Property Agents: Registration

Baroness Gardner of Parkes Excerpts

Wednesday 18th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that. He rightly identified the £2 billion of additional money that was announced on 2 October for affordable housing. We will shortly issue details of how the money will be spent. On the ground rent issue, I mentioned in relation to leasehold reform that we will be responding to the consultation very shortly and looking at banning future long leaseholds with ground rents where they are inappropriate. I am very happy to look at the Jarndyce v Jarndyce situation he referred to in Newcastle—obviously I am not acquainted with it at the moment but I will have a look at the position and would be happy to meet him to discuss it if it would be helpful.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as set out in the register and will try to keep my remarks short. I think that the Minister is in need of looking at what we have thrown out that we should not have. The leasehold valuation tribunal was a way of dealing with things very simply: you could get somewhere with it. Instead, the Minister mentioned the courts. This is one of the problems. If everyone has to go through expensive court proceedings for even the most minor thing, it is very difficult.

I was not able to speak in the debate the other day and so could not draw it to the attention of the House, but the Minister does not appreciate the number of rogue and totally illegal landlords, in particular in London, which is the area I know. I have discovered that homeless people could probably get somewhere to live, but only if they are prepared to pay rent in a place where no one is meant to be subletting. Is it not time that the Minister liaised more with the local authorities and returned powers to them? That way, we would know what was happening in these properties. In extreme cases, local authorities can be told, but the homeless people I have seen have been put out because it came out that they were paying rent and the landlord was not declaring a penny of it to anyone.

I will not go on about Airbnb or holiday lets because I am always speaking about that and have a Question coming up on it. However, there needs to be consultation on many things and local authorities are the bodies authorised to do this. But when I asked in a Written Question what consultations the department had had with local authorities, the Answer that came back was none. I have tabled another Written Question to ask: why not? I could go on and on—there are so many aspects to this and I hope that the consultation period will allow us to look into these issues thoroughly.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend. I anticipate that she will respond to the consultation and I encourage her to do so. On the housing court, I think my noble friend is in danger of running ahead of herself. We have not published any proposals on this, as yet. We are discussing the right way forward with the Ministry of Justice. That is work in progress. On rogue landlords, this April we introduced civil penalties of up to—from memory—£30,000.

I did notice that my noble friend had put down a number of Questions on local authorities, and we will of course respond to those. At the moment, local authorities have considerable powers in relation to the sort of activity she is talking about. And I note with relief that she did not push the issue of Airbnb today.

Domestic Violence: Victims

Baroness Gardner of Parkes Excerpts

Tuesday 12th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

No, my Lords. The noble Baroness will not be surprised to hear that I do not accept that. I am meeting Katie Ghose, the chief executive of Women’s Aid, this afternoon, and I look forward to that meeting. We very much value working with our partners. As I have indicated, we are putting in more money—but it is not just about money. As the noble Baroness will know, we will shortly bring forward domestic abuse legislation, which will look at some of the deep-seated issues.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)]

Is the Minister aware of the sort of situation in which people are suffering? For example, I am dealing at the moment with the case of someone who has been threatened by her landlord—an illegal landlord—that if she is not out by Friday he will take action. This is all because she called in the police when some of her stuff was stolen; that had been going on for years while she lived there. But when someone phones the police, they say, “This is a civil matter and nothing to do with the police”. Is it not time there was some particular central thing, rather than just the local authority list, which this woman was on for four years and was then told that anyone who had not been on the list for five years would be taken off it? This happened in Camden, which I think has good policies otherwise. What is the answer about the police, and the fact that they will not get involved when these dangerous situations arise?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am not aware of the particular situation the noble Baroness is referring to, but I know that we work closely with the police. They are a much-valued partner in relation to this. As I said, legislation will be forthcoming. We shall consult in the autumn on the principles of that legislation, and I think that it will be ground-breaking.

Subterranean Development Bill [HL]

Baroness Gardner of Parkes Excerpts

Friday 10th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, we debated this on the Localism Bill, and since then we have had a number of meetings about the subject. One of the real problems is that at present, unless you are in a conservation area, a basement is permitted development and there is therefore no consultation or awareness among the neighbours of what is going to happen until it does, which can be very upsetting for people. I have been approached by huge numbers of people, all of whom are concerned about what is happening.

I take a slightly different view. I agree with my noble friend Lord Jenkin that you do not want to stop people making basements. If people need more space, they are not allowed to go up and perhaps the only way they can afford to expand their home for a growing family is to go down, so I am not opposed to people making basements. I do not need to declare an interest regarding my own house, because I think it probably cannot have a basement. However, in the adjoining streets of the area where I live, over 50 per cent of the people have already developed their basement or have permission to do so. It would be very wrong to say that the other 50 per cent could not do it, as why would some have been able to do it because they got in before the law changed and others not? The most essential thing is to have protection for people while this work is going on.

