Protest Measures

Baroness Doocey Excerpts

Tuesday 13th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for this debate on last week’s Government Statement on protest measures. It is important to start my comments on such a Statement by thanking the police for all the work they are doing to maintain public order across the country. We know that many officers are having to give up rest days to police protests, and those demands are growing. Can the Minister start by outlining how resources are being allocated to meet that demand and what the impact has been on neighbourhood policing? Protest is a fundamental freedom in a democracy, and that right must be protected. If that freedom is abused and used to intimidate, harass or harm others, safeguards are clearly needed.

This is yet another suite of measures to tackle issues arising at protests. Can the Minister confirm that all these additional measures have been requested by the police across the UK as well as in London, and that they will be included in the Criminal Justice Bill to allow proper scrutiny of the accompanying guidelines?

On the issue of face coverings and the power to arrest those seeking to conceal their identity, is this an automatic offence decided by an individual officer, or is it triggered by a set of circumstances then to be authorised by a senior officer? We all understand that there is legitimate concern about the use of face coverings to conceal identity, but what about Chinese dissidents protesting outside the Chinese Embassy, or Iranian dissidents demonstrating outside the Iranian Embassy? Will they still be able to cover their faces, which they may well wish to do to protect families at home from intimidation or worse? We have a proud tradition of giving safe haven to dissidents opposing oppressive regimes.

We support the measures relating to flares and fireworks, which have been used to fuel public disorder and intimidate the police. Can the Minister say how they will be enforced in protests, which sometimes involve thousands? Our war memorials rightly hold a special place in the collective affection and respect of our nation. They remember those who made the ultimate sacrifice to protect the very freedoms which a very small number of people seek to desecrate. This has sparked understandable outrage across the country, including from me personally. My uncle, whom I am named after, was killed on D-day. His name is proudly remembered on a war memorial near his home village of Cheldon in Devon, close to both the town of Chulmleigh and the former constituency of the noble Lord, Lord Swire. To think of this and other war memorials being under threat or defaced is unthinkable. Can the Minister outline how the new measure in the forthcoming Bill is expected to work in practice?

Also raised was the issue of the definition of “hateful extremism”. The Government are looking at this, and work is ongoing. Can the Minister update us on what progress has been made, and when can we expect a Statement? The police of course need the necessary laws to police protests and, importantly, the confidence to use them. The Minister in the other place raised the issue of the proscription of Hizb ut-Tahrir. Are other groups under consideration for proscription, and have the Government assessed their involvement in any of the protests that we have seen? What action, if any, are the Government seeking to take?

Above all, in our proud democracy there is the right to peacefully protest. That is a fundamental freedom in our country of which we all are proud. It must not be abused but it must not be curbed unnecessarily either. The right balance must be struck between safeguarding that right to protest and the important duty to safeguard the public.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, I appreciate that the Government are trying to strike a balance among competing priorities—maintaining the right to peaceful protest, restraining incitement to racial and religious hatred, and keeping the country moving, free from disruptive events. It is right that police use all available powers to arrest those who go beyond what is acceptable for a peaceful protest, not least when their actions are motivated by hate. Protest should not be used as a shield to allow anti-Semitism, Islamophobia or any other type of hatred to fester with impunity.

However, we must ensure that the tactics employed by a minority do not undermine the ability of others to protest peacefully. I have a number of concerns, and it would be helpful if the Minister could address them when he responds. The provisions announced to prevent the use of facial coverings plainly bear a relationship to the increased use of facial recognition technology in policing. The Policing Minister is on record as saying that he is already encouraging police forces to search all available databases, including the passport database, to identify people using facial recognition technology for crime generally.

Clause 27 of the Criminal Justice Bill creates a very wide power to access driver licence records for this purpose, but there has been little public debate on this or on the parameters of the accelerated use of such technology. Given the potential freedoms that this could infringe, is a legal protest the correct context for technology to be used? Should the faces of people engaged in lawful and peaceful protest systematically be recorded and added to databases? Would there be a temptation to create lists of people who attend such protests, with the justification that these are people who are not in favour of the status quo and might, at some future date, cause trouble?

