Mental Health Bill [HL]

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Murphy (CB)]

Yes, I would say that indeed it was. That year when they gave an extra £400,000 to spreading psychotherapy around was the same time when we were having incredible crises in acute hospital services, and I thought that it was not justified. But the mental health crisis that we have in this country is the same one that they were complaining about in 1860, 1870 and 1880; every generation believes that it is worse off than the generation before, but there is not much evidence that it is.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, having just heard the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, I shall be extremely cautious about what I look at on the internet. I want to say just two or three words. I have experience from my own family and from my friends of two sets of drugs—anti-depressants and Ritalin—and they really should be used a great deal more cautiously.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, now is not the time to have the extensive debate that the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, has opened up. I said right at the outset that we are talking about legislation that comes into play when a person is going to be detained because they are very ill and at risk of harming themselves or somebody else. But I would say to the noble Baroness that the Wessely review looked at this issue at considerable length, and I was among the Peers who listened to Sir Simon Wessely when he came to present his findings. One thing that has stuck with me is the person who gave evidence to his review who said: “I was very ill. I had to have treatment. Why did it have to feel so awful?”—I am using parliamentary language there. Does the noble Baroness accept that mental health legislation debates such as this might be limited, but they do an important thing in sometimes challenging the prevailing orthodoxy among the professions, and they are an occasion where the experience of patients, which have built up over many years, gets a chance to change practice? That is why we should look at all the amendments in this group, and in particular those of the noble Earl, Lord Howe.

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[Lord Meston (CB)]

I am tempted to say that I really do not know. That was a faster ball than I expected to receive. I think the answer is that the case law would be consistently applied, even as it stands now, but would undoubtedly be aided by a statutory test. Whether it would apply in cases such as that which the noble Lord just mentioned, I do not know. The purpose of the amendment is to provide a test for decisions that have to be made consequential upon this legislation, not other situations.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I entirely agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Meston, just said. The two interjections were very interesting but they do not really affect the guidance. That is crucial. The question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, as to whether you can understand it but cannot make a decision, may well affect how the person applying the guidance does so. That would be one of the issues for whoever has the uncomfortable task of making the decision.

I think the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, is too cautious. If we go back to the Mental Capacity Act 2005, there is clear explanation and guidance in primary legislation as to how anyone who has to judge capacity is to do it. What we are talking about here—incompetence—is quite simply capacity. For some reason, which I find quite difficult, we seem to think that children under 16 have competence or do not, but over-16s have capacity or do not. It would have been far more sensible to use the same word for every person who will, in fact, be judged on whether they do or do not have capacity to make a decision of great importance, as it would be, in relation to mental health issues. I find it very odd.

However, and equally importantly, if it is in primary legislation for over-16s, why on earth would it be in guidance for under-16s? If it is good enough for over-16s, why is it not good enough for under-16s? The way the noble Lord, Lord Meston, has set this out seems admirable. It is very close to the Mental Capacity Act. I take and entirely agree with the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, but the Government seem to have ignored children to a very large extent, although children are a very important part of this Bill. I do not blame the Minister, because she did not draft it, but she has to bring it to us. I tabled a lot of amendments about parents and people with parental responsibility because they are largely ignored; I will speak about that later. But where we are dealing with children aged under 16, it is essential that they are treated in the same way as everybody else and that has to be in the Bill—in primary legislation.

Young people have had to deal with these issues ever since Lord Denning was presiding in the Court of Appeal in Gillick, but he did not help us at that stage as to how actually to deal with it. Like the noble Lord, Lord Meston, I have also had to make decisions as to whether under-16s were giving me advice that I thought was really worthy of listening to. Children of five can give extraordinarily good explanations, though I do not expect them to give them on mental health issues. I urge the Minister: it is crucial that everyone whose capacity is a matter at issue has it treated in exactly the same way. Therefore, to put it into guidance really will not do.

I will also speak on Amendments 55 and 56. I am very concerned about children. Bear in mind, however much we treat children aged over 16 with respect and as having the capacity to make decisions, and however much we listen to them, as we should listen to all children, there are stroppy teenagers—we all know about them—who, for one reason or another, will not do what adults tell or advise them. I am very concerned, and I am not quite sure about this because I am no expert on mental health legislation, that if a 16 year-old has the right to make advance decisions and they just say, “I do not want any injections, I do not want any pills, I absolutely refuse to have any treatment”, then unless there is an ability to override them they will have capacity and cannot be ignored. One has to view advance decisions for 16 to 18 year-olds with some degree of care. I am not saying that they should not happen, but I am not happy about them being universal and without some ability for them to be overridden.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I have put my name to Amendment 147. I find myself in agreement with much that has been said. It has been a consistent recommendation to His Majesty’s Government since the independent review that there should be a statutory test of competence or capacity for those aged under 16. Of course, that means it should be in the Bill. This has been supported by the Children’s Commissioner of late and by the Children and Young People’s Mental Health Alliance.