Some local authorities—I point out Kensington and Chelsea in particular—have excellent guidelines for anything that requires planning permission. You must have a structural engineer doing the plans and supervising the work. You must be sure that the neighbours are aware that the hours of work will be reasonable and that all sorts of conditions are attached, which works very well indeed provided you have to get planning permission. If on the other hand you can just go right ahead and do it, that makes rather a difference.

Financial protection is as important as physical protection. Again, near where I now live, someone dug a basement and then went bankrupt. It was a huge space; I think they spent three years digging it. The place just stayed there, as there was no money from anywhere to deal with the problem and no one had any right to deal with it. If proper party-wall agreements were included and one had to put up a bond or insurance of some type to cover someone being unable to complete the work, it would take a great deal of worry away from neighbours who feel that they might be faced with that situation.

A structural engineer spoke to me about this recently. He said that one point I should make, which I think is relevant, is that if an insurance policy is taken out, it is very important that all parties are party to the agreement. He explained a case he had had in which the builder had failed to comply with anything and was told that he must now claim on his insurance, but he said, “Oh no, I’m not claiming on my insurance. It is very much cheaper for me to go bankrupt. I can set up another £100 company and start again, whereas if I claim on that insurance I am going to lose my no-claim benefit. No, it does not suit me at all”. No party in that had an opportunity or right to claim for the financial compensation to deal with it, because the only party listed on the policy was the one man who did not wish to exercise that right. That is quite an important point.

People tell me that the most important thing of all is to have a construction management plan so that hours of work are established, there is consultation with locals and it can be established whether you need hand-digging in certain sensitive areas. My noble friend Lord Jenkin has given us horrendous tales; we have all read about them in the papers too. They are pretty terrible, but on the other hand there is controlled basement production. When we talk about it not yet being a national problem, that is for now, but as time goes by and land becomes scarcer and more people need more space, it will expand. It will not remain in this small area.

Someone mentioned subterranean development the first time the Secretary of State came to speak to us, and he did not even know what it was. He certainly knows now, because there has been such a lot of publicity about it, but he was quite surprised by the term. It was very limited in the first instance, but everyone now knows the position about basements and wants to see adequate protection, planning and supervision of the works. Anyone who wants to read more of my comments on this can look up the debates on the Localism Bill, because I know that we do not want to spend time on it this morning. I strongly support the Bill.

Localism Bill

Baroness Gardner of Parkes Excerpts

Monday 31st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape]

My Lords, I am reluctant to intervene in the debate but do so having listened to the arguments for the amendment put forward so ably by my noble friend Lord Hart. Like my noble friend Lord Sewel the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, I had the honour—I will not do irony, either—to serve on a local authority before being elected to the other place. Not being a lawyer, I would like the Minister to tell me what predetermination actually means. Like my noble friend Lord Sewel, I confess that the Labour group on the local authority of which I was a member, eventually becoming leader, met before council meetings and decided the group view on various issues. Is that predetermination, or not? If it is, is it caught by the provisions of the Bill?

I take the view that both Houses of Parliament interfere far too much in local authority matters. I well understand the view that where planning matters are concerned the letter of the law should be laid down and followed. The previous Labour Government created a standards authority for local government, which quickly became bogged down. If you traded insults in a council chamber, a complaint was made to that body and all sorts of trivia were discussed at that level. I do not wish to tie the hands of local authority members more than successive governments have done over the years, but I am concerned about both the clause and my noble friend’s amendment.

My noble friend is not just a lawyer—he advises lawyers, as well. He is doubly damned in my eyes, I have to tell him. But he did not define predetermination in speaking to the amendment. Like my noble friend Lord Sewel, I think that the Minister really ought to do so. I end as I began: tying the hands of local authority members is something that both Houses of Parliament have done over the years, in my view quite unnecessarily.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, always moves his amendments superbly, and I am fascinated by them, although I heard it elsewhere than in the Chamber this evening, and I apologise for that. But I think that he does not look at this matter from the point of view of people being elected. Ever so many people are elected simply because they have always had some pet subject that was very much of local interest, and that is what got them elected. Any of those people, under this amendment, will find themselves being accused or blamed for the fact that they fought in that way. I am thinking of the Member of the House of Commons, who was elected on the single issue about the hospital in Worcestershire, and elected not once but twice on that issue. Would we have all condemned him if he had shown a particular interest in the hospital in Worcestershire? It is unrealistic to believe that people could be completely opposed to something that they had fought for for years.

