Covid-19 Pandemic: Educational Attainment

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Wednesday 22nd May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am not entirely sure that revisiting whether we should have locked down gets us much further forward. The Government are genuinely, tirelessly focusing on everything we can do to support schools in order to ensure that children are back in school, attending every day and thriving.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister may recall that three years ago, a very distinguished educationalist who was appointed by the Government to make some recommendations on how to deal with education post-pandemic, Sir Kevan Collins, advised that £15 billion was required to set right the damage that had been done—whatever view we take about whether that damage was inevitable. Does the Minister think that the amount of resource that has been put in since that time, bearing in mind that he resigned when the Government reduced that figure to £1.4 billion, has been adequate?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The money the Government have put in has been focused particularly on the most disadvantaged children and on leaving a legacy in our schools. The proof of the pudding is that attainment at key stages 1, 2 and 4 are all on the increase.

Higher Education (Industry and Regulators Committee Report)

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Tuesday 21st May 2024 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, for securing this important debate, and all members of the Industry and Regulators Committee for their work and scrutiny of the vital issues linked to the higher education sector and the Office for Students as its regulator. If I may, I also thank my noble friends Lord Johnson of Marylebone and Lord Willetts for their ministerial insights into the sector.

My noble friend Lord Johnson gave an incredibly helpful analysis and synopsis of the issues which led to the creation of an independent regulator with a focus on quality, competition, choice and value for money. I recognise some of his criticisms in relation to the way that government is structured, with part of the responsibility for the university sector sitting in the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology and part sitting in the Department for Education. I absolutely share his enthusiasm, and that of my noble friend Lord Willetts, for a real focus on innovation in the HE sector and on the lifelong learning entitlement.

I also thank my noble friend Lord Lucas for highlighting some really practical suggestions, which he brings from his experience of listening to students and parents, and the noble Lord, Lord Storey, for the examples of his interactions with the OfS in practice. It was extremely helpful for all of us to hear that.

Before I go into the report itself, I want to touch briefly on the independence of the OfS. I can honestly say that, in my experience within the department, I do not recognise the picture that noble Lords painted of political priorities driving the work of the OfS. If I may say so, I felt a tension between the calls for real independence on the part of the OfS and calls for the Government to influence its direction even more, which is, perhaps, something for all of us to take away and reflect on. I asked colleagues to check how many guidance letters we sent to the OfS in the past 12 months. We have issued four guidance letters to it: two related to the expansion of medical places and two related to funding. I am not sure quite what the threshold is for the number of ministerial letters, but that does not feel too oppressive to me.

I turn not so much to the Government’s response to the committee’s report, which your Lordships have obviously seen, but rather to providing updates to show the progress made against its recommendations. The noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, the noble Lord, Lord Storey, and others, dwelled on the importance of the relationship between the Office for Students, the students themselves and providers. I am pleased to see that the OfS has reflected on the committee’s recommendations regarding student interest in engagement. It has made sound progress in reaching out to students and inviting them to engage in its work, including work to reframe the OfS student panel, which I understand is now playing a key role in the development of the OfS’s new strategy for 2025 and beyond.

I know that the OfS has hosted numerous round tables and webinars, inviting students to contribute on its new freedom of speech and academic freedom functions to help inform proposals and consultations. Last month, the first meeting of the OfS’s new disability in higher education advisory panel—fondly known as DHEAP—took place, which will review how universities and colleges currently support disabled students and will make recommendations to improve their experience.

The noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, asked me about annual reports on student engagement. We are not aware that a commitment was made in that regard, and I am not aware that those reports are planned, but if there is a misunderstanding I am happy to pick that up with her afterwards.

Regarding the relationship with the sector, I hope that your Lordships will be pleased to hear how the OfS reflected on the committee’s recommendations to enhance—

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the Minister so near the end of the debate, but I am afraid that a Division has been called, so the Committee will have to adjourn. I advise members of the Committee that there are likely to be two or three votes back to back, so it will be not a 10-minute adjournment. It will be substantially more, probably more like half an hour. I advise members of the Committee to keep their eyes on the annunciators, particularly after the second vote has been completed.

Relationships, Sex and Health Education: Statutory Guidance

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Thursday 16th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Luckily, since we are talking about officials, I can confidently say that the right and left hands know what they are doing and there is definitely more than one brain in between. In all seriousness, I would be very happy to meet with the noble Lord once he has had a chance to look at the content of the new curriculum. I hope he will be reassured by the extent to which it acknowledges the issues to which he refers around online risks to children.

