Planning and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Baroness Coffey

Committee stage
Wednesday 17th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Given that my noble friend Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb signed this amendment, I just briefly reinforce what the noble Baronesses have already said. The noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, made the point about laws being passed and then nothing happening. That is a problem both for industry—in this case, developers—and for local councils, which are left in a state of uncertainty, not knowing where they are going with this. People start to prepare, read up and think about it. I should perhaps declare my position as a vice-president of the Local Government Association at this point.

There is also an issue of trust with the Government—something that we discuss often in your Lordships’ House. A classic example of this is the bottle deposit scheme that we are all still waiting for after it was announced so long ago. Many people out there still believe that, when a Government announce something, it will happen—it is already on the way. Probably more people believe that, once a law is passed, that will happen. When it does not happen, there is then a real problem with trust in the Government.

I can trace my knowledge about sustainable urban drainage schemes to 2006, when the first Green was elected to Islington Council. I can remember her talking excitedly about how crucial it was to deal with local flooding issues as well as environmental issues. I had not yet learned the phrase “slow the flow”, but that is of course very much what urban drainage is about. I also recall visiting, some years ago now, Cherry Hinton Brook near Cambridge—I bring up chalk streams again, just for one final time. I talked to local people concerned about a proposed development there, what was happening with the sustainable urban drainage scheme and how it would potentially be managed. What is crucial about Schedule 3 is that it provides a framework for construction but also for oversight of management because, very often, sustainable urban drainage schemes cannot just sit there; they have to be managed throughout their lifespan for many decades. If we do not have everything set out here—the required technical analysis, the inspections and the responsibilities —as it is in Schedule 3, then we will be stuck with schemes that have been built but are not being looked after.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

My Lords, I strongly support this amendment. To lift the curtain a little bit on life in government, it is one of my disappointments that we did not get this enacted. I perhaps have to dob people in: it was the Ministry for Housing. We had finally got there with Plan for Water, where it was adopted as a policy. We managed to get it in there and we did the review—it was all beautiful. I am pleased that the Government did the standards; they published that in July. It just needs this final push. Now that Steve Reed has moved from Defra to the Ministry for Housing, I hope that he will take full advantage of being enlightened about the benefits of ensuring that we have proper connections and sustainable drainage and, candidly, that we can get on with it and the Government take advantage of this primary legislation to ensure that it happens.

Planning and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Baroness Coffey

Committee stage
Wednesday 17th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 290 in my name, which was tabled as Amendment 119 in the other place by my honourable friend Ellie Chowns. I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Russell, that the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, has clearly identified where this group has taken us, and we have heard powerful expositions from the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, and the noble Lord, Lord Gascoigne.

This amendment specifically addresses European sites, European marine sites, European offshore marine sites and Ramsar sites, so we are talking about the overall improvement test, but in a limited subset. Again, we are talking about the nature of the overall improvement test.

These sites are, of course, hugely precious and terribly important, and Ramsar sites are described as internationally important places. Amendment 290 says that the Secretary of State has to be

“satisfied that there would be no adverse effect on the integrity of the relevant site”.

That is part 1 of the test. Paragraphs (ii) and (iii) state some offsetting allowances if there is no alternative and if appropriate measures are taken, but the amendment sets a very high standard for these terribly important places, which is crucial for them.

I note that in Monday’s debate, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, talked about how, under Clause 89, Ramsar sites were previously protected by guidance rather than legislation. This is indeed legislation, but if the test is not sufficiently strong then it is not any kind of protection at all. Also on Monday, the noble Baroness said that SSSIs have protection under the Wildlife and Countryside Act. I have not had time to really absorb what this morning’s letter says. It refers to that protection, but I would be interested to hear from the Minister on how that interacts with the changes that the Government have made and how Clause 55 works.

It is worth focusing for a second on what we are talking about. When I think of Ramsar, I always think of Rutland Water. I am sure that many noble Lords have visited it and seen the amazing birds at that site—I am looking at the noble Lord, Lord Randall. I also think of the Inner Thames Marshes SSSI, which is part of the Rainham Marshes Nature Reserve. I think of that because I was there in 2018 on Hen Harrier Day, when we had the wonderful and amazing pleasure of a marsh harrier swooping over to inspect our event for defending their cousins. I can remember the sense of wonder and amazement in the crowd, many of whom were local people. It is important to stress how important those SSSIs are to nature but also to local communities. We might think, “That will always be all right. That will always be protected”, but in the 1990s, the site was a candidate location for a Universal theme park, which, happily, was not built.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

My Lords, while the top twitcher in the House of Lords is undoubtedly my noble friend Lord Randall of Uxbridge—although there may be other candidates, I am prepared to admit —I live near the Minsmere Nature Reserve, so what the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, referred to about marsh harriers is truly extraordinary. I tend to see them in close proximity to Sizewell, which shows that there is an element of how we can all try to live together in that regard.