The other side of that is that anyone sitting on any planning committee should do so with an open mind. If they do not have one, they have no right to sit on that committee and they should declare it as such. That should deal with the matter, rather than this amendment.

[Lord Greaves]

I declare an interest, since it is Third Reading, or redeclare an interest as a member of Pendle Borough Council, which has a local planning authority on whose planning committee I sit.

I smiled when the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, got into a little bit of trouble for trying to use his native Bradfordian flat irony in your Lordships' House, which is something that I also get into trouble about for the same reasons. I sometimes think that we should run a campaign so that we have a means of telling Hansard to insert a smiley at appropriate places, but I suspect that that is a campaign that I will not win in my lifetime.

I regret the fact that I did not get involved more in this issue in Clause 25, as it now is, earlier in the passage of the Bill. It is not completely satisfactory as it stands, but I think that the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, would make things worse. I shall explain why in a minute. I do so not from his position as an eminent lawyer who knows about things like predetermination, predisposition and perhaps predestination as well, I do not know—or perhaps not. I come from the point of view of how these things are now looked at in local government. What people have not really been talking about is that within local government there is a general belief at the moment that there are two types of issue. There are those that people say are in some way quasi-judicial, or involve things like appointments and disciplinary hearings, as well as planning and licensing, whereby the approach of councillors has to be less predisposed than on other matters. When I got back on the council eight years ago, I spent the whole election campaign speaking about the number of empty, boarded-up houses in my ward. I thought that the position had deteriorated appallingly in the six years I had not been a councillor. The electors actually agreed with me, for once. I have spent a lot of the eight years since then working hard on the council to do something about that problem. I am totally biased on this matter; I think that it is an appalling problem, and I campaign on the council and outside the council to try to solve it and make no bones whatever about that. But if a planning application came up in relation to one of those houses, I would step back and regard it and treat it as a planning application. That is quite well known within local government, although perhaps not as well known in some councils as it should be—but it is the case. Therefore, there is a problem here in that both the Bill and the amendment are broad-brush and do not make that distinction between different types of issue, which are certainly well understood within local government.

I have problems with the words predisposition and predetermination. It may be that in the courts of this land they are well understood, but I do not believe that most councillors would understand those words if you put them to them. The word that is more used in local authority government in relation to that kind of problem is fettering. Councillors are told that they must not fetter their discretion when it comes to things like licensing and planning applications. That is the word that is used—but fettering includes both predisposition and predetermination. The attempt to pull back from the straitjacket that councillors are in at the moment is well done.

I do not think that the position is well understood, as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said on Report and said again today, but one problem is that different councils apply different rules. In some cases, when planning applications are submitted—that is probably what we are talking about most here—councillors are banned absolutely from speaking to anybody, including residents, applicants, objectors or the local press. Some councils are absolutely draconian in doing this: one is not allowed to talk to anybody unless one is in the presence of a planning officer. That is totally unrealistic on many councils that do not have lots of spare planning officers to wander around with councillors who are talking to people on their patch.

All this did not originally come from the courts. I particularly noticed it because I was not a councillor for six years and during that time, between 14 and eight years ago, the whole regime changed. It came from decisions of the Local Government Ombudsman, where there were complaints that councillors had made up their mind on planning applications before the applications were dealt with. It also came from references to the standards authorities, particularly the Standards Board for England. That is where this whole regime within local government has come from.

The noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, made the point that councillors are different because they are elected. Therefore, the regime that has to apply to councillors as opposed to other public officials and people serving on tribunals and so on is different because they are elected. Very often they have fought election campaigns and taken part in local campaigning. We have examples from around the country. A market town provides one classic example. A particular political party had campaigned vigorously against the redevelopment of a town centre that involved a big supermarket as the core of that redevelopment. All its councillors—the party had swept the board—were banned from taking part in the part in the decisions once they were elected because it was said they had fettered their discretion because they were part of a party which had won elections on that basis. Clearly there is a huge conflict here between local democracy and fair decision-making. Electors cannot be expected to understand that.

Regarding the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, I would say that there is a lot of talk of bail hostels. As long as a bail hostel is small and is confined to an existing house, I do not think it needs planning permission. It is not a good example in that sense, but I understand the point made by the noble Lord. We have all had to deal with a very difficult application where a lot of residents have been strongly opposed to it, yet it has actually been right. That is when councillors have to gird their loins and do what is right. They do not always do it, but that is democracy.