There is of course nothing to stop any parent talking to their children about risks online; indeed, I think we all hope that parents would be doing that. This also does not prevent children asking questions in the classroom or more privately to a teacher. None of this prevents the asking of questions about a child’s curiosity or worries; it just ensures that it is age appropriate in the way that it is delivered at the front of the classroom—and I hope the noble Lord supports the Government’s move to ban mobile phones in schools.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

On the point that the Minister has just raised about what happens if a child brings a problem to a teacher, rather than a teacher addressing the problem with the child, is she confident that it will be clear to teachers, once the guidance is up and running and embedded, that they are not prohibited from having conversations with children who have encountered, as the noble Lord, Lord Russell, has mentioned, things online that they certainly should not have encountered, but they have, and they need to talk to somebody about it? I am sorry to mention this but, going back over quarter of a century to the days of Section 28, whatever the letter of the law may have been, many people felt they were not able to have these discussions without running the risk of being on the wrong side of the law. I hope the Minister will agree that it is important that teachers are not unintentionally inhibited from having the very conversations that they need to have.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes, as ever, an important point in thinking about the reality in the classroom for teachers. I suppose I would say a few things about that. First, that is why we are so grateful to our expert panel for bringing their expertise and judgment into the shape of the new guidance. Secondly, there is absolutely discretion for teachers, so if they identify a particular problem, it is clear that they can talk to their class about it. But they need to let parents know and to share the materials that they plan to use, and it needs to be age-appropriate. In relation to whether this is a new Section 28—I think the noble Baroness was giving it as an example, rather than suggesting that is where we are going—again, it is absolutely clear that teachers must teach at the right age about protected characteristics, sexual orientation and gender reassignment but, simply, they must stick to the facts.

Expansion of Free Childcare

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Tuesday 23rd April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for raising that, because this can be an incredibly valuable support for children with special educational needs in their early years. We have increased the hourly funding rates and the dedicated additional SEND funding, but the department is doing a review of the SEND inclusion fund, to understand better how it is being used and whether we can improve on it.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has been asked many times about the apparent disconnection between the aspiration of this policy—which is admirable, as I have said before, and I think that most people would agree—and the ability of the sector to deliver it, and it has come up again today. If, for example, she had in her family a young person who was thinking about making a career in early years work, would she recommend them to do so? Where would she expect them to find the best career opportunities in the next three or four years?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

First, it is more than an aspiration. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State talked about aiming for 150,000 additional children taking up the entitlement offer in April. As I said, we are at just over 200,000, and we think that that number will continue to tick up, so it is more than an aspiration. Secondly, I was genuinely having this conversation at dinner with a friend, whose granddaughter was thinking about what to do with her career. There are fantastic opportunities in early years and childcare, such as apprenticeships and bootcamps, and we are introducing a route for people with experience but perhaps not the same formal qualifications. These are for all age groups and stages, and they include men as well as women.

Free Childcare Scheme

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Wednesday 20th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Some people might recognise that the Government are making a very substantial investment in this area. We have already spent more than £20 billion over the past five years to support families with the cost of childcare, and this next step will be another major one.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

I really do not think that the House would wish to cast aspersions on the intention of this policy. Most people would think that it was good and worth supporting. However, can the Minister say whether there is an accurate match between the funds that will be available to the sector from the Government to support this expansion and the need that they have identified for the funds in order to do it successfully? I think she will agree that there has been some doubt as to whether those two numbers match.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I genuinely thank the noble Baroness for her question, because it gives me the opportunity to set out a couple of things. One might want to look at funding rates for different ages of children to see whether there is sufficient funding. The funding for three to four year-olds is almost identical in the new scheme to previous rates. For two year-olds, the Government will pay £8.28 an hour, compared to £6.07 previously, and for those between nine months and two years, £11.22, compared to £6.05. I leave the noble Baroness to draw her own conclusions.

Independent Schools

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Monday 18th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, one thing is quite striking in listening to the answers in this Question. The thing that most independent schools have in common has barely been mentioned, with the possible exemption of one of the Minister’s noble friends who touched on it: almost all of them charge fees. The charging of fees is necessarily discriminatory. While I entirely applaud the efforts that independent schools are making to make available to some maintained schools some of what they have available, would the Minister agree that, none the less, the vast majority of maintained schools do not have access, particularly in arts and music but in other subjects as well, to the range, diversity and richness that are available to people who are able to pay?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Of course independent schools charge fees, which parents pay for out of income that has already been taxed. The question here is why pick on independent schools to charge VAT, rather than other forms of education such as tutoring, for example.

Jobs Market: Graduates

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Monday 27th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his supplementary question. I recognise some of the points that he makes about the regional differences in graduate opportunities. However, on our wider skills strategy, the Government have introduced the lifelong learning Act, which will offer students the ability to reskill and upskill over their lifetimes. We are investing in skills at all levels and also focusing on making sure that the quality of all degrees is as high as can be.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, I was so surprised by the absence of other noble Lords asking questions that I almost did not get up. Could the Minister think particularly about the creative industries, where, at the moment, there is a significant lack of people to fill vacancies? It is true, as I think she would agree, that, historically, it is not the highest paid sector, but it is one of the most highly skilled, and yet—and here she might not agree—the education system really does not emphasise enough the value of the skills needed for the creative industries. Could she let the House know how those skills are being better valued in the education system, so that those vacancies can be filled?