Police already collect information on political activists. However, attending a protest should not qualify as criminal activism. The fact that facial recognition is being introduced into policing without the debate or openness that is needed is a cause for concern. Since the Government are proposing amendments to the Criminal Justice Bill, will the Minister commit to setting out in that Bill the circumstances in which this technology should be used? Will he commit specifically to addressing the many concerns that the systems can be particularly bad at recognising black female faces? This is powerful technology, but it is not infallible by any means.

As things stand, its use enjoys public support, but that support may diminish if it is deployed disproportionately, causing problems for minority groups or being used for minor offences. It is surely in the interests of all of us who want to continue to see policing by consent for this to be avoided.

Finally, I want to raise the question of police resources. The Home Affairs Committee recently expressed concern about the effect that the increasing number of protests is having on the number of rest days being cancelled for police officers. Last year the Metropolitan Police had to cancel 4,000 rest days to police protests at a cost of nearly £19 million. Can the Minister say what the Home Office is doing to ensure that police forces are reimbursed for the cost of these cancelled days? When I was a member of the Metropolitan Police Authority, we had a dreadful job trying to get the money back from the Home Office. I suspect that things have not changed very much. What is being done to support officers’ well-being when large numbers of rest days have to be cancelled?

Will police officers receive the necessary resources and training to identify and prevent hate crimes, including threats and incitements to violence on social media? According to the official figures, between October and December last year there were more than 1,000 protests and vigils and 600 arrests, accounting for 26,000 police officer shifts. This issue is not going away. The duty of care that we owe police officers needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency.

These are among the issues that we on these Benches will want to raise during the passage of the Criminal Justice Bill. I look forward to the Minister giving us his early indications of his views.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank both the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, for their generally supportive remarks. Like the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, I join in congratulating, thanking and praising the police for their strenuous efforts to keep us all safe during the recent heightened protest activity.

Both noble Lords asked me about the questions raised in response to the original Statement, regarding the Home Affairs Select Committee pointing out that 4,000 rest days had been lost, coming at a cost of about £18 million or £19 million. Obviously, that is very concerning, but I have to say that the police uplift programme has helped many forces around the country significantly with their numbers. That helps to minimise the number of rest days lost. Unfortunately, the Metropolitan Police in London did not manage to fulfil its police uplift numbers, and that has financial consequences as well as a consequence for the rest of the officers employed. It is regrettable, but I am afraid it is very much for the Metropolitan Police to up its recruitment to sort out that particular problem. That is not the same as saying that we do not care about it or are not keeping a very close eye on it. We do.

I should also point out that the police have arrested more than 600 people over the course of the protests, and some 30-plus were related to Terrorism Act offences. Once again, I thank the police for their efforts.

On the question about whether these laws were requested by the police, the police have a comprehensive suite of powers to maintain public order and to keep the public safe. However, we keep their powers under constant review and, when gaps are identified, by whomever, we seek to legislate for them. I am not precisely sure how many of these powers were asked for by the police; I know that the bulk of them were, but not precisely which ones. When we come across gaps in the legislation, we seek to make these types of changes.

Those were very good questions on face coverings, particularly as regards the legitimate wearing of face coverings in protests. It is not difficult to come up with a number of scenarios that would classify themselves as legitimate. This was addressed in detail by my right honourable friend the Security Minister. The guidelines in the legislation that we are setting out will cover this, because police officers will have discretion to give an order requiring a face covering to be removed, but those commanding the policing of protests will have discretion over when they ask for that instruction to be carried out.

Under Section 60AA, the new criminal offence of concealing an identity will apply only when there is a particular authorisation on a protest, and those authorisations come only when there is a risk of serious violence or crime. Just as a reminder to the House, Section 60 offences can be ordered only by those of the rank of inspector or above and for a period of 24 hours, which is extendable for a further 24 hours. So they apply only to protests and only where an authorisation is in place. I hope that answers and assuages noble Lords’ concerns to some extent. I will come back to facial recognition towards the end of my remarks.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked me about pyrotechnics, flares and disorder. The current legislation on the use of fireworks in public places does not consistently prohibit the possession of pyrotechnic articles during a protest but limits it to specific circumstances, such as the use of fireworks in public places and possession of explosives other than for a lawful purpose. It is not already an offence to be in the possession of such articles at certain musical events and football matches, for example, but this extends it to processions and protests. The new measures do not provide police with new stop and search powers, but they do allow the police to make an arrest when an individual is holding or lighting a flare at a protest.