Amendment 244 gets to the kernel of the issue that we are addressing with the overall significant improvement test; I strongly support the noble Baroness’s amendment. Other noble Lords have made important points, including those made by my noble friend Lord Gascoigne.

The Government’s amendment is very cleverly written. There was a legal case with the last Administration, where ClientEarth, Friends of the Earth and the Good Law Project managed to find that the then Government had an unlawful climate change action plan, and they had to be pushed back on that. That is the element of hope value—not in terms of land, but in hoping that the EDP is, in effect, good enough. Assuming that everything will work was not good enough in that case.

If this provision goes into primary legislation in the way it is now, without further consideration of some of the other amendments that have been tabled by noble Lords, that will give the Government, frankly, a very good “get out of jail” card, because it is primary legislation and the courts will not be able to override it on the basis of the criteria being set out today. On Report, we should come back and consider with all noble Lords who have looked at this carefully how we try to make watertight what we want to do with the significant improvement test.

I will come back to the whole debate about what a Secretary of State is in the Bill, because I have tabled an appropriate amendment, which will be considered in a later group—I think in group 19 or 20—that will be started by the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone. There is something around this whole area that we are getting into—I am not going to stray into the mitigation hierarchy—that is about the environmental principles public duty that applies to Ministers. It does not apply to arm’s-length bodies; it applies to any policy considering legislation. It applies to any strategies and to any framework. But, critically, it does not apply in itself to any planning application consideration. So that is why we need to make sure that we get this bit of the Bill right.

As far as I am aware, although on GOV.UK it says that the environmental principles policy statement was under the last Administration, it should still be in force. I would like confirmation from the Minister that that is still the case. I point out to her that if it is not in force, the Government would be acting in an unlawful way. So in consideration of this, there may be further questions coming, whether through this or other legal routes, specifically about how, in constructing Part 3 of the Bill, the environmental principles policy has been applied to achieve the particular outcome that is desired and, potentially, about other aspects of how it is complying with the Environment Act in its own right.

It is worth us having some careful consideration before the next stage on what we all want the outcome to be. I am confident that the Government want, despite a lot of the speeches and rhetoric, to make sure that we have nature thriving.

Planning and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Baroness Coffey

Committee stage
Monday 1st September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow all the noble Lords who have spoken in this group, and as has already been said, I attach my name to Amendment 87 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, and to Amendment 93.

I will seek to add to, rather than repeat, what has already been said, but I just follow the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, in addressing Amendment 88 and agree that I am also not sure about the percentages. I would particularly highlight the ancient woodland, how terribly important and terribly rare that is, and so, as per paragraph (d) in that amendment, there is no way we should be doing anything to damage ancient woodland for energy—it is such a precious resource. Noble Lords have heard me go on before about looking at the trees, but let us also see how incredibly precious the biodiversity in soil in ancient woodland is.

On Amendment 87, I think biomass is now a very dirty word, and the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, rhetorically asked, “What could possibly go wrong?”. Of course, that has already been answered with the single word, “Drax”. The energy think tank Ember said Drax is “the UK’s largest emitter” and that the power

“is more expensive than … gas, it’s more polluting than coal, and more dependent on imports than oil”.

There should be no future biomass at Drax; that is my position and the Green Party’s position. It really is a tragedy that we did not get to that point when we recently had the opportunity.

The noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, picked this point up. I signed this amendment, but I am almost tempted towards saying simply that there should be no biomass from forests, because as the noble Baroness asked, what does “waste material” really mean? We are thinking about biodiversity and about organic material that is a resource. If you leave it on the forest floor, it contributes to the generation of soil and provides habitat for a huge variety of organisms. Is that really waste at all? Is there any such thing in a forest? That really is the question. We need to be thinking about having a war on tidiness and the idea that for any sort of planting, we want these nice, neat rows with clean bare soil in between—we need to think about what kind of damage that does.

