Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Debate between Baroness Finn and Baroness Kramer

Report stage
Wednesday 15th October 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I have tabled Amendments 1 and 20 in this group to raise again the issue of whistleblowing. Sadly, I do not think it is necessary to repeat in any detail why the existing whistleblowing framework is completely inadequate. We have to look only at the scandals of the Post Office, contaminated blood, Letby, the Hillsborough cover-up, the fake costings for HS2, the mis-selling of PPI, mini-bonds and now car finance. Those are just a few of the very real outrages and tragedies that could have been nipped in the bud if we had had a system that, in actuality and effectively, protected whistleblowers who spoke out and ensured the investigation of their disclosures. Most importantly, the victims of these many scandals would have been spared, but also the taxpayer would have been protected from huge compensation payouts.

I believe strongly that the Public Sector Fraud Authority, sitting as it does under the Cabinet Office and with its investigative powers, is very well placed to be the hub of a proper framework—I would call it an office of the whistleblower, but that is not a precious issue—and at least to act as a hub for whistleblowing protection and investigation across the whole of the public sector. It could provide proper guidance to government departments and agencies, set standards for proper whistleblowing protection and redress, ensure investigation when appropriate, and provide the consistency, clarity and ease of use that are essential to effectiveness.

I realise that the amendments I have tabled are inadequate to this task, and what I seek from the Government is a conclusion that there is real progress in this direction. The Government have increasingly recognised the importance of the issue, and the Minister herself—I have to give her real credit—has commendably talked about the importance of whistleblowing. Collectively, the House has made progress in the Employment Rights Bill on limiting the abuse of non-disclosure agreements and in the Armed Forces Commissioner Act in developing a whistleblowing framework for the commissioner which will possibly extend to all of defence.

In the context of fraud and whistleblowing, we currently await the second part of the Fisher review of disclosure and this Bill contains provisions for an independent review of the Minister’s functions, so there are tools available to the Government. For this Government, as for any other, there is always the risk that, without change, new scandals will occur and those would then be laid directly at their door. Nobody wants that. This is an area where all parties should be co-operating and not competing. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s reply and hope to conclude that progress is seriously being made.

[Baroness Finn (Con)]

My Lords, I begin by thanking both Ministers opposite, and noble Lords from across the House, for their engagement with us on the substance of this Bill since we entered Committee. We have had some very valuable discussions and I welcome that the Government have approached this with a view to compromise and listening to noble Lords from across the House on the Bill. I hope we can conclude Report in the same spirit and I look forward to the discussions we shall have in these sessions.

We on these Benches welcome that we are starting Report by discussing an important issue, and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, for bringing forward these two amendments. Both amendments speak to a common principle that individuals who come forward with evidence of wrongdoing should be able to do so safely, confidently and with the assurance that their actions will lead to meaningful action rather than personal detriment.

The decision to do the right thing and report wrongdoing is far from an easy one for anyone to make. To come forward with evidence of fraud is often to put oneself at considerable risk of losing employment, damaging one’s reputation or straining relationships. If we expect people to do the right thing then it is incumbent on us to ensure that the system does right by them in return. Whistleblowers are very often the first line of defence against fraud. They can identify irregularities and provide information that would otherwise remain hidden—information that the Public Sector Fraud Authority will need in order to act swiftly and effectively. That is why it is so important that individuals know that they will be listened to, supported and protected. Only then will they feel able to come forward and only then will we be able to tackle fraud before it escalates.

In addition to the channels set out in Amendment 1, this principle links directly to the second amendment before us, Amendment 20, which proposes the establishment of an office of the whistleblower for public sector fraud. The purpose of such an office would be to oversee and safeguard the process of whistleblowing, to ensure that concerns are acted on and that those who raise them are not left exposed or ignored. We understand that the noble Baroness has likely brought this proposal to emphasise the importance of the issue rather than to suggest this particular structure as the final answer. We shall, of course, be very interested to hear how the Minister will meet the challenge set on this question.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, set out, whistleblowers can operate effectively only when they know that their efforts will not be in vain, that the authorities will respond and that the risks they take will not go unacknowledged. In the specific context of this Bill, that raises a very practical question that relates to the amendment we have brought to Clause 2. If a whistleblower were to bring actionable evidence of fraud to light, would the Public Sector Fraud Authority be able to act on it directly, or would it still have to wait for a formal invitation from the relevant department or authority before beginning an investigation? Our reading of the Bill suggests the latter, and if that is the case then the system risks leaving whistleblowers stranded, even when they have provided precisely the sort of information that this legislation is intended to uncover.

Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Debate between Baroness Finn and Baroness Kramer

Committee stage
Wednesday 4th June 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness Finn (Con)]

My Lords, our amendments in this group are based on a recognition of the fact that we are granting sweeping powers to investigators in the PSFA, to be exercised in the name of the Minister. This is, again, all about proportionality.

Amendment 17 would require the Minister to set out in statutory guidance the process through which authorised investigators are appointed. In combating fraud, we must protect against the creation of opaque but powerful bodies with inadequate oversight and accountability. Justice, a cross-party law reform and human rights organisation working to strengthen the UK justice system, recognises this amendment as an effective measure that would bring much-needed clarity to the process of appointment and the standards under consideration in that process.

Amendments 18, 19 and 20 relate to property. Amendment 18 seeks to probe the Government on the sort of changes they anticipate may be deemed necessary by the courts in relation to seized property. Before we vote to endorse this part of the Bill, I hope that the Government will take this opportunity to provide greater clarity on how they expect that the powers provided for under this part will be exercised, which is a particularly important point of clarification given that we are talking about property seized by the state.

Amendments 19 and 20 combined would prolong the period of time that must pass before an order to dispose of or destroy the seized property can be enacted. The seizure and destruction of personal property is a substantial power, and we must balance the practical consideration of holding seized property with a view to protect the rights of the individual to property which is theirs and which they have a right to recover. We believe that extending this period from six months to one year is a proportionate measure that would balance the practicalities of the process with the rights of the citizen.

Amendment 21 relates to oversight of the exercise of powers granted to the Cabinet Office under the provisions in this clause. If the Government deem it necessary to grant powers of this scale to the Cabinet Office in order to combat fraud, this must come with the acceptance that proper oversight and review of how those powers are used is a concurrent responsibility. This should not be left to the discretion of the Minister and ensuring that oversight is properly exercised from day one is a vital change.

Amendment 22 is an important measure designed, again, to ensure that sensitive information can be disclosed only to relevant persons. Although I am sure that this is simply an oversight in how the Government have drafted the Bill, clarifying the persons to whom information can be disclosed is an important safeguarding measure that would inspire confidence in investigations and ensure that confidence in the relationship between the IOPC and the PSFA is strong from day one. I hope that the Government and noble Lords will recognise this as a sensible improvement, which seeks to facilitate the role of the IOPC in the way that the Government have outlined.

The amendments in this group are rooted in a single, guiding principle: the exercise of significant powers by the state must always be matched by strong safeguards, transparency and oversight. We recognise the necessity of equipping investigators with the tools to combat fraud, but we must not do so at the expense of proportionality or the rights of the individual.

From the appointment of authorised investigators to the seizure and potential destruction of personal property, these powers touch on serious questions of liberty, accountability and trust in our institutions. Our amendments seek to ensure that powers are not only effective but clearly defined, properly scrutinised and subject to checks that protect both the public interest and individual rights. In strengthening the role of oversight, clarifying the limits on data sharing and demanding clear standards in the appointment and exercise of authority, these are far from wrecking amendments; they are constructive and measured. They reflect the careful, balanced approach we must take when legislating in areas where the state touches most directly on the lives and property of citizens. I hope the Government will engage seriously with these proposals and that noble Lords across the House will support them. I beg to move.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I will be brief. The Minister will be aware that false bailiffs knocking at your door are a major scam, and the PSFA clearly would not intend or hope to be a source of opportunity for people pursuing a scam in claiming to be part of its activities.

Has the Minister had the opportunity to talk to people such as those from StepChange to try to get a feel for how to deal with people who are vulnerable from whom they need to collect property or recover items? Has that charity been involved in shaping the framework for this particular set of issues?