Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Murray of Blidworth

Committee stage
Monday 12th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 9 and 13. I obviously have the greatest respect for my noble friend Lord Hailsham and the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, but let us look at the two subsections whose removal they called for at the beginning of the debate. Clause 1(4) says:

“It is recognised that … the Parliament of the United Kingdom is sovereign, and … the validity of an Act is unaffected by international law”,


and Clause 1(6) defines what the term “international law” means. There is nothing at all controversial in either of these clauses: indeed, Clause 1(4) is a classic statement of the legal position. I am afraid that I find it frankly bizarre for speeches to be made in this Committee expressing outrage that the Government have had the temerity to put them into Clause 1, as though they were dark secrets to be discussed only among lawyers in quiet corners of the Inns of Court. It is simply a frank statement and it has every place in Clause 1, where it will help the courts interpret the provisions of the Bill. Indeed, one can see that the interpretation provision at the end of the Bill refers back to Clause 1(6). For those reasons, I oppose the amendments proposed by my noble friend.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, acutely aware of the hour, I will be extremely brief and restrain myself. I offer Green support for Amendments 9, 10 and 13 and I will simply say about Amendment 9—I declare my position as co-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Hong Kong—that I invite noble Lords who are opposing these amendments to turn this around and say how we would feel when the Chinese Government say, “Well, we’re just going to ignore the Sino-British joint declaration”—as indeed the Chinese Government do and we rightly condemn that behaviour, and I hope will continue to do so.

On the second point, I commend the noble Lord, Lord German, for trying to fix the British constitution. It is a brave attempt, particularly at this hour of the evening. I was reminded, looking at his amendment, of the conclusion of the historian Peter Hennessy, the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, that we suffer from the fact that our constitution—uncodified or unwritten, whichever you prefer—relies on people being “good chaps” who will just follow along and do the right thing. We are well past the point, it is very clear, when we can rely on the Government being good chaps.

Certificate of Sponsorship: Foreign Health and Care Workers

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Murray of Blidworth

Monday 13th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

Information is certainly available on the GOV.UK website, which is signposted from the health and social care visa pages. There are also NGO bodies, including Care England and the gangmasters licensing authority, and, as the noble Baroness, Lady O’Grady, said, trade unions.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

The Minister has used the term “abuses” a number of times. The Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority, to which he has just referred, says that the health and care worker visa system is being abused by criminals, leading to a “constant stream of allegations” of fraud and modern slavery—a rather stronger term. Following on from the question about the involvement of the private sector in this, I ask: what value are all these Wild West private sector firms that are popping up adding to the system? Would it be better to do this not in a privatised way but, if we need to recruit care workers from overseas, to do so through a national workforce plan and not-for-profit agencies?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

The noble Baroness will be unsurprised to learn that I do not agree that the state is the answer in the provision of health and social care in the way that she suggests. It is entirely appropriate that private companies can recruit in the way that they presently do, that abuses are stamped out and that the Home Office uses its enforcement powers in the way that it does and will continue to do.

Migration and Economic Development Partnership

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Murray of Blidworth

Thursday 29th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I am afraid I disagree with the noble Baroness. The Home Secretary certainly has the greatest respect for the judicial system, as you would expect of a former Attorney-General. All she observed is that the legislation under which the decision was made is a topic of legitimate comment and she is entitled to reach a different view. Just because the Government appeal against a decision does not mean there is an attack on what the noble Baroness calls the rule of law. In this case, as the noble Baroness rightly observes, you win some and you lose some. The Government are confident that at the end of the day the correct decision will be reached.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the Statement refers to public opinion, and I am sure the Minister is aware that polls show that the public is very strongly of the view that the Government will never send any refugees to Rwanda. More than that, a YouGov poll found that 58% of the public believe that Ministers should arrange safe and orderly routes for refugees to be able to come to the UK. Should the Government not stop pursuing this obviously failed and unworkable policy and follow public opinion by arranging those safe and orderly routes? Is that not the way to stop the boats?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

This Government already have a very considerable number of safe and legal routes. I need only remind the noble Baroness that we have had more than half a million people arriving on safe and legal routes in the past five years. We are one of the most generous countries in the world. The noble Baroness and those who sit on the Benches opposite never adequately explain why it is said that more safe and legal routes would stop people crossing the channel. The point is, as even the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury accepted, that if you impose a cap, the people who want to come here who are not accepted via a safe and legal route will simply take to the boats. It is no answer to say that safe and legal routes will stop the dangerous channel crossings. Our imperative is to save lives.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