Particularly in addressing Amendment 93, I want to draw the Minister’s attention to a study that was out last year funded by the Forestry Commission. It was entitled Rapid review of evidence on biodiversity in Great Britain’s commercial forests. It found that there is in fact a huge shortage of data and information about what is happening in the biodiversity, specifically in commercial high forests. The noble Baroness, Lady Young, raised the issue of the land use strategy. How can we be making the plans within this Bill, or indeed for the land use strategy, if we do not have the data about the biodiversity, which this study, funded by the Forestry Commission, identified? I also point to another Forestry Commission study from late 2023, which warned of the risk of catastrophic ecosystem collapse in our forests. This was signed—the work of 42 experts—and pointed out all the risks that our forests face from wind, fire, pests and diseases, and it said there are already forests in continental Europe and North America where we have seen this kind of biological collapse. We need to be thinking about making sure that the Forestry Commission is given the statutory duty, which Amendment 93 would give it, to ensure that it looks after biodiversity as well as, of course, the crucial issue of the climate emergency.

It is worth repeating again that we are incredibly forest and woodland-deprived in the UK by international comparisons. We have to look after what is there for human health, for well-being, for the climate and for nature.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

My Lords, I speak particularly to the amendments that I have tabled in this group. It is fair to say that the Forestry Commission is quite an unusual organisation—it is a non-ministerial department for a start. I was the Minister and then the Secretary of State with the relationship with the Forestry Commission and my experience was that, frankly, I used to get somewhat frustrated, thinking that it should get on and plant some trees. It almost seemed very reluctant to just get on and plant trees. The reason it matters—the clue is in the name, but perhaps the organisation literally cannot see the wood for the trees—is that trying to give the extra targets is important for the Forestry Commission to make sure it is on track in doing what it is supposed to do.

One of those aims is to help achieve the 16% woodland cover target by 2050, which we are at risk of missing. The Forestry Commission should have at the forefront of its mind that its role is about trees, woodland and forests. I am conscious that the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, was concerned about single species, or perhaps only certain species being granted in commercial estates. It is vital that we have mixed forests. One of my concerns was that it seemed like, for any tree that was not a broadleaf, it was almost like it was automatically bad and we should not be touching it. Actually, we need that mix for a combination of factors. There is no question that a broadleaf tree will bring absolutely better biodiversity overall, but so do the pines and, critically, the pines will grow a lot more quickly and contribute far more quickly to issues involving climate and emissions. That is why having a combination tree estate under the UK forestry guidance really matters.

Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Baroness Coffey

Committee stage
Wednesday 11th June 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to this amendment because I was at the Cabinet table when Covid-19 hit this country. I am very conscious of the arduous activity that went on among brilliant civil servants but, of course, mistakes were made, as well as successes.

It is interesting to try to understand why the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, wants to go into this matter further, recognising that, in Parliament, there have already been several Select Committee inquiries; one was specifically done on fraud. Of course, we also have the public inquiry that is under way, to which the Government are contributing. I am trying to understand the purpose of this amendment and this extra report, recognising that the Government will in no way make any comments until the inquiry has concluded.

My understanding is that the inquiry is still going to take evidence in 2026. For what it is worth, as I am sure the Ministers here will be relieved to know, I am absolutely convinced that this Bill will become an Act of Parliament well before the end of 2025. So there is something here of an odd overlap. I understand that this will continue to be a subject of interest.

This is quite a wide ranging-element. I know that fraud happened. There is no doubt of that. However, we also averted fraud in the DWP. We managed to stop £1.6 billion going out on one particular weekend by intervening. There were plenty of attempts at fraud and, unfortunately, there were successes. Some of those people who committed that fraud are now in jail, thanks to the endeavours of the Government.

The noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, talks about resources that the country may have been deprived of when addressing the issues of Covid. I can honestly say to your Lordships that no resources were set aside at all. This is one of the reasons why there have been considerable challenges on aspects of needing to repay the debt that may have been acquired due to spectacular extra financing, whether that was through businesses or about people who had never claimed benefits in their life before, making sure that they got the money that we believe they were entitled to. That was while recognising that some of the easements initially may have been subject to some fraud, but we also made every effort to try to stop it. I have already given an example of where, in one weekend, £1.6 billion was averted.

For that purpose, the amendment genuinely is unnecessary. The statutory inquiry, I hope, will not be the longest-running statutory inquiry because that is not what the country needs to consider. It would not be the best use of government resources to initiate their own further inquiry and honour this amendment.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I am slightly torn. Yes, we have the Covid inquiry but we also have a country that faces ongoing risk. I was, entirely coincidentally, speaking this morning to someone who was expressing concern about stocks of medical supplies that the Government were holding or not holding. They are being told that the Government were waiting for the Covid inquiry to report and then would look at what might happen. I am afraid that the reality is, of course, that we do not have an influenza virus out there saying, “Just wait until the Covid inquiry has reported and then we can think about attacking Britain”. I am not sure that this is the right way forward, but we need to hear from the Government more generally—I understand that that may not be within the Minister’s portfolio—and maybe the noble Baroness could write to me at a future date. However, we need to think about being ready, in this age of shocks, for all the threats that could potentially hit us—particularly health threats. We should learn from the mistakes that were undoubtedly made under the previous Government. That is an important issue. We need to see more urgency from the Government. The answer of waiting until the Covid inquiry reports really does not hack it in this age when we are facing so many threats.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