Therefore, I was disappointed to see the code of practice solution outlined in the Minister’s policy paper that we received yesterday. As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, outlined, in the Mental Capacity Act, which applies to over-16s, there is a functional capacity test followed by the secondary mental impairment test. I also agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, that under-16s are presumed to lack capacity, so you start from the opposite premise of the Mental Capacity Act for over-16s, who are presumed to have capacity. That puts them at an advantage: it has to be taken from them, rather than being given to under-16s.

I agree with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Meston. Great work is being done by clinicians up and down the country to apply Gillick competence tests, but throughout my time on the Joint Committee we did not seem to know whether there was any review or assessment as to how and when it is applied in hospitals and healthcare settings up and down the country. I fail to understand the Government’s reluctance to put this test in the Bill. How is such a reluctance compatible with one of the four guiding principles—to treat the person as an individual? Perhaps the Minister could outline the reasoning for this omission.

I also want to point to the problem of relying on the code of practice made under Section 118 of the Mental Health Act. On page 13 of the code of practice, there is a very clear description of the code and its legislative function:

“Whilst the whole of the Code should be followed, please note that where ‘must’ is used, it reflects legal obligations in legislation, (including other legislation such as the Human Rights Act 1998) or case law, and must be followed. Where the Code uses the term ‘should’ then departures should be documented and recorded”.


It then refers to explanatory paragraphs and continues:

“Where the Code gives guidance using the terms ‘may’, ‘can’ or ‘could’ then the guidance in the Code is to be followed wherever possible”.


In the Minister’s policy statements, there is often the use of “will”, which, as far as I understand, is a “must”. Bearing in mind what I just read, unless something is in the Bill then even putting this test into the Bill will mean that it is only, at the very best, a “should” and can be departed from. Obviously, that applies across all of the places in which the Minister relies on the defence of, “We’re going to put it in a code”. I note that it is a code that we have not seen and will be consulted on only after the passing of the legislation.

Dealing again with the amendment, it is important to determine capacity and, as Mind has said in its excellent briefing, the question of whether a person has capacity or competence to make the relevant decision is fundamental to the operation of key rights and safeguards. To build on the point from the noble Lord, Lord Meston, as I understand it the Bill contains 13 references to competence. It deals with such important matters as the appointment of their nominated person and, if you are under the age of 16, your freedom to choose someone other than the person with parental responsibility depends on your having competence. There is also the ability to refuse medication. To deal with the point made, I think, by the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, who was concerned about leakage across, this is a very particular piece of legislation with such coercive power, as I am sure he is aware, that the case for putting the test in the Bill to open up those safeguards for young people is very important.

The Government’s response to the consultation stated:

“We are committed to ensuring that children and young people benefit from the reforms we plan to introduce”.


Will the Minister therefore explain again how the lack of a statutory test is consistent with maximising that choice and autonomy?

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[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, I venture to say that all the amendments in this group approach similar issues in not dissimilar ways. The most compelling point that perhaps should be underlined in relation to them all is that implied by the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, and the noble Lord, Lord Meston: that there is no earthly reason why the law should prohibit a young person with sufficient decision-making competence recording a valid expression of their wishes and preferences around their own mental health care, and the logical consequence of that is the need for a competence test, or a capacity test for child patients.

My Amendment 56 seeks to address an issue allied to those addressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, and the noble Lord, Lord Meston. As it stands, the Bill does not permit a 16 or 17 year-old to make a valid advance decision about their mental health care. An advance decision has the same effect in practice as a capacity decision to refuse a particular treatment. It is important to understand that under the Mental Health Act, making an advance decision does not give someone an unfettered right to refuse that treatment. Treatment can still be administered notwithstanding the advance decision, albeit only if certain strict conditions are met. Nevertheless, an advance decision made by an adult patient carries a huge amount of weight, and placed within or alongside an advance choice document, which enables a patient to outline their treatment preferences, it does a great deal to ensure that the patient is placed genuinely in the driving seat when it comes to their mental health care and treatment.

Under the terms of the Bill, young persons aged 16 and 17 will be able to execute an advance choice document, but what they cannot do is to make an advance decision to sit alongside it. That means that an advance choice document that purports to include an advance decision made by an under 18 year-old is likely to carry a good deal less weight than such a document executed by an adult. My amendment invites the Government to put this right.

An associated but distinct issue arises in relation to children under the age of 16. I will not repeat the excellent arguments for a competency test put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Meston, and the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, but I agree entirely with what they have said. The point that resonates most with me in the context of a Bill that places great emphasis on patient empowerment is that in the absence of a statutory competence test to determine a child’s decision-making ability, it will, in practice, be impossible for someone under 16 to execute an advance choice document and then expect professionals to take due notice of it.

Amendment 147, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Meston, seems to me to be as good as it gets in articulating the key requirements necessary to establish decision-making competence in a child. My only hesitation about his amendment is that it invites us to place the terms of a competency test in the Bill without further ado. For a measure of this significance, I tend to feel that any final formula for a competence test merits a prior consultation exercise, and then encapsulation in regulations approved by Parliament. I fully agree with my noble friend Lady Berridge that relying on a code of practice in this context would be wholly unsatisfactory. For what it is worth, I suspect that a consultation would be likely to throw up some further considerations that would need to be factored in to the formula. That aside, I very much hope that the Minister will be receptive to the arguments she has heard. If we can deliver this added empowerment to children and, as regards advance decisions, to 16 and 17 year-olds, the prize will be very great, and I hope she agrees that the challenge is one we must address.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, if the noble Earl is suggesting that the provisions in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Meston, should go either to consultation or to further consideration, will we not end up in a situation where this Bill becomes law and nothing is done to advise anyone, on the face of the legislation, how to deal with those under 16, although it is there for those over 16? Why should, in this particular instance, those under 16 basically be discriminated against? Whether or not they have capacity is the point of the amendment.