Schools: Food Standards

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Wednesday 15th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I may need to write to the noble Lord with a detailed answer to that. The Government follow the evidence on what will have the greatest impact. Specifically in relation to children, as I said, it is the location of products that makes the biggest difference.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My lords, the Minister referred in her first Answer to my noble friend to a certainty that food that was supplied to children would be healthy and nutritious—I think those are the words she used. If I were a parent with a child at school, how would I find the evidence demonstrating that the food being offered to them met those standards?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am sure that parents can access the school food standards. We work closely with schools and help them, particularly at times of inflationary pressure, to ensure that they get the best value for money. We offer that service to any state-funded school that wants it. Again, I can write to the noble Baroness with details of where parents would find that information.

Education: Advanced British Standard

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Tuesday 17th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The way we are thinking about this programme—I stress again that we need to consult extensively on the detail of it—is that it will offer children much more breadth and time, including a third more teaching time. That means that we can keep around 90% of the content of the current A-level for those going down an academic route and follow the occupational standards for those going down a technical or vocational route. The aim of the programme is to give children much greater choice so that they will still be able to access the same three-year degrees if university is their preferred option but also be well equipped for further technical education or the workplace.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister, in her initial Answer to my noble friend on the Front Bench, referred to the necessity for extensive consultation before the new qualifications can be properly embedded. I am sure she will agree that the burden of changing the arrangements for post-16 education will fall hugely on schools, and particularly on school leaders. Can she tell the House how extensively those people will be consulted? Without wishing to be disrespectful, how much notice will be taken of what they say?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am slightly surprised by the noble Baroness’s last remark. This programme clearly cannot work without the buy-in, understanding and support of school leaderships, so it would be a short-sighted Government who did not pay attention to their reflections on this. I am also slightly surprised by the noble Baroness’s hesitancy, because this approach was in the Labour manifesto of 2010 and recommended by the Times Education Commission.

Teacher Training: Dyslexia and Autism

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Thursday 22nd June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I would be delighted to arrange a meeting with my noble friend to discuss the Synergy programme. She is right that children with special educational needs might have specific academic challenges, but, inevitably, behavioural challenges can be linked to those. We are working very closely with schools to make sure that, in respect of behaviour and attendance, those children feel as supported and included as possible.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that young people with a diagnosis of autism or ADHD often also exhibit signs of quite significant mental health issues. The two are not the same. In creating an education, health and care plan for such young people, a number of different kinds of input are necessary, from not just the school but mental health professionals and others. Does she accept that the problem identified by this Question is partly if not wholly one of capacity? Even if they have people trained to do this kind of work, schools are under enormous pressure and find it very difficult to meet the proper demands of an EHCP. Will she look into how that capacity issue could be alleviated?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises two issues: the importance of multi-agency input and co-ordination, and capacity. Our Special Educational Needs and Disabilities and Alternative Provision Improvement Plan aims to address exactly those, giving clarity and confidence to parents as to what they can expect from the system, and support for teachers, including a number of practice guides, the initial ones looking at mental health and wellbeing, autism, and speech and communication needs. So I think we are addressing all of the points raised by the noble Baroness.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, I meant to declare my interest: a member of my family has an EHCP.

[Baroness Thornhill (LD)]

My Lords, I was a secondary school SENCO, back in the bad old days of very little specialist training and much ignorance of dyslexia and other learning difficulties. I was privileged to do part of my postgraduate training with the late Violet Brand, who was a renowned pioneer in dyslexia; it was very rare and ground-breaking. In the Minister’s initial response to the noble Lord, Lord Addington, she referred to the role of SENCO. My understanding is that the Government have recently lowered the national SENCO qualification standard. I was going to ask the Minister why the Government are dumbing down this critical role, but I should probably revert to asking her to clarify the position, because both the British Dyslexia Association and I seem to have a different take—the standard has not gone up, it is actually being lowered.

School Uniform Policies

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Monday 12th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As I said, schools know their communities, and we trust them to make the right judgments for their pupils and staff.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, in her response to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, the noble Baroness mentioned environmental sustainability. Will she accept that the cheapest clothes available, not just for school uniforms but in many other situations, are on the whole made from the least environmentally sustainable fabrics? Will she accept that, if there is to be an increase in recycling and reusing school uniforms—which I think we all agree would be very good—it would be very much in everyone’s interests if they were made from the highest-quality fabrics? They would then last longer in the recycling process.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We have to strike a balance for parents who need to send their children to school in a uniform that fits and is suitable, encouraging them to use second-hand uniforms wherever possible, while of course considering the environment.