Before the noble Baroness sits down, it is important to stress, when thinking of prevention of issues and being ready for them, that I am quite confident that the Government have continued a lot of the activity of the previous Government. I will give an example. Although it was for a short time, when I was Secretary of State for Health and Social Care we were being asked to write off hundreds of millions of pounds on Covid vaccines because we had, in effect, anticipated what could have happened. In the end, thankfully that was not needed. That is not a case of fraud, but the noble Baroness was stretching us into preparedness for the future. That is still a key module of the statutory public inquiry now under way. But it would be worth looking at some of the Select Committee investigations that happened, perhaps much more quickly, and some of the government responses that had been provided to them.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle]

I will stay sat down.

Renters’ Rights Bill

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Baroness Coffey

Monday 12th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, all the bright-eyed and bushy-tailed Members of the House who are still here at 12.47 am will note that I am not the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb. My noble friend is the Green lark, and I am the Green owl, so you get me after midnight.

I agree with the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford. The hashtag I often use is #Nowaytorunacountry. I take the systematic approach to this and suggest that your Lordships’ House urgently needs to think about a reset of our sitting hours.

I rise to move Amendment 206 in the name of my noble friend. This is a very straightforward, positive, friendly amendment aiming to assist the Government to ensure that this legislation can be enforced and can make a real difference. We know that so many renters are trapped in mouldy homes with leaking roofs and heating and hot water systems that are not working. When renters find themselves in those kinds of situations, this amendment would give them the right to pay the rent to a third-party body. My noble friend Lady Jones has suggested the new ombudsman, but we are very open to other suggestions as well. There are other ways of doing it. The amendment is written in a neutral way.

This is to deal with the situation where a landlord refuses to carry out essential repairs, yet the tenant is in a situation where they still have to keep paying for this utterly inadequate accommodation. The arrangements under this amendment would be that, if a landlord carries out the works and ameliorates the problems, the independent third-party would send them the full amount of rent due. If not, the tenant could get a full or partial refund, which they might well otherwise have to go to court to try to recover.

This is both a fair and an effective provision. It punishes the bad landlords and does not impact on the good ones. From the Government’s point of view, this is a constructive suggestion to help make sure that this legislation delivers on its stated aims. With those brief remarks, I beg to move.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

My Lords, this in effect creates a formal escrow process. One of my proudest achievements was to organise a student rent strike, admittedly some time ago, as noble Lords may recognise. At the time, the university accommodation was due to be dismantled at the end of the year and as a consequence it felt like the university was not taking various matters very seriously.

I happened not to be a paying student at the time; I was a vice-warden in a hall of residence. So I did help them, but I insisted that, if I was to help them, they would have to pay over their rent to avoid being evicted. We did that by handing the money to the student union, to effectively act in escrow. As a consequence, repairs were made and everyone ended up happy—apart from the university, which did not like my role in that at all.

The reason I tell that story is that it matters that tenants should be able to withhold cash going directly to a landlord when the landlord is, frankly, taking the mickey. Awaab’s law has already been mentioned and Clause 63, which we did not specifically address, is already extending that to the private sector, and I welcome that. We need to work out a much easier way for people to effectively deploy this escrow approach. That is why I am supporting the amendment.

It is fair to say that we need to make sure that any such processes are easy to administer. Going a little bit further, there is a regularly read out statistic that something like 15% to 20% of housing benefit—or housing support, whether as direct housing benefit or through universal credit—is thought to go to properties not deemed fit for rent. I went into a reasonable amount of detail on this with officials.

The philosophy explained to me by the Permanent Secretary and other officials was that the state thus far should not determine on behalf of the renter where they are going to live; it is an important right for the renter to make that choice—even though it felt repulsive to me that taxpayers’ money was being spent in, frankly, some pretty ropey places. From my visits to some different housing, I have to say it was quite extraordinary what was going on. Sometimes, I am afraid, the dilapidation was the consequence of the tenant not allowing repairs to be undertaken—but that is a minor aside. The point is that—whether it is private money, your own money or the state’s money going to a private landlord—it matters that we have habitable accommodation. Therefore, I strongly support the amendment from the noble Baroness.