The noble Baroness amply demonstrates the problem identified by my noble friend a moment ago: the difficulty with removing people is the overenthusiasm of our overdefensive decision-making, which frustrates removal in all too many cases. It is not helped by the fact that regular representations have been made to prevent the deportation of foreign national offenders by Members of the opposition parties. The Bill will address the problems that surround the removal of those who should not be in our country. I should add that among that cohort of foreign national offenders are those who have entered the country illegally and those who have claimed asylum. So, the noble Baroness cannot draw a clear distinction between foreign national offenders, asylum seekers and those who enter the country illegally.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I follow on from the noble Baroness’s question. Like her, I am afraid that I have not had time to read the full report, but some reports around it stress that there are huge problems with the management and reporting of data, the Home Office’s inability to provide reliable and consistent data, and management of information of particular concern. Can the Minister say that there are plans in place in the Home Office to improve the clear problem with its procedures?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

Obviously, this is a Statement on the Rwanda judgment, but I reassure the noble Baroness that, in general principle, the Home Office is always evolving and studying its processes in relation to removals—needless to say, all the more so because preparations to operationalise the scheme in the Bill will involve consideration of these issues, as the noble Baroness would expect. I reassure her that all recommendations made by the independent inspector are taken very seriously, and the vast majority are in fact adopted by the department.

Illegal Migration Bill

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Murray of Blidworth

Committee stage
Monday 12th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I would be happy to do that too, as I said.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I asked the Minister three questions and, not to my great surprise, I did not get answers to any of them. To focus on one of them: will the famous impact assessment include consideration of the damage to UK communities—or “potential damage”, if the Minister will not acknowledge the damage—done by the failure to be able to prosecute illegal enterprises engaging in modern slavery in the UK?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I am afraid I cannot comment on what might or might not be in the impact assessment.

Illegal Migration Bill

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Murray of Blidworth

Committee stage
Wednesday 7th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord. I am sorry that I did not answer that question. The relevant provision is in Clause 13 of the Bill. We will come to discuss it in the 11th group of amendments. Perhaps that might be the moment to explore those detailed points more thoroughly.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, may I press the Minister on the issue of disabled asylum seekers? I raised this specifically in terms of what is happening in general provision, what is happening at Manston, how the Government foresee—or not—disabled asylum seekers being accommodated on barges and whether they foresee provision in the new arrangements under this Bill complying with UNHCR detention guidance for disabled asylum seekers.

Net Migration Figures

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Murray of Blidworth

Thursday 25th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I agree with some of what my noble friend has said. There is a measure of agreement across the House that the issue of salary discounts is very much in need of consideration. Of course, as the House will be aware, the Migration Advisory Committee is undertaking its review into the shortage occupation list, which I referred to a few answers ago. The Government asked the MAC to consider the 20% salary discount as part of the review when it commissioned it last year. We expect a report in the autumn, after which the Government will respond to any recommendations that it makes.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, in the migration figures out this morning, the figures for the asylum backlog—the number of people who have been waiting more than six months for an asylum decision—show that, despite the promise from the Prime Minister to eliminate much of the backlog by the end of this year, the figure has increased by 10,000. There are now more than 128,000 people waiting more than six months for an asylum decision. Would the Minister promise the House that the Prime Minister’s pledge will be met by the end of this year, given that we are now at the end of May? Surely it is time to allow those people to work—indeed, some of them could be working in the hotel to which the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, referred.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

As the noble Baroness knows, the Government are taking immediate action to eliminate the backlog of people waiting for initial asylum decisions by the end of 2023. The Home Office has already doubled the number of decision-makers and the number will double again. To further accelerate decision-making, the Home Office is driving productivity improvements by simplifying and modernising the system. We have doubled the number of decision-makers in 2021-22, as I said, and we will continue to do so.

Illegal Migration Bill

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Murray of Blidworth

Committee stage
Wednesday 24th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

The Minister, not to my surprise, did not address my question about what happens after the election. I will phrase the question another way. In your Lordships’ House, we often ask about “must” and “may” provisions. Rather than a duty to remove, surely the Government could make it that the Secretary of State “may” remove. That would allow this Government to act as they wish but would not attempt to tie the hands of any future Government.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I am afraid the structure of the Bill is that it creates a duty on the Secretary of State. That is in order to send the deterrence message that entering the country illegally is unacceptable and to reduce the number of people crossing the channel. I am afraid to say that it is a logical step that if the Government were to change, then it would be open to that other Government to pass legislation of their own. That is democracy.