[Earl Howe (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble and learned Baroness. I hope it was implicit in what I said that I would look to this Bill to include an order-making power that would enable regulations to be laid in due course that would cover not only 16 or 17 year-olds but also those under 16, and Parliament would then approve them. No doubt this is a matter that we can discuss further after this, but I hope that the point of principle is clear, which I fully support, that this issue needs to be sorted through this Bill.

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[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I will come back to the noble Lord on that, and I thank him for asking the question.

I was about to refer to the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler. I may not be doing so in quite the right place, so I hope she will forgive me, but I do not want to lose this point. She asked what engagement we have had with the Department for Education. Our officials have engaged with DfE officials on the development of the Bill, including on the interaction between the Bill and the Children Act, which I know is of quite a lot of interest to noble Lords. We have also discussed questions around the statutory test with both the DfE and the Ministry of Justice, given that competency tests apply in wider children’s settings than mental health. I hope that is helpful.

Amendment 136, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, would require the Government to hold a review of whether a statutory test of competence should be introduced into the Mental Health Act for under-16s within a year of the Bill being passed. While we recognise that there are competing views about Gillick competency, it is nevertheless the established framework for determining competency for children. To introduce a statutory test for under-16s only under the Mental Health Act is likely to risk undermining Gillick, which remains the accepted competence test for under-16s across all settings, including reproductive health and children’s social care, and the wider legislative framework on matters related to children.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

The trouble with Gillick is that it does not provide, for those who have to make the decision, how to do it.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I appreciate the point that the noble and learned Baroness has made. As I said, I know there are competing views about its application. I reiterate the observation that it is the current established framework, but I hear what she is saying about what she believes are the implications of that.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Actually, my feeling about the code of practice is something that I wanted to bring up, because it has come up quite a lot. The code of practice is statutory and aimed at practitioners, and it allows nuance and so on, but Gillick is in case law and it guides us throughout. The point I am trying to make is that if it is changed in respect of this Mental Health Bill then that has implications across the wider question of competency for younger people, and that is of great concern.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I apologise for interrupting the noble Baroness again, but the fact is—I speak as a former lawyer and judge who applied Gillick—it does not actually give guidance. All it says, as I understand it, is that under-16s have to be listened to. That is great, and I totally agree. What it does not do—but the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Meston, would—is set out the guidance that those who make the decisions need to have.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Obviously, I am listening closely to the noble and learned Baroness’s experience and feeling on the matter, and I will certainly be pleased to reflect on the points that she and the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, have made.

If I continue, that may be of some assistance—we will see. It is of concern to me that the possible creation of two different tests will potentially cause further confusion and uncertainty on the ground. We are therefore not in a position to welcome a statutory test of competence in the Mental Health Act.

Before I continue to Amendment 147, I will come back to the good question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, about the legal status of clinical checklists. Because they are in the Bill, they are a statutory requirement for clinicians, to be followed in respect of all patients. I hope that will be useful.

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[Baroness Browning (Con)]

My Lords, I have added my name to this amendment. I will not detain the Committee long, but I support the amendment and I want to flag the point my noble friend made about Wales and England. To my certain knowledge, when people living further north around the Shropshire border, for example, are admitted, they will almost certainly be offered placements in north Wales. It is important that there is some harmony in these regions; otherwise, it will cause additional problems. I hope my noble friend will press his amendment in due course to make sure that that harmony exists.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 61. I recognise that the purpose of the Bill is to give children and those under 16 greater rights and opportunities to be heard. I entirely agree with that; it is absolutely sensible. But there is a danger of ignoring the fact that parents are basically not considered anywhere in the Bill. They are not in the contents of the Bill or any of the schedules.

Most parents are suitable; some parents are not. It may be that my amendment should perhaps be put in slightly different way, as the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, has done. I recognise that there is a small percentage of parents who may not have total parental responsibility or, if they do have it, they are in the situation of one parent having what used to be called custody and the other having what used to be called access. For most parents, they care about their children. As far as I can see, they are completely ignored, but they do have something to contribute.

I am not suggesting for a moment that parents should make the decisions. What I am asking the Minister to do is to give them the chance to be heard; that is all I ask. They really should, throughout the Bill, be consulted where that is appropriate, but they are not put in for consultation, as far as I can see, in any part of the Bill. This is one place where that really will not do.

Speaking as a parent and grandparent, I would be extremely upset if my child was about to be detained and everybody was discussing what should happen to my child, but nobody asked me. At the moment, as far as I understand, the Government do not seem to think that parents, special guardians or anybody else who happens to have parental responsibility need to be consulted.