I associate myself with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, on war memorials. I am also delighted that this is taking place, for all sorts of reasons. I do not have a huge amount more to say on this subject; I think we have all been offended by the antics of certain protesters who have clambered all over war memorials. The Security Minister in the other place described them as

“altars of our national grief”.—[Official Report, Commons, 8/2/23; col. 379.]

That description could be extended, but it is very appropriate none the less and sums up all our feelings.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, also asked me about hateful extremism. He is quite right that there is some thinking about that at the moment. The Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities is working on a definition of extremism alongside the Attorney-General. Of course, this is an extremely complex subject and conversation, so I will update the House when I have more, but I am afraid I cannot at the moment.

The noble Lord will know what I am about to say on proscription. The Government do not comment on groups that are potentially about to be proscribed or are under consideration. This will come under the Criminal Justice Bill.

I do not think facial recognition is entirely aligned with the subject of the measures that are being taken today. However, I understand the noble Baroness’s concerns and this subject will have to be further debated. It is a philosophical discussion about freedoms, rights and proportionality, and I have no doubt that we will revisit it in due course.

These measures are proportionate and carefully thought through. We will be discussing them at greater length, and I thank noble Lords for their support.

Sir Edward Heath: Operation Conifer

Baroness Doocey Excerpts

Wednesday 17th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, I agree with all those who have said how regrettable it is that anyone should have their name dragged through the mud, particularly when they are not here to defend themselves. I commend the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, and other colleagues, for their tenacity and resolve in pursuing this matter. While Sir Edward Heath has not been proven guilty of anything at all, his life’s work and his memory are tainted by these lingering allegations. Clearly, that is very unsatisfactory.

I agree with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Waldegrave, that we owe our public servants a duty of care. However, the case for a further inquiry is not predicated on the fact that Sir Edward is a former Prime Minister. If there had been a proper and robust investigation with a clear outcome, there would be no need now for raking further over the coals. But it is undeniable that very serious mistakes were made in Operation Conifer, particularly in the manner in which it was launched. It is also very clear that previous external reviews of the investigation are not seen as properly independent.

That is why, on balance, the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, is right is his calls for a further, final attempt to bring closure to this matter through an independent inquiry. In bringing one about, we must avoid the mistakes made by police in the past. Any inquiry must be effectively managed and properly resourced, and must work to a strict timetable. Additionally, it must not just be independent but must be seen to be independent. Its terms of reference should be made crystal clear at the outset and I suggest that it should be agreed on a cross-party basis involving interested Back-Benchers such as the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, as well as Front- Benchers.

In addition to looking again at the individual allegations, there are some systemic matters to address, including how investigations of high-profile figures more generally are carried out, how complainants can be given the confidence that they will be fairly treated in cases such as these and how to reinforce the presumption of innocence.

Conversely, any fresh inquiry into the Heath allegations must be mindful of the findings of the recent Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse. Its report cites past

“institutional complacency and indifference to the plight of child victims”.

IICSA found that political parties and police had “turned a blind eye” to allegations of child sexual abuse connected to Westminster, had ignored victims and showed excessive “deference” to MPs fighting to clear their names. Processes such as these should never give special pleading or special treatment to high-profile figures: it is a fundamental principle of British justice that we are all equal before the law. Allegations of sexual abuse must always be taken seriously, without exception, and all complainants must be treated with the sensitivity and respect that should be afforded them as a matter of course.

To leave the Heath allegations hanging in the air does not just affect a former Prime Minister’s reputation. More importantly, it puts the credibility and seriousness of investigations of child abuse more generally at risk—and that is surely the worst injustice of all. I too hope the Minister responds constructively to this debate. Just saying “We intend to do nothing further” will not help anyone: in my view it is the Government’s duty to put things right for all involved.

Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Codes of Practice) (Revision of Codes A, B, C, D and H and New Code I) Order 2023

Baroness Doocey Excerpts

Tuesday 12th December 2023 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Codes of Practice) (Revision of Codes A, B, C, D and H and New Code I) Order 2023 was laid before this House on 16 October 2023. This debate follows a debate that I took part in on 4 December regarding three instruments related to the National Security Act that were also laid on 16 October.

Turning to the order we are discussing today, Section 66 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, or PACE, requires the Home Secretary to issue codes of practice which govern the use of police powers, including the associated rights and safeguards for suspects and the public in England and Wales. The revised and new codes of practice before us ensure that those codes reflect the provisions of both the National Security Act 2023 and the Public Order Act 2023.

Before getting into the detail of the changes, I begin by noting that, as per Section 67(4) of PACE, two separate consultations on these changes were carried out, one in relation to each of the new Acts. These were carried out from 20 July to 31 August this year. The responses were generally positive about the changes proposed and the Government considered and incorporated suggestions for further amendments to the codes of practice following these consultations. The full details of the consultations and the Government’s response can be found on GOV.UK.

I will now briefly outline the changes made through this order—first, those to PACE Code A required as a result of amendments to stop and search powers made in the Public Order Act 2023 and the Government’s commitment to streamline stop and search guidance. Following Royal Assent of the Public Order Act 2023, PACE Code A required modifications to emphasise that the suspicion-led stop and search power introduced in Section 10 of the Public Order Act is afforded the safeguards contained in Code A. The suspicionless powers in Section 11 of the same Act authorise the police to stop and search individuals and vehicles to find objects made, adapted or intended to be used in connection with protest-related offences.

We are also changing PACE Code A to include provisions to improve community relations and data collection as currently found in the Best Use of Stop and Search Scheme guidance. Communicating the use of suspicionless search powers such as Section 60 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 and Section 11 of the Public Order Act 2023, where it is operationally beneficial to do so, and embedding a data collection requirement within the code, will build on the existing trust and confidence between the police and the community they serve.

Finally, changes proposed to PACE Code A include an updated start date for the serious violence reduction order pilot, which commenced in April this year, and an update to the ethnicity list found in Annexe B to reflect the latest categories from the 2021 census.

The amendments related to the National Security Act concern PACE Codes A, B, C, D and H, along with a new PACE Code I. In summary, the amendments to Code A are required to govern how searches of individuals subject to prevention and investigation measures under Part 2 of the Act should be carried out. These changes mirror the existing provisions in Code A for the equivalent terrorism measures.

The amendments to Code B, which covers search, seizure and retention powers, are required to account for the new search and seizure powers introduced by Schedule 2 to the National Security Act. They largely replicate those already contained in Code B for similar powers.

The changes to PACE Codes C and D make it clear that those codes do not apply to relevant provisions in the National Security Act or Schedule 3 to the Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Act 2019, such as detention provisions. This is because separate codes—including the new PACE Code I—deal with those provisions.

Both Codes A and D are also amended to exempt an officer having to give their name in the case of inquiries linked to national security. This extends the approach currently taken towards terrorism investigations and provides a crucial change to protect the identities of police officers from state actors who may seek to do them harm.

The changes to Code H implement recommendations made by the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, which the Government have accepted. They largely reflect amendments to Section 41 of the Terrorism Act 2000 made via the National Security Act—for example, making it clear that time spent in detention under certain other detention powers will be accounted for when calculating the maximum period of detention.

Finally, this order brings into operation a new PACE Code I to govern the detention, treatment and questioning of individuals arrested under Section 27 of the National Security Act. This code contains various operational procedural matters, such as how to arrange for an interpreter for the suspect, what information must be documented in the custody record, how to provide cautions and what to do with the detainee’s property upon arrest. The code is based very closely on PACE Code H, which provides guidance for the detention and treatment of persons arrested under terrorism legislation, including the updates I have just set out.

I point out that the changes to these codes are supported by Counter Terrorism Policing and the Crown Prosecution Service. The Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation has also specifically supported the changes to Code H.