Free Music Education

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Monday 12th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for her suggestion. The department is very open to working with organisations such as Rambert and is very grateful to them for the work they do. Dance is included within the physical education curriculum and it includes specific requirements at key stages 1 through 3. Schools have flexibility about how they deliver this curriculum, but I would be happy to meet my noble friend and follow up her suggestion.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, in her last but one answer, the Minister observed that the creative industries do not have any trouble in recruiting. I point out to her that they do. There is a significant skills shortage across the creative industries, which causes considerable concern. She might not necessarily agree, but many people believe that a lot of that is to do with the fact that the arts, and in particular music, are not given the privileged status within our schools that she imagines they should have and tells the House they have.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I apologise if I gave the impression that there are no skills pressures in the creative industries. I just pointed out that our creative industries are world beating and are able to recruit talent in a way that allows them to be so.

Performing Arts: GCSE and A-level Qualifications

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Wednesday 26th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend is right that we absolutely should be working together. I thank all the charities and voluntary organisations, which are so varied and bring so much richness to our children’s lives, including the Royal Society of Church Music.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

On that point, will the Minister join me in paying tribute to the extraordinary work being done by many arts organisations across the whole country in engaging with schools and the education system? However, often what they are doing is filling a gap, and their ability to engage is very dependent on individual head teachers’ willingness to make time and resources available for what they have on offer to be delivered to their young people. Will she acknowledge that at the moment the deficit that is being discussed in this Question is being filled largely by arts organisations, which are themselves under enormous pressure?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I just do not fully accept the deficit that the noble Baroness describes. I absolutely agree with her that arts organisations bring an important, valuable and different perspective, but schools themselves are also doing an extraordinary job. As we can see from our incredibly successful creative industries, we are getting something right.

Apprenticeship Levy

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Tuesday 25th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Engineering and manufacturing technologies account for about 14% of all the apprenticeship starts. Last year that was about 49,000 apprentices.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned the creative industries in a number of her earlier answers. I believe she said most recently that 1,500 starts are expected within those industries. Can she tell the House—and if not, can she please write on the matter—how many of those 1,500 are being undertaken in small and medium-sized enterprises within the creative industries?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Given that the creative industries are full of small and medium-sized enterprises, I assume that it is the vast majority. If it is different from that, I will write to the noble Baroness.

Children: Bereavement Support in Schools

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Monday 6th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I hear what the noble Lord says. I am slightly surprised, because I think there has been a real focus by Ofsted on safeguarding in its broadest sense and the important pastoral role that schools provide—but I will, of course, take what he says back.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness’s answers, and indeed the questions, have focused, understandably, on the impact on individual bereaved children. What is the Government’s view of the impact on the classes of which those children are part? Very often, the distress exhibited by one child can be transmitted to others, who often do not fully understand what they are witnessing and sometimes have great difficulty in managing it.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a good point. Indeed, in thinking about this, I was also thinking about situations which affect the whole class—for example, where a member of the class tragically is killed. The very valid point she raised also affects teachers, not just pupils. I come back to the fact that schools need to implement a strong, pastoral approach across their school community, balancing their own insight and the relationships and trust they have with pupils and colleagues with the resources in their local community and the national resources that we signpost and provide.

Secondary Schools: Autistic Pupils

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Thursday 26th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord raises two connected issues. Formal diagnosis of autism in this country needs to be done by a medical professional—a doctor. The noble Lord is absolutely right; that does not need to slow down interventions to support a child where there is apparently autism, even before it is confirmed. The Government announced a contract with a number of leading charities in this area to provide universal training across the teaching workforce in both schools and FE, and 60,000 people have been trained so far since April 2022.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, on this question of diagnosis, which the Minister has referred to, I am sure she is aware that it can take quite a long time before it is even seen to be necessary to seek a diagnosis, that this is particularly true with girls—children and young people up to teenage years—and that, once the need for a diagnosis has been identified, it can take a very long time to get it. Even if you are prepared—some people are, but not everybody can—to go for a private route to secure that diagnosis, it can sometimes be a year or two, three or four years before that diagnosis can be made. Can she see any way forward to changing that situation?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The whole strategic focus of the improvement plan that we will be publishing in response to the SEND and AP Green Paper consultation is to address the problem we see today of late diagnosis, late intervention and needs escalating; that is absolutely our aspiration. On the diagnosis of girls, we are running two pilots at the moment, one testing new screening tools and the other seeing whether we can adapt existing ones, because we are all aware that four times as many boys are diagnosed as girls.

Family: Protective Effect

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Monday 7th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I will certainly take the point that my noble friend has raised back to the department. I am delighted to express my support for the incredibly important, difficult and sensitive work that child contact centres carry out.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

To take the Minister back to the answer she gave on the subject of mental health services, particularly for young people, she will be aware that the real difficulty in providing those services is that there is an insufficiently large workforce. There are simply not enough professionally qualified people to deliver the kinds of services that young people very badly need. In what way are the various funds that the Minister has referred to going to help with that problem?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a fair point, and I am happy to write to her setting out in more detail the Government’s strategy on expanding the workforce. She will appreciate that this falls more within the Department of Health workforce strategy, but I am happy to expand on that. Also, there are a number of very sophisticated and helpful digital applications that can help support young people in addressing the mental health challenges they face.

