deal with possible activities, potentially on a deniable basis, against us as a result of the support we are showing for Ukraine?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble Lord poses an important question. Regarding recent activity, he is correct that Russian ships were operating in the North Sea. The Ministry of Defence constantly monitors activity within UK waters and the economic exclusion zone to counter and deter detected threats, and British warships frequently patrol and shadow foreign vessels throughout the UK marine area. Royal Navy vessels are routed through the North Sea where possible on increased surveillance of offshore oil and gas installations. In addition to our effective armed surface fleet, we also have multirole ocean surveillance vessels. HMS “Scott” is currently in service and operating, and very recently we made an off-the-shelf purchase to acquire at speed a new multirole ocean surveillance vessel, recently named RFA “Proteus”. It is currently being readied for operational activity, so I hope I can reassure your Lordships that we are vigilant about that threat.

[Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con)]

Like others, I congratulate the Government on all the support they are giving to Ukraine. My noble friend touched on war crimes. There has been much sexual violence perpetrated by Russian troops. The UK has been at the forefront of the preventing sexual violence in conflict initiative. Are we helping Ukraine with documenting war crimes so that eventually, people can be held to account for them? Also, we are not hearing much from the women of Ukraine at the moment. Like many wars, this war is looking solely masculine, but we all know that women and children are disproportionately affected. Will we be helping to ensure that women participate in any peace talks that take place and that they are included in any plans for reconstructing and rebuilding Ukraine, which I imagine will be discussed at the upcoming Ukraine recovery conference here in London next month?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The UK is very conscious of the atrocities which have been perpetrated by Russian forces in Ukraine. We respond to that as best we can with a mixture of humanitarian aid, some of which I have already described. For example, we have given very significant donations of medical support to Ukraine. My noble friend makes an important point about the role of women in Ukraine. Ms Zelenska has been an admirable advocate for the position of women in Ukraine. I do not think any of us will forget her eloquent address to parliamentarians when she came to visit us, and I think we were all moved by what she had to say. She described graphically the situation to which my noble friend refers. Undoubtedly, as we try to construct a programme of recovery activity, women in Ukraine will have an extremely important role to play, and I hope that many of them will feel they can be involved and included. Perhaps what my noble friend perceives as a low profile by Ukrainian women is simply attributable to their fundamental desire to keep themselves and their children safe, to keep as far as possible out of danger and to ensure that they simply can survive from one day to the next. Our sympathy goes out to all the women in that plight, who are, against all odds, showing such courageous and stoic leadership in looking after their families.

[Lord Hussain (LD)]

I agree with everything that has been said. Many countries are supporting the Russian economy even through this war, and that includes purchasing Russian oil. Some of those countries we know very well. They are good friends of Britain as well, including India. What are His Majesty’s Government doing to persuade India not to purchase Russian oil while the war in Ukraine is going on?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The United Kingdom was instrumental in getting an oil price cap placed on Russian oil, so oil prices have fallen significantly for Russia, apparently lowering its energy revenues by more than 25%. We as a country always advocate that people should not be supporting the illegal invasion of Ukraine and that they should be looking at every activity in which they engage to work out whether it supports Russia or not. We are aware that the effect of sanctions on Russia and the Russian economy has been significant, such that Russia is in recession. Russia’s GDP declined by 2% to 3% in 2022, and forecasts suggest that it will fall a further 1.5% in 2023, which is apparently the longest recession for more than 25 years. There is evidence that Russia is being starved of the key western goods and technology it requires, and we are seeing that in its inability to produce modern equipment and up-to-date technology. It seems that its larder is bare in that respect.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I can help the Minister regarding her response to the noble Baroness, Lady Hodgson. During my visit to Kyiv last November, I heard some interesting reports from the EU mission that female police officers were stepping into those roles when male police officers had gone off to fight. The EU had been supplying them with appropriately fitted bullet-proof vests and other safety materials. Does the Minister know whether we have been giving any support along those lines? I entirely understand if she would like to write to me on that. That could be an obvious and positive way of encouraging the use of female police officers and female involvement in the justice system as a way forward.

I am pleased to see that the Statement contains a paragraph on the important and pressing issue of the safety of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. Reuters reported a couple of days ago that the IAEA chief was planning to take to the UN Security Council a proposed deal which it was hoped both Ukraine and Russia would sign, in an attempt to keep the largest nuclear power plant in Europe safe. Can the Minister tell me anything about that? Are the Government prepared to provide any support that might be useful, because the obvious problem will be how to monitor the situation and see what is happening on the ground? The Ukrainian atomic energy agency has expressed concern about the loss of staff. Are the Government prepared to offer any help they can in that area?

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[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her interesting observation following her visit to Ukraine. She illustrates a poignant example of the importance of Ukrainian women’s contribution to the resistance to what is happening in their country. I was not aware of the situation she described. I will investigate whether any of the humanitarian aid we are providing can specifically assist women who are taking up these roles because their male counterparts are at the front fighting the Russian invasion.

On the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, the situation is concerning. We have made it clear that Russia should withdraw its forces and return full control of the plant to Ukraine, so we support all efforts to reduce the risks to the plant and we commend the IAEA’s work to ensure security there. If any progress can be made within the United Nations forum to achieve a safer environment for the power plant, that is certainly to be encouraged and commended.

[Lord Brownlow of Shurlock Row (Con)]

My Lords, despite the subject, it is a rare pleasure to see such unity across your Lordships’ House and in the other place on a goal. I thank the Minister for her ongoing transparency, to the best of her abilities, and for answering the questions from all sides of the House on this initiative. I urge the Government to do as much as they can to maintain information and transparency to the media and the public, in order to ensure that the public remain on side at this important time, after 16 months.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank my noble friend. There are probably two prisms through which to look at this. One is that, just as the MoD, for example, has been fastidious but helpful in disclosing intelligence—which has certainly countered a lot of Russian misinformation and propaganda—the evidence we are getting is that the conduit of social media that we use is now reaching a pretty large audience. I very much hope that this has altered the dynamic. There was a very unequal balance in which disinformation and misinformation were predominant. I hope that we are neutralising that now and that a much more honest impression is being gleaned, particularly by people in Russia, about what their Government are doing.

The mirror effect is that people in this country understand what is happening and that it is wrong. Consider the millions who watched the Eurovision Song Contest and then learned that, during the Ukrainian contribution, the hometown of the two Ukrainian singers was being bombarded by Russian onslaught. People will have found that absolutely nauseating. It is, frankly, indicative of the bullying brutalism of Putin’s attack in Ukraine.

There is a clear understanding in the United Kingdom that something bad and wrong has happened, and we are doing everything we can with friends and allies to resist that and help Ukraine to defend itself. With a very popular medium such as the Eurovision Song Contest, members of the United Kingdom public will have got the message clearly: while two creative artists were doing what they do—singing and entertaining—Putin was arranging to bomb their hometown. They will be appalled by that and will say, “Anything you can do to counter and address that evil, do it”.