The amendment of the noble Lord is an admirable attempt to clarify the position. Subsection (2)(c) of the amendment states that,

“an earlier statement or conduct by the decision-maker that amounts to predetermination shall be taken into account and given such weight as is appropriate in the circumstances of the case”,

I do not believe that even local authority lawyers will understand that sufficiently to give clear advice to their councillors, and councillors certainly will not understand it because they will not understand what amounts to predetermination. The words,

“given such weight as is appropriate in the circumstances of the case”,

are a recipe for a lot of lawyers to earn a lot of money when matters come to court to determine what they mean in the circumstances of a particular case. I do not believe it is a useful check on what one does in a particular circumstance that happens locally. Therefore, I do not think the amendment of the noble Lord provides clarity. In a practical sense, at a local level, it will make matters a lot worse, with no clarity.

The problem is that council lawyers are well known for being top of the league of people who err on the side of caution on pretty well everything. If the House were to pass this, it would result in no change to the present position, in which it is the councillors who are totally fettered from doing the job that people elect them to do.

The noble Lord, Lord Hart of Chilton, said that if councillors are given the advice that they cannot say or do anything or take part in any discussions before it goes to a planning committee, it is bad advice. All I can say is that if it is bad advice, it is universal bad advice. Given the choice of two not wholly satisfactory wordings, I very much prefer that of the Government.

Localism Bill

Baroness Gardner of Parkes Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wilkins]

My Lords, I speak to Amendments 30 and 31 concerning the Bill’s removal of automatic succession rights for relatives of those living in local authority properties and the Government’s introduction of express terms of tenancy. The purpose of these amendments is to ensure that the Government make it explicit how and when these express terms of tenancies should be given to people other than spouses and civil partners to succeed a tenancy. The learning disability organisation Mencap is concerned that, as the Bill stands, it potentially weakens the position of disabled people who live with their parents or relatives in succeeding a tenancy. It also undermines the position of carers who have had to give up their own homes to look after a parent or relative. This issue was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rix, in the truncated hours of the Committee stage, and he would have moved these amendments today had he been able to be present. He of course supports them and is grateful to the Minister for meeting him to discuss his concerns.

The right of succession is especially important for some of society’s most vulnerable groups—especially for disabled people who have lived with and been supported by their parents well on into their adult lives. According to current figures, between 50 per cent and 55 per cent of people with a learning disability still live with their parents. Their right to the home where they have lived all their lives is currently protected when their parents pass away. The Bill removes that security.

While the Government’s move to introduce express terms of tenancy is partially welcome, it does not go far enough in protecting the interests of disabled people. It is left to the discretion of housing providers and local authorities, which may well restrict the number of tenancies with an express provision because the position is not clear cut as it is now, so that such tenancies become rarer over time. Furthermore, tenancy agreements could be drafted and agreed at a time when there is no likelihood that an express term in the tenancy agreement will be needed. However, family circumstances can change drastically, and then a carer or a disabled son or daughter could be at risk of losing the security of their home if the housing provider is unwilling to change the terms of the tenancy agreement.

The amendments would ensure that regulations were in place to outline under which circumstances and to which groups of people an express term of the tenancy should give a right to succession. Hopefully, it would be clearer that disabled people, including those with a learning disability, living with parents and relatives who have given up their home to care for a disabled relative would be entitled to a succession to the tenancy. Unless the Secretary of State sets out directions for a standard for succession rights beyond a spouse or a civil partner, the default position of housing providers could undermine the long-term interests of disabled people. That could be one of the unintended consequences of the Bill. I hope that the Government will support the amendments. I beg to move.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, I have every sympathy with the amendment, as it deals with an important issue, but I am concerned about one thing. I am all for people who have given up their homes to care for someone else to have a right of further occupation somewhere, but where a property has been specifically adapted for a disabled person, I would be much happier to see another disabled person able to use that accommodation. It should not be naturally guaranteed that the person who was there simply as a carer should then take over a property that might be eminently suited to another disabled person. I wonder whether that issue needs to be considered under the amendment.

[Lord Wigley]

I support the noble Baroness’s amendment. I do so declaring an interest as vice-president of Mencap Wales and having discussed these matters with the noble Lord, Lord Rix. This issue is of considerable concern to those who campaign for and work with people with disabilities—particularly learning disabilities. The insecurity that can be caused by the uncertainty arising from changes in legislation can undermine such people even more than those who are able-bodied but who none the less have a valid case for security of tenure. There is considerable concern and dismay in the world of disability about the changes. I hope that the Minister can give assurances that can put those people’s minds at rest. The last thing that we would want to do from this Chamber is to perpetuate or worsen the insecurity felt by those vulnerable people.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, makes a very interesting case. I do not propose to follow him into the detail of ground 8, but I shall comment on the fact that we are going through a period of some upheaval in relation to housing benefit, which brings a particular poignancy to the point which he raises. If we look at what is on the cards, we know that local housing allowance rates are now set at the 30th percentile of local market rents. We know that a cap on the local housing allowance rate has been introduced. We know that under the Welfare Reform Bill, local housing allowances are going to be uprated by CPI in future rather than by reference to what is happening to rents. We know that there is an increase in the non-dependant deduction, and we know that there are changes to the shared room rate as well. Each of those things creates some challenges in the administration of housing benefit.

