Conversion Therapy Prohibition (Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity) Bill [HL]

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Friday 9th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, I first congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Burt of Solihull, on securing this important Second Reading debate on her Bill and thank her for the tone in which she opened it. Like others, I also acknowledge the courage of those noble Lords and Baronesses who have experienced direct discrimination or prejudice because of their sexual orientation.

As we heard in your Lordships’ House, the noble Baroness’s Bill would make provision to prohibit sexual orientation and gender identity conversion therapy across the United Kingdom. The Government share the noble Baroness’s goal to protect vulnerable people from harm, and it remains our intention to publish a draft Bill for pre-legislative scrutiny.

However, I must express reservations about this Bill and raise concerns relating to four areas: the definition of “conversion therapy”; the inclusion of “suppression” within the offence; the use and lack of definition of “gender identity”; and the proposed territorial extent of the Bill. A number of these issues have been raised by your Lordships today.

I will take these issues in turn. First, on the terminology and definition, the Government now use the term “conversion practices” to reflect the fact that conversion acts take a range of different forms and to avoid conflation with legitimate talking therapies. Further, I am concerned that the definition is very wide in scope and appears to lack precision and clarity, therefore leaving it vulnerable to misapplication. It is vital that any legislation targeting these harmful practices does not affect the ability of parents, teachers, counsellors, religious leaders or healthcare practitioners to have open, exploratory and sometimes even challenging conversations, particularly with young people who are expressing or exploring their sexual orientation and/or gender identity.

In particular, I worry that such a broad definition would create a chilling effect for those working in the legitimate clinical care sector, who may feel too nervous to conduct their jobs out of fear of potential criminalisation. This in turn could negatively impact those people who are seeking, and indeed needing, support in relation to feelings of gender distress or gender dysphoria, or in coming to terms with their sexuality.

I must also express reservations around the inclusion of suppression within the scope of the offence. This risks a very wide range of acts being criminalised and is likely to disproportionately impact freedom of thought, conscience and religion.

I move on to the use of the term “gender identity”. While we agree that any protections should include all those at risk, whether straight or gay, transgender or not, the Government have significant reservations about relying on the term “gender identity”. This is not a recognised term within our existing legal framework and is a contested belief. Introducing it in this way risks a lack of legislative clarity, which would likely make prosecutions difficult and set an unhelpful legislative precedent that could have much wider ramifications, in both criminal and civil law.

Finally, the Bill proposes to legislate for the whole of the UK. This would be problematic because, of course, criminal justice is fully devolved to our Scottish and Northern Irish counterparts.

Let me be clear that the Government’s opposition to this Bill does not mean that we are complacent about the harm that conversion practices can cause. We absolutely condemn conversion practices; they are inherently wrong and have no place in our society. As a number of noble Lords pointed out, many harmful physical and violent acts done in the name of conversion practice are already illegal in this country, as of course they should be. As Equalities Ministers have said, these acts are aimed at changing someone else’s identity, whether that be to or from being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender, or indeed heterosexual, and have no place in UK society.

However, there remains a gap, albeit narrow, in the existing legislative framework, including surrounding non-physical and speech-based acts, such as one-off instances of significant verbal degradation or abuse, which are not covered by existing legislation. For other examples, I would point to the Cass interim report, which notes:

“The complex interaction between sexuality and gender identity, and societal responses to both; for example, we have heard from young lesbians who felt pressured to identify as transgender male, and conversely transgender males who felt pressured to come out as lesbian rather than transgender”.


These examples highlight just how complex but essential it is to legislate in a balanced and measured way, alive to all the potential impacts of the approach taken, both intended and unintended.

This is why the Government plan to bring forward our own draft legislation for pre-legislative scrutiny by a committee of both Houses on this issue, which has been thoughtfully considered over some time and, crucially, informed by public consultation. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for engaging on this important issue. Her Bill has allowed for further consideration and discussion on how to tackle these abhorrent practices. However, on the basis of the specific issues that I outlined, I express reservations on behalf of the Government on the noble Baroness’s Bill.

EEA Nationals (Indefinite Leave to Remain) Bill [HL]

Baroness Barran Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 19th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I start by echoing the regret voiced by a number of noble Lords at the absence from the Front Bench of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter. She was one of the first people I met here, because she was supporting the noble Baroness, Lady Bryan, and we were introduced together. She was incredibly warm and friendly then, but I have since witnessed her forensic analysis of legislation and her dignified leadership of the Benches opposite, so I share other noble Lords’ sentiments and hope we see her back on the Bench opposite soon.

I turn to the Bill before us. Since the 2016 referendum, securing the rights of EU citizens in the UK, and those of UK nationals in the EU, has been the Government’s priority, and we are delivering on this commitment. Much of the debate today has centred on questioning the solidity and robustness of that commitment, and I will do my best in the time available to reassure your Lordships that this is indeed the case.