I hope I have made it clear that changes made by this order are supportive of primary legislation that has already been agreed by Parliament. These revised codes promote the fundamental principles to be observed by the police and help preserve the effectiveness of, and public confidence in, the use of their legislative powers.

I very much hope noble Lords will support these revisions to the PACE codes of practice. I commend the order to the Committee, and I beg to move.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his introduction. As he said, the changes have already been debated at length and approved by Parliament, and we will not oppose them. However, I would like to make some specific points. Perhaps the Minister could address them in his summation.

We do, of course, understand the importance of ensuring, at a time of heightened and ongoing risk from hostile state actors, that the powers we give our police are a match for those people who seek to harm us. We also appreciate the need to give officers on the ground clear guidance, but there must be a balance between allowing the police to do their job and protecting civil liberties. We welcome attempts to keep the public informed about what the police are doing in relation to suspicionless stop and search. We hope this will go some way to re-establish trust among those citizens most commonly subjected to this practice, namely members of the black community.

We note concerns raised during the consultation process about when the public will be alerted to the use of suspicionless stop and search. The concern is that the term “operationally beneficial” is simply not clear enough to define when it will be in operation. Everyone recognises the importance of police operational autonomy, but can the Minister confirm that this particular concern has been taken into account?

We welcome the new data collection requirement in Code A, particularly given that the ethnicity of 20% of those subjected to stop and search in the year ending March 2022 remains unknown because it was not recorded. However, our key concern remains the extension of police powers to stop and search someone without reasonable grounds for suspicion. We have made our concerns clear that extending these powers now is fundamentally incompatible with the findings of the Casey review and the recent IOPC report, both of which found that progress in tackling racial disparity in stop and search still has a very long way to go.

In light of this, what signal are we sending to these communities in giving the police even greater leeway to carry on that practice, despite the well-documented racial bias still evident in it? Sadly, I suspect that, for many, it says that we are just not listening.

Metropolitan Police Reform

Baroness Doocey Excerpts

Monday 27th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble and learned Baroness asks me a very good question; I am afraid that I do not understand the inner workings of the secondary legislation and SI process, but I will find out.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, last month, the police watchdog published an urgent report warning of the serious risks posed to London’s most vulnerable children by the Met’s ongoing failures in child protection. This issue was first highlighted in a damning report by HMICFRS six years ago. It cannot be allowed to continue. Have the Government met the commissioner and the Mayor of London to demand action now—that is, not in a month’s time or a year’s time? This is serious and it must be sorted out now.

Electronic Travel Authorisation

Baroness Doocey Excerpts

Monday 17th July 2023 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Doocey]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the merits of their proposed Electronic Travel Authorisation as compared with the proposed European Travel Information and Authorisation Service.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Migration and Borders (Lord Murray of Blidworth) (Con)]

The United Kingdom’s electronic travel authorisation scheme, or ETA, and the EU’s European travel information and authorisation system, ETIAS, will require travellers to obtain authorisation prior to travel. In both cases, travellers must complete an online application form and receive electronic permission to travel, which is verified by carriers before boarding. The ETA scheme will collect biometrics upstream, away from the United Kingdom border. This will enable us to increase automation of passenger clearance at the UK border.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, this new system will also require all passengers transiting through UK airports to have an ETA. The EU equivalent system has no such requirement. This means that more than 20% of passengers—and that was 20 million people in 2019—who go through airports will need to pay £10 a head for an ETA, despite the fact that they will not even leave the airport. Do the Government really believe that a family of four is going to choose to pay £40 to transit through a UK airport when it can transit through an EU airport for free?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

It is the intention of the policy to apply to those transferring in British airports. This makes Britain a more secure country.

Emergency Services Mobile Communications Programme

Baroness Doocey Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I totally agree with the noble Lord’s latter point, because unless that is the case it will completely undermine what the emergency services are trying to do. I assume the new director is in place. I will double-check, but I think the answer is yes.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, I was a member of the Metropolitan Police Authority when the current Airwave radios were introduced. The whole thing was fraught with difficulty because of time delays, cost overruns, batteries that did not last long enough and a lack of bandwidth. The list just went on and on. Can the Minister reassure the House that at least some of the lessons have been learned, because we have just been told that we still have cost problems and time delays with this one, and that not all of the problems I have outlined will happen again with these radios?

