Investigatory Powers (Amendment) Bill [HL]

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 11th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for an admirably comprehensive response. That was what we were looking for—perhaps not everyone, but certainly our Front Benches. There is a lot to get our heads around, so we will take this away and look into it.

There are a number of observations I would make. First, the Minister emphasised co-operation, collaboration and discussion. Of course, the legislation does not look like that, so it would help if the Government could find some confidence-boosting measures, be they from the code or the draft annexe, or something that enables the Government to signal their continued intention to co-operate and collaborate.

The Minister talked about an interconnected data world—that is exactly the point the operators are making. Because of that interconnection, a hiatus in delivering a service in the UK could also be a hiatus in delivering that service to the rest of the world, given that everyone is using the same service. That is one of the points that was not picked up by the Minister at the time. That interconnectedness is the very issue that some operators have: if they are prevented from doing it in one place, how do they do it elsewhere?

The issue of corporate entities is interesting. What the Minister described was something I used to call “corporate veil”, and I am interested to know how robust that is in corporate law. With corporate veil, it became very difficult, even at court level in the United States, to break down the corporate entities and their interconnections. For no other reason than making an observation, I am interested to see how that works. I certainly see why the Government are putting it forward in their legislation.

There is a lot for us to digest, which we certainly will, between now and the next stage; it gives us something to get our teeth into over Christmas. That said, I beg to withdraw my proposal that Clause 16 stands part of the Bill.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

I am afraid that the noble Lord is not in a position to do that. This is a clause; one votes for it or against it.

Clause 16 agreed.

Rwanda: Asylum Arrangements Treaty

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Tuesday 21st November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, as I say, I cannot comment on the specifics at the moment. However, I reiterate the Prime Minister’s commitment to stopping the boats and removing barriers if necessary. The detail and implications of doing so will be considered carefully; of course, that will take the GFA into account.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

My Lords, that concludes Oral Questions for today. We now come to some formal business, so if any noble Lord would like to leave, now is the time to do it.

Police: Employment and Discipline

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Monday 9th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, police officers hold a unique position in society and are therefore protected by a unique set of terms and conditions, which are enshrined in legislation. Regulations are updated regularly following consultation with policing stakeholders, and the Government have no current plans to revise that approach. In October, the Government announced a review into police officer dismissals, ensuring that the system is fair and effective at removing those who are not fit to serve.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

My Lords, we have a virtual contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, following Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Mark Rowley’s powerful expression of concerns over the handling of police misconduct allegations and the need to sack the worst offenders—as well as similar comments from the formidable noble Baroness, Lady Casey, on the need for early dismissals, and, more recently, the shocking revelations from the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, about the six-stage, year-long police officer dismissal process—can the Minister explain why the whole police disciplinary procedure cannot be reviewed in line with those of other professions? With the worst cases, dismissal should come first. More widely, there should be a speedier appeal procedure.

Information Commissioner’s Office Report

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Monday 11th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

One thing I feel a bit disappointed about is that the report does not reflect some of the powers that I know the noble Baroness was instrumental in bringing forward within the PCSC Act. They will both help to protect privacy and, I hope, improve consistency across the piece.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, no one is more concerned than I am that people who have been the victims of rape should be dealt with sensitively and properly, but could I put a point which may not prove popular here? Surely, there is always the possibility in the system that someone might make a malicious charge. It is therefore important to have sufficient evidence and if all, or a lot, of that evidence is closed off it could again cause problems and injustice for somebody else.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I totally agree with my noble friend and refer her to the comments I made earlier. Nevertheless, it is also important in that whole balancing act that people do not feel they have to hand over their mobile phones or that their prosecution will not go forward if they do not.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 26th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick]

Leave out from “House” to end and insert “do insist on its Amendment 80, do insist on its disagreement with the Commons in their Amendments 80A, 80B, 80C, 80D, 80E, 80F and 80H to the words restored to the Bill by their disagreement with that Amendment, do insist on its Amendment 80J instead of the words left out of the Bill by that Amendment and do disagree with the Commons in their Amendment 80K to the words restored to the Bill by their disagreement with Lords Amendment 80.”

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

I should inform the House that if Motion B1 is agreed to, I will not be able to call Motion B2 for reasons of pre-emption.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

I wish to test the opinion of the House.

Metropolitan Police: Strip-search of Schoolgirl

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The noble Baroness will have heard me talk about some of the measures that are already in schools and public institutions to safeguard children. Safeguarding children should be at the centre of what we do as public servants. There are clear guidelines around safeguarding and the type of thing we were talking about this week in relation to child Q. Strip-searching is probably one of the most intrusive things that one could ever do to a child.

I am going to beg the indulgence of the House and ask whether the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, might be allowed to come in.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

I am sorry, but the time is up. I will allow a short interval for Peers who do not wish to take part in the next business to leave the Chamber.

Nationality and Borders Bill

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Report stage
Wednesday 2nd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)]

Having heard the response of the noble Baroness, I would ask that she might indicate whether she would be happy to meet with me to discuss the delay in the operation of this, because I understood from what she said that Covid had got in the way of perfecting this emergency visa arrangement with the UNHCR. I would like to know how expeditious that can be, and it may be by sitting with the noble Baroness and having a conversation we can resolve that. So I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

I am sorry, but the noble Baroness has spoken to the amendment. I must now put the Question.