Education: Philosophy

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Tuesday 1st November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate will be aware of the legislation we were debating in Grand Committee only yesterday afternoon on the importance of free speech in our universities. The Government think that is of critical importance, as is academic freedom, but of course, it needs to start in our schools, and I have seen many fantastic examples of teachers engaging with children and giving them those skills and the confidence to debate.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, I should declare an interest as I have a degree in philosophy—but I am not sure what that says about the value of such a thing. I may no longer be very familiar with synthetic a priori or logical positivism, but what I do know is that philosophy teaches you never to be sure that you are right. Does the Minister agree that our public discourse and political culture could really do with a bit less certainty about rightness?

Special Educational Needs

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Monday 20th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government have made a big commitment to increasing funding in this area. High needs funding has risen by 40% over the past three years, but we work proactively with local authorities which are under particular pressure. We have a safety-valve programme, where we provide additional funding to those local authorities that can demonstrate they have a strategy for addressing their overspend.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness said that she understood the point being made by my noble friend Lord Kennedy; I fear I did not entirely understand her answer. She appears to be saying that it does not matter that schools are not getting the money per pupil originally intended for them because they have flexibility to spend it as they wish. I do not quite see how those two things go together. Could she explain?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As the noble Baroness knows, schools get two amounts of funding for children. In the current financial year, they will receive directly almost £9 billion, and the notional SEN budget was £4.3 billion. We believe that it is best for them to decide how that is spent. The noble Baroness will also be aware that we are moving to the national funding formula, which will create greater consistency and transparency in how those funds are used.

Schools: Creative Subjects and the English Baccalaureate

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Tuesday 29th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The department does not track the expenditure on these subjects in independent schools. What the department is committed to, and restated in the schools White Paper yesterday, is that every child should have a rich cultural education, and we will be publishing a new cultural education plan jointly with DCMS next year.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness’s credentials regarding personal commitment to these issues are impeccable, both in this role and the role she held previously at the DCMS; however, the evidence is against her. As the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, has just said, there is an impact not only on students in schools but on the workforce both within education and in the creative industries more widely, as there is a decline in the numbers of people prepared to take forward qualifications in music, drama and other creative subjects, Does she worry at all that the much-vaunted creative industries, of which she and her colleagues frequently speak with pride, will be suffering over the coming years as a result of these policies?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question and her kind remarks but I just cannot accept what she suggests. As she points out, we have thriving cultural and creative industries in this country. We have enough teachers entering initial teacher training for art and design and drama, well above our recruitment targets. We are committing more funding in T-levels, in media, broadcast and production, and in craft and design, so I think we are building the platform for our creative industries and our children to thrive.

Music Education in State Schools

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Wednesday 2nd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government share my noble friend’s concern about the importance of music education in all of our schools. We see it, along with other arts subjects, as integral to a good, strong curriculum. In relation to the numbers that my noble friend quoted on the music GCSE, I point out that while he is right that uptake of the GCSE has declined, uptake of the VTQ—the vocational qualification—has increased, so actually there are almost 53,000 children today taking either the GCSE or the VTQ, compared to almost 50,000 in 2016. On the timing of the announcement of the plan, as I said, it will be later this year. I will take his recommendations on further consultation back to the department.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, I will follow directly from the question of the noble Lord, Lord Black. The Minister may be interested to know that my daughter is a professional musician who spends part of her working life, like so many of her colleagues, teaching in an independent school where the list of peripatetic and full-time music education staff takes up half a page on the school’s website. This shows that parents value music education and, in that case, are prepared and able to pay for it. Does the Minister think that parents of state school pupils care any less about music education? I am sure that she does not. None the less, she will be aware that my daughter’s own children, who attend state schools, do not have access to anything like the provision which my daughter is part of providing in an independent school.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I agree with the noble Baroness that parents in every school care about the richness and breadth of the curriculum which their children undertake. The music education hubs that were created in 2012 now work with around 91.4% of primary schools in this country and almost 88% of secondary schools. Since 2018, there has been a sharp increase in both music tuition and whole-class ensembles.

Higher Education: T-Levels

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Thursday 24th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, closely tied in with the emergence of T-levels is the fate of BTEC qualifications. Are the Government confident that the range of opportunities aside from A-levels that will be available to all students once T-levels have been phased in will be wide enough to encompass the many students who may have special needs or special abilities—sometimes those things go together—which are best served currently by BTEC? I ask particularly, given that the Government declined to extend the life of BTECs by more than a very short amount in the Bill.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I understand the noble Baroness’s concern. Of course we want to make sure that young people in this country have the range of opportunities that they deserve, and that the industries and employers get the range of skills they need to be able to deliver. The Wolf review and the Sainsbury review were clear that things needed to change in terms of technical and vocational qualifications, and we are addressing those recommendations.