Mr Mike Veale

Baroness Doocey Excerpts

Monday 18th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I do not disagree with my noble friend that sensible handling is required. That is why I made the suggestion. The Government will not intervene in a matter with PCCs. I suggested to my noble friend and perhaps also suggest to my noble friend Lord Howell that there might be a delegation from noble Lords to go and see him.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, it is unacceptable that something as serious as this has been going on for more than a year without any resolution at all, not even a day in court. I understand that the Minister cannot comment on an individual case, but can she undertake to review how the process of misconduct hearings takes place nationally? It just cannot be in the interests of justice for this situation to continue. It is not fair, either to the accused or to the accuser.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I do not disagree with the noble Baroness, but I reiterate that the legally qualified chair can, in the interests of justice, take longer than 100 days to convene the misconduct hearing. I do not want anything I say at this Dispatch Box in any way to undermine a misconduct hearing, which is why I am so cautious about the matter.

HM Passport Office: Backlogs

Baroness Doocey Excerpts

Thursday 12th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

First, I join the noble Lord in being happy about his story of the Ukrainian schoolboy standing proudly in his school uniform on Monday. I praise the noble Lord for not trying to claim it as a Labour victory; whenever these things happen, we are all happy that they turned out well.

It might be helpful to outline the context in which we find ourselves. As I said, HMPO processes 7 million passport applications in a normal year. Due to Covid, only 4 million applied in 2020 and 5 million in 2021. That means that more than 5 million people delayed applying for a British passport throughout 2020 and 2021. Therefore, the unprecedented figure of 9.5 million applications is forecast for 2022.

As I said, some of the problems with phone lines are completely unacceptable, but I think HMPO staff have performed to their best. In this context, 90% of applications being issued within six weeks, between January and March this year, is an excellent figure. In fact, over 98% were processed within a 10-week timeframe, but I am not going to stand and deny that there have been snags in the system. As I outlined, we are working very hard to resolve them.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister is aware that, far from enjoying exactly the same benefits as members of the EU, our citizens must now have three months’ validity on their passports. The Government should have been more concerned with the process of issuing passports than with what colour they are. Have there been any discussions between the Government and EU countries about relaxing the three-month rule while the UK sorts out this dreadful crisis?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I can take that point back. I may be completely wrong here but I thought the EU insisted on six months. I am glad someone is nodding, so I am not going mad: the EU insists on six months. There might be a pragmatic solution. We are probably undergoing a hump in the process and things will smooth out, particularly by engaging more staff.

Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill

Baroness Doocey Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 3rd December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, when I originally looked at this Bill and thought about it in relation to children, I felt that there might be some justification for using children as CHIS in the most exceptional circumstances. I am now doing something that is not very fashionable. I am changing my mind in the light of what I have heard in the debate so far, especially from my noble friend Lady Massey and the noble Lord, Lord Young. I now believe that there should be no circumstances in which children should be part of this process. It is wrong and cannot be justified. The highest standards of human rights would be fully met if we said that children should be totally exempt. There should never be any circumstances in which the end would justify the means. I have been persuaded by the argument. Maybe one does not often admit this publicly, but I am prepared to do so here and now.

[Baroness Doocey (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I wish to speak in favour of Amendment 52. I too support the comments made about children by previous speakers.

This amendment seeks to place in law safeguards for young people, for those who have been trafficked and for other vulnerable individuals. There is a real risk to vulnerable adults, as well as to children, because victims of modern slavery and trafficking are not always recognised as such. This amendment puts safeguards in place for them, as well as for minors.

I share the same fundamental concern as the noble Lord, Lord Dubs. Children should not be placed in harm’s way by the state or in the pursuit of any other alleged greater good. It is the job of the state to protect children, not to deploy them as spies.