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)]

I was just asking for an indication from the Minister; I am with withdrawing my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

That is correct. It is now in the hands of the noble Baroness: does she wish to seek leave to withdraw?

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)]

I seek leave to withdraw.

Nationality and Borders Bill

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Report stage
Wednesday 2nd March 2022 Lords Chamber

55: Clause 39, page 40, leave out lines 5 to 9
Member’s explanatory statement
This would prevent ‘arrival’ in the UK being an offence, rather than ‘entry’ into the UK.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

If Amendment 55 is agreed, I cannot call Amendment 56 by reason of pre-emption.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I will be brief, because we had a long debate on this issue in Committee. It is, however, an issue that goes to the heart of the Bill—changing the definition of the offence to one of arrival rather than entry. I am, therefore, very pleased to move Amendment 55 and to speak to Amendment 58 in my name and those of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, and my noble friend Lord Blunkett. This is a fundamental change to immigration law that many of us are worried will criminalise asylum, full stop. One can only imagine what effect a similar law would have in Poland now, with people fleeing across the border. No doubt the Minister will say that it does not apply in those circumstances, and so on. The fact is, however, that the Bill changes the offence from entering to arriving, which raises serious issues and has serious consequences for us all.

For example, aside from those seeking asylum, would this provision apply to a person who arrives in the UK with the wrong paperwork? They have arrived and they have broken the rules: would that be a criminal offence under the Bill? The Home Secretary has presided over this situation for a number of days but has just recently announced that people can safely bring elderly relatives and parents from Ukraine into this country. On the basis of this clause, would those elderly parents be considered criminals if they arrived here without the right paperwork? The Government’s proposed legislative changes have real consequences for real people, as highlighted by the recent horrific events in Ukraine.

This clause should be removed from the Bill on both principled and practical grounds. I have guidance that the CPS has announced, in consultation with the National Crime Agency, the Home Office and the police, which says that those seeking asylum should not be prosecuted under existing offences of entering the UK illegally. That is in recognition of the fact that it is not in the public interest, and that asylum seekers

“often have no choice in how they travel and face exploitation by organised crime groups”.

That is in a press statement from the CPS. The Government are asking us to widen the offence to include arrival when the CPS and Border Force do not believe that the existing offence should even be used. Similarly, the Government’s answer has been that the powers will be used in only exceptional and limited circumstances, such as where a person has breached a deportation order—in which case, we should pass a power for those circumstances.

It is not right to ask the House to pass these powers —on the basis that the Government’s own agencies say that they will not use them—or to criminalise a person who arrives in the UK to ask for asylum from war and persecution. It is late, but this change in the offence will have serious consequences for the way our asylum and refugee system works. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

As Amendment 55 has been agreed, I cannot call Amendment 56 by reason of pre-emption.

Amendments 57 and 58 not moved.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 24th November 2021 Lords Chamber

Clause 57 agreed.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

The question is that Clause 58 stand part of the Bill.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

That is in the other group, is it not?

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

No. It is a clause stand part. I paused slightly, but if nobody wishes to speak to it—

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

Is the Clause 58 stand part debate not in the next group?

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

Clause 58 stands on its own to be either agreed or not agreed. I think perhaps the noble Lord wishes to speak to an amendment. No?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thought they were all grouped together.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

Okay, but I think I need to put Clause 58 to the Committee now. The question is—

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I am sorry. On the Order Paper, it looks as though Clause 58 stand part is the lead amendment. Then there is a series of other amendments and clauses with it.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

Yes, but I must put the question first. The question is that Clause 58 stand part of the Bill.

Debate on whether Clause 58 should stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

May I speak now? I apologise. I did not mean to be rude.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

I did actually pause originally, but nobody spoke.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I am not used to standing up and speaking. If I was in the other place, I would have shouted out.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

Yes, but we do not shout here.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

Clearly. That is the problem. No, I am glad that we do not. It is sometimes a bit off-putting when there is a nobody shouting at me when I speak, but there we go.

The serious point I want to make is this. Obviously, we have come to Clauses 58 and 59, which relate to various changes to the law with respect to demonstrations outside Parliament. I want to make a general point, because I have not done that already. Some really fascinating points have been made about public protests: the right to protest and the need to balance that with people’s right to be able to go about their lawful business. Clause 58, headed “Obstruction of vehicular access to Parliament”, extends the area, while Clause 59 is headed “Power to specify other areas as controlled areas” and Clause 60 is headed “Intentionally or recklessly causing public nuisance”.

On Clauses 58 and 59, I think it was my noble friend Lord Dubs who made the point that many of us, including me, may well have not been able to protest if this law had been there. I am old enough to remember coming here, during a formative time for me as a local councillor in Cotgrave, which was a Nottinghamshire pit village, to demonstrate about pit closures, both in the mid-1980s, in and around the miners’ strike, and at the beginning of the 1990s, when the pit closure programme happened.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I do not know whether it is for me to move the first amendment in the group.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

No.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Lords Hansard - part two & Committee stage
Wednesday 17th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

In calling Amendment 245, I must point out that, if it is accepted, I cannot call Amendment 245A by reason of pre-emption.

Amendment 245

Moved by