Moreover, we are on the cusp of having something called universal benefit, and all the housing benefits will eventually be paid through that process but at a time when the Government are seeking to uncouple the administration of housing benefit from council tax benefit. The practicalities of that present a real challenge, because we know that lots of councils will have contracted out those joint arrangements and how you unpick and administer them is a really challenging issue—quite apart from the issue of whether they are going to be direct payments or how the payment of housing support is going to flow through. We know what the Government’s answer is going to be because we have read it in the book that was presented to us, and I doubt that that has changed over the weeks since that appeared. The point made by the noble Lord seems to me to be especially relevant at this time because of this great upheaval around housing benefit.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

I would like to ask a question about this amendment, which I am not entirely clear about. I have been told recently by people who have had court possession orders and eviction notices served on them that that does not really put them out of anything until the bailiffs come in. What is the position if the court grants a possession order but the bailiffs have not been instructed? I understand that there is usually quite a time lag between those two events and that the housing benefit comes through in that time, particularly when it has been delayed. How would that work in relation to those two different procedures?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I have all sorts of answers that were given in the letter, which I was absolutely satisfied covered everything that could possibly be raised. I am stuck on this position about the courts and will have to come back to noble Lords, because the response I have already given is that landlords must have the right to go for possession, particularly where there are rent arrears and particularly where those are long term. On the other hand, landlords are expected to use every possible means of supporting tenants to sustain their tenancies and to prevent unnecessary evictions. That should be a requirement on all social landlords within a revised tenancy standard. The expectation is that evictions should happen only as a very last resort.

There is a well established pre-action protocol on rent arrears and the data show a steady decline in evictions of housing association tenants in recent years. However, we believe that good practice in managing rent arrears should not exclude using mandatory grounds in limited circumstances—right at the end of the road when the landlord really had not been able to come to any satisfactory conclusion. Recent independent research suggests that mandatory grounds are used sparingly, in less than 5 per cent of total housing association evictions for rent arrears. That is not a very high percentage, and indicates that it is not being used as a blunt instrument and takes proper account of the particular circumstances of the case.

There are protocols and we expect landlords to abide by them. I do not think we want to remove the mandatory aspect of ground 8 from the legislation. Under the previous Government, a working group was convened to look at the issue in detail and it commissioned independent research through the Tenant Services Authority. However, there was absolutely no unanimity among external partners that abolishing ground 8 was necessary or desirable.

Having talked long enough, I have been able to get at least a partial reply to my ignorance about what happens in the courts. The grant of possession does not necessarily mean eviction. Landlords may need to apply to the court again for an eviction order and arrears could be resolved before that point, which should have been the situation in the case mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer. If it is an arrear, time should be given for housing benefit to come through to prevent that eviction.

I think I understood the noble Lord to say that the courts felt that they had no alternative but to grant possession and to ensure eviction. I may have misunderstood him but I hope I have not. If that is the situation, I simply say again that no action should necessarily need to be taken immediately as a result of that court decision, particularly if it relates to money and it is felt that eviction is likely to come about. I am bound to say that in that scenario I would expect the landlords to have got to that situation before they apply for eviction, but there may be reasons why they have not.

We would resist removing ground 8, which leaves room for negotiation and should not have the effect of ensuring that tenants are automatically evicted as part of the court decision. If I have misunderstood anything that the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, has said, he is bound to let me know when he replies to the amendment. If necessary I will look at that position again, but I hope I have picked up the main points of his concerns. I very much hope that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Localism Bill

Baroness Gardner of Parkes Excerpts

Tuesday 19th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Whitaker]

My Lords, in supporting Amendment 154, I have very little to add to what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, who covered the main ground. I emphasise that at the moment the legislative proposal does not apply only to Gypsies and Travellers; the double whammy covers everybody who is caught in that situation. I am most grateful to the Minister for the meeting we had earlier, at which I think it was registered that there is a certain amount of confusion between the intended and unintended effects. If the legislation is not amended, not only will there be more confusion, but there is likely to be more contentious litigation and the prospect of a challenge to the legislation's compatibility with human rights.

As the Minister will know, previously the UK Government defended the reliance of the planning system on the right to be heard by an impartial planning inspector. This legislation does not match up to any of that. I look forward to the Minister's response.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, my Amendment 155 is in this group. After listening to the complexity of the last amendment, I must say that mine is extremely simple. However, it is not quite what I intended to table. It is headed, “Requirement for consultation on retrospective application”, which is exactly what I believe should happen. However, it says that the local planning authority may require an applicant to do this. My view is that the council planning authority should do this.