I want to address directly the argument made on this point by the Minister at Second Reading. She said that, in practice, juveniles are not asked to participate in criminality in which they are not already involved. Surely the fact that children are already involved in crime does not make them any less worthy of protection. We like to say that with rights come responsibilities, but that maxim misunderstands rights. Rights are absolute and children should expect the absolute right to basic protection from this country. That protection should not be contingent on some invented responsibility to help the police by acting as a spy. Children seldom choose to become involved in gangs. Many are vulnerable. Many have been abused. Some are victims of trafficking. Others have been appallingly neglected both by their families and then by the state. It is not right to view them as having chosen a lifestyle of criminality and thereby complicit in their own fate.

Just as the Modern Slavery Act acknowledges that children cannot consent to their own slavery, we should recognise in the Bill that children do not put themselves into these dangerous situations. They should not be asked to take advantage of danger in the interests of police investigations. These young people are at very high risk of long-term physical and emotional harm from the experiences they have already had. Being designated a CHIS puts them at hugely increased risk. I find it indefensible that 16 and 17 year-olds can be brought into this highly dangerous territory of spying for the state with no appropriate adult to help and support them. The age of majority in this country is 18: 16 and 17 year-olds are children and these particular 16 and 17 year-olds are very vulnerable children. It is completely unacceptable for them to be co-opted by the police for spying without the same representation that they would enjoy if they were arrested for some minor offence, such as theft.

The police do a very difficult job. We are all in their debt for protecting us as individuals and as a society. The need to get a result can sometimes blur boundaries in the pursuit of solving a crime or bringing a prosecution. The genre of police drama would scarcely be so rich without the reality that rules can sometimes be bent and occasionally broken.

Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill

Baroness Doocey Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 11th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Doocey (LD) [V]]

My Lords, there are times when breaches of the law by agents of the state should be allowed, in order to avoid some horrific harm to society as a whole, but there are some lines which should never be crossed. One such line is the assumption that children, who are often extremely vulnerable, can be used as agents of the state. Children are not pawns on a chessboard to be sacrificed for the greater good of some checkmate against organised criminals.

This country has a shameful record on vulnerable children. I witnessed this at first hand when I spent eight years as a member of the Metropolitan Police Authority. It is shameful that, in 2020, children in care are six times more likely to be sexually exploited, and 12 times more likely to be victims of trafficking, than other children. During the passage of the Modern Slavery Act, I sought a separate section specifically to protect children. The committee on the draft Bill had recommended a specific offence that it be illegal to exploit a child, or to obtain benefit from the use of a child for the purpose of exploitation. For reasons which I still fail to comprehend, the Government disagreed. I will, therefore, be seeking to secure specific protections for children on the face of the Bill. As Just for Kids Law, an excellent charity, puts it,

“it is deeply worrying that children are being asked to participate in covert activity associated with serious criminals without fully considering their welfare and best interests. Not only are the authorities using children—some of them under the age of 16—in covert investigations, but oversight in this area is so inadequate that the government isn’t even aware how many children are affected.”

That is, frankly, shocking.

There are girls left in gangs to act as informants who could be subject to all sorts of abuse, and boys left in drug rings who may be compelled to commit crimes which will haunt them for years to come, if not for the rest of their lives. There is also the temptation for police to avoid doing a trafficking referral if they think that the child is of more use as an informant in a gang or extremist environment. The Government say that children are used only if they are already involved in criminal activity. However, this is a classic two-wrongs-make-a-right argument and completely misses the point that many of these children have not chosen a lifestyle of criminality but have been trafficked into the gangs or will have found security in a gang that their home situation does not provide.

The fact that children are already involved in criminal activity is not, and never can be, an excuse for putting them in a position where they may be the victims of violence or asked to engage in it. This House should make that clear. In addition, where children have any involvement in undercover operations, they must benefit from representation by an appropriate adult, right up to the age of 18. It is quite incomprehensible that a 16 or 17 year-old is entitled to have an appropriate adult with them if they are arrested for some relatively minor crime, but not entitled to the same support if they are helping the state in an investigation. This should be guaranteed.

The way we treat children defines us as a society. This Bill can and must be amended to give them better protection.