School Openings: January 2022

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Thursday 16th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness’s tone is a little harsh in saying “budget spare”. We are talking about making sure our classrooms are safe for children, which is why we prioritise the distribution of devices to children with special educational needs and children in alternative provision. Indeed, beyond CO₂ monitors, we have disrupted 1,000 ventilation devices to those schools and launched a marketplace where schools can buy purification devices at the best prices.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister talked about students and we have also talked about parents. We have not yet talked about teachers. What are the Government doing to support school leaders at a time when the management of the fluctuating crisis we are all in is extremely difficult? Can she assure us that the messaging that goes to school leaders at this time is, as far as possible, encouraging and supportive but not accusatory?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We have been extremely clear in our gratitude to school leaders for the extraordinary job they have done over the last couple of years. We have the workforce fund, which provides funding for supply teachers and has been extended until the spring half-term. We are endeavouring to communicate in the most constructive and positive way possible.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right. In our communication with schools and multi-academy trusts last week, we again pointed to the important role they play in identifying vulnerable children.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, the time limit on this Question has expired.

Children and Families Act 2014: Education, Health and Care Plans

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Wednesday 8th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I understand my noble friend’s diplomatically put question. He is right to raise the issue of Covid, but he will also know that this is an incredibly complex area. We have set up a steering group that includes families, schools, local authorities and other independent organisations. We are committed to the deadline, which has now been announced, of publishing the Green Paper in the first quarter of next year.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister referred to early intervention. Does she agree that one of the difficulties with this area is that families with children who appear to be needing assessment —for example, for autism or learning difficulties—find it very difficult even to get the assessment, never mind the care plan that would come from it? Can she say how that problem is being addressed? How should families who cannot afford to spend money on private assessments conduct themselves?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises an important point. I feel I cannot comment in detail ahead of the Green Paper, but those are exactly the sorts of issues we are working with families, local authorities and other professionals to address.

Child Safeguarding

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Monday 6th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I hope my noble friend will be pleased to know that in the Government’s independent review of social care we will be looking at how we can further support kinship families for all the reasons that my noble friend touched on. There are about 150,000 children in this country living in kinship care arrangements, so it is a really important element. In recent years, we have provided extra support to kinship carers who are looking after a child who was previously in care under a special guardianship order. Those carers can now access therapeutic services funded by the adoption support fund to help those children deal with the trauma that they have experienced. We have also recently changed the school admissions fair access protocol so that more children in kinship care will have access to schools that will support them with their kinship placement.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, the time allowed for Back-Bench questions has now elapsed.

Education: Music and the Arts

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Monday 25th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right that we need to look at qualifications more broadly than simply the financial and earnings potential of those careers. However, I am sure she will also agree with me that we need to meet a significant skills shortage in STEM and related subjects. I hope she will be pleased that the Government are bringing forward a T-level in craft and design which has been developed with employers.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my interests in the register. There are many ways of learning, but over the past decade education policy has privileged one kind—the ability to acquire knowledge by rote and reproduce it under time pressure—over all others. Your Lordships’ House’s Select Committee on Youth Unemployment, of which I am a member, has had evidence from many employers that shows that this is not enough and that they are looking for people who can also think critically and independently, communicate clearly and work well with other people. Does the noble Baroness agree that these are precisely the attributes that arts-led education encourages?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right that arts-led education encourages those traits, but not only arts-led education encourages critical thinking. I think that she does the teaching profession a disservice; perhaps she would like to join me on a visit to a school to see how little is being done by rote.

Dormant Assets Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Committee stage
Wednesday 23rd June 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, Amendments 57, 58 and 59 put forward respectively in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, the noble Baronesses, Lady Kramer and Lady Barker, and the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, seek further commitment and clarity regarding Clause 29 and the statutory duty to consult. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, for setting out so clearly the importance of the consultation process: we concur absolutely with the spirit of her remarks and I hope that my remarks on the earlier group show quite how critical we see the consultation as being as part of the Bill.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked me to commit that a question about a community wealth fund will be in the consultation. We need a collective agreement on what goes into any consultation document, so I am unable to give her that reassurance today. Similarly, I hesitate to make any comment in relation to the specific community wealth fund initiative, however caveated in the way she suggests, because I do not want to give the impression that any decisions have been made before they have been. We are genuinely going into this consultation with the aim that I outlined on the earlier group; I hope she will accept that.

As noble Lords have noted, Clause 29 mirrors the approach for distributing funding that is already used in the devolved Administrations. In line with their process, the Secretary of State will consider who it is appropriate to consult and has committed to launching a full public consultation on the social and environmental causes in England, provided this measure passes. This will give the public and sector participants the opportunity to contribute their views before any change may be made to the current English causes. The devolved Administrations have similarly undertaken public consultations on the distribution of their portions before laying orders.