EU citizens have immeasurably enriched this country and our way of life, as noted by my noble friend Lord Cormack. Like the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, I also had two parents who were immigrants, from slightly further afield but both European, and went to a Catholic school—not the same school as him, but with plenty of similar names.

The Government absolutely share the desire of the noble Lord, Lord Oates, to secure their rights of EU citizens here in an inclusive, accessible and robust way. In my response I will try to cover five areas: the applicability of the right of abode to EEA citizens as currently drafted in the Bill; the relative inclusivity of the EU settlement scheme compared with the Bill; the scheme’s progress; the issue of physical documentation, which a number of your Lordships raised; and, finally, some of the risks implicit with a declaratory system.

The EU settlement scheme has been created to ensure that every EU citizen can secure their right to remain here, whether or not there is a deal to leave the EU. Settled status, or indefinite leave to remain, granted under the scheme provides the holder with the same access to benefits, education and healthcare as those who currently acquire permanent residence under EU law.

Granting a right of abode, as in the Bill, would be inappropriate and unnecessary. Not all British nationals have a right of abode in the UK—only British citizens, together with certain Commonwealth citizens. Others, such as British Overseas Territories citizens, do not have an automatic right of abode, so extending a right of abode to other groups of non-British nationals would mean they have more rights than some British nationals. In common with other Governments over time, we believe this would not be appropriate.

Turning to the scope of protection, we believe that the Bill potentially offers less protection to EU citizens than the Government’s approach. I acknowledge that that is the last thing the noble Lord, Lord Oates, is intending, but that is our analysis. Those applying under the EU settlement scheme are not generally required to show they meet all the requirements of current free movement rules. The UK has decided, as a matter of domestic policy, that the main requirement for eligibility under the scheme is continuous residence in the UK. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, questioned this approach, but I hope noble Lords will agree that the principle of residence is relatively simple. By contrast, under the Bill a person would have to be lawfully resident here—that is, exercising their treaty rights under EU law. This could take many thousands of people out of the scope of protection, including those who are not economically active or self-sufficient and many vulnerable people who may not be exercising their treaty rights here.

I pause on that point, because the noble Lords, Lord Oates and Lord Kennedy, the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and potentially other noble Lords talked about the risks of vulnerable people. Whatever language we use around vulnerability and whatever approach we follow, those groups are the most at risk.

The noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, asked for definitions of family members. There are slightly different definitions in the EU settlement scheme and the Bill, so in the interests of time I hope that he will accept it if I write to him and set out both.

I will now update your Lordships on progress with the EU settlement scheme. The noble Lord, Lord Oates, questioned whether we would be able to reach the 3 million or 3.6 million people we believe are eligible. I am pleased to say that the scheme is running successfully. It was launched fully on 30 March this year, and we believe it provides a simple and streamlined process for resident EEA and Swiss citizens and their family members to obtain status under the UK’s domestic immigration rules. More than 950,000 applications have been received, and more than 850,000 people have already been granted status under the scheme.

The noble Lord, Lord Oates, asked about pre-settled status for those who applied for settled status. We know that 35% of people have been granted pre-settled status, but we do not know what percentage of them applied for settled status. I stress that no application has been refused. I think that is significant when we are at nearly one-third of the figure.

I share the natural scepticism of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, about government IT schemes —I am not sure I am allowed to say that, but it is too late—but this case may be the exception that proves the rule, based on the data we have so far. She also asked about being able to use an iPhone. One can complete the online application on a smartphone, tablet, computer or laptop. The identity verification app, which I think the noble Baroness was referring to, is currently available only on Android devices, but my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has confirmed that it will be available on Apple devices later this year.

The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and my noble friend Lord Cormack talked about levels of anxiety—I think my noble friend used the term “peace of mind”—about one’s ability to stay in this country. Currently a straightforward application is being dealt with in between one and four days. I acknowledge the anxiety that people might feel, but the process is speedy. I am slightly anxious that the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, put the Government in a no-win situation. We are doing it quickly, but she rightly raised a question about whether automation carries risks with it. I think we would prefer to err on the side of a speedy response for those who are waiting for one.

A number of noble Lords asked about help for vulnerable individuals. We are committed to helping vulnerable individuals to obtain their status under the scheme. We have awarded up to £9 million to 57 voluntary and community-sector organisations across the UK to help us reach the estimated 200,000 vulnerable or at-risk EU citizens and help them apply. We are also working closely with local authorities and others to ensure we reach looked-after children, who were mentioned by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Rochester and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. Local authorities are empowered to apply on behalf of looked-after children and they have been granted sufficient funding to have the capacity to do so. Additional support is available to those who do not have the appropriate access, skills or confidence to apply online.

There has been much debate about physical evidence of settled status. Those granted status under the scheme will be given a secure digital status as part of moving to the system of digital by default. EU citizens will not be issued with a physical document. Unlike many EU countries, the UK does not require people to carry an identity document. Those granted status under the scheme can access this via a secure online service. They can control who they wish to share that information with to demonstrate their status and to exercise their rights. We believe that digital status is more secure. It cannot be lost, stolen or tampered with and is more easily used by people with some disabilities.