I have had personal experience in two parts of the country. In my village, local people supported an application to convert a barn opposite into a home and to build a wall two metres high. Suddenly, we found that we were faced with a wall at least two to three metres higher than originally proposed. When we said that we were not consulted, we were told that the builders of the wall had been given retrospective permission. However, it was given without any of the people who had taken an interest in the application, and in many cases supported it, having any idea that the thing had gone back for retrospective permission. I believe that anyone who sent in comments on the original application should certainly be consulted again, but I do not think I intended it to be the applicant doing it. I intended it to be part of the planning procedure. It is a very simple amendment. It cut out the lovely view we all had of the village green, the only unspoilt part, where there are sheep and so forth wandering around. Instead, we have got a wall three metres extra in height. I think this sort of thing is happening to people everywhere, and it should be covered.

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords, I have the fourth amendment —Amendment 170CH—in the group, which is a bit of a mixed bag. I also added my name to the first amendment which was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, and support everything he said about it.

Amendment 170CH is another amendment which originated with the RTPI. I am also grateful for help with it from Vivien Green, who is a planning consultant who lives not very far away from me in Pendle. The amendment would add two new sections to the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. The first would be new Section 106D, “Notification of initiation of development”, the key part of which reads:

“A person who intends to carry out development for which permission has been granted or for which a local development order, a neighbourhood development order or a community right to build order has been made must as soon as practicable after deciding on a date on which to initiate the development inform the local planning authority of that date”.

It also requires the local planning authority to draw attention to this provision when it gives permission for development.

The second new section, Section 106E, “Display of notice during development”, states that,

“A person carrying out relevant development must display a notice containing prescribed information while the development is taking place”,

and gives some more details about the classes of development to which this applies—it obviously would not apply to small developments or simple changes of use—and to some other provisions in relation to it.

There is no doubt that there is a general problem with enforcement. In general, enforcement is something that local planning authorities do not always do as well as they do some of their other tasks. It is seen as something that you do when you have a bit of spare time, perhaps, and it does not get the same resources put into it. That includes enforcement of conditions and of compliance with the details of planning applications. It is our view that a provision that developers and people with planning permission should have to inform the local planning authority when development starts would be of help in this respect.

Such a provision would ensure that checks can then be made on pre-commencement conditions and subsequently that development is proceeding in accordance with approved plans. It is already a mandatory requirement for developers to give 48 hours’ notice of intention to commence work under the building regulations. Of course, developers may use someone other than the council to provide building control, but, nevertheless, many still use the council. Even if a developer is going to use a council building inspector, in a number cases the development can commence by the actions of the developer long before a building control notice is required.

I have been provided with correspondence between the Member of Parliament for Pendle, Andrew Stephenson MP, who was originally contacted by Vivien Green to take this matter up, and Bob Neill, the Minister, whose letter puts the argument about why the Government are not happy about this, which is perhaps what the Minister is going to say. The letter says:

“However, I would be reluctant to impose a further statutory requirement of this nature on developers, in addition to those that apply under Building Regulations and the Community Infrastructure Levy system, particularly when we cannot know whether local planning authorities would be likely to use the information routinely or only exceptionally. If a developer is suspected of having failed to comply with any pre-commencement condition, the local planning authority’s enforcement team is still able to take action”.

However, I think the argument that it is onerous should not be taken too seriously. Filling in a simple form, possibly a prepaid one, to notify the council of the intention to start development is not a great burden and is definitely not in the same league as the CIL system. Where developers are using the local authority for building control purposes, they have to notify them under the building regs. It would be perfectly possible to have a joint form so that there would be hardly any extra work. It has been a statutory duty to notify the planning authority in Scotland since 2009, and developers did not raise this requirement as an issue or a cost when the impact of those changes was assessed recently by the Scottish Government. It is a relatively minor thing for people to do but it could have a significant effect in improving the system of making sure that people are adhering to conditions and to the planning application that has been approved. In our view, it would be a useful small reform. I look forward to the Minister’s comments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, in moving the amendment, I thought that it would be useful if I also spoke to the other amendments grouped with it. The need for Amendments 155A to 155C has arisen in the light of case law and difficulties encountered in some recent experiences. Although there is no doubt or disagreement that Clause 109 should be aimed only at the worst cases of concealment—I am sure that all noble Lords know about the case of the house in a barn in Welwyn Hatfield recently decided by the Supreme Court—the Law Society thought that the current drafting could be interpreted more widely. The Government also think that it is important that local planning authorities should be able to reassure landowners who are not responsible for breaches of planning control on their land that they are not in danger of prosecution. My noble friend Lady Hanham has written to noble Lords with an explanation of what the amendments do. Therefore, with the leave of the Committee I do not propose to go into further detail today, but if there are questions, I am happy to write to noble Lords.