Illegal Migration Bill

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Murray of Blidworth

Wednesday 8th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I am sure the Minister will wish to correct an erroneous statement that he made in responding to the Front-Bench questions. He said there are 100 million refugees in the world. That is not what the Statement says. The figure from which the Statement draws comes, I believe, from the UNHCR: 100 million displaced people in the world, most of whom are in the countries of origin. I am sure the Minister will want to correct that. I am going to pick up on the question of children. Have the Minister or the Government considered what life would be like for a 16 year-old, a 15 year-old or a 17 year-old being held—warehoused—in this country and then, the day they turn 18, being thrown out, even though we know they are a refugee?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness and I entirely accept her correction. She is quite right about the figure of 100 million: it is displaced persons. On her second point, I am afraid I do not accept that it would be appropriate to exclude everyone under 18 from the operation of the scheme, and it is obvious why that should be: sadly, such an exception would generate very great abuse.

Migration and Economic Development Partnership with Rwanda

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Murray of Blidworth

Tuesday 20th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I apologise that I am not able to let the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, in; it is not in my power.

As both the Front-Bench questioners mentioned, despite the fact that the Statement makes no reference to it, the judges found that the cases of the individuals affected on the Rwanda flight were handled so chaotically and inappropriately by the Home Office that they should never have been on that flight in the first place. This is interesting when you note the rather slighting way in which the action of the European Court of Human Rights is referred to in this Statement, given that it was absolutely crucial for the rights of those individuals, as acknowledged by our court. None the less, those cases were clearly rushed.

The Prime Minister’s Statement this week on so-called illegal immigration—it should be stated clearly in your Lordships’ House that no person is illegal and every person is entitled to flee and seek refuge in cases where they need asylum—spoke of handling cases in days or weeks rather than months or years. How will the Government fairly, legally and justly handle cases, given what happened in the rushed circumstances of this case?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

If I may, I will turn first to the point made by the noble Baroness in respect of the Rule 39 indication made by the Strasbourg court in one of the cases of those to be removed on the initial Rwanda flight. I point out to the noble Baroness that, domestically, the Divisional Court and the Court of Appeal refused to grant an interim injunction, and the President of the Supreme Court in the United Kingdom refused permission to appeal against that decision. As was revealed during yesterday’s debate in the other place, it seems that the Russian judge granted the Rule 39 indication without hearing submissions from the UK Government and without providing any formal avenue to appeal against that decision. I do not accept that there was any automaticity about the interim relief afforded by the Strasbourg court.

I turn to the judgments on the eight specific written decisions. As I have already noted, the department has accepted the criticisms of the court, revoked those decisions and will redetermine them. It has revised and improved the decision-making process to ensure that the errors highlighted by the court will not be repeated.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I am afraid that I cannot answer the noble Lord’s question because the litigation is ongoing. One of the issues that will be canvassed on 16 January is costs. I assure my noble friend that we will be seeking costs against those parties who have lost in respect of their challenges to the Government.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the Minister has referred a number of times to stopping people coming across the channel in small boats. If the Government are successful in that, what assessment have they made of other routes that people would be likely to attempt and how much more dangerous they are likely to be?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

Obviously, the Home Office is alive to all the possible opportunities. The noble Baroness will not be surprised if I do not outline them at the Dispatch Box. Clearly, careful consideration of any displacement activity is undertaken, and steps are being taken to address any other possible vulnerabilities.

Hotel Asylum Accommodation: Local Authority Consultation

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Lord Murray of Blidworth

Thursday 24th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

Certainly on my visit to Manston a few weeks ago, I had the opportunity to meet the healthcare staff and visit the healthcare centre. I assure the noble Baroness that concern is paid to the health of those passing through Manston, and it is hoped that any conditions they suffer from at that time are treated, in particular with the topical creams that she suggests. I am concerned by what she said about what is happening with Clearsprings, but I am afraid that without a bit more detail, which I am sure she will provide, I cannot answer now, but I will do that. As to a meeting, certainly I am aware that she has raised this issue a number of times, and I am happy to have a meeting with her if that would assist.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My question follows on from that of the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, in referring to the company Clearsprings Ready Homes, which has a 10-year contract to supply hotel accommodation. A couple of weeks ago it emerged that the company’s profits were up sixfold in the past year and that three directors had shared dividends of almost £28 million. I contrast that with the asylum seekers in hotels who get £8.24 each week to buy essentials, which amounts to little more than £1 a day. Does the Minister think that money going in dividends is the best way for government money to be spent?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

Obviously it is not for me to comment on the entirety of the commercial operations of Clearsprings; nor do I know the extent to which the contracts for asylum accommodation are responsible for its profit margin, so it would not be appropriate for me to answer that question.