In common with the approach advocated by some groups, the Bill would create a declaratory system. As all noble Lords noted, the Government do not agree that conferring leave to remain automatically, by statute, under a declaratory system is the right approach to securing the status of resident EU citizens and their families. A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, touched on the experience of members of the Windrush generation. They were granted indefinite leave to remain but without the means of proving that status. We are very anxious not to make the same mistake again. We are concerned that even if we ran a scheme in which, as the Home Affairs Select Committee recommended, obtaining proof of status was conferred by law with an option to apply for physical documentation, it could cause confusion among employers and service providers and impede EU citizens’ access to benefits and services to which they are entitled.

The Government’s approach provides resident EEA and Swiss citizens and their family members with clarity and certainty about their status here. We have already confirmed that, deal or no deal, the EU settlement scheme will continue to operate. I hope that helps to reassure my noble friends Lord Attlee and Lady Altmann, who expressed concerns about this. The Government have made it clear that anyone with reasonable grounds for missing the deadline will be allowed to make a late application.

The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, was concerned about the risk to children. The spirit of the Government’s work in this area is that of creating a fair and compassionate system—we are not seeking to criminalise children.

The Government recognise the invaluable cultural, social and economic contributions that EU citizens make to the UK and as part of many of our families. Quite rightly, we have made generous provision to protect the status of those who have made the UK their home. I of course understand that the Bill seeks to protect those people. However, as I have tried to set out, the mechanism whereby it seeks to do that is not one the Government can support, as we believe that it could create difficulties for those same people and their families in the future. We continue to believe that the EU settlement scheme provides an inclusive route for EU citizens to secure their lives in the UK.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Minister made much of the fact that EU citizens could be in difficulties if they did not exercise treaty rights. Can she undertake to write to us explaining why Clause 2(1)(f) does not provide protection?

[Baroness Barran]

I am happy to do that.

Brexit: Stability of the Union

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Thursday 17th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, this debate has demonstrated just how timely and important it is that the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, introduced it. We should all be grateful to him for that. The debate so far has emphasised that we are in a bit of mess with our constitution. There has been a lot of piecemeal, pragmatic activity in our recent history, but where has been the sense of strategy? What is the objective towards which we are working? Where is the road map?

I have an overriding conviction that the most challenging aspect of political life is that we live in a world that is totally interdependent. The challenge for government and political leadership is to come to terms with that and to find a way in which we enable the British people to play a constructive and full part in meeting that reality. It seems to me that anything else is escapism from fundamental reality. I also accept that, in the impersonal and technological age in which we live, in which the very thought of global interdependence is intimidating to so many people, there is a yearning for identity. What has gone wrong is that we see these two things in conflict. They are not. We should encourage a sense of identity and look for ways in which people can find their identity.

The next challenge is for leadership to explain that there is no way we can find a successful part in the world, or have a stable world, simply on the basis of identity. We have to co-operate, and the challenge now is to see how these people with different identities come together and work in the interests of humanity. That is the challenge which has been brought home by our agonising over Europe.

What is this identity? We have to be honest with ourselves. I am conscious and glad that I am a Scot and English. My mother was a Scot and my father was English. It is interesting that they came together in an international context. They always said that learning to bring their two cultures together in their personal life was part of understanding the challenge I have just described.

I come down in favour of a convention on our constitution in which we can give strategic consideration to all these matters and see how far what we have shapes up to the challenge and how we might make it better. I know that people who look at and talk about this matter have an anxiety—it has come out in the debate—first, about the English dimension and the fact that the English, cussedly, do not seem to have an English identity and, secondly, that England is so large. A regional approach that gave real significance and political structures to regions within England would help resolve that issue.

Living in Cumbria for the past 25 years—having been very much part of the south-east before that—has demonstrated to me that people have a strong Cumbrian identity which can be related to a northern identity. These are the kinds of issues which would come out, and with which we could begin to grapple, in a convention.

I end with an anecdote. Immediately after the referendum my younger grandson, who was then 13, coming up to 14, rang me in an activated frame of mind because they had had in his comprehensive school a mock referendum and 80% had voted in favour of remain. He was struck by this and said to me, “Grandpa, I want to ask you a question. Was your mother Scottish?”. He had not known her; she had died before he was born. I said, “She certainly was Scottish”. She had become very much part of England during the war and so on, but she was Scottish. He said, “I thought so. Will you give me a promise that if Scotland goes independent and remains committed to staying in the European Union you will immediately apply for dual nationality?”.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Perhaps I might ask the noble Lord to finish.

[Lord Judd]

I accept that. Thank you.

I thought about it a great deal and decided that I would have no hesitation in such a situation in applying for dual nationality. We cannot escape the interdependence.