Perhaps it would be easier for me to respond to Amendment 156 at the conclusion of the debate on this group. I beg to move.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

I shall speak briefly to Amendment 156 concerning the removal of time limits on enforcement. I am not sure whether this is exactly what I was aiming for because I certainly would not want to do anything which would make the enforcement last forever. However, I am quite shocked by the enforcement procedures that have been put in place close to where I am in London. The council has put an enforcement order on a conservation area, but nothing has ever happened. The people have put in French windows and large terraces, and the council was successful in getting an enforcement order. I do not know whether the owners live abroad and I do not know why it has not been possible to get anything done about it, but I wonder whether it might be that despite having the orders, you run out of time and nothing can be done. Perhaps the Minister could clarify whether all those enforcement orders last for ever or only for the time limit within which you can apply for enforcement against something. I am concerned that if a breach has occurred and enforcement action is taken but no result is achieved, the person concerned will get away with it.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, we have Amendments 156A and 156B in this group, which relate to penalty levels. I thank again the RTPI, which welcomes the increase in penalty level proposed in the Bill but considers that it should be even higher. This, it is argued, will help concentrate the minds of magistrates and help focus on the potential seriousness of offences. Amendment 156A is proposed by way of probing the rationale behind the level set by the Government. Equally probing is the amendment to Clause 110(2)(b), which relates to land situated in Wales. Doubtless there is an extensive and constitutional reason why there is a difference between levels of penalty in England and Wales. Perhaps the Minister could let us know how that works.

On government Amendment 155C, it is a bit odd to serve a notice on somebody and then write them a letter and say, “Well, in a sense, we didn’t mean it”. It seems rather a bizarre solution to an issue which I accept has to be dealt with. I wonder whether there is not a more elegant way of avoiding serving the notice on the landlord in the first instance. There may be other ramifications of not doing so, but to serve a notice and then to say, “Well, don’t worry—we’re not going to prosecute”, seems rather an odd thing for government to do.

Localism Bill

Baroness Gardner of Parkes Excerpts

Thursday 14th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, I, too, support the statement of my noble friend Lord Lucas. It is quite appalling that we have made such little progress. My next amendment is Amendment 149. Today is the eighth day that I have come here believing that we have reached Amendment 149. Instead, as I have said to people, I find 50 other amendments piled in before it. I have counted them while I waited through proceedings on the police Bill, and 125 amendments are piled in before me today. Of those, only three groups have simple numbers, and come from before the first day of the Committee. They are original amendments. Others go as far as Amendment 152ZZA. That seems the most far-reaching number that I have found for any of the other amendments. It is unbelievable how many Zs and things can come up in this. This is a terribly important Bill and the rate of progress has been dreadful. It is very important that we deal with this before the Recess because there is so much work to be done before Report. The Minister and those who have moved amendments will need to do a lot a work before we get to Report. We must finish this before we rise. If we have to sit on Thursday, I am only too happy to do so, or I will sit all night on Wednesday. For the Bill to just drift on in the way that it has is a disgrace to the House.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, we all share the desire for the Bill to make as speedy a passage through your Lordships’ House as possible. It is not up to us or indeed to the Ministers who support the Bill to arrange these things but for the usual channels. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, in raising the issue talked about being able to reschedule Tuesday and other days in the week. The noble Lord perhaps ought to be mindful that some of us, not just one of us, have commitments under the Welfare Reform Bill as well, which has its Second Reading. We understand that that is a very important Bill for the Government.

I am very clear that we need to do the job properly in scrutinising this Bill. In so far as it might be alleged that there has been delay, it cannot be laid at our door. I do not believe that the noble Lord did that. We still have a lot to get through: most of the planning stuff, some very important housing stuff and issues around London. Frankly, even if we sat right through the night on Wednesday, I do not see that we would conclude by having one more day, particularly as we must have the Third Reading of the Bill that we just sat through. I do not think it is practical.

I really am opposed to sitting through the night when we are discussing a Bill that has a lot of intricacies in it; a lot of it is complex and technical, and we need to deal with it when we have minds that are still relatively fresh. I do not personally see that it would be a great disaster if we picked this up and concluded it when we are back in September. The key thing is that we should have the time to scrutinise the Bill properly and have the time and opportunity to do it when we are at least not all falling asleep on the Benches.