I will respond to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Kramer and Lady Merron. Making further specifications in this clause could imply that these stakeholders are more important than other groups which it might be equally appropriate to consult.

I turn to the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, on the length of the consultation. It will be open for a proportionate amount of time to allow for considered and good-quality responses, and will be in line with Cabinet Office guidance. She will be aware that, in response to the challenges faced by many groups, but including small community organisations, we have extended the time period of consultations where necessary, particularly, most recently, during the pandemic. For the reasons I have set out, I am not able to accept these amendments and I ask that noble Lords do not press them.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, I have had one request to speak after the Minister, from the noble Baroness, Lady Lister of Burtersett.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for, as usual, responding very fairly, but I have a number of questions. She said, and I understand why, that she cannot commit to including the community wealth funds in the consultation document, but will she at the very least commit to considering it when discussing what will go into the consultation after the Bill becomes law?

The Minister did not respond to my fundamental question—it was raised also by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer—about the difference between what the Bill says about consultation and what she herself has said about it. I asked specifically whether she would take the matter away and have another look at it before Report. If the Government are committed to consulting community groups and so forth, why does the Bill not say so? It is sending out a very bad message if it stays like it is. I want to push her on that. Will she at least look at what has been said today and see whether the drafting of the Bill could not be improved? As has been pointed out, there has already been quite a large number of government amendments. This amendment would not change what the Government plan to do, but it would give a clear signal to the outside world that the consultation would, to use my noble friend’s word, be “meaningful”.

On the timescale, the Cabinet Office gives very little guidance now. Can the Minister at least confirm that she accepts that, given the kind of groups we want to hear from, “proportionate” points towards a longer rather than a shorter timescale for consultation?

Covid-19: Performing Arts Freelance Workers

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Wednesday 10th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I draw the House’s attention to my interests as listed in the register.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, around 40% of awards made so far from the £1.57 billion Culture Recovery Fund have gone to non-building-based organisations. Arts Council England has also provided over £47 million of awards to individuals through non-CRF funds. The Government have supported the self- employed in the performing arts through the Self-employment Income Support Scheme. As of 31 December, 60,000 self-employed people in the sector have claimed for phase 3 of the scheme, 76,000 received support in phase 1 and 72,000 in phase 2.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her detailed Answer and wish her a very happy birthday. It is undoubtedly true that significant help has gone to organisations from the CRF, but organisations can help freelancers only by employing them. Recent research from Freelancers Make Theatre Work shows that performing arts organisations ordinarily expect to spend nearly 40% of their turnover on employing freelancers. This has not been possible for nearly a year and there is no early prospect of work resuming. One-third of freelancers in the sector have received no government support since the pandemic began and I can tell from personal experience how desperate they have become. Do the Government now have plans to broaden the eligibility criteria for the Self-employment Income Support Scheme and/or to enable remaining CRF funds to be used to provide more targeted, direct support to freelancers?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her kind wishes. In relation to her question, she is right that the work of freelancers is totally tied up with the ability of cultural institutions to begin to perform again, something that we are all very much looking forward to. The Treasury is looking at phase 4 of the Self-employment Income Support Scheme and will be announcing the terms of that in the Budget early next month. In the meantime, we have held back £400 million from the Culture Recovery Fund as a contingency to make sure that we are able to support organisations and the freelancers they employ, so that we can begin to enjoy our performing arts again when it is safe to do so.

Music Sector: Working in Europe

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Wednesday 3rd February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I congratulate the company on what it has achieved over the last 33 years. We in this House are all proud of the work of our creative colleagues. I advise them to work through their industry bodies to make sure that the department hears of the issues that they face and can feed them into the solutions that we are trying to find.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, listening to the noble Baroness’s answers today, I have the uncomfortable feeling that we have gone backwards from where we were a couple of weeks ago, when she last answered a Question on this subject in the House. Is she saying that the Government now have no intention of further engagement with the EU or EU member states to try to get a better outcome for the many performers and performing arts organisations that are faced with these new restrictions? If so, is that not a counsel of despair?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I hope that it is not a counsel of despair. As I have said before in the House, there is scope to return to this issue in the future, should the EU change its mind. We were clear on what we tried to achieve. That ambitious request was based on advice that we received from musicians and the creative industries more broadly. We cannot go back from what they have told us that they need. The Government are looking at whether we can work with our partners in EU member states to find ways to make life easier for them in the meantime.

UK Musicians: EU Visa Arrangements

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Wednesday 20th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I reassure the noble Lord that our negotiators did everything in their power to avoid the current situation. We are incredibly disappointed that the EU neither proposed nor would accept a tailored deal for musicians. We are trying to give those brilliant and talented people the clarity that they need to continue to thrive.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has often told the House—indeed, she has just done so again—that the Government are committed to supporting musicians, but I have to tell her from personal experience that they do not feel supported. They feel shocked and scared. The EU trade deal actively harms their interests, and they do not understand why. But since, as the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey, has just said, we are where we are, will she confirm that the Government will now engage urgently in further negotiations with the EU and with member states to ensure that the livelihoods of UK musicians are not seriously damaged?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

With regard to the noble Baroness’s broader point about support for musicians, the culture recovery fund has already dispersed over £168 million to more than 600 musical groups and venues, so I think that our support for musicians is clear. In terms of reopening negotiations with the EU, the noble Baroness’s party, and my own, very recently voted for the deal, which included all the points that we are discussing today. Our offer still stands but, in the meantime, we are pursuing simplification and clarification on a bilateral basis with individual member states.

Gambling

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Thursday 7th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We do not see ourselves as, and nor are the officials working in this area, slow or weak. As the noble Lord knows, the Department of Health and Social Care is responsible for the Government’s addiction strategy across all forms of addition. He will be aware of the comorbidity between different forms of addiction, and there are other aspects of gambling. We know that the vast majority of people who gamble do not experience harm, and that is the balance the department is trying to strike: to reduce the harm, and to allow those who gamble safely to do so.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am afraid that we have once again got to the end of time before we got to the end of the speakers’ list. We now come to the fourth Oral Question.

Covid-19: Arts Sector

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Tuesday 15th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I can reassure the noble Viscount that we are looking in detail, with HMRC and the Treasury, at a range of reasons why self-employed people may be ineligible. That work is under way and I am assuming that graduates form part of it.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I refer the House to my interests in the register. Has the noble Baroness had time to read the most recent report from the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee, Employment and COVID-19? It has some pretty trenchant things to say about the Government’s treatment of freelancers. In one example, it says that the Government have not taken action “to better target” the SEISS

“at those most affected by the pandemic, despite having had months to reform the scheme.”

Reference to the culture recovery fund will not quite do, as important as that is. Highly skilled freelancers are leaving the arts now and, as the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, has just said, newly trained young people who hope to come in—especially those from under- represented backgrounds—are thinking again, such is the vulnerability of the sector. These are the performers, technicians, craftspeople and also the teachers of the future. How can the Government justify this waste of talent?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government have not been wasting their time. We have announced the largest support package for the cultural sector of £1.5 billion, which we think will sustain the cultural ecosystem, allow venues to reopen and protect jobs. However, as I said to the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, we are working closely to understand where there are barriers to freelancers accessing support.

Covid-19: Support for Entertainment and Music Industry Freelancers

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Monday 9th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We understand the important points that the noble Earl has raised and we are keeping these schemes under review. To repeat what I have said, we believe that the key to this is to get people performing as quickly as possible; we have tried to do this both through the exemptions that we have achieved for rehearsals and in the direction of our funding.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I remind the House of my interests as listed in the register. I have listened very carefully to the Minister’s responses so far but I respectfully suggest that she has not yet given a satisfactory answer to the underlying question: why, after eight months and four versions of the SEISS and the CJRS, have the Government still not found a way to include many thousands of freelancers who have so far received no government support whatsoever and will not do so under the new arrangement? Please could the Minister have another go at answering that question?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am happy to have as many goes as it takes. I understand the noble Baroness’s persistence on this point. To reiterate: we have the Self-employment Income Support Scheme; I acknowledge that not everyone is eligible for it. We have a major funding package for the sector, which we hope will restart work as quickly as possible. It not quite fair for the noble Baroness to speak of “no support at all”; we have adapted the welfare system so that the self-employed can access universal credit in full to get support as quickly as possible.

Covid-19: Performing Arts

Debate between Baroness Barran and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Monday 13th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I draw attention to my interests as listed in the register.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recognise how severely the cultural sector has been hit by Covid-19. On 5 July, we announced a £1.57 billion support package for key cultural organisations, to help them through this pandemic. The funding will provide targeted support to organisations across a range of sectors including performing arts, theatres, museums and galleries, heritage sites, live music venues and independent cinema. It will protect cultural assets of international, national and regional importance, and prevent the loss of the valuable cultural fabric from our towns and regions.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall [V]]

My Lords, I of course acknowledge with gratitude the scale of last week’s announcement, but there is urgent need for further clarity about whether the new funds will do anything to address the plight of freelance workers, including performers, who make up 70% of the sector’s workforce. Many of them have been unable to access current income support schemes. Further, when will funds start being distributed, and when will there be a plan with dates and sufficient notice to allow theatres and other indoor spaces to reopen in an economically viable way? At this perilous time, speed really is of the essence.

[Baroness Barran]

I acknowledge that the Covid-19 crisis has presented a particular challenge for freelancers. The package will support cultural institutions, which means the physical and the human fabric of those institutions. The department is working with our arm’s-length bodies to get the funds out as quickly as possible, and the noble Baroness will be aware that stage 3 of the road map has now been reached, meaning that outdoor socially distanced live performances are now possible.