International Women's Day

Baroness Gardner of Parkes Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, for this debate today. It is my good fortune to be able to congratulate Anne, the noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin, on her moving maiden speech. She has done much to help women in politics and she is going to make a great contribution to this House. You might wonder why I am so convinced of this. When I entered the House 30 years ago, her grandmother, Lady Davidson—she was always known as Lady Davidson, and to many of us as Mimi, although her title was Baroness Northchurch—was an active Member. She told me one day at tea in the Peers’ Dining Room that, when she became a Peer, which was quite a long time earlier, the Dining Room was full of small tables. She said that Members needed to be able to talk to one another, and it is because of her intervention that the Long Table exists today. I am convinced that this practice of Members taking the next seat, irrespective of party, provides a unique means of communication and discussion and makes a significant contribution to the work that we do. I had always imagined that it was an age-old tradition, but no, it was all due to Lady Davidson.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin, has special historic connections with this House: three of her grandparents were Peers, and her Uncle Andrew, Lord Davidson, was a Deputy Chief Whip. Other well known and much loved kinsmen were her first cousin Richard, Lord Acton, and Davina, Baroness Darcy de Knayth. Of course we all know her kinsman the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, as a valued Member of the House.

Women2win is well known and successful and carries on the idea that Lesley Abdela started 30 years ago with the 300 Group, for which I was one of the shadow people before it was set up. There was a cruise to Denmark on which ever so many women came to learn how they could become MPs—and I hope that some of them made it. Women2win is taking a very progressive view on this. Each generation of women benefits from the efforts of those before them and faces the new challenges that continue to arise.

I intend to remind some of the Members of the House of a few of the achievements of women here, and also of the support that these women have given and continue to give to others. Women could not become Members of this House until after the Life Peerages Act 1958. Harold Macmillan created four women peers in that year: Lady Elliot, aunt of the noble Lord, Lord Crathorne; Lady Ravensdale and Lady Swanborough, whom I never knew; and Lady Wootton, who is always listed as the first woman life Peer. She was probably the first to take her seat. She and Lady Elliot were still active Members of the House when I was introduced, and very forceful characters they were too.

Other notable people included Lady Hornsby-Smith, who wrote to every newspaper that referred to Peeresses and blew their heads off, saying that we were women Peers; and Lady Vickers—1974, of the blue rinse—who told us that trousers were only acceptable on Fridays, as that was considered a day when you could go to the country. Lady Wootton sat regularly on the Woolsack until about the age of 90 and died in 1988. The present longest-serving Member of this House is the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, who took his seat in 1945. Women, of course, were not allowed then. The longest-serving woman Peer, since 1970, is the noble Baroness, Lady Masham. The noble Baroness, Lady Sharples, was given her peerage in 1972, and the noble Baroness, Lady Falkender, in 1974.

Some women Peers have faced great personal tragedies, such as the assassination of their husbands in the cases of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharples, Lady Airey of Abingdon and Lady Ewart-Biggs; and recently, there was the very tragic killing of the husband of the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove.

In 1981, I was in a list of 15 with four women; Lady Ewart-Biggs, Lady Lane-Fox and the noble Baroness, Lady Platt of Writtle, were the other three. Lady Lane-Fox has a special respiratory unit named after her at St Thomas' Hospital. She had not been expected to live from the age of five, but she was one of the first Peers to use an electric buggy in the House. I think that she may have had polio, and she had severe breathing problems. She made a great contribution to the Lords and society.

Beryl, the noble Baroness, Lady Platt, was an aeronautical engineer, and hugely successful in helping women into science and engineering. She was also chairman of the Equal Opportunities Commission. I have been assured that I can have an extra second or two because I was congratulating a maiden speaker. The 1981 list was published in April and was the first political list for many years. I was described in the press as “the most unlikely Peer”, and a more sensational newspaper headed the piece: “Fair Dinkum Dame Edna's made it!”.

It is only thanks to your Lordships passing the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010, on the last day of the last Parliament, that I am still in this place, as faulty legislation in 2006 failed to confirm the right of members of the Commonwealth to sit in the House of Lords. I am most grateful for the support from all sides of the House, and I particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Bach, who I see is in his place.

We have had many remarkable women Members, so many of whom have made interesting and unique contributions. Dora Gaitskell always sat with a hat on, and no matter how often people suggested that she take it off, she would just pull it tighter on her head. Lady Castle refused to wear her tricorn hat for her introduction, and of course no one wears a hat for introduction now.

There have been women Leaders of the House of Lords—first Lady Young, and four more since: the noble Baronesses, Lady Jay, Lady Amos and Lady Ashton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, who is in the Chamber today. The first woman Chief Whip, for Labour, was Lady Llewelyn-Davies, and since then we have had the noble Baronesses, Lady Royall and Lady Anelay. I know that there is no time to say more now. However, we have set a great example. We continue to work for, and hope to benefit, the women of the next generation. We should all bear that in